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When fear doesn't workFollow

#1 Oct 03 2007 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I've just started PvP and arenas. Yesterday I got beat to death by a warrior during a 3V3. Fear had no effect on him. I have problems with warriors and rogues, so if they get to me I'm dead. Anybody want to share their tips on dealing with these two classes. I would appreciate it.
#2 Oct 03 2007 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Seduce with the succy.
#3 Oct 03 2007 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
Move a lot. Have a healthstone ready. Try SL/SL maybe - and drain them while they whack at you. Save your deathcoil for just the right moment - some of their resists are to fear but not horror (or ... used to be - who knows now?).

Learn to recognize when war has gone into "fear immune" mode. Kite him - CoEx, click out of ham and run.

Reapply CoEx if he clicks out of it, but be ready for intercept.

Mostly get very defensive - SL, good hp's, high resiliance.

By move around, there is a way to fake meleers out - which sometimes works, sometimes doesn't - you try to stay out of their forward-facing melee zone - deprive htem of as many chances to hit you as you can, while your dots and pets chisel away at them.

High sp dam helps there, too.

If it's the ham / stun stuff that gets you, become a FAP addict (free action potion).

When the Rogue cleans off all the dots, learn to count ... bleh, now I can't remember if its 6 or 9 seconds of virtual spell immunity they have. Don't try recasting - run from them - circle, jink strafe - try to fake them. Strafe left a hair then revers and strafe right. Sometimes works wonders. GL
#4 Oct 03 2007 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If it's the ham / stun stuff that gets you, become a FAP addict (free action potion).


Can't use in arena

Warriors have a few ways to go temporarily immune to fear. Rogues have CloS which wipes all dots and makes them resist 90% of magic effects for 5 seconds.

Theres also diminishing returns, which you have to understand (10 seconds, 5 seconds, 2.5 seconds, immune, with a 15 second reset from the last fear). Ideally you're not fearing the target more then twice, then you have ways to not use fear for 15 seconds so the DR resets.

Warriors can talent into deathwish, which makes them do 20% more damage and go immune to fear for 30 seconds, but they take 5% more damage. Still most warriors will pop deathwish before fighting you as a warlock, so you can't rely on fear at all in most cases. They can also pop berserker rage from berserker stance, which most warriors will fight you in, again making them immune to fear, but this is only 10 seconds with a 30 minute cooldown. I believe you won't see this in arena, I forget the cooldown timer restriction, I think its 10 minutes. Recklessness is another 30 minute cooldown from zerker stance, making most attacks crit, becoming immune to fear for 15 seconds, but taking 20% more damage.

My best advice is to duel....alot. Hang outside your major city for hours and duel anyone who's level 70, over and over and over. Dueling is great practice for learning other classes. Find out what abilities they're using and how to counter them. Read up on other classes, read their basic PVP strategies. Read how they would beat you as a warlock.

To beat a rogue, I lay enough dots, fear and drain tank, this forces them to cloak of shadows earlier then they like. You need to run away for 5 seconds, then 180 deathcoil (count down in your head). You also get some visual indicators, their character model turns a dark shade of grey, and all your dots are wiped off the target. The second you see those dots get wiped start running, because thats 5 seconds you can't do anything. If you have tons of mana you could try spamming curse of exhaustion a few times, it has a 10% chance to hit still, but I just run. YOU NEED DISTANCE BEFORE THEY POP IT. If you're crip poisoned and they're right on your back, you can run but they're right behind you stabbing you. Its best to force them into CloS when they're either feared or being kited with CoEx. Rogues are a tough fight, try to duel 50 rogues with this advice though and you will get much better against them.

With warriors, you need to maintain huge amounts of distance on them. Curse of exhaustion is 36 yards, theres no reason to PVP without CoEx and grim reach. CoEx -> 36 yards, intercept -> 25 yards. If they get close enough to intercept->hamstring and you're trinkets blown, gg. Kite them for a while with dots and CoEx, then just turn around and drain tank them. When they pummel (locking your shadow tree), immediately switch to 2-3 searing pains until your shadow tree comes back. Again, go duel 50 warriors and you'll get alot better.

