Not a whine but...Follow

Shhh. You are like... telling him how rogues actually operate and stuff.

Tyrandor actually came to back me up.

I feel vindicated!

Fair enough.

But how can you not agree without reading? (Just kidding, of course).

its aready been noted the problems with shaos initial assessment, so i wont touch on those.

all i will say is regarding this:



point here being that a rogue needs a specific team setup in order to prevail. i dont understand this constant warrior envy that rogues have; rogues are not warriors. so why do so many rogues insist on trying to shoehorn the rogue class into a role that the warrior class fills? ive seen these successful 5v5 teams that contain rogues, and its pretty much what tyr says; no warrior, 4 dps. ironically, those teams tend to eat warriors for breakfast.

so again i ask...why do rogues continue to try to be warriors when they should instead focus on being rogues, thus building their arena team around that?

It may become somewhat more viable in 2s and 3s to be honest, but I still see the potential lackluster.


There is no way it would EVER work in 5s. You would be out of cooldowns by the 2nd guy.


Biggest problem is you loose any fragment of hope at being PVE viable.

i dont think prep to 11 points would make people spec into sub past 11 points sadly. it might just mean people to 9/41/11 instead of 20/41/0.

Well, I think we can all agree the shadowstep changes alone won't be enough to revive sub.

Something additional needs to happen.

FTFY!

He's saying that using hamstring will affect YOU and people getting attacked on YOUR team to take less damage, as it is undispellable (unless you BoP it or trinket it).

Just because I'm bored, I think I'll do a quick comparison.

Rogue vs. Warrior

Kiteable?
Rogue: Gets a distance closer on a 5 minute cooldown that is not guaranteed to close distance. Also gets a 41 point talent in the worst tree on a 40 second cooldown that will likely put the Rogue just outside melee range anyway.

Warrior: Gets one on a 30 second cooldown by default. Stuns for 3 seconds.

Winner? Warrior by a landslide.

Movement Impair?
Rogue: Crippling Poison, 70% movement speed reduction, 35 energy to apply, or you can be stupid and hope it procs itself. Dispellable. Also gets a ****** 31 point talent that's unreliable and weaker effect. Deadly throw, which requires combo points and also requires that the target be far out of melee range before it can be used.

Warrior: Hamstring, costs next to nothing, can't be dispelled, 15% chance for a complete snare with talents. Piercing Howl, AoE Daze, cannot be dispelled, 11 point talent.

Winner? Warrior by a landslide.

Healing Debuff?
Rogue: Wound Poison, takes a long time to stack up, dispellable.

Warrior: Mortal Strike, 31 point talent that both does large amounts of damage and applies an undispellable debuff equal to a full stack of Wound Poison. 5 second cooldown.

Winner? Warrior by a landslide.

Survivability?
Rogue: Leather armor, 0 shielding or armor increasing abilities. High dodge, which turns off when your opponent is behind you, or you are stunned. Can become highly resistant to spells for 5 seconds every minute, but does not remove incapacitating effects.

Warrior: Plate armor, providing about twice the damage reduction of a Rogue. Plate armor also tends to have significantly more stamina than leather. Damage reduction is not effected by stuns. Regenerates health when stunned or hit by a crit. Talented Disarm immunity. 30 second fear immunity on a 3 second cooldown through talents. 10 second fear and incapacitate immunity on a 30 second cooldown without talents.

Winner? Warrior by a landslide.

Burst Damage?
Rogue: Heavily cooldown reliant for burst damage, can be negated completely by stuns or other incapacitating effects, or by simply walking away.

Warrior: Extremely high instant attack damage without cooldown use. Can Execute targets low on health to guarantee a swift end to the fight. Can deliver several thousand damage in just a couple seconds.

Winner? Warrior by a landslide.

CC?
Rogue: Sap, can only be applied once, and only if your target has not yet entered combat. Broken by damage. Blind, single target, breaks on damage, long cooldown.

Warrior: AoE fear, same cooldown as Blind, duration is 2 seconds shorter, but effects 5 targets.

Winner? Warrior by a landslide.


I tried, I honestly can't think of a single thing that Rogues do better than Warriors in 5v5. Warriors do more damage, kill low health targets faster, are harder to kite, take less damage, have more health, don't have to use a weapon chain, get group buffs, can AoE fear, self heal a small amount, have tons of options to deal with incapacitate effects without worrying about blowing their trinket early and are generally just more effective at their job.

But not as much control as say a frost mage or a warlock :/

Posting to correct you misinformation.



BoP dispells it and it's on a 6 seconds cooldown. Can be 5 seconds if talented but no one in their right mind would give up the goodies in the fury tree for 1 seconds off MS.



Being behind your opponent does not negate dodge, just parry. Everyone can't dodge while stunned.



Blood craze is talented and only procs with crit and heals 3% total life over 6 seconds. Secondwind is talented also and only procs with hit with a root or stun or incapacitaing effect like freeze trap. Heals 10% of life over 10 seconds. We can also reflect spells if the caster is stupid enough to keep casting after they see the huge neon sign saying "don't cast!".



Same goes for warriors. You also have all your cooldowns reset every time you go into arena.



You forgot CS, KS, and gouge. They don't last extremely long but they are all on separate diminishing returns. So how exactly does an aoe fear win by a landslide?




Edited, Sep 29th 2007 12:37pm by Jimpadan

This is you defending MS?

Ahaha. So a Paladin can blow BoP and remove MS, which is going to get put right back on after BoP is off.

Good one.