I think it needs to be said. I am a fan of my rogue and I will always say the class is the best world/BG pvp class out there due to its nature. However, also doue to its nature it's the worst arena class. Hopefully there will be more continued improvements to us in patch 2.3, and if not then then maybe in future patches. As it stands now (and after 2.3)...
Warriors still do everything we do better in Arena Combat.
I will not be including shadowstep rogues in this just because the spec still will not be viable enough.
Edit:
I realize we're stronger than the warrior in the category of stunning. Keep in mind that's one category.
Defensive Options
Rogue: Leather and Medium HP, Evasion and Cloak of Shadows (single use per arena matches usually).
Warrior: Plate and High HP, spell reflect.
CC Options
Rogue: 10 second single target non dispellable CC, is trinketable.
Warrior: 6 second multi target non dispellable CC, is trinketable.
Offensive Options
Rogue (mutilate): Can do high DPS if target is poisoned, but DPS is positional.
Rogue (combat mace): Can do high DPS from anywhere around the target, but only under the effect of AR.
Warrior: Can do high DPS anywhere around the target constantly with no limitations.
Stunning
Rogue (mut): 4 second useable from stealth only stun. Can use vanish to redo it. Maximum 6 second outside of stealth stun once every 20 seconds.
Rogue (combat): Same as above, with the additional mace stun proc.
Warrior: 2 second out of combat stun, 2 second in combat stun, mace stun procs.
Snares
Rogue: Random Application dispellable poison. Can forcefully apply for a large reduction in DPS potential.
Warrior: Applied non-dispellable movement impairing effect. Slightly weaker than the rogue snare.
Anti Healing Techniques
Rogue: Random Application Dispellable Poison. Must apply 5 times to be useful.
Warrior: Instant Application Non-Dispellable Debuff. Is applied along side the Warrior's highest damaging attack.
Conditional Attacks
Rogue (mut): If target is poisoned, can do 50% more damage with mutilate.
Warrior: If target is below 20%, can perform a move that will certainly kill the target.
Warrior: If target has just dodged your attack, can perform a move that will do a tremendous amount of damage (just as much as if the target had taken the first blow).
Target Switching
Rogue: Momentum is saved to the target, so switching targets resets the fight.
Warrior: Momentum is saved to the player, so switching targets continues the fight.
Weaknesses
Rogue: No ranged, soft.
Warrior: No ranged.
Anti-Weakness Techniques
Rogue: Single use on fleeing target deadly throw, single use movement speed increase, single use movement impairing removal.
Warrior: 30 second cooldown intercept.
Overall
The warrior and rogue class are designed to do the exact same thing. The idea at first was that both classes would share a DPS role, but the rogue would be able to move around the battlefield undetected. To compensate, he was given softer gear. Now picture a place where you cannot hide, where you have to fight your battles and where everyone has some form of stun resist. This is the current arena floor! This made the rogue much less favorable for large-scale encounters which is why rogues are hardly ever seen in 5v5 combat: warriors do everything they do better with higher defense.
Picturing a Solution
I believe the rogue class needs to receive changes like this in order to fully find their place in arena combat.
1.) All rogues receive the following abilities:
Swallow Dive (ala Ninja Gaiden)
60 Energy
30 Second Cooldown
Instant Cast
Requires Daggers
Requires Target below 40% HP.
8-30 Yard Range
Use: The rogue uses an ancient technique to fly towards his opponent. This instantly causes 250% main hand weapon damage and applies the main hand poison. Generates 1 combo point.
Leg Kick
Requires a Resisted Stun
40 Energy
10 second cooldown.
Use: Upon a failed stun the rogue delivers a leg kick to his opponent, causing 200 damage and rooting the target in place for 4 seconds.
2.) Blind is removed from the pvp trinket or changed to be exactly like the warrior intimidating shout.
3.) Combo Points are saved to the rogue instead of to the target.
I hate to say it, but I doubt we'll ever see changes like this. Furthermore, I'm also confident that until we receive changes like this warriors will continue to outshine us in every way possible in 5v5 combat.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 4:06pm by Shaolinz
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Yeah. Most of the "buffs" they're giving us is a complete joke. Those are some great ideas for mobility. But this is very true, warriors do everything we do, except better. MS > wound poison. Hamstring > crip. Intercept > Sprint (IMO, lower cooldown, instant reconnect, Plate > Leather. Blizz needs to start opening it's eyes and give us some REAL buffs.