Thats my best advice, go fight a million duels then do it some more.
#5 Oct 03 2007 at 11:39 PM Rating: Decent
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2,754 posts
in arena almost all warriors will be Mortal strike/deathwish spec, so they can ,almost without pause, chain make themselves immune to fear for 50seconds. 55 if they're undead so yeah, fear is near enough 100% useless vs warriors. rogues have to many ways to interupt our fear cast as well as being able to use cloak of LOL to almost 100% garantee spell resists on them for 4 seconds and then again if they're undead they can become immune for 5seconds (if the rogue is a horde then 90% of the time they'll be undead)

so yeah. you'll need to learn to live without fear. vs certain classes you generally don't bother casting it except for maybe after using shadowfury, felnub intercept stun, deathcoil or instant Howl of terror. trying to actually cast a spell, especially in arena is generally pretty useless
#6 Oct 04 2007 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
Right, I suggested FAP for pvp - not arena. The OP said both, so assumed it was not "just" arena.

But it is important to point out to OP that FAP (free action potion) doesn't work in arena (nor do most engi'd items - wearable ones work - goggles and guns - but ones you use on players, like netgun, do NOT work in arena - neither does tailored net).

I often separate my felguard from me in arena. Tell him to stay a short distance away - so he can intercept and stun. He can't do this if he's right next to you and you get charged out of nowhere. Some warriors literally ride over, hop off mount and charge you before you can do anything. But Felg intercepting only buys you a few seconds.

It does no good to stun a war if you don't "use" that moment right. That's a great time to get off a timed-cast spell. Do your instacasts when he's on you. Don't stun or fear him and waste your chance! Or run away from him, make it harder for him to get to you (note, he will get you - he can intercept (tho he may have to shift stance and/or wait for cooldown to do so)).

In arena, if a warrior is "on" you and immune to fear - I think you can deathcoil (which is a "horror" effect - and it might work (someone help me w/ this pls) - or howl of terror, also horror). Mostly get him insta-dotted and use what little relief you have, when he's off you, for longer casting spells (i.e. Felg's stun might be the time to immolate him - then do insta-casts).

But the thing is, w/ a war - you're going to be hamstrung - hard to move - w/ him chopping at you. You can say "I'm going down anyway, so I'll hurt them as much as I can first." This means putting your dots on all enemies before dying. If you're not geared well, this is sometimes all you can do.

That said, even hamstrung you can make things tough for the war by moving - strafing or running at him - so you are behind him or out of his melee range. If you have curse of ex, you can pop that - then click out of ham and try strafing off in an unexpected direction - or running through the war. I got this to work some recently in the PTR, but he will get you eventually. Again, what you do while you're running from him is important (although keeping him unable to melee you while your dots and pets chew at him is important).

Running through him is often a good tactic, especially if you're a gnome. Or even better, jink right or left, then run through him (or strafe opposite way). Sometimes on his screen (I think) your jink is "over reported" - he sees you go farther to the side than you really went. He then overcompensates (I've done this to many a meleer). Depends on his connection and his machine (I assume) - but you can take advantage of this (however, this borders on unfair - hm... will have to think about htis one).

Always make a healthstone - never forget to use it. Use it sooner rather than later.

Consider an SL SL build. This is going into demon for soul link and affliction for soul leach. You have 3 insta cast dots, one which heals you, and you have a good drain - which is hard for him to interupt (if you can get concentration aura from a pal on your side, I'm pretty sure it stacks w/ your talent - meaning your drain can't be interrupted). And you can just stand there draining him while he chops at you. Your 3 dots and pet (and nightfall procs) will hurt him - and you can win doing this. I tried it during the last ptr and found it to be very effective on wars and rogues. The idea is to tank the meleers; lower the damage they do to you as much as possible -- drain and leach back as much health as you can (Jenova and other regulars on this forum taught me this - they know the tactic much better).

