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hit or damageFollow

#1 Oct 02 2007 at 8:07 PM Rating: Default
What would be better for raiding. 1091 damage and 50 hit rating, or 1010 damage and 124 hit rating.
#2 Oct 02 2007 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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without a doubt 1010 dmg and 124 hit.
50 hit rating is poor...
#3 Oct 03 2007 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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cancerous wrote:
without a doubt 1010 dmg and 124 hit.
50 hit rating is poor...


Agreed. This isn't even a close debate.
#4 Oct 03 2007 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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*warning* Math (maybe not completely correct math) to follow *warning*

Okay... let's look. I think spell hit vs lvl 73 mob and you as a lvl 70 caster (e.g. boss mob).

Base spell hit = 83%
Spell hit per percent = 12.6
Formula for % hit: (base hit % + hit %) = total hit%
Formula for average damage: (min damage + max damage) /2 = 719 for fireball
Formula for +damage: (+damage * spell damage coefficient) = 1254.65 for 1091 spell damage, 1161.5 for 1010 spell damage
*spell damage coefficient is used for fireball
Crit = assumed 25% crit
Average damage per cast: (average damage + spell damage) * ( 1 - Crit) + (average damage + spell damage) * (Crit) * (2.10)

For damage at 1091, average damage per cast: 2516
For damage at 1010, average damage per cast: 2398

Actual damage = damage * spell hit
2516 * 86.97 = 2188
2398 * 92.84 = 2226

So, you net about 37 damage more from the +hit than you do from +damage

If you're like me, the 1091 damage *looks* better, because you get bigger numbers from your crits, but you lose damage over the long haul. I'm glad I did this little exercise, because now I'm going to look at my gem placement (right now I use almost all red +damage gems...)... Maybe the +hit +damage would be better... I'll work it out.
#5 Oct 03 2007 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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1,047 posts
Good mathing ktangent, but you could just use a calculator such as

http://tc.awenet.com/index.php
#6 Oct 03 2007 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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1,262 posts
lol...

I have a new invention I'm working on now as well.... it is round and you can put an axle between 2 of them and stuff moves....

I'm calling it the ktangent's round thingy... sounds good, eh?
#7 Oct 03 2007 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
Yeah cuz, Ktangent, you do realize that 50 hit rating in any raid and most 70 dungeons (heroic as well) will cause your spells to be resisted most of the time, not to mention that you're counting in crits, which will also be completely resisted to 0 dmg.
remember, 0 x 10000000000 = still 0
50 spell hit rating is crappy for PVE, very, very crappy, and for raiding, i'd say even more so.
#8 Oct 03 2007 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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wwcool... I don't have 50 hit rating... the OP does and was talking about it in his original post.
#9 Oct 03 2007 at 12:42 PM Rating: Default
damage -_-
#10 Oct 03 2007 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
wwcool... I don't have 50 hit rating... the OP does and was talking about it in his original post.


I know, but really though, my point was that there's a huge difference (maybe not in calculation) in gameplay with 120 rating vrs 50 rating, and 81 spell dmg.
#11 Oct 03 2007 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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794 posts
OK a bit of explaination needed here

For a mage DPS is dealt only when your spells hit.

with 50 hit rating, your looking at a miss rate on boss mobs (which are the most important for a raid) of around 13%.
Lets assume that miss rate is a statistic and not a chance means for 100 firballs 13 of them will be complete resists. This makes KT's theory very plausible.
The real mechanics however is like this, every fireball has a 13% chance to miss given that you have a 80+% chance to hit it. Inherently, you can never ensure that you will hit all your spells as the game forces 1% miss.
This is based on the 3 outcomes rule a number of people believe is the way WoW does it combat calculations. The same applies for melee dmg. Each swing can either crit, hit or miss. Only one out of three, no such thing as crit but miss....
glancing blows, parrys and blocks belong to another set of 3 outcomes that has to do with damage migitation. Same applies for spells, each spell (binary ones) can only be partially resisted, totally resisted or missed by the caster. All are reflected under the combat log as "resist".

