I have a 70 tank feral....Health and armor concern?
My questions are....are my health and armor under average at 70.
I just got the key to karazhan...but in black morass i needed a very good priest.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Azuremyst&n=Bostontj
In bearform without buff---> HP : 9400 (around there)
Armor: 11340 (around there)
......Somebody once mentioned a druid having up to 18K health is that possible if u have tier 5 gears?
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Above Average druid?Follow
Your HP is okay, but your armor is really bad. I remembered having 20k armor even before entering Karazhan.
Fully buffed, easily. Not buffed, no.
Is that seriously your tanking gear?
Fully buffed, easily. Not buffed, no.
Is that seriously your tanking gear?
15 posts
at the moment yes....is that bad lol?
been leveling my 63 hunter....so yea same gears for a while.
Do you have any suggestions of where i could get new gears (with exception to AH)?? that would be really helpful.
been leveling my 63 hunter....so yea same gears for a while.
Do you have any suggestions of where i could get new gears (with exception to AH)?? that would be really helpful.
Two-Hand:
Feral Staff of Lashing
Staff of Natural Fury
Greatstaff of the Leviathan
Earthwarden
Dreamer's Dragonstaff
Braxxis Staff of Slumber
Idol:
Idol of Ursoc
Idol of Feral Shadows
Idol of Savagery
Idol of the Claw
Helm:
Stylin' Purple Hat
Cowl of the Guiltless
Cobrascale Hood
Exorcist's Wyrmhide Helm
Savage Mask of the Lynx Lord
Chest:
Heavy Clefthoof Vest
Wastewalker Tunic
Nickwinkle's Harness Experiment
Chestguard of the Talon
Boots:
Heavy Clefthoof Boots
Supple Leather Boots
Nimble-foot Treads
Spymistress's Boots
Hands:
Verdant Gloves
Wastewalker Gloves
Windslayer Wraps
Gloves of the Unbound
Legs:
Heavy Clefthoof Leggings
Leggings of the Sly
Warpscale Leggings
Ash Tempered Legguards
Shoulders:
Cleansed Fel Pauldrons
Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps
Wastewalker Shoulderpads
The Dreamer's Shoulderpads
Waist:
Manimal's Cinch
Epoch's Whispering Cinch
Socrethar's Girdle
Shadowstalker's Sash
Wrists:
Umberhowl's Collar
Shackles of Quagmirran
Nightfall Wristguards
Ruuan Weald Wristguards
Back:
Bogstrok Scale Cloak
Resolute Cape
Cloak of the Valiant Defender
Cloak of Eternity
Rings:
Ring of Unyielding Force
Violet Signet of the Great Protector
Violet Signet
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
Band of Impenetrable Defenses
Soulpriest's Ring of Resolve
Neck:
Necklace of the Juggernaut
Mark of the Ravenguard
Strength of the Untamed
Maladaar's Blessed Chaplet
Trinkets:
Adamantine Figurine
Argussian Compass
Hourglass of the Unraveller
Regal Protectorate
Charm of Alacrity
-----
Try to get some of these, easiest (just tiresome) would be Heavy Clefthoof Set, Earthwarden or Braxxis, Purple Hat, Manimal.
Feral Staff of Lashing
Staff of Natural Fury
Greatstaff of the Leviathan
Earthwarden
Dreamer's Dragonstaff
Braxxis Staff of Slumber
Idol:
Idol of Ursoc
Idol of Feral Shadows
Idol of Savagery
Idol of the Claw
Helm:
Stylin' Purple Hat
Cowl of the Guiltless
Cobrascale Hood
Exorcist's Wyrmhide Helm
Savage Mask of the Lynx Lord
Chest:
Heavy Clefthoof Vest
Wastewalker Tunic
Nickwinkle's Harness Experiment
Chestguard of the Talon
Boots:
Heavy Clefthoof Boots
Supple Leather Boots
Nimble-foot Treads
Spymistress's Boots
Hands:
Verdant Gloves
Wastewalker Gloves
Windslayer Wraps
Gloves of the Unbound
Legs:
Heavy Clefthoof Leggings
Leggings of the Sly
Warpscale Leggings
Ash Tempered Legguards
Shoulders:
Cleansed Fel Pauldrons
Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps
Wastewalker Shoulderpads
The Dreamer's Shoulderpads
Waist:
Manimal's Cinch
Epoch's Whispering Cinch
Socrethar's Girdle
Shadowstalker's Sash
Wrists:
Umberhowl's Collar
Shackles of Quagmirran
Nightfall Wristguards
Ruuan Weald Wristguards
Back:
Bogstrok Scale Cloak
Resolute Cape
Cloak of the Valiant Defender
Cloak of Eternity
Rings:
Ring of Unyielding Force
Violet Signet of the Great Protector
Violet Signet
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
Band of Impenetrable Defenses
Soulpriest's Ring of Resolve
Neck:
Necklace of the Juggernaut
Mark of the Ravenguard
Strength of the Untamed
Maladaar's Blessed Chaplet
Trinkets:
Adamantine Figurine
Argussian Compass
Hourglass of the Unraveller
Regal Protectorate
Charm of Alacrity
-----
Try to get some of these, easiest (just tiresome) would be Heavy Clefthoof Set, Earthwarden or Braxxis, Purple Hat, Manimal.