They should just make blind an AoE with a cone radius, make the duration shorter and make it not break from damage.
Makes sense imo, getting hit isn't going to remove **** from your eyes.
Makes sense imo, getting hit isn't going to remove **** from your eyes.
Mageoken wrote:
They should just make blind an AoE with a cone radius, make the duration shorter and make it not break from damage.
Makes sense imo, getting hit isn't going to remove sh*t from your eyes.
Makes sense imo, getting hit isn't going to remove sh*t from your eyes.
Very strange idea. It wouldn't be worth it because unless you're in an EXTREMELY coordinated 5v5 it won't affect anything.
My god.
Just think of the math involving in determining the usefulness of a conic effect that has a variable duration and does no direct damage, but serves a utility purpose. ****, you'd have to have a speed of flight, angles of the arc, duration statistics, and how it could be resisted and/or dispelled.
I think I just had an aneurysm.
Just think of the math involving in determining the usefulness of a conic effect that has a variable duration and does no direct damage, but serves a utility purpose. ****, you'd have to have a speed of flight, angles of the arc, duration statistics, and how it could be resisted and/or dispelled.
I think I just had an aneurysm.
I know you just had an aneurysm because I just had one reading all of that as well. Well-thought out post though Shao.
Really though we rogues are stubborn bastards. Its like a game between us and blizzard, who caves first?
Will all the rogues quit the game?
Will Blizzard finally heed our pleas?
Will apocalypse strike first?
Will all the rogues quit the game?
Will Blizzard finally heed our pleas?
Will apocalypse strike first?
Blizzard does have their back to a wall. We're fine in BGs and world pvp because we can hide.
In BGs you hide until numbers are manageable (one on one or two on two) and then come out. You tend to avoid confrontations over 4, then tend to only fight in confrontations greater than 20. These are the ones where you can sneak out and kill someone without the rest of his team really noticing it.
You can't do things like this in the arena. There is no hiding, no waiting for an opportune moment. That's why we're hurting; we weren't originally DESIGNED for arena combat!
In BGs you hide until numbers are manageable (one on one or two on two) and then come out. You tend to avoid confrontations over 4, then tend to only fight in confrontations greater than 20. These are the ones where you can sneak out and kill someone without the rest of his team really noticing it.
You can't do things like this in the arena. There is no hiding, no waiting for an opportune moment. That's why we're hurting; we weren't originally DESIGNED for arena combat!
And it sucks. 'Cause arena is what really matters, not BG's.
Rating you up, Shao, for a well constructed post. I can't argue with any individual point you've made (both for reasons of personal roguish newbieness and the seeming saliency of your argument). The only counterpoint I can make falls under the inauspicious yet necessary rubric of balance.
You've stated that rogues are fine in World PvP and in BGs; and from what I've read they are certainly still viable in raid dps. So that's 3 out of 4 of the things that matter, at least at level cap, in WoW. And even in the 4th, Arena, it's only in 5v5 that rogues are really lacking, is that right? So to buff rogues sufficiently that they are needed and wanted in top 5v5 teams could make them dramatically overpowered in other forms of pvp, including 2v2 and 3v3.
I'm not saying rogues don't need a buff. I am saying that it needs to be done very carefully lest cries of World of Roguecraft! find their way back to the common vernacular.
You've stated that rogues are fine in World PvP and in BGs; and from what I've read they are certainly still viable in raid dps. So that's 3 out of 4 of the things that matter, at least at level cap, in WoW. And even in the 4th, Arena, it's only in 5v5 that rogues are really lacking, is that right? So to buff rogues sufficiently that they are needed and wanted in top 5v5 teams could make them dramatically overpowered in other forms of pvp, including 2v2 and 3v3.
I'm not saying rogues don't need a buff. I am saying that it needs to be done very carefully lest cries of World of Roguecraft! find their way back to the common vernacular.
AynLoD wrote:
Rating you up, Shao, for a well constructed post. I can't argue with any individual point you've made (both for reasons of personal roguish newbieness and the seeming saliency of your argument). The only counterpoint I can make falls under the inauspicious yet necessary rubric of balance.
