Edit: Moved to another thread.
Edited, Oct 1st 2007 11:16am by CapJack
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- Sucks to be Ret in 2.3!
Sucks to be Ret in 2.3!Follow
Alright.
Seriously, Paladins are NOT a DPS-oriented class, this has been said time and time again by devs, CMs and PR reps; it's a fact of the game, and all the whining in the world wont change that class design. Just because a class has a DPS *tree* doesnt mean it should be able to match the DPS output of every other class; WoW is an asymmetric game, if you want everyone to be the same you may as well play one of those internet RPGs where everyone has the Sword of Quendor or something and hits for the same damage.
Every class has capabilities and weaknesses, Priests and Shamans for example have to suffer with a mediocre HP pool, but get a lot in return. A Retribution Paladin should NOT be capable of matching the raid DPS of a class that specialises in DPS, such as a Rogue/Mage/Warlock, any more than those classes should be able to tank as well as a Warrior or Paladin. The 6sec Crusader Strike, aside from being a heavy PvP boost, is a direct result of the earlier whines about Ret Paladins, raid support; now we can keep every Judgement active on a boss indefinitely, and in the end *that* is our role; buffs and support. What kind of support you give, DPS, Offtanking, Healing, is your choice; you may be fortunate and be a Paladin Main Tank, and if so I wish you well.
If you cannot accept that you will never be top of the DamageMeters in a competent raid, I suggest you either a) stop playing, b) stop playing your Paladin and roll a DPS class or c) turn off your goddamn damage meters. If your ego is so bruised that the Warrior finished ahead of you, you have no clue about team-based gameplay.
Finally, the bubble is not an aggro-dump, but it will keep you alive. Frankly if your tank cannot surpass your threat in TWELVE SECONDS of either not attacking or attacking at 50% speed, you need a new tank.
~sins
Seriously, Paladins are NOT a DPS-oriented class, this has been said time and time again by devs, CMs and PR reps; it's a fact of the game, and all the whining in the world wont change that class design. Just because a class has a DPS *tree* doesnt mean it should be able to match the DPS output of every other class; WoW is an asymmetric game, if you want everyone to be the same you may as well play one of those internet RPGs where everyone has the Sword of Quendor or something and hits for the same damage.
Every class has capabilities and weaknesses, Priests and Shamans for example have to suffer with a mediocre HP pool, but get a lot in return. A Retribution Paladin should NOT be capable of matching the raid DPS of a class that specialises in DPS, such as a Rogue/Mage/Warlock, any more than those classes should be able to tank as well as a Warrior or Paladin. The 6sec Crusader Strike, aside from being a heavy PvP boost, is a direct result of the earlier whines about Ret Paladins, raid support; now we can keep every Judgement active on a boss indefinitely, and in the end *that* is our role; buffs and support. What kind of support you give, DPS, Offtanking, Healing, is your choice; you may be fortunate and be a Paladin Main Tank, and if so I wish you well.
If you cannot accept that you will never be top of the DamageMeters in a competent raid, I suggest you either a) stop playing, b) stop playing your Paladin and roll a DPS class or c) turn off your goddamn damage meters. If your ego is so bruised that the Warrior finished ahead of you, you have no clue about team-based gameplay.
Finally, the bubble is not an aggro-dump, but it will keep you alive. Frankly if your tank cannot surpass your threat in TWELVE SECONDS of either not attacking or attacking at 50% speed, you need a new tank.
~sins
Quote:
If you cannot accept that you will never be top of the DamageMeters in a competent raid, I suggest you either a) stop playing, b) stop playing your Paladin and roll a DPS class or c) turn off your goddamn damage meters. If your ego is so bruised that the Warrior finished ahead of you, you have no clue about team-based gameplay.
why do so many people chime in that have never raided as Ret to try to give the Ret point of view?