double post
Edited, Sep 29th 2007 12:00pm by Sloniah
Edited, Sep 29th 2007 12:00pm by Sloniah
Here is a post that I did for my guild with some help from this forum.
If you look at my gear you can get a gauge of how far be hind we both are. I'm at like 10k health and.... about the same armor as a 70 war -_-; Not at home ATM so I can't say how much armor I have of the top of my head.
Edited, Sep 29th 2007 12:03pm by Sloniah
Quote:
WARNING! THIS IS A LONG OF A READ!
Now that i put the waring out there I have NOTHING to do at work so I made a list of gear for 70ish druids to get. This is heavily drawn from a list that Dubois helped me to make and is made with tanking in mind. I'm going to make this list as short as I can but a Full set is still long >.<
Head:Stylin' Purple Hat
Made by 350 Leatherworking with
Heavy Knothide Leather (6)
Cobra Scales (2)
Primal Shadow (8)
Zhevra Leather (4)
Rune Thread (3)
Chest:Heavy Clefthoof Vest
Made by 360 Leather Workers with
Heavy Knothide Leather (6)
Thick Clefthoof Leather (40)
Primal Earth (4)
Rune Thread (2)
Legs:Heavy Clefthoof Leggings
Made by 355 Leather Workers with
Heavy Knothide Leather (6)
Thick Clefthoof Leather (34)
Primal Earth (4)
Rune Thread (2)
Boots:Heavy Clefthoof Boots
Made by 355 leather workers with
Heavy Knothide Leather (4)
Thick Clefthoof Leather (20)
Primal Earth (4)
Rune Thread (2)
Back:Thoriumweave Cloak
From Mechanar dropped by Mechano-Lord Capacitus.
17.1% drop rate
Belt(s):Manimal's Cinch
From the Quest Enraged Spirits of Air [68]
Also see....
Belt of Natural Power
Made by 375 Leather workers with <---Really End Game
Nether Vortex (2)
Heavy Knothide Leather (4)
Primal Life (10)
Rune Thread (2)
Primal Air (10)
The pattern drops all over Serpentshrine Cavern, Leotheras the Blind has the highest drop rate for it though.
Shoulders:Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps
Drops in Black Morass from Chrono Lord Deja
16.5% drop rate (normal and heroic)
Side Note; these have the most armor on any leather shoulder that I can find.
Wrists:Umberhowl's Collar
From the Quest the Cipher of Damnation - The Third Fragment Recovered
(8th and final part of the quest chain)
Glove(s):Verdant Gloves
From the Quest Akama's Promise [70]
Wastewalker Gloves
Dropped by Warchief Kargath Bladefist.
11.9% drop rate
Neck(s):Necklace of the Deep
Made by 340 Jewelcrafting with
Mote of Water (3)
Jaggal Pearl (10)
Shadow Pearl
Mark of the Ravenguard
From the quest Brother Against Brother[69]
EDIT: This is a much better neck than first posted. Thank Hikarii for this one.
Ring(s):Violet Signet
From the Quest Path of the Violet Protector [70] <---End Game
NOTE: This ring gets better as your Violet Eye reputation increases.
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
From Old Hillsbrad Foothills from Lieutenant Drake.