Consider the succubus. I think they can still seduce fear-immune players. They have one chance to click out (an undead, two - undeads are hard to deal w/). You can use mods to see the other team before arena starts, or just go in w/ a lot of shards - oh - this is a good one. Summon VW first. As you enter combat, sac him - pop out whichever pet makes the most sense for the players you see - do the fast summon - and get to work. Between your damage shield from the sac and your healthstone, you can get a lot done.

Use terrain. Strafe-jump off the bridge after you've dotted up a war - make him look for you (again, sometimes in the heat of battle - he loses track of you when you move quickly and unexpectedly). Again, if he can't melee you, and your dots are pet are working on him - you help your chances a lot. War AND hunter on you? GEt behind a pillar - stop the hunter from shooting you. War getting healed? Force him to chase you out of sight from his healer. Stuff like that.

Rogue - again similar probs. You will be crip'd, so it's hard to kite them - unless you can use FA'd antivenom to get rid of it (at 70 i've never tried it - nor am I sure if it works in arena, tho bandages do).

Then, they clear off all your dots and have 5-8 seconds of 90% spell immunity. That's bad. What I do at this point ... it depends. Almost always I move - make it hard for the rogue to melee me. If I can't touch the rogue and I'm going to die, anyway, I often target other players and spam as many insta dots as I can. Other options are to whip out the VW and sac him (if fast summon is not on cooldown) - use healthstone (so easy to forget that) - and - I need to see if rogues in this state are 90% immune to WANDING (someone help me pls, if you know). Wanding is not always a good idea - but if the rogue is low on health and wanding works ... it's an option.

For arena you should be on vent (or the new talkie thing?) - coordinating w/ your teammates. Do you have someone healing you? You need to stay in range and sight of them. Often my job is to get healers or casters - feared and not healing. We can win even if the warrior kills me, provided I kept the healer from healing (or killed him).

Remember, arena is not dueling. I've only done real arena a few weeks now, so I'm not the person you want to be taking too much advice from. The above is certainly worth considering, though - has merits in certain situations. Practice practice practice. Do dummy arenas (non ranked fights) and practice. Get used to situations.

So much success in pvp/bg/arena depends on you knowing "quickly" how to do what changing situations require. The faster and more accurate you are, the better your chances. Knowing when the pal has bubbled and what to do when he does - getting a sense for when the bubble will end - knowing when to death coil - knowing when not to fear (he's immune) - learn all these things. There are tricks to it. Do you fight with a hunter? You have to learn when that frost mage has stepped on his trap - and when it's ice block. Are you playing w/ someone who cc's - learn not to break it. Learn when to banish - mage and shaman pets can be banished, too. But you don't always want to fool with it: sometimes casting more dps spells > wasting time banishing - esp. if the player that summoned that pet is about to go down, anyway. Learn which effects to click out of - and when - and which ones to endure. ANd so on and so on. So much comes from just doing it and getting a feel for what to do (and when).

Oh, if you have FH out, paranoia can help you spot stealthed rogues - but- you must be fast. Get them "in combat" fast, or they'll still sap/ambush/whatever you. Sometimes you just can't stop them from sapping - they got range now. But if you can knock one out of stealth, not only does he not get to sap/ambush you - he's often in front of his teammates - and your side can get a head start on him!

Also, popping a VW and saccing it can be a very powerful move. You can start fight w/ this (often they're on you - so it usually makes sense) - or save it for an emergency. Don't just stand there uselessly casting a shadowbolt when you can do something better. Think about what you're going to do while shielded - cast instacast spells? Maybe not. You can't be interrupted while shielded. It won't last long, but often you can get off a fear, non-instant howl, or shadowbolt, immo or incinerate. Then spam the insta casts when shield is off.

Anyway, hope that helped. GL - get good gear. I'm hearing that bg honor points, next patch, can be used to buy merciless gladiator stuff from arena gear. If this is true - best start saving up HPs. Do whatever bonus weekend is up - consider saving them. Merciless is not bad. You need resiliance, sta and sp dam.



#7 Oct 05 2007 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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513 posts
thanks for the advice. I'll try some of these and see how it goes.
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