i was kickin out 14% of raid dps before a defuff+infernal ganked me. either way, Curator to Prince got pwned in less than 1.5 hrs:
http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_092407_222458.jpg
yesterday we did a rep run for a guildie and rolled through SH in less than 30mins:
http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_100107_211651.jpg
how bout a SV pug cleared in 1.5hrs with no deaths:
http://www.geocities.com/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_093007_215817.jpg
these numbers are all threat-limited
Quote:
Finally, the bubble is not an aggro-dump, but it will keep you alive. Frankly if your tank cannot surpass your threat in TWELVE SECONDS of either not attacking or attacking at 50% speed, you need a new tank.
have you ever even used the Ret spec? staying alive is not the issue. its maximizing output that is the problem. with no aggro dumps a pally must either wait a rediculous amount of time before attacking or stop attacking periodically because of the top heavy aggro he builds.
pally dps is not gear limited like hunters and rogues, its threat limited. pallies actually make great Add tanks like in BM or Curator Flares because of the burst dmg and top heavy aggro build.
#55bodhisattva,
Posted: Oct 02 2007 at 6:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Am I a bad person for laughing at Tommygun's guilds dps? Short Tram indeed.
Quote:
Just to state that Bubble's are not aggro reducers. While bubbled the mob will attack the mob with the next highest threat (hopefully the tank) however as soon as the bubble ends you still have the same threat you had before and if the tank hasn't surpassed you in that time you are one shotted.
right, now shield lasts for 12 seconds. If your tank can't out agro you in 12 seconds, you didn't just creep into top agro, you went balls to the walls and blew it away. In which case you SUCK as a raid dpser.
if tank can't regain agro after 12 seconds, that wasn't an oops, i critted, and seal of crusader critted also. that was an "i don't care about agro, i wanna do max dps".
in order to takew agro and keep it for 12.1 seconds, you had to be trying to take agro. and that .1 second after sheild ends, you deserve to be 1 shotted and wipe your raid, for your own stupidity. probably trying to prove to guild that a pally can be dps.
Edited, Oct 2nd 2007 1:47pm by Hardnotes
#57bodhisattva,
Posted: Oct 02 2007 at 9:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Problem with Bubble is that it switches to person with next highest threat.
Quote:
Care to illustrate further your complete lack of knowledge about even the most basic concepts that us raiders take for granted Hardnotes?
/agreed. if you did raid, you would know about "riding the threat" - which is maximizing dps w/o over-aggro. most classes have a timed aggro dump, which they can use as a dps technique to stay at "max dps" while "mid threat".
pallies and mages get more of an "oh no" button. it prevents them from dying but once they get back in the battle they are back near the top of the aggro list. pallies are even more prone to this due to melee range and lack of a proprietary talented threat reducer.
to sum it up: melee range + no dump + no (-)threat talents = at least i still got pvp.
agro management is the name of raiding.
simply don't out agro your tank.
whether you have an agro dump or not, it's all agro management, don't out agro the tank.
if you do, you know what happens.
the game has been out for years, you know how it works, dont out agro the tank, any raider knows this.
what i hear from this thread is, whaaaa, i want to pinch out a few more dps before i out agro the tank.
simply don't out agro your tank.
whether you have an agro dump or not, it's all agro management, don't out agro the tank.
if you do, you know what happens.
the game has been out for years, you know how it works, dont out agro the tank, any raider knows this.
what i hear from this thread is, whaaaa, i want to pinch out a few more dps before i out agro the tank.
#60bodhisattva,
Posted: Oct 02 2007 at 10:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You have a childlike understanding of threat and aggro. Worse you seem to have only half read the thread and are responding to stuff that has already been addressed or flat out posting on misconceptions.
Quote:
agro management is the name of raiding.
hmm, is that all? funny, i thought the mobs and bosses needed to die. /dance causes zero aggro, lemme inform my guild on our new strategy.
Quote:
the game has been out for years, you know how it works, dont out agro the tank, any raider knows this.
speaking of Raiders, its great to have Randy Moss. Pats 16-0 FTW!
Scholar
24 posts
I don't like the tone of this thread but i can't help responding and hope i don't sound too patronising or aggresive or whatever...
The thing is, it does sound like you Retribution Paladins are just refusing to do anything other than DPS.