16% drop rate
Trinket(s):Mark of Tyranny
From the Quest for the Horde! [60 raid]
Adamantine Figurine
From Shadow Labyrinth dropped by Blackheart the Inciter.
11.6% drop rate
Badge of Tenacity <---End Game
Note: It will take some grinding to get this. This is how:
To acquire this item you need to kill lots of mobs in Ogri'La for a random drop of a Depleted Badge.
It is a very rare drop. When you finally get one, combine it with 50 Apexis Shards to create the trinket.
By the time you get the Badge you will probably have well over 50 Shards...
Weapon(s):Earthwarden
Requires Cenarion Expedition - Exalted / COST: Gp265 Sp68 CP 17
Till you get that...
Staff of Beasts
From the Quest The Ring of Blood: The Final Challenge[68]. Last of a six quest chain.
A Thank you to Rarebeast, Anathor, Hikarii, Dubois and Norellicus
Now that i put the waring out there I have NOTHING to do at work so I made a list of gear for 70ish druids to get. This is heavily drawn from a list that Dubois helped me to make and is made with tanking in mind. I'm going to make this list as short as I can but a Full set is still long >.<
Head:Stylin' Purple Hat
Made by 350 Leatherworking with
Heavy Knothide Leather (6)
Cobra Scales (2)
Primal Shadow (8)
Zhevra Leather (4)
Rune Thread (3)
Chest:Heavy Clefthoof Vest
Made by 360 Leather Workers with
Heavy Knothide Leather (6)
Thick Clefthoof Leather (40)
Primal Earth (4)
Rune Thread (2)
Legs:Heavy Clefthoof Leggings
Made by 355 Leather Workers with
Heavy Knothide Leather (6)
Thick Clefthoof Leather (34)
Primal Earth (4)
Rune Thread (2)
Boots:Heavy Clefthoof Boots
Made by 355 leather workers with
Heavy Knothide Leather (4)
Thick Clefthoof Leather (20)
Primal Earth (4)
Rune Thread (2)
Back:Thoriumweave Cloak
From Mechanar dropped by Mechano-Lord Capacitus.
17.1% drop rate
Belt(s):Manimal's Cinch
From the Quest Enraged Spirits of Air [68]
Also see....
Belt of Natural Power
Made by 375 Leather workers with <---Really End Game
Nether Vortex (2)
Heavy Knothide Leather (4)
Primal Life (10)
Rune Thread (2)
Primal Air (10)
The pattern drops all over Serpentshrine Cavern, Leotheras the Blind has the highest drop rate for it though.
Shoulders:Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps
Drops in Black Morass from Chrono Lord Deja
16.5% drop rate (normal and heroic)
Side Note; these have the most armor on any leather shoulder that I can find.
Wrists:Umberhowl's Collar
From the Quest the Cipher of Damnation - The Third Fragment Recovered
(8th and final part of the quest chain)
Glove(s):Verdant Gloves
From the Quest Akama's Promise [70]
Wastewalker Gloves
Dropped by Warchief Kargath Bladefist.
11.9% drop rate
Neck(s):Necklace of the Deep
Made by 340 Jewelcrafting with
Mote of Water (3)
Jaggal Pearl (10)
Shadow Pearl
Mark of the Ravenguard
From the quest Brother Against Brother[69]
EDIT: This is a much better neck than first posted. Thank Hikarii for this one.
Ring(s):Violet Signet
From the Quest Path of the Violet Protector [70] <---End Game
NOTE: This ring gets better as your Violet Eye reputation increases.
Iron Band of the Unbreakable
From Old Hillsbrad Foothills from Lieutenant Drake.
16% drop rate
Trinket(s):Mark of Tyranny
From the Quest for the Horde! [60 raid]
Adamantine Figurine
From Shadow Labyrinth dropped by Blackheart the Inciter.
11.6% drop rate
Badge of Tenacity <---End Game
Note: It will take some grinding to get this. This is how:
To acquire this item you need to kill lots of mobs in Ogri'La for a random drop of a Depleted Badge.
It is a very rare drop. When you finally get one, combine it with 50 Apexis Shards to create the trinket.
By the time you get the Badge you will probably have well over 50 Shards...
