This comes from a discussion we had on the these forums awhile back. Pretty sure it was when warrior flurry got nerfed and the blue post on the O-boards stated it was specifically cause in late end game fury warriors were out dmging rogues.
We had a discussion going on and the basic concept was that blizz should give rogues some utility while raiding so they aren't brought solely for their dmg.
This thought hit me yesterday while I was driving home, just getting around to posting it today.
My idea is to give rogues 2 new poisons that work on all mobs (including boss mobs). First one would be "sticky poison". Coats their armor in a sticky slime that prevents quick movement, aka dodges. Name of the poison can be changed but the effect is what's important. This poison when applied would reduce a mob's chance to dodge by 2%. It could be stackable from different rogues (only one stack per rogue) for a total of 3 poisons. This would reduce a mobs dodge percentage to 0. Netting an increase of 5.6% melee dmg boost. Not imbalancing in the least when you consider it only takes one warrior to get a 4% dmg increase to melee with blood frenzy.
Second poison could be one that lowers spell resist rate. Couldn't think of anything for a name but you get the idea. This could also stack up to 3 times for a total of 6% increase in spell dmg for casters.
Wouldn't have to have both of these poisons just a thought to give rogues some raid utility without imbalancing the game.
What do you guys think? Game imbalancing or somewhat good idea?
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Old subject but interesting theory.
Old subject but interesting theory.Follow
Not bad. I'd had theories like this before, although they related more to giving them armor reduction (not quite as needed with all of the Armor Reduction gear floating around now). It'd work, too... which is why they probably won't do it. Meh, we can hope for the next expansion.
On the other hand, the suckers have Vanish and a lower threat generation to begin with, so they can blow me.
I'm incredibly thankful for having a good Enhancement Shaman as we get further into BT/Hyjal. I've picked up a lot of gear upgrades - Blood-stained Pauldrons, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Grips of Silent Justice, Destroyer BP - in the last few weeks, and even on threat sensitive fights twisting Tranquil Air means I don't overshoot my main tank on threat. Not having to worry about that would be nice.
On the other hand, the suckers have Vanish and a lower threat generation to begin with, so they can blow me.
I'm incredibly thankful for having a good Enhancement Shaman as we get further into BT/Hyjal. I've picked up a lot of gear upgrades - Blood-stained Pauldrons, Swiftsteel Bludgeon, Grips of Silent Justice, Destroyer BP - in the last few weeks, and even on threat sensitive fights twisting Tranquil Air means I don't overshoot my main tank on threat. Not having to worry about that would be nice.
You should put this on the Rogue forum, if you haven't already.
Solid idea. What kind of numbers are we talking about for the sticky poison as far as dodge reduction? I could see rogues in pvp using it on each other if the debuff was high enough. But that would be nice in raids. I bet the arms warriors will be pissed that they can't use Overpower though, haha.
As far as the second poison, there should be cases where its more useful than a warlock'sCurse of Elements, since it would reduce ALL resistances, correct?
I think its a great way to expand on a rogue's role. So far all they have to do is kick to interrupt, and apply wound poison, which is overshadowed by mortal strike anyways. And I don't think mind-numbing poison works on bosses.
Solid idea. What kind of numbers are we talking about for the sticky poison as far as dodge reduction? I could see rogues in pvp using it on each other if the debuff was high enough. But that would be nice in raids. I bet the arms warriors will be pissed that they can't use Overpower though, haha.
As far as the second poison, there should be cases where its more useful than a warlock'sCurse of Elements, since it would reduce ALL resistances, correct?
I think its a great way to expand on a rogue's role. So far all they have to do is kick to interrupt, and apply wound poison, which is overshadowed by mortal strike anyways. And I don't think mind-numbing poison works on bosses.
It would be like crip poison. Only one charge per rogue but it would stack with other rogues, so once you got 3 in the raid mobs will have 0 dodge. In pvp a single rogue could only apply this once for a minimal effect. This would stricktly be a PvE poison as there are much better options for PvP (crip, wound, etc.)
The other poison that lowers spell resist would be capped out at 3 applications as not to lopside things.
The other poison that lowers spell resist would be capped out at 3 applications as not to lopside things.
as far as we're on theory crafting ... warriors need actual CC
1) decapitate - 20 rage - 10 minute cool down
Target must be below 20% hp
Causes you to decapitate your target, with him wandering around looking for his head for 10 seconds. Damage may break this effect early.