Sure, if you're mana pool is very low then you won't be able to spot heal for long without going oom, but from the sounds of it you're over-focusing on DPS stats and then not even being able to use them since you create so much threat and have to stop attacking.
So instead, if you replaced some of those DPS stats for healing stats then your threat would be reduced and you'd be able to help out with some heals/cleanses every now and then when things inevitably start getting out of hand for the healers, as they do from time to time.
It seems to me that Blizzard want Paladins to have to stop DPSing at times and use their other abilities during a raid.
Paladin heals cause very little threat so there is your threat reduction ability, it isn't a static reduction in threat like every other class because if it was then there wouldn't be any point in having different classes.
As for this...
I guess it's only me that's normally on about 1.5 to 2 times as much threat as everyone else on bosses then?
Granted i've only tanked up to Prince so far and we've only got him to about 40% (we only got to him this week so are still learning the fight) but i'm including the non-Exorcisable bosses here so that isn't skewing results.
My guild's DPS is managing to down bosses without getting anywhere near my threat and i'm a long way from being overgeared - so far the Tier 4 gloves are my only Kara gear QQ lol!
I'm not talking about trash cos surely they die before threat becomes any sort of problem?
Rob
The thing is, it does sound like you Retribution Paladins are just refusing to do anything other than DPS.
Sure, if you're mana pool is very low then you won't be able to spot heal for long without going oom, but from the sounds of it you're over-focusing on DPS stats and then not even being able to use them since you create so much threat and have to stop attacking.
So instead, if you replaced some of those DPS stats for healing stats then your threat would be reduced and you'd be able to help out with some heals/cleanses every now and then when things inevitably start getting out of hand for the healers, as they do from time to time.
It seems to me that Blizzard want Paladins to have to stop DPSing at times and use their other abilities during a raid.
Paladin heals cause very little threat so there is your threat reduction ability, it isn't a static reduction in threat like every other class because if it was then there wouldn't be any point in having different classes.
As for this...
Quote:
Problem with Bubble is that it switches to person with next highest threat.
Often that isn't the tank.
Often that isn't the tank.
I guess it's only me that's normally on about 1.5 to 2 times as much threat as everyone else on bosses then?
Granted i've only tanked up to Prince so far and we've only got him to about 40% (we only got to him this week so are still learning the fight) but i'm including the non-Exorcisable bosses here so that isn't skewing results.
My guild's DPS is managing to down bosses without getting anywhere near my threat and i'm a long way from being overgeared - so far the Tier 4 gloves are my only Kara gear QQ lol!
I'm not talking about trash cos surely they die before threat becomes any sort of problem?
Rob
robmaslen wrote:
I guess it's only me that's normally on about 1.5 to 2 times as much threat as everyone else on bosses then?
Your guild's DPS sucks. Or something is going on here that we're unaware of, like perhaps you have windfury/wrath of air?
Scholar
24 posts
Quote:
Your guild's DPS sucks. Or something is going on here that we're unaware of, like perhaps you have windfury/wrath of air?
LMFAO, sucks in what way?
We down bosses no problem once we know the tactics, what other measure can there be?
This is why this thread sucks and why i've pretty much had it with this forum, unfortunately.
Granted, some people may lack tact, but their points remain valid...
I believe the point was that good DPSers should be able to push the DPS just as far as the tank can push aggro. That means if you have twice the aggro of your DPSers, they're not pushing DPS and thus you could be downing bosses that much faster.
It is, in fact, the point of the Ret DPS debate. They can do good damage, but lack aggro reducers thus they reach their DPS cap too quickly. On the other hand, classes with those aggro reducers can push DPS further without fear of grabbing aggro.
I believe the point was that good DPSers should be able to push the DPS just as far as the tank can push aggro. That means if you have twice the aggro of your DPSers, they're not pushing DPS and thus you could be downing bosses that much faster.
It is, in fact, the point of the Ret DPS debate. They can do good damage, but lack aggro reducers thus they reach their DPS cap too quickly. On the other hand, classes with those aggro reducers can push DPS further without fear of grabbing aggro.
robmaslen wrote:
We down bosses no problem once we know the tactics, what other measure can there be?