Weapon(s):Earthwarden
Requires Cenarion Expedition - Exalted / COST: Gp265 Sp68 CP 17
Till you get that...
Staff of Beasts
From the Quest The Ring of Blood: The Final Challenge[68]. Last of a six quest chain.
A Thank you to Rarebeast, Anathor, Hikarii, Dubois and Norellicus
If you look at my gear you can get a gauge of how far be hind we both are. I'm at like 10k health and.... about the same armor as a 70 war -_-; Not at home ATM so I can't say how much armor I have of the top of my head.
Edited, Sep 29th 2007 12:03pm by Sloniah
Come on, Staff of Beasts is horrible... Get the Braxxis at least, or if you can, Staff of Natural Fury. Both can usually be found on AH, though they are frightfully expensive.
Unless the socket bonus is amazing, stamina (or agi/stam) gems are the way to go.
The list I made was a 'things you should have or have better than' kind of a base line if you will. I put Staff of Beasts because its relativaly easy to get. Avalability was a prioraty in this list so some of the quality of the gear had to suffer.
OP: Right now, at 69 in bear and self buffed only, I have about 14k 12k armor and just over 10k 11k hp (guessing from caster stats on my armory page in tank gear), so yeah your armor could use some work.
Re: That armor list...it's decent, but Braxxis is definitely better than Staff of Beasts :x
And I wouldn't call it expensive or rare/inaccessible either, at least on my server >.>;
Edit: I'm in bear form and tank gear on armory right now, so you can see my official stats.
Edited, Oct 2nd 2007 12:31am by Norellicus
Re: That armor list...it's decent, but Braxxis is definitely better than Staff of Beasts :x
And I wouldn't call it expensive or rare/inaccessible either, at least on my server >.>;
Edit: I'm in bear form and tank gear on armory right now, so you can see my official stats.
Edited, Oct 2nd 2007 12:31am by Norellicus
Sloniah wrote:
I put Staff of Beasts because its relativaly easy to get. Avalability was a priority in this list so some of the quality of the gear had to suffer.
Staff of Beasts is a great DPS staff you can get at 65 through the relatively easy Ring of Blood set of quests, but as Norellicus and others said Braxxis Staff of Slumber is infinitely better for tanking with 550 armor and +39 stamina. As far as Bloodthunder's comment about Braxxis and Staff of Natural Fury both being "frightfully expensive" at least on my server there's almost always at least one Braxxis staff for sale--usually two or three--and it sells for 30-60 gold. Be sure to check for it regularly and buy it when you approach or hit level 64. Natural Fury, now THAT is exorbitantly spendy.
Personally I think it's awesome that you can easily get Staff of Beasts for DPS at 65 and Braxxis for tanking at 64. Those will both last you to 70 and beyond, and are therefore well worth the expense of +35 agility.
It's definitely worth putting +35 agi on braxxis unless you really plan to grind CE rep hard. On Staff of Beasts I'm not so sure, there are quite a lot of easily accessible upgrades, in particular the Fleshling Simulation Staff which is a quest reward at 70, or the staff from Bota (or even Earthwarden). I thought I was grinding fast enough between lvl 65 and 70 not to spend all the money on the +35 agi enchant on Staff of Beasts - rather put that towards the epic flight form :)
Grind CE rep ^_^ there are always a few people waiting to do the heroic instances there. and more than enough quests to get to revered with a bit of extra instancing.
I've got 35 agi on my Braxxis until I get 70 geared and find the time to run a dozen or so Steamvaults.
But a word to the wise for upcoming druids that want to be tanks: I would strongly advise you to follow the CE rep guide on wowwiki for the easiest trip.
Edited, Oct 3rd 2007 9:07am by Norellicus
But a word to the wise for upcoming druids that want to be tanks: I would strongly advise you to follow the CE rep guide on wowwiki for the easiest trip.
Edited, Oct 3rd 2007 9:07am by Norellicus
anathor wrote:
It's definitely worth putting +35 agi on braxxis unless you really plan to grind CE rep hard. On Staff of Beasts I'm not so sure, there are quite a lot of easily accessible upgrades, in particular the Fleshling Simulation Staff which is a quest reward at 70, or the staff from Bota (or even Earthwarden). I thought I was grinding fast enough between lvl 65 and 70 not to spend all the money on the +35 agi enchant on Staff of Beasts - rather put that towards the epic flight form :)
Good call, Anathor. You rock. Man I love this forum.