2) Throat Thrust - 15 rage - 5 minute CD
You stick your sword into an exposed area of your opponents throat causing him to bleed in horror until the wound closes or until the target is fully healed. Lasts up to 2-8 seconds depending on your weapon damage.
3) headbutt - 30 rage - 2 minute CD
You head butt your enemy causing him to become dazed for 3-5 seconds depending on your strength. Damage will not break this effect.
1) decapitate - 20 rage - 10 minute cool down
Target must be below 20% hp
Causes you to decapitate your target, with him wandering around looking for his head for 10 seconds. Damage may break this effect early.
2) Throat Thrust - 15 rage - 5 minute CD
You stick your sword into an exposed area of your opponents throat causing him to bleed in horror until the wound closes or until the target is fully healed. Lasts up to 2-8 seconds depending on your weapon damage.
3) headbutt - 30 rage - 2 minute CD
You head butt your enemy causing him to become dazed for 3-5 seconds depending on your strength. Damage will not break this effect.
The idea of more utility is a good one, but the idea you've proposed aren't so hot Jim.
Remember that using one of these poison also means the rogue is losing less damage, deadly poison does give decent dps and since most rogue will be in a Windfury group, we're usually only using 1 poison when raiding.
You're right it's not imbalanced, because it's extremely weak.
1 Warrior can increase melee damage by 4%... and you'd need 2 rogues to do the same (by reducing dodge by 4%). So if the choice is between bringing 1 more rogue or 1 more dps warrior, who do you think will be picked based on utility alone?
The Warrior.
The idea behind the poison is not bad, but the number is way to low as suggested. Granted, it can't be imbalanced, but it needs to be actually good.
3 Rogue = +6% dmg
1 Spriest +5% dmg.
>_>
Again, the idea is good... but the numbers are way to low.
All you're doing here, is making people go 'Well, we already have a spriest and a arms warrior. I guess we might as well bring a rogue now'.
Granted, in an ideal scenario I will want 3 rogues + 1 arm war + 1 spriest... but the first one to get the cut will be a rogue.
Strictly from a utility point of view.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 2:05pm by Tyrandor
Remember that using one of these poison also means the rogue is losing less damage, deadly poison does give decent dps and since most rogue will be in a Windfury group, we're usually only using 1 poison when raiding.
Quote:
This poison when applied would reduce a mob's chance to dodge by 2%. It could be stackable from different rogues (only one stack per rogue) for a total of 3 poisons. This would reduce a mobs dodge percentage to 0. Netting an increase of 5.6% melee dmg boost. Not imbalancing in the least when you consider it only takes one warrior to get a 4% dmg increase to melee with blood frenzy.
You're right it's not imbalanced, because it's extremely weak.
1 Warrior can increase melee damage by 4%... and you'd need 2 rogues to do the same (by reducing dodge by 4%). So if the choice is between bringing 1 more rogue or 1 more dps warrior, who do you think will be picked based on utility alone?
The Warrior.
The idea behind the poison is not bad, but the number is way to low as suggested. Granted, it can't be imbalanced, but it needs to be actually good.
Quote:
Second poison could be one that lowers spell resist rate. Couldn't think of anything for a name but you get the idea. This could also stack up to 3 times for a total of 6% increase in spell dmg for casters.
3 Rogue = +6% dmg
1 Spriest +5% dmg.
>_>
Again, the idea is good... but the numbers are way to low.
All you're doing here, is making people go 'Well, we already have a spriest and a arms warrior. I guess we might as well bring a rogue now'.
Granted, in an ideal scenario I will want 3 rogues + 1 arm war + 1 spriest... but the first one to get the cut will be a rogue.
Strictly from a utility point of view.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 2:05pm by Tyrandor
I'd imagine they'd stack with the SP And warrior and SP.
I was assuming they did.
But let's say you've got 24 members in your raid, and you've got a Rogue and Arm Warriors wanting to go in. You know they do about the same dps. You'll bring the Warrior.
The whole point of this change is to give Rogue utility so that they don't get picked only for dmg and don't get benched when a class that can do equal damage and can bring more comes around.
Adding utility ability to rogues that is 1/3 as effective as the one the other class have isn't gonna help that.
But let's say you've got 24 members in your raid, and you've got a Rogue and Arm Warriors wanting to go in. You know they do about the same dps. You'll bring the Warrior.
The whole point of this change is to give Rogue utility so that they don't get picked only for dmg and don't get benched when a class that can do equal damage and can bring more comes around.