You've stated that rogues are fine in World PvP and in BGs; and from what I've read they are certainly still viable in raid dps. So that's 3 out of 4 of the things that matter, at least at level cap, in WoW. And even in the 4th, Arena, it's only in 5v5 that rogues are really lacking, is that right? So to buff rogues sufficiently that they are needed and wanted in top 5v5 teams could make them dramatically overpowered in other forms of pvp, including 2v2 and 3v3.
I'm not saying rogues don't need a buff. I am saying that it needs to be done very carefully lest cries of World of Roguecraft! find their way back to the common vernacular.
You've stated that rogues are fine in World PvP and in BGs; and from what I've read they are certainly still viable in raid dps. So that's 3 out of 4 of the things that matter, at least at level cap, in WoW. And even in the 4th, Arena, it's only in 5v5 that rogues are really lacking, is that right? So to buff rogues sufficiently that they are needed and wanted in top 5v5 teams could make them dramatically overpowered in other forms of pvp, including 2v2 and 3v3.
I'm not saying rogues don't need a buff. I am saying that it needs to be done very carefully lest cries of World of Roguecraft! find their way back to the common vernacular.
Very true. Giving them 1 effective 5v5 buff could totally make them OP. Good roguecraft days, when locks were..bad?! o_O. Lol. Everyone was like ZOMG it's so hard to be a lock you don't understand everyone can own me. Now the scale has completely turned.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 12:38am by EliminatorX
Well..imo blizz has more than one solution for our arena problems.
1. they could increase timers on our stun( after bc hp of all classes increased A LOT but our stun timers are the same).
2. AOE poison debuff.
2. some other sort of buffing either our control over the fight or damage.
But from what i see ....blizzard's ''buffs'' for the rogue class are actually more like nerfs( dt and ruthlesness...etc).
Giving rogues a buff for the party would be kinda useless....we are damage dealers not utility. We *should* be able to deal best dmg and a certain amount of control over a fight and that's all.
1. they could increase timers on our stun( after bc hp of all classes increased A LOT but our stun timers are the same).
2. AOE poison debuff.
2. some other sort of buffing either our control over the fight or damage.
But from what i see ....blizzard's ''buffs'' for the rogue class are actually more like nerfs( dt and ruthlesness...etc).
Giving rogues a buff for the party would be kinda useless....we are damage dealers not utility. We *should* be able to deal best dmg and a certain amount of control over a fight and that's all.
I've seen a lot of good ideas about what can be done, either to help mobility or to improve control. Personally, I'd like to see cc cd timers on par with that of other classes, be it in-combat sap or just reducing blind, whichever. The other thing that I find really annoying is the uselessness of vanish in 5v5. I don't know if anyone else has come up with this idea yet, but without further ado: attach aoe blind to vanish, even if it is only 1 or 2 sec duration, 5yd radius or so. Maybe that would actually make it work as it should. Ya, casters in mid-cast will still tag us, but it would be better than it is now. I don't think that it would be too op with a very short duration.
My main is a mage. When a rogue Vanishes mid-cast, my cast cancels. The only exception being (maybe) if the Vanish is hit right as my cast bar finishes--then it's difficult to say what would happen. More frustrating than that is the ability of pets/minions to track you after you stealth out of combat. That is, if you and an enemy player see each other at the same time from a long distance, all that player has to do is sick their pet/minion on you. Even if you stealth before the pet gets to you, it still hunts you down. From a "let's make it like RL" perspective, I could see an argument where a pet (not a minion) would still sense you via smell or sound, but then their speed should be slowed down or they should have to search around for you a bit. Even a bloodhound doesn't make a beeline to his nose's target. :P
If Vanish were changed such that it wasn't broken by DoT's, would that be OP? You'd still take dmg but you'd at least remain stealthed. I'm thinking that's probably out of the question b/c it would also take away every other class's only way of finding the rogue--rank 1 AoE abilities. /shrug
If Vanish were changed such that it wasn't broken by DoT's, would that be OP? You'd still take dmg but you'd at least remain stealthed. I'm thinking that's probably out of the question b/c it would also take away every other class's only way of finding the rogue--rank 1 AoE abilities. /shrug
Keeping stealth through a DoT would be somewhat overpowered. However changing vanish to where you took 10% more damage from all sources but didn't drop stealth till improved vanish wore or till you attacked...
Oh and I'm banned from the o-boards (long story), so if anyone wants to link to it on there feel free.