I was actually coming back on to correct myself, as last night I did some research and found three upgrades to Staff of Beasts, and I was actually mid-way through both quest chains already. Duh.
I actually threw +35 agi on my Braxxis staff the other night and would have mistakenly done the same to my Staff of Beasts, but didn't have the mats on me. Thank god. : )
Anyway, here's the three pre-Kara upgrades in order of ease of obtainability.
Fleshling Simulation Staff, http://thottbot.com/i30010
+27 Strength
+27 Agility
+27 Stamina
+26 Hit rating
+361 Feral AP
+17 feral combat skill
Definitely the easiest to get...it's the reward to a 6-step quest chain, http://thottbot.com/q10339, and I've solo'd all but the last step. Easy peasy.
Wildcaller, http://thottbot.com/i31009
+45 Strength
+24 Agility
+361 Feral AP
+20 Feral Combat Skill
Better for pure DPS than Fleshling staff, (493 to 452 attack power by my math) but a little harder to get cuz its at the end of a chain that involves at least a Shadow Labs run (thru Blackheart the Inciter anyway) and one final supposedly 5-man group quest.
Dreamer's Dragonstaff, http://thottbot.com/?i=Dreamer%27s%20Dragonstaff
+46 Strength
+27 Agility
+28 Stamina
+423 Feral AP
DROOOOOOL!!! Combines the best of both of the above staves, but it's an uncommon drop off Thorgrin the Tender in Botanica, so it'd take some Bot farming and a bit of luck to get it.
I didn't see the answers here (nor in the sticky) but felt it was relevant for this thread...
I plan on taking my druid (currently 60) to 70 and being an offtank for raids and main tank for 5 mans.
I saw the above posts regarding armor and hp, but wasnt quite sure what was needed on other stats.
What is a good starting point to go into Kara for:
* Defense
* +Hit
I know that a majority of fights in Kara would mean I would not be offtanking and would be just another dps so my hit question is for both bear and kitty.
I am not quite sure how +hit works for druids. They dont really duel wield so I was wondering what the cap was.
Thank-you!
I plan on taking my druid (currently 60) to 70 and being an offtank for raids and main tank for 5 mans.
I saw the above posts regarding armor and hp, but wasnt quite sure what was needed on other stats.
What is a good starting point to go into Kara for:
* Defense
* +Hit
I know that a majority of fights in Kara would mean I would not be offtanking and would be just another dps so my hit question is for both bear and kitty.
I am not quite sure how +hit works for druids. They dont really duel wield so I was wondering what the cap was.
Thank-you!
for the +git I can't help you as I just don't know but IF you have survival of the fittest 3/3 then you only need 415 RATING (this is what pops up when you hover the curser over you defence in your defence tab) I would also look for at or near18-20k+ armor and 12-14k+ HP (this is what I'm after and w/o all the gear in my list I'm at 16K armor and 11k HP).
Now this MAY be a little high I'm not sure but I'm on par if not a lil above warrior armor/HP of same lvl and a bit better geared than me. Also "bear" in mind that I haven't raided at ALL this is my 1st toon so most of what I've learned I've learned here and from pure game play.
for DPS I would make a seperate set and bring it to the raid. Just inctance for rouge gear and you should be fine. take a look at this...Rouge Teir 6. That ONLY has 48 +hit now rouges prolly stack that *** deep as they can get it but you might not need it as much as one might think.
Now this MAY be a little high I'm not sure but I'm on par if not a lil above warrior armor/HP of same lvl and a bit better geared than me. Also "bear" in mind that I haven't raided at ALL this is my 1st toon so most of what I've learned I've learned here and from pure game play.
for DPS I would make a seperate set and bring it to the raid. Just inctance for rouge gear and you should be fine. take a look at this...Rouge Teir 6. That ONLY has 48 +hit now rouges prolly stack that *** deep as they can get it but you might not need it as much as one might think.
No no no.
415 Defense skill, or 156 rating, to become crit immune with 3/3 SotF (necessary for any serious bear).
You need +8.6% hit to cap your melee strikes against raid bosses. I don't know how much rating that is.