Adding utility ability to rogues that is 1/3 as effective as the one the other class have isn't gonna help that.
The Warrior's 4% damage boost is also talented, and talented fairly deep in. This would be a base ability for any Rogue, and it _stacks_: because of the way Misery/Blood Frenzy/whatever is set up, you only want to bring one Shadow Priest/Arms Warrior (well... you want more SPriests because of the mana regen, but that's another issue). If possible that'd be something that is nice to avoid, although... hmm.
Maybe a deep Assassination talent that causes the target to have a reduced chance to Dodge when a poison is applied to the target? The strict damage stacking mechanic does get a little old, and reducing Dodge is a fairly rare mechanic although it'd have poor interaction with Combat Rogues. It would give Mutilatebots a lot more raid utility than they have now. Hmm.... although you could link it to Combo Points too...
Linked to Find Weakness
"Your finishing moves will apply a Exposed Weakness effect to the target. Exposed Weakness increases the damage of all physical attacks against the target by 1/2/3/4/5% for 10 sec."
Yes, I know it's the same name as the Survival Hunter talent, so sue me. You could find something else.
I'd agree that it may be a bit weak with the ones Jimp posted, especially in smaller-group settings, but in this sphere you should be looking at the easiest comparison being Warlock Curses. You can only apply a limited number (and you'd have to figure out how to make that work with these poisons somehow, beyond just "windfury is better": maybe make it offhand only?), they provide significant debuffs but you can increase your personal damage once the target is debuffed by all of these abilities.
So, hm. Reducing dodge is a clever mechanic, but making it more interactive would be interesting... lesse.
Nerveshattering Poison - 51 Points Assassination
Use: Coats a weapon with Nerveshattering Poison.
Nerveshatter Poison
Each strike has a 30% chance of poisoning the enemy, afflicting them with Nerveshattering Poison. Whenever Nerveshattering Poison completes the duration or is dispelled, the target has a 20% chance to be unable to dodge for 10 sec. Stacks 5 times.
Envenom would now dispell this poison, giving Mutilate rogues a unique bit of raid utility while still making them the King of Poisons. It's an intriguing mechanic at least, and has some good potential I think. Hmm...
You could make a minor spell damage boost a core Rogue poison as well. Maybe five stacks, each providing 1/2/3/4/5% more damage? You'd also have to change Vile Poisons to be applicable to all of these effects...
Summary, then:
1) Cool new 51-point Assassination ability, giving Mutilate Rogues a great deal of additional raid utility. Combined with a physical damage debuff, also in the Assassination tree.
2) New base Rogue poison, stackable 5 times, increasing the amount of spell damage taken by the target by 1/2/3/4/5%.
3) Vile Poisons changed to "Increases the effectiveness of all poisons by 20%", makes spell damage poison do 1.2/2.4/3.6/4.8/6% and all poison damage +20%.
Maybe a deep Assassination talent that causes the target to have a reduced chance to Dodge when a poison is applied to the target? The strict damage stacking mechanic does get a little old, and reducing Dodge is a fairly rare mechanic although it'd have poor interaction with Combat Rogues. It would give Mutilatebots a lot more raid utility than they have now. Hmm.... although you could link it to Combo Points too...
Linked to Find Weakness
"Your finishing moves will apply a Exposed Weakness effect to the target. Exposed Weakness increases the damage of all physical attacks against the target by 1/2/3/4/5% for 10 sec."
Yes, I know it's the same name as the Survival Hunter talent, so sue me. You could find something else.
I'd agree that it may be a bit weak with the ones Jimp posted, especially in smaller-group settings, but in this sphere you should be looking at the easiest comparison being Warlock Curses. You can only apply a limited number (and you'd have to figure out how to make that work with these poisons somehow, beyond just "windfury is better": maybe make it offhand only?), they provide significant debuffs but you can increase your personal damage once the target is debuffed by all of these abilities.
So, hm. Reducing dodge is a clever mechanic, but making it more interactive would be interesting... lesse.
Nerveshattering Poison - 51 Points Assassination
Use: Coats a weapon with Nerveshattering Poison.
Nerveshatter Poison
Each strike has a 30% chance of poisoning the enemy, afflicting them with Nerveshattering Poison. Whenever Nerveshattering Poison completes the duration or is dispelled, the target has a 20% chance to be unable to dodge for 10 sec. Stacks 5 times.