As a mage you need to balance your stat around
getting your spells to hit
making your spells hurt
making your spells hurt really really bad (crit).

for a raiding mage, spell misses hurt really bad since your nukes are casted. DPS is serverly lowered by misses, since you wasted all that time casting a missed spell and also you wasted mana. OOM mages deal ZERO dps. Less missed spells means more bang for your buck and you will perform better.
This is the reason why I would cut my damage down to crit more to the range of dropping 10-15 spelldamge for say 14 more crit rating. Any more spelldamage dropped is detrimental since I crit more often but for less. Spellhit also plays a important part. If there is more spell hit to be had then more is better. Sure I drop crit for that but I can always make it up with less misses.

item budget wise, crit rating, hit rating both cost the same so its really down to you and your play style. My raid leader would not be pleased with me if I can crit l70 mobs like a **** but can't get enough hits in on Gruul.
#12 Oct 03 2007 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
revrendboy wrote:
damage -_-


Not for raiding... it has been stated over and over that for raiding the best dps increase that a mage can get is +hit untill they hit around 164 (and have elemental precision talented), to make up for the 16% chance to miss (+1 automatic miss %). After that I would stack up on +dmg and then +crit but that can be debatable. I find that if I am around 35% chance to crit, I would stack on +dmg a bit more, but if you have the option to do so, I would put on potent noble topaz gems to get a bit of both (as long as you are still hit capped).
#13 Oct 03 2007 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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ktangent wrote:
I'm glad I did this little exercise, because now I'm going to look at my gem placement (right now I use almost all red +damage gems...)... Maybe the +hit +damage would be better... I'll work it out.


The only reason I like all red gems is because they make it easier to make a Mystical Skyfire Diamond work for ya than using all oranges.
#14 Oct 04 2007 at 5:03 AM Rating: Default
Yeah that is what i am going to do, replace all my +9 damage gems with the +8 hit rating gems. And do a heroic UB to get to exalted and get that ring that you get from them from being exalted.

Thanks for the advice.
#15 Oct 09 2007 at 4:36 AM Rating: Decent
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One nice thing about arcane up-and-coming (with the next patch's arcane meditation assistance) is that a tier 1 talent helps with +hit (afaik)...

Arcane focus is a 10% chance for the enemies not to resist your arcane spells. I think this means that instead of stacking 164 +hit for fire or frost, that you only have to stack 88 +hit for all your arcane spells? Maybe arcane even becomes viable without T5 2 piece bonus?
#16 Oct 09 2007 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
Well I now have a 135 hit rating, and 1007 damage, (turns out I can't add or subtract). So now my question is, is 135 to hit rating vaible for raids, or would it be best to max it out.

And 202 would be the max hit rating I can get if I stay deep fire, right?

Edited, Oct 9th 2007 3:44pm by tuvollation
#17 Oct 09 2007 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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tuvollation wrote:
Well I now have a 135 hit rating, and 1017 damage, (turns out I can't add or subtract). So now my question is, is 135 to hit rating vaible for raids, or would it be best to max it out.

And 202 would be the max hit rating I can get if I stay deep fire, right?


Should always work on maxing it out, but don't make silly tradeoffs like 20 damage for 2 hit rating.

The cap is 164 if you have 3/3 Elemental Precision (which you should).
#18 Oct 09 2007 at 10:53 AM Rating: Default
Sweet only need to get to 164 hit rating, shouldn't be too hard. All I have to do is wait for my tier 4 pants to drop or get those trousers (socket it with veiled noble topaz) from kara and I should be right around the hit cap.

And yeah, I do have elemental precision.
#19 Oct 09 2007 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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tuvollation wrote:
Sweet only need to get to 164 hit rating, shouldn't be too hard. All I have to do is wait for my tier 4 pants to drop or get those trousers (socket it with veiled noble topaz) from kara and I should be right around the hit cap.

And yeah, I do have elemental precision.



Spellstrike pants are better than either one of those.
#20 Oct 09 2007 at 11:50 AM Rating: Default
True spellstrike are probably better, but my mana and hp are low, 6773 hp and 8066 mana (self buffed) and I would like to get more mana, which spellstrike doesn't offer, which my tier 4 and trial-fire trousers offer. But I don't know which would help maximise my dps the most.

Here is my armory for good measuer, hope the link works:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bleeding+Hollow&n=Lokao
#21 Oct 09 2007 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
I would see if you can get the rep ring from CE, that should make you very close to maxing out your +spellhit.
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