Spells are supposed to be interrupted when a rogue hits vanish, but lag says otherwise. Anyway, having a 1sec aoe blind attached to vanish with a 5yd radius probly wouldn't affect this situation anyway. It will probably remain a grin and bear it issue forever. Just trying to come up with an idea that would make it work more like it was intended. It's really frustrating having your 5min cd "oh sh*t" button being somewhat of a gamble.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 9:45am by Glossu
How to fix vanish:
Do a survey of average ping across all servers
grant invulnerability to rogues for average ping plus one second.
Do a survey of average ping across all servers
grant invulnerability to rogues for average ping plus one second.
Not to burst the QQing bubble or anything, but a few of these look a little off.
1) Combat Maces only does decent damage under the effects of AR, whereas MS Warriors do great damage constantly? Okay, except for the part where that's not... you know, accurate. In any way, shape, or form.
2) Look up the duration for Charge and Intercept stuns again. We also don't get unlinked DR's for them, so in 90% of the cases if we Charge then a later Intercept will be reduced.
3) MS is dispellable, and if you think that BoP isn't used often in Arena matches you're out of your mind. With a Rogue and a caster-heavy Arena team you can blow right through BoP, since it won't drop off your healing reduction or damage; with a Warrior, BoP means the target is getting to full due to MS dropping off.
4) "Warrior Weakness: Exponential damage decrease on armored targets (Mail+ with Shield - Shaman, Paladins) due to insufficient Rage to use special abilities as they come off cooldown."
5) "Warrior Weakness: 10% incoming damage increase required to deal effective damage. Vulnerable to quick assist-training/stunning while in increased-damage state."
Not to question your experience on this anyway, but didn't you just break 1800 in a 2v2? How much experience do you have with trying to be a Rogue in a serious arena team, especially the larger ones?
EDIT: Warriors got stealth nerfed too by the Disarm changes. You can only reduce the duration by 50%, not go immune anymore with any talent or weapon chain/steelgrips. Man, I wonder if there's a class with access to a fairly spam'able disarm they could use to obliterate Warriors.
Hmm. Nah.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 10:09am by RPZip
1) Combat Maces only does decent damage under the effects of AR, whereas MS Warriors do great damage constantly? Okay, except for the part where that's not... you know, accurate. In any way, shape, or form.
2) Look up the duration for Charge and Intercept stuns again. We also don't get unlinked DR's for them, so in 90% of the cases if we Charge then a later Intercept will be reduced.
3) MS is dispellable, and if you think that BoP isn't used often in Arena matches you're out of your mind. With a Rogue and a caster-heavy Arena team you can blow right through BoP, since it won't drop off your healing reduction or damage; with a Warrior, BoP means the target is getting to full due to MS dropping off.
4) "Warrior Weakness: Exponential damage decrease on armored targets (Mail+ with Shield - Shaman, Paladins) due to insufficient Rage to use special abilities as they come off cooldown."
5) "Warrior Weakness: 10% incoming damage increase required to deal effective damage. Vulnerable to quick assist-training/stunning while in increased-damage state."
Not to question your experience on this anyway, but didn't you just break 1800 in a 2v2? How much experience do you have with trying to be a Rogue in a serious arena team, especially the larger ones?
EDIT: Warriors got stealth nerfed too by the Disarm changes. You can only reduce the duration by 50%, not go immune anymore with any talent or weapon chain/steelgrips. Man, I wonder if there's a class with access to a fairly spam'able disarm they could use to obliterate Warriors.
Hmm. Nah.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 10:09am by RPZip
Great points (although depressing), rate up.
Thanks for your time drafting this nicely put argument.
nostra
Thanks for your time drafting this nicely put argument.
nostra
Even though most of your viewpoints are "from the other side of the fence" RP, let's just assume that you're right on every point.
Maybe BoP does remove MS. But cleanse, poison removing totem, stoneform and abolish poison all remove our poison. Since that is detrimental to our DPS, I think it's safe to say that warriors are still better suited in both aspects.
Couple that with the warrior's higher armor and HP, and the fact that you still have a superior "catcher", the original argument stands. Warriors do everything that Rogues do in 5v5 arena, except better.
Maybe BoP does remove MS. But cleanse, poison removing totem, stoneform and abolish poison all remove our poison. Since that is detrimental to our DPS, I think it's safe to say that warriors are still better suited in both aspects.