415 Defense skill, or 156 rating, to become crit immune with 3/3 SotF (necessary for any serious bear).
You need +8.6% hit to cap your melee strikes against raid bosses. I don't know how much rating that is.
Oops... I feel quite the fool now... -_-; thank you for the save Nore.
ether way there are your anwsers :)
ether way there are your anwsers :)
JeeBar, I used the Fleshling staff for quite a while. I got the Wildcaller only very late in the game (basically I had already cleared Kara before I did the final quest, not because it was too hard but because I somehow removed it from my quest log at some point). I got the Dreamer's staff by pure luck but didn't want to enchant it because at that point I was already eyeing the staff from Illhoof in Kara. Of course it didn't drop but in the meanwhile I got the Earthwarden, on which I promptly slapped the +35 agi enchant, and Earthwarden + 35 agi > Dreamer's with no enchant so I kept the Earthwarden as dps staff for a while as well. Only got Illhoof staff last week :D
I also liked Earthwarden a lot because of the 20 feral weapon skill which gives 3% hit and some chance to prevent the mob from dodging as well. In this respect Wildcaller is also very nice in terms of itemization.
Re: hit rating, apparently the number against lvl 73 mobs (and therefore all bosses) is 9%, of which 3% can be attained via 20 feral weapon skill (translates to 5 weapon skill) and then some hit rating (94 if I remember correctly to get 6%). But in any case I wouldn't worry too much about hit rating for my tanking gear, it's really something you can get on the side (e.g. glyph from cenarion expedition) and it's good enough like that. Also worth noting that 20 feral weapon skill on an item is the sweet spot at which you get 3% hit rating, less or more isn't as rewarding. Therefore Earthwarden, Wildcaller, Shattrath Leggings and the Shapeshifter's Signet are all very nice. Clefthoof Leggings (quest reward) falls a bit short of the sweet spot with only 18 feral weapon skill.
I also liked Earthwarden a lot because of the 20 feral weapon skill which gives 3% hit and some chance to prevent the mob from dodging as well. In this respect Wildcaller is also very nice in terms of itemization.
Re: hit rating, apparently the number against lvl 73 mobs (and therefore all bosses) is 9%, of which 3% can be attained via 20 feral weapon skill (translates to 5 weapon skill) and then some hit rating (94 if I remember correctly to get 6%). But in any case I wouldn't worry too much about hit rating for my tanking gear, it's really something you can get on the side (e.g. glyph from cenarion expedition) and it's good enough like that. Also worth noting that 20 feral weapon skill on an item is the sweet spot at which you get 3% hit rating, less or more isn't as rewarding. Therefore Earthwarden, Wildcaller, Shattrath Leggings and the Shapeshifter's Signet are all very nice. Clefthoof Leggings (quest reward) falls a bit short of the sweet spot with only 18 feral weapon skill.
Thanks for the responses guys. What about %dodge? What is acceptable to start Kara with?
Just to clarify the feral weapon skill - 20 points creates 3% chance to hit? And it maxes out at 20, hence if I get Earthwarden there is no point getting more?
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 4:27pm by Minxete
Just to clarify the feral weapon skill - 20 points creates 3% chance to hit? And it maxes out at 20, hence if I get Earthwarden there is no point getting more?
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 4:27pm by Minxete
You guys get Braxxis for 30-60g?!
More proof Shandris has no economy to speak of. I've seen 3, all somewhere between 600-1000g. I've just been waiting on my Earthwarden (12k/21k to Exalted!), because I'd really not blow that much just to replace the Braxxis with Earthwarden after a few more runs.
Also, with ~16k armor and 13k HP in my usual groups, I don't have to much of a problem tanking.
Edit: Also, Dreamer's Dragonstaff ftw :) Finally got it last night.
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 3:21pm by Riftaru
More proof Shandris has no economy to speak of. I've seen 3, all somewhere between 600-1000g. I've just been waiting on my Earthwarden (12k/21k to Exalted!), because I'd really not blow that much just to replace the Braxxis with Earthwarden after a few more runs.
Also, with ~16k armor and 13k HP in my usual groups, I don't have to much of a problem tanking.
Edit: Also, Dreamer's Dragonstaff ftw :) Finally got it last night.
Edited, Oct 9th 2007 3:21pm by Riftaru
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