You have Kara bosses down. Give it time. Gruul will eat your souls.
Selverein wrote:
Granted, some people may lack tact, but their points remain valid...
I don't lack tact...I'm irritable today.
Selverein wrote:
I believe the point was that good DPSers should be able to push the DPS just as far as the tank can push aggro. That means if you have twice the aggro of your DPSers, they're not pushing DPS and thus you could be downing bosses that much faster.
It is, in fact, the point of the Ret DPS debate. They can do good damage, but lack aggro reducers thus they reach their DPS cap too quickly. On the other hand, classes with those aggro reducers can push DPS further without fear of grabbing aggro.
It is, in fact, the point of the Ret DPS debate. They can do good damage, but lack aggro reducers thus they reach their DPS cap too quickly. On the other hand, classes with those aggro reducers can push DPS further without fear of grabbing aggro.
Exactly. I may not be the best healer, but I'm good enough at DPS(on my mage, not my paladin) to know that if your DPS can't put out at least as much threat as the tank on a raid boss, then something is off. Gear, skill, or raid setup, whatever it is, it should be a ddressed.
#68bodhisattva,
Posted: Oct 03 2007 at 6:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Rob, the thing about 25 man raiding is that if I want a healer I bring a healer. If I want dps I am going to bring DPS. I am not going to waste a slot to bring a guy whose heals are less than mediocre, and whose dps is just as bad, Unless he brings a buff to the raid that increases raid dps by more then amount of DPS an actual guy like a rogue would bring along. With changes to Ret that reason (3% raid crit) is now 8 points into Ret so any Holy/Prot pally can pick it up.
let me add, this has been reiterated almost a million times: in raids there is no room for mediocre dps and mediocre healing...you need to be the best at one or the other to be successful. Blizz is asking telling ret pallies to be mediocre.
the fact is, EVERY other class has a spec that can consistantly push over 1k dps if geared and spec'd for it. Blizz says pallies shall not be allowed to do this. Blizz has also failed at balancing this inequallity though means of "support". ret pallies have no, or almost no, support functions when it comes to raids.
this is true. the only constant in raiding is mob health. raids are won ONLY when the bosses die. your MT can wear all legendary gear and your healers can have +3k healing, but if you dont pump out the preset amount of dmg, your raid will fail. some bosses even have an "enrage" phase, where when they get there you will die. dps needs to be able to maximize output to prevent those bosses from reaching that point. ret pallies cannot maximize output due to the constraints placed by the Devs. thus ret pallies, in general, hurt the raid.
the fact is, EVERY other class has a spec that can consistantly push over 1k dps if geared and spec'd for it. Blizz says pallies shall not be allowed to do this. Blizz has also failed at balancing this inequallity though means of "support". ret pallies have no, or almost no, support functions when it comes to raids.
Quote:
The thing is, it does sound like you Retribution Paladins are just refusing to do anything other than DPS.
this is true. the only constant in raiding is mob health. raids are won ONLY when the bosses die. your MT can wear all legendary gear and your healers can have +3k healing, but if you dont pump out the preset amount of dmg, your raid will fail. some bosses even have an "enrage" phase, where when they get there you will die. dps needs to be able to maximize output to prevent those bosses from reaching that point. ret pallies cannot maximize output due to the constraints placed by the Devs. thus ret pallies, in general, hurt the raid.
#70bodhisattva,
Posted: Oct 03 2007 at 6:54 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) My first Tommygun rate up.
Scholar
24 posts
oops i'll quote myself since you seemed to miss this caveat...
I was talking about raiding up to this point, not just this point, and not after this point. I know this isn't all there is to raiding but at the moment it works fine for us so i was just saying so. We've adapted to each new boss encounter as we come to it so if we need to do more dps on bosses then we will but so far in our raiding journey it hasn't been an issue.
Maybe i can just do more DPS because than expected because i'm less well geared and taking more damage than the average Kara tank so get more heals/mana regen than usual and can spam everything more. I'm crit/crush immune and focusing purely on Stamina now so maybe that helps me take a steadily large amount of damage...
And as i said, this works in 10 man raids, i have no idea about 25 man raids. (PS. 25 man bosses aren't the only ones with timers)
We're a casual guild who play the game to enjoy ourselves. Boss fights are one of the most fun aspects of the game so if a boss fight takes twice as long for us than it does a serious raiding guild with maxed DPS then i don't see a problem with this lol!
Aaanyway...
Each new Paladin in a raid brings a new Aura/Blessing/Seal which is more than other multiples of classes do.
Have you Ret Paladins tried to maximise your healing for those times when you're getting too much threat and need to take a break from DPS?
I expect you have but noone ever mentions it so I feel the need to ask - sharing ideas FTW ;)
Do you have a healing weapon/off hand/libram that you can switch in? Have you tried using JoW throughout the fight so that you have more mana to heal with if needed or just spam more Crusador Strikes with it's shiny new cooldown, and of course support the raid's mana.
There's rumours of removing the spell damage from tier Retri gear and replacing it with melee stats, which would maybe free up one or two gear slots for healing gear.
And with the proposed change to have 1/3rd of +healing become spell damage it won't be a total drain on your DPS.
Kalgan (was it? or some other dev?) is talking about making spot heals worth casting.
The description of Paladins on their site says things like this "The Paladin is a mix of a melee fighter and a secondary spell caster."
There's probably other signs that point towards Blizzard wanting Retribution Paladins to be able to dps/heal in raids and this sounds much more interesting and fun than just being yet another DPS class.
Come on people lets have more constructive discussion rather than falling into a flame pit of internet forum abuse that just gets everyone agitated :(
Quote:
Granted i've only tanked up to Prince
I was talking about raiding up to this point, not just this point, and not after this point. I know this isn't all there is to raiding but at the moment it works fine for us so i was just saying so. We've adapted to each new boss encounter as we come to it so if we need to do more dps on bosses then we will but so far in our raiding journey it hasn't been an issue.
Maybe i can just do more DPS because than expected because i'm less well geared and taking more damage than the average Kara tank so get more heals/mana regen than usual and can spam everything more. I'm crit/crush immune and focusing purely on Stamina now so maybe that helps me take a steadily large amount of damage...
And as i said, this works in 10 man raids, i have no idea about 25 man raids. (PS. 25 man bosses aren't the only ones with timers)
We're a casual guild who play the game to enjoy ourselves. Boss fights are one of the most fun aspects of the game so if a boss fight takes twice as long for us than it does a serious raiding guild with maxed DPS then i don't see a problem with this lol!
Aaanyway...
Each new Paladin in a raid brings a new Aura/Blessing/Seal which is more than other multiples of classes do.
Have you Ret Paladins tried to maximise your healing for those times when you're getting too much threat and need to take a break from DPS?
I expect you have but noone ever mentions it so I feel the need to ask - sharing ideas FTW ;)
Do you have a healing weapon/off hand/libram that you can switch in? Have you tried using JoW throughout the fight so that you have more mana to heal with if needed or just spam more Crusador Strikes with it's shiny new cooldown, and of course support the raid's mana.
There's rumours of removing the spell damage from tier Retri gear and replacing it with melee stats, which would maybe free up one or two gear slots for healing gear.
And with the proposed change to have 1/3rd of +healing become spell damage it won't be a total drain on your DPS.
Kalgan (was it? or some other dev?) is talking about making spot heals worth casting.
The description of Paladins on their site says things like this "The Paladin is a mix of a melee fighter and a secondary spell caster."
There's probably other signs that point towards Blizzard wanting Retribution Paladins to be able to dps/heal in raids and this sounds much more interesting and fun than just being yet another DPS class.
Come on people lets have more constructive discussion rather than falling into a flame pit of internet forum abuse that just gets everyone agitated :(
Well, you generally dont need to toss out spot heals if you are a retadin in a raid as your dedicated healers should have that covered.
The blessings/aura you bring are not that great since there are only a handful of really *good* blessings, which are covered by the healadins anyway. and the auras are very "bleh".