Couple that with the warrior's higher armor and HP, and the fact that you still have a superior "catcher", the original argument stands. Warriors do everything that Rogues do in 5v5 arena, except better.
It's a question of varying degrees, although Stoneform is a bit of a GG (Damn Dwarfs). I wish that people would waste their time spamming Depoison on my target, even if it reduced the healing debuff. During that time they're not _healing_ him either. If there are two healers on their team in a 5v5 and one of them is spamming Depoison, even if he gets all the poisons off instantly every time he's still managed to reduce his effective healing squad to one person.
As if their healing was cut in half.
It's not by any means perfect but it does work, and it does lend itself to a different strategy and set of tactics. *shrug*
As if their healing was cut in half.
It's not by any means perfect but it does work, and it does lend itself to a different strategy and set of tactics. *shrug*
Shaolinz wrote:
Blizzard does have their back to a wall. We're fine in BGs and world pvp because we can hide.
In BGs you hide until numbers are manageable (one on one or two on two) and then come out. You tend to avoid confrontations over 4, then tend to only fight in confrontations greater than 20. These are the ones where you can sneak out and kill someone without the rest of his team really noticing it.
You can't do things like this in the arena. There is no hiding, no waiting for an opportune moment. That's why we're hurting; we weren't originally DESIGNED for arena combat!
In BGs you hide until numbers are manageable (one on one or two on two) and then come out. You tend to avoid confrontations over 4, then tend to only fight in confrontations greater than 20. These are the ones where you can sneak out and kill someone without the rest of his team really noticing it.
You can't do things like this in the arena. There is no hiding, no waiting for an opportune moment. That's why we're hurting; we weren't originally DESIGNED for arena combat!
No class was.
Warriors are a group pvp class where rogues are a solo pvp class. Does it really surprise you that warriors do better in the group pvp of arena?
Oh, I should also add in the warrior shout. That one that increases your hp by some ridiculous amount is definitely a great group buff.
And the problem is that warriors and rogues have the exact same role in 5v5, and warriors do it better. This makes the rogue class somewhat useless which IS a balance issue. Although it's only useless in one area of pvp (2v2, 3v3, BG and World PvP are fine), it's still a weakness the class has.
And the problem is that warriors and rogues have the exact same role in 5v5, and warriors do it better. This makes the rogue class somewhat useless which IS a balance issue. Although it's only useless in one area of pvp (2v2, 3v3, BG and World PvP are fine), it's still a weakness the class has.
Shaolinz wrote:
I think it needs to be said. I am a fan of my rogue and I will always say the class is the best world/BG pvp class out there due to its nature. However, also doue to its nature it's the worst arena class. Hopefully there will be more continued improvements to us in patch 2.3, and if not then then maybe in future patches. As it stands now (and after 2.3)...
Defensive Options
Rogue: Leather and Medium HP, Evasion and Cloak of Shadows (single use per arena matches usually).
Warrior: Plate and High HP, spell reflect.
Defensive Options
Rogue: Leather and Medium HP, Evasion and Cloak of Shadows (single use per arena matches usually).
Warrior: Plate and High HP, spell reflect.
Quote:
CC Options
Rogue: 10 second single target non dispellable CC, is trinketable.
Warrior: 6 second multi target non dispellable CC, is trinketable.
Rogue: 10 second single target non dispellable CC, is trinketable.
Warrior: 6 second multi target non dispellable CC, is trinketable.
Not really a "does it better" but w/e.
Quote:
Offensive Options
Rogue (mutilate): Can do high DPS if target is poisoned, but DPS is positional.
Rogue (combat mace): Can do high DPS from anywhere around the target, but only under the effect of AR.
Warrior: Can do high DPS anywhere around the target constantly with no limitations.
Rogue (mutilate): Can do high DPS if target is poisoned, but DPS is positional.
Rogue (combat mace): Can do high DPS from anywhere around the target, but only under the effect of AR.
Warrior: Can do high DPS anywhere around the target constantly with no limitations.
Wanna know what rage is? Well, we get infinite. Warriors don't.
Quote:
Stunning
Rogue (mut): 4 second useable from stealth only stun. Can use vanish to redo it. Maximum 6 second outside of stealth stun once every 20 seconds.
Rogue (combat): Same as above, with the additional mace stun proc.
Warrior: 2 second out of combat stun, 2 second in combat stun, mace stun procs.
Rogue (mut): 4 second useable from stealth only stun. Can use vanish to redo it. Maximum 6 second outside of stealth stun once every 20 seconds.
Rogue (combat): Same as above, with the additional mace stun proc.
Warrior: 2 second out of combat stun, 2 second in combat stun, mace stun procs.
How does warrior beat us here?
Quote:
Snares
Rogue: Random Application dispellable poison. Can forcefully apply for a large reduction in DPS potential.
Warrior: Applied non-dispellable movement impairing effect. Slightly weaker than the rogue snare.
Rogue: Random Application dispellable poison. Can forcefully apply for a large reduction in DPS potential.
Warrior: Applied non-dispellable movement impairing effect. Slightly weaker than the rogue snare.
Ours is not random. "Can forcefully apply for a large reduction in DPS potential."
And warriors do amazing dps spamming Hamstring?
Quote:
Picturing a Solution
I believe the rogue class needs to receive changes like this in order to fully find their place in arena combat.
1.) All rogues receive the following abilities:
Swallow Dive (ala Ninja Gaiden)
60 Energy
30 Second Cooldown
Instant Cast
Requires Daggers
Requires Target below 40% HP.
8-30 Yard Range
Use: The rogue uses an ancient technique to fly towards his opponent. This instantly causes 250% main hand weapon damage and applies the main hand poison. Generates 1 combo point.
I believe the rogue class needs to receive changes like this in order to fully find their place in arena combat.
1.) All rogues receive the following abilities:
Swallow Dive (ala Ninja Gaiden)
60 Energy
30 Second Cooldown
Instant Cast
Requires Daggers
Requires Target below 40% HP.
8-30 Yard Range
Use: The rogue uses an ancient technique to fly towards his opponent. This instantly causes 250% main hand weapon damage and applies the main hand poison. Generates 1 combo point.
Retarded.
Quote:
Leg Kick
Requires a Resisted Stun
40 Energy
10 second cooldown.
Use: Upon a failed stun the rogue delivers a leg kick to his opponent, causing 200 damage and rooting the target in place for 4 seconds.
Requires a Resisted Stun
40 Energy
10 second cooldown.
Use: Upon a failed stun the rogue delivers a leg kick to his opponent, causing 200 damage and rooting the target in place for 4 seconds.
Should be 30 Seconds, maybe talented to 25 or something and this has validity.
Quote:
2.) Blind is removed from the pvp trinket or changed to be exactly like the warrior intimidating shout.
Read Patch notes much?
Quote:
3.) Combo Points are saved to the rogue instead of to the target.
Read the O-boards or BlueWatch much?
This QQ was full of fail and misinformation purposely twisted to further try and show your plight.
and:
Quote:
Not to question your experience on this anyway, but didn't you just break 1800 in a 2v2? How much experience do you have with trying to be a Rogue in a serious arena team, especially the larger ones?
If you are especially commenting on one division of arena, you should have some experience there. Talking like you know what's going on only to effectively talk out your *** on many points makes ya look bad.
Shaolinz wrote:
Oh, I should also add in the warrior shout. That one that increases your hp by some ridiculous amount is definitely a great group buff.
And the problem is that warriors and rogues have the exact same role in 5v5, and warriors do it better. This makes the rogue class somewhat useless which IS a balance issue. Although it's only useless in one area of pvp (2v2, 3v3, BG and World PvP are fine), it's still a weakness the class has.
And the problem is that warriors and rogues have the exact same role in 5v5, and warriors do it better. This makes the rogue class somewhat useless which IS a balance issue. Although it's only useless in one area of pvp (2v2, 3v3, BG and World PvP are fine), it's still a weakness the class has.
Does this mean that I can go QQ for being useless without support?
And for the shout. Yes 1350 hp (talented) from commanding shout is a great group buff, so is the 383 AP (talented) from battle shout. Rogues don't have group buffs so we got you there.
What your missing is your strengths. Namely the control you can place over another charater. Both of your stuns, gouge, and blind are all on separate diminishing returns. Maybe rogues could go for a different role in 5v5's as a control class instead of trying to do what the warrior does.
Such as keeping a healer on lockdown. Between stuns, blind, and disorients a rogue could keep a healer occupied for a eternity in pvp terms. This however is not absolute since it requires that no one disrupts the rogue in their duties. Just a thought.
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