Envenom would now dispell this poison, giving Mutilate rogues a unique bit of raid utility while still making them the King of Poisons. It's an intriguing mechanic at least, and has some good potential I think. Hmm...
You could make a minor spell damage boost a core Rogue poison as well. Maybe five stacks, each providing 1/2/3/4/5% more damage? You'd also have to change Vile Poisons to be applicable to all of these effects...
Summary, then:
1) Cool new 51-point Assassination ability, giving Mutilate Rogues a great deal of additional raid utility. Combined with a physical damage debuff, also in the Assassination tree.
2) New base Rogue poison, stackable 5 times, increasing the amount of spell damage taken by the target by 1/2/3/4/5%.
3) Vile Poisons changed to "Increases the effectiveness of all poisons by 20%", makes spell damage poison do 1.2/2.4/3.6/4.8/6% and all poison damage +20%.
Quote:
Remember that using one of these poison also means the rogue is losing less damage,
Same goes for a warrior that specs MS/Slam instead of full fury. Whats the point here?
Quote:
1 Warrior can increase melee damage by 4%... and you'd need 2 rogues to do the same (by reducing dodge by 4%). So if the choice is between bringing 1 more rogue or 1 more dps warrior, who do you think will be picked based on utility alone?
If your already in a 25 man raid you more than likely already have an arms warrior (blood frenzy doesn't stack), and more than likely have a few rogues as well. This will simply give the rogues utility instead of being there solely for dmg. Which is as you said not overbearing enough to justify bring them just for that.
Quote:
The idea behind the poison is not bad, but the number is way to low as suggested. Granted, it can't be imbalanced, but it needs to be actually good.
You could make the poisons reduce by 4% and not be stackable but then only two rogues in the raid have utility.
Quote:
All you're doing here, is making people go 'Well, we already have a spriest and a arms warrior. I guess we might as well bring a rogue now'.
Once again because these will stack with other debuffs so there is no desiding between. Point being there are almost always multiple rogues in a 25man.
Thats like saying we don't need a shadow priest cause we already have blessing of wisdom.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 3:41pm by Jimpadan
Quote:
Same goes for a warrior that specs MS/Slam instead of full fury. Whats the point here?
The point is that if we lower our dps for utility, the utility better be worth it.
And I'm not quite sure it is as presented.
I know this is a draft idea and that the numbers can be moved up and down. I think the idea is good itself, the one thing I can really critic about is the %...
I don't recall anybody ever wanting to bring a druid because of insect swarm and it's 2% to miss increase on bosses...
Quote:
If your already in a 25 man raid you more than likely already have an arms warrior (blood frenzy doesn't stack), and more than likely have a few rogues as well. This will simply give the rogues utility instead of being there solely for dmg. Which is as you said not overbearing enough to justify bring them just for that.
Once again because these will stack with other debuffs so there is no desiding between. Point being there are almost always multiple rogues in a 25man.
Thats like saying we don't need a shadow priest cause we already have blessing of wisdom.
Ironically enough, my guild doesn't have a raiding ms warrior. Our warriors are prot or fury when they raid (We also don't have many warriors at all) and we have 3 solid raiding rogues (we often bring a 4th, but it's a musical chair thing).
Now if we had a geared MS warrior, who's capable of good dps, who just joined (looking at you Quor) and could do similar dps to one of our 3 rogues, we'd put him in, most likely by putting out one of our rogue (hopefully the 4th floating spot).
Now let's take my guild, put in a game where your change is in. Will we take the MS warrior (with his +4% debuff) or a 3rd Rogue, who's going to give us +2% and who's damage advantage over the MS warrior is reduced due to not using a damage poison?
It's not a tough choice to make... even after your utility buff. Which pretty much shows that it doesn't do what it's suppose to do.
This won't help the rogue who gets benched or replaced for 1 more class, this will help the couple rogue that are already in. Because when it comes down to filling up those last few dps spots remaining, in most case you'll still be better off bringing the other class for all it brings over a 2% increase from the rogue.
Quote:
You could make the poisons reduce by 4% and not be stackable but then only two rogues in the raid have utility.
Or you could actually make it better then the Warrior's debuff, so that if the choice is to bring a Warrior or a Rogue for debuff, they pick the Rogue.
After all, remember that all Warriors have battle shout, and when you put that in a melee heavy group, it's a pretty big buff - the 4% from arms is nice, but even non arms warriors have Battleshout. A party buff would be a better way to go about this... you'd want rogues in a couple of groups, rather then this somewhat clumsy 'stacking debuff between rogue' thing imo.