If you take a class like a druid for example, you have some decent DPS with 2 different specs, a BR, innervate and a great aura.
The only utility a paladin really brings is crusader strike which keeps blessings up. If your healer pallies toss up JoL, JoW and you toss up JotC, the retadin has the ability to keep those up (better now with crusader strike CD decreased). If all goes well and those are all kept up, that is a huge RAID buff, not just party like the druids and shamans. Problem is those need to be kept up pretty much the whole time to make them good and, from the fights ive seen its hard to stay in melee all the time.
As for your aggro output, i guarantee i could slam right through your ceiling. :P
<3 vanish.
The blessings/aura you bring are not that great since there are only a handful of really *good* blessings, which are covered by the healadins anyway. and the auras are very "bleh".
If you take a class like a druid for example, you have some decent DPS with 2 different specs, a BR, innervate and a great aura.
The only utility a paladin really brings is crusader strike which keeps blessings up. If your healer pallies toss up JoL, JoW and you toss up JotC, the retadin has the ability to keep those up (better now with crusader strike CD decreased). If all goes well and those are all kept up, that is a huge RAID buff, not just party like the druids and shamans. Problem is those need to be kept up pretty much the whole time to make them good and, from the fights ive seen its hard to stay in melee all the time.
As for your aggro output, i guarantee i could slam right through your ceiling. :P
<3 vanish.
/sigh I was going to get 16k posts and call it a day.
Ret PvE dps is limited by the threat they build. I believe this threat it has already been covered how that works. A threat reduction was really what ret dps was hoping for, what they got told instead is that it isn't going to happen and instead they are going to have to spot heal.
I can only say it again. A 25 man raid doesn't want ret off heals. They are small, mana inefficient, and pull drastically away from the needed dps. It is just above "Melee Mage" on the list of things a raid absolutely doesn't want. The chance of getting into a raid force as a Ret paladin just went from very low to absolutely no chance at all. There is no arguing it.
If I need a healer I will bring in a healer, if I need dps I will bring in dps. With current raid content there is absolutely no room for a guy who can do both poorly. No room at all.
Edit - Ret pallies have been waiting 9 months for this review. It kills any hopes of Ret raiding. Yes there are some chances of hope such as kalgan saying that spot heals being worth the effort but that is another couple months or more away, if not Wotlk. Means over a year of Ret being borked. Plus a lot of ret pallies are retnoobs who play ret because they have absolutely no interest in healing. Oh, did I mention that I'm really glad I am a Holy Paladin
Edited, Oct 3rd 2007 2:03pm by bodhisattva
Ret PvE dps is limited by the threat they build. I believe this threat it has already been covered how that works. A threat reduction was really what ret dps was hoping for, what they got told instead is that it isn't going to happen and instead they are going to have to spot heal.
I can only say it again. A 25 man raid doesn't want ret off heals. They are small, mana inefficient, and pull drastically away from the needed dps. It is just above "Melee Mage" on the list of things a raid absolutely doesn't want. The chance of getting into a raid force as a Ret paladin just went from very low to absolutely no chance at all. There is no arguing it.
If I need a healer I will bring in a healer, if I need dps I will bring in dps. With current raid content there is absolutely no room for a guy who can do both poorly. No room at all.
Edit - Ret pallies have been waiting 9 months for this review. It kills any hopes of Ret raiding. Yes there are some chances of hope such as kalgan saying that spot heals being worth the effort but that is another couple months or more away, if not Wotlk. Means over a year of Ret being borked. Plus a lot of ret pallies are retnoobs who play ret because they have absolutely no interest in healing. Oh, did I mention that I'm really glad I am a Holy Paladin
Edited, Oct 3rd 2007 2:03pm by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Alright, look.
I am not debating that Retribution Paladins have an aggro problem. They DO have an aggro problem; BY DESIGN.
I said that Paladins are not supposed to be raid DPS machines, and you completely missed the bloody point; Blizzard is giving us a huge gift of *PvP* DPS ability, the ability to down other players without suffering from the 1.1 'loladin' DPS where we were actually *unable* to kill all but the worst opposition (read: Warlocks) due to lack of DPS. A Retribution Paladin can now dump out the DPS in PvP, and cause real, worrying damage in Arena or BGs if they want to.
This ability is a ******* gift to a class with excellent healing and damage mitigation potential, and like it or not Divine Shield is an excellent ability (as its cooldown reflects).
This PvP potential is therefore tempered by a *designed* aggro-cap in PvE DPS; the aggro-cap is there on purpose. Get this through your skull, Blizzard does not ******* owe you raid-quality DPS, as has been said many times if everyone could do the same thing we would just have a raid full of DPS/Holy Paladins and one of each other classes for buffs. What Blizzard have done is open the door for at least one Retribution Paladin in a raid, because that allows that one player to keep 4-5 Judgements on the target reliably with the new Crusader Strike. That way you are doing what Ret Paladins are meant to do; DPS and raid support. This is more Retribution Paladins than were previously useful, ie, none whatsoever.
I simply do not understand the complaints about the bubble, I get the horrible feeling you've been reading fantasy Retribution talent trees in which the bubble is a 50% aggro dump like Soul Shatter; 12 seconds should be long enough for any competent tank to regain aggro, and as has been stated you should never be out-aggroing your tank anyway; get KTM, watch the damn bar, if it gets too high go heal the tank with FoL for a while, make yourself useful til you can DPS again.
Just to be clear; Paladin raid DPS limitations are NOT an artifact of poor class design, the complaints about it are an artifact of poor class choice.
~sins
I am not debating that Retribution Paladins have an aggro problem. They DO have an aggro problem; BY DESIGN.
I said that Paladins are not supposed to be raid DPS machines, and you completely missed the bloody point; Blizzard is giving us a huge gift of *PvP* DPS ability, the ability to down other players without suffering from the 1.1 'loladin' DPS where we were actually *unable* to kill all but the worst opposition (read: Warlocks) due to lack of DPS. A Retribution Paladin can now dump out the DPS in PvP, and cause real, worrying damage in Arena or BGs if they want to.
This ability is a ******* gift to a class with excellent healing and damage mitigation potential, and like it or not Divine Shield is an excellent ability (as its cooldown reflects).
This PvP potential is therefore tempered by a *designed* aggro-cap in PvE DPS; the aggro-cap is there on purpose. Get this through your skull, Blizzard does not ******* owe you raid-quality DPS, as has been said many times if everyone could do the same thing we would just have a raid full of DPS/Holy Paladins and one of each other classes for buffs. What Blizzard have done is open the door for at least one Retribution Paladin in a raid, because that allows that one player to keep 4-5 Judgements on the target reliably with the new Crusader Strike. That way you are doing what Ret Paladins are meant to do; DPS and raid support. This is more Retribution Paladins than were previously useful, ie, none whatsoever.
I simply do not understand the complaints about the bubble, I get the horrible feeling you've been reading fantasy Retribution talent trees in which the bubble is a 50% aggro dump like Soul Shatter; 12 seconds should be long enough for any competent tank to regain aggro, and as has been stated you should never be out-aggroing your tank anyway; get KTM, watch the damn bar, if it gets too high go heal the tank with FoL for a while, make yourself useful til you can DPS again.
Just to be clear; Paladin raid DPS limitations are NOT an artifact of poor class design, the complaints about it are an artifact of poor class choice.
~sins
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I said that Paladins are not supposed to be raid DPS machines, and you completely missed the bloody point;
nobody has missed the point. what you need to do is actually raid as a ret pally and you will see whats going on. if you need i can save you the respec and break it down for you:
-MT grabs boss
-ret pally casts judgement(holy pallies DONT cast judgements for they are often out of range)
-ret pally waits 10 secs for MT to acquire real threat
-pally steps into melee and begins dmg rotation
-pally generates more threat than the MT due to consecutive crits, MT fear, boss aggro dump, etc.
-pally bubbles and sends boss to the next aggro monkey
-player uses FD, fade, etc and sends boss back to MT
-pally bubble wears off, pally is still high up on threat list
-pally is forced to stand around for 10 secs while MT reestablishes real threat
-pally recasts the worn off judgement
-pally continues the dmg rotation, pausing every few seconds to stay under the threat ceiling
-this is repeated until the boss is downed.
-pally has dealt 300-450 dps, 0 hps, an extra 2% to group dmg(sanc), and extra 1% to raid dmg(imp JotC), CC'd nothing, OT'd nothing
-shadow priest has dealt 800-1k dps, 100-200 hps, mana batteried the casters, CC'd the undeads, an extra 10% to dmg for other SP and warlocks
why would anyone take the ret pally over the shadow priest in this example?
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That way you are doing what Ret Paladins are meant to do; DPS and raid support.
ret pallies have aguably the worst raid dps and worst raid support. together they add up to a "half of a player". Blizzard has yet to announce a substantial buff to either in any upcoming patch.
Thats just it. For example, rogues = 29% aggro reduction if i'm remembering that correctly. Now, paladins have a 30% threat reducer. Only difference, its a spell.
First off
HORDE DPS NEVER HAD PALADINS! and they raided well enough. You can generate 30% less threat as ret, when you give yourself salvation. If paladins did not give others salvation, they would see their place on the damage meters rise, more than likely. Since the threat ceiling would be more balanced. Now, since you give everyone else and extra 30% threat redcution (i'm pretty damn sure this isn't additive, i.e. 29% +30% = 59% threat reduction) You have helped the entire raid, and yourself.
That SUPPORT is massive. As a rogue, i <3 salv, but if i was horde pre-bc, i'd just have to not have it, and dps with my lowered ceiling, relative to an alliance rogue w/ salv/equal gear/skill.
Yes, a healadin can give salvation, but now the melee cant get kings or might, and the caster cant get kings or wisdom (in a 5-man, or any raid where only one healadin is available). Paladins may not think these are "enough" support to warrant "sub par dps". I cannot understand that. As a rogue, i would love to know that i dont have to bust my *** for the duration of the raid to be #1-3 on the damage meters, just to get a spot in a raid.
You want innate threat reducing abilities? Don't give anyone else salvation, and your threat reduction is now much closer to theirs. The only thing is, you can increase all thier dps by giving it to them. Should you hog salvation? I would think not, but just because you can give it to others doesn't mean it should be discounted.
On a completely different tangent form threat generation: You have one "broken" tree? for pve? Rogues have two. Mutilate can be used 41/20 for raiding, but an equal combat spec will yield more dps, and Sub is completely unusable in it's current state.
First off
HORDE DPS NEVER HAD PALADINS! and they raided well enough. You can generate 30% less threat as ret, when you give yourself salvation. If paladins did not give others salvation, they would see their place on the damage meters rise, more than likely. Since the threat ceiling would be more balanced. Now, since you give everyone else and extra 30% threat redcution (i'm pretty damn sure this isn't additive, i.e. 29% +30% = 59% threat reduction) You have helped the entire raid, and yourself.
That SUPPORT is massive. As a rogue, i <3 salv, but if i was horde pre-bc, i'd just have to not have it, and dps with my lowered ceiling, relative to an alliance rogue w/ salv/equal gear/skill.
Yes, a healadin can give salvation, but now the melee cant get kings or might, and the caster cant get kings or wisdom (in a 5-man, or any raid where only one healadin is available). Paladins may not think these are "enough" support to warrant "sub par dps". I cannot understand that. As a rogue, i would love to know that i dont have to bust my *** for the duration of the raid to be #1-3 on the damage meters, just to get a spot in a raid.
You want innate threat reducing abilities? Don't give anyone else salvation, and your threat reduction is now much closer to theirs. The only thing is, you can increase all thier dps by giving it to them. Should you hog salvation? I would think not, but just because you can give it to others doesn't mean it should be discounted.
On a completely different tangent form threat generation: You have one "broken" tree? for pve? Rogues have two. Mutilate can be used 41/20 for raiding, but an equal combat spec will yield more dps, and Sub is completely unusable in it's current state.
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