If it was that way, I wouldn't mind warrior being capable to outdps me. I'd bring more utility.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 5:08pm by Tyrandor
Quote:
The point is that if we lower our dps for utility, the utility better be worth it.
And I'm not quite sure it is as presented.
I know this is a draft idea and that the numbers can be moved up and down. I think the idea is good itself, the one thing I can really critic about is the %...
And I'm not quite sure it is as presented.
I know this is a draft idea and that the numbers can be moved up and down. I think the idea is good itself, the one thing I can really critic about is the %...
Is changing your offhand poison really going to lower your personnal dps enough to over shadow the 2% or 4% dps increase to every other melee? I seriously doubt it contributes that much.
Quote:
I don't recall anybody ever wanting to bring a druid because of insect swarm and it's 2% to miss increase on bosses...
True but druids already have tons of utility to begin with and 2% dmg off the tank isn't near as much benefit to the raid than 2% increase melee/spell dmg raid wide.
Quote:
Now if we had a geared MS warrior, who's capable of good dps, who just joined (looking at you Quor) and could do similar dps to one of our 3 rogues, we'd put him in, most likely by putting out one of our rogue (hopefully the 4th floating spot).
You'd be very hard pressed to find a MS/Slam warrior that could do roughly the same dps as an equally geared rogue (especially since the windfury nerf). The point of that spec is yes you lower your personnal dps but you increase everyone elses enough that the raid wide dps is increased by a fair margin.
Quote:
Now let's take my guild, put in a game where your change is in. Will we take the MS warrior (with his +4% debuff) or a 3rd Rogue, who's going to give us +2% and who's damage advantage over the MS warrior is reduced due to not using a damage poison?
It's not a tough choice to make... even after your utility buff. Which pretty much shows that it doesn't do what it's suppose to do.
This won't help the rogue who gets benched or replaced for 1 more class, this will help the couple rogue that are already in. Because when it comes down to filling up those last few dps spots remaining, in most case you'll still be better off bringing the other class for all it brings over a 2% increase from the rogue.
It's not a tough choice to make... even after your utility buff. Which pretty much shows that it doesn't do what it's suppose to do.
This won't help the rogue who gets benched or replaced for 1 more class, this will help the couple rogue that are already in. Because when it comes down to filling up those last few dps spots remaining, in most case you'll still be better off bringing the other class for all it brings over a 2% increase from the rogue.
Once again it's not about choosing between classes. You say yourself you already raid with 3-4 rogues. This is just to give the rogues that are already there some utility.
Quote:
Or you could actually make it better then the Warrior's debuff, so that if the choice is to bring a Warrior or a Rogue for debuff, they pick the Rogue.
After all, remember that all Warriors have battle shout, and when you put that in a melee heavy group, it's a pretty big buff - the 4% from arms is nice, but even non arms warriors have Battleshout. A party buff would be a better way to go about this... you'd want rogues in a couple of groups, rather then this somewhat clumsy 'stacking debuff between rogue' thing imo.
If it was that way, I wouldn't mind warrior being capable to outdps me. I'd bring more utility.
After all, remember that all Warriors have battle shout, and when you put that in a melee heavy group, it's a pretty big buff - the 4% from arms is nice, but even non arms warriors have Battleshout. A party buff would be a better way to go about this... you'd want rogues in a couple of groups, rather then this somewhat clumsy 'stacking debuff between rogue' thing imo.
If it was that way, I wouldn't mind warrior being capable to outdps me. I'd bring more utility.
From what you've said in this thread and the thread I posted in the rogue forum...
Quote:
I'd much rather we do the most damage bare none then have some 'gimmick' utility
Imo your just a player that doesn't want to lower his personnal dps to gain utility.
Posted this before I read RPZ's post. Those are great ideas as well. My entire point for coming up with this was to give rogues some raid utility all ideas are subject to refining.
Edited, Sep 27th 2007 11:59am by Jimpadan
im flatterd tyr, but im pretty sure i couldnt put out the dps of a comparable skilled rogue unless i altered my build and picked up some more pve-compatible gear (i.e. no resilience, more AP). even then a good rogue with the right gear and spec will still trump me.
i think jim is approaching this more from a perspective of "how can we give rogues utility so they stop nerfing warriors" instead of a "lets take some rogue dps and exchange it for utility".
but even if rogue dps was lowered to compensate, warriors still have the disadvantage in the threat war, a problem rogues can solve easily thanks to vanish.
i think jim is approaching this more from a perspective of "how can we give rogues utility so they stop nerfing warriors" instead of a "lets take some rogue dps and exchange it for utility".
but even if rogue dps was lowered to compensate, warriors still have the disadvantage in the threat war, a problem rogues can solve easily thanks to vanish.
It's fairly easy to put one piece of gear in that has a short cooldown that reduces overall threat. sure you lose one dps piece, which hurts, but it should not be an issue on threat. Raiding specifically, salv should always be the first buff for melee dps. And then threat, with even a halfway decent tank, should not be an issue.
Are you talking about those trinkets that reduce threat? From what I understand is they reduce your threat by like 900. Which is a main hand crit for me. If they were chaged to reduce by a percentage say like 5%-10% that would definitely give them a spot in my bag.
The threat reduction trinkets are all pretty worthless. The Timelapse Shard, for example, reduces your threat by 900... which is effected by threat reduction abilities, so it reduces your threat by exactly as much as 900 damage adds to it. It's not going to help.
The Lady Vashj trinket actually works decently, though. You do have to sacrifice a trinket slot but it gives you -150 threat on a Critical Strike. With ~30% Crit Rate I believe that's been calculated out as something like a 10% treat reduction over the course of a fight, which is nice.
Of course, the best threat reduction trinket is _still_ the damn one from Fankriss in AQ40.
The Lady Vashj trinket actually works decently, though. You do have to sacrifice a trinket slot but it gives you -150 threat on a Critical Strike. With ~30% Crit Rate I believe that's been calculated out as something like a 10% treat reduction over the course of a fight, which is nice.
Of course, the best threat reduction trinket is _still_ the damn one from Fankriss in AQ40.
How much threat does that trinket give off?
-50% threat for 20s on a 3m cooldown. Used to be -70% threat at 60 but it got nerfed (slightly) on the way to 70.
Macro that sucker to DW and you've got a huge reduction in your threat output.
Macro that sucker to DW and you've got a huge reduction in your threat output.
I might take my normal heroic team and go try to farm that outta him sometime in the future when threat really becomes an issue.
In... AQ40?
Good luck dropping Skeram. o.O
Good luck dropping Skeram. o.O
Well I was gonna bring other alts around that level as well so they could grab some reasonable upgrades before outlands greens got insane. But the core group would be my normal heroic team. I.e. tank, healer, support, dps.
Not like I'ma try this tomorrow either. Threat isn't really an issue at present save for fights where I'm feed rage like it's candy.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 11:32am by Jimpadan
Not like I'ma try this tomorrow either. Threat isn't really an issue at present save for fights where I'm feed rage like it's candy.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 11:32am by Jimpadan
yes the aq40 was the one I was specifically talking about. But salv > threat problems still. It is definitely not a problem right now.
Quote:
You'd be very hard pressed to find a MS/Slam warrior that could do roughly the same dps as an equally geared rogue (especially since the windfury nerf). The point of that spec is yes you lower your personnal dps but you increase everyone elses enough that the raid wide dps is increased by a fair margin.
If a rogue is bringing more damage then the Warrior and his +4%, then flat out, his utility is not good enough and he won't be taking a rogue's spot.
Utility for utility's sake is pointless.
Quote:
Once again it's not about choosing between classes. You say yourself you already raid with 3-4 rogues. This is just to give the rogues that are already there some utility.
If they are already getting in the raid, then there's no problem is there? Extra utility is nice of course, but I though you were trying to help the rogue that got benched for a dps class that gave more utility?
That's exactly my point, your solution doesn't really help anybody unless your willing to actually make it powerful. Which doesn't seem to be your intent.
Quote:
Imo your just a player that doesn't want to lower his personnal dps to gain utility.
Yeah, that's why I brought my much lesser geared mage to The Eye because we needed an extra poly. Figured all that polymorphing would make look so bad *** on the dps meter.
You got me all figured out.
Quote:
i think jim is approaching this more from a perspective of "how can we give rogues utility so they stop nerfing warriors"
Yes, so that Warriors can get buffed to do more damage then rogues and you'll be able to say 'LAWLZ! Y U QQing? U Got Utilitiez!'
>_>
Like I said, utility for utility's sake is pointless. If all your trying to do is give the class an unnecessary utility ability to shut up Rogue when Warrior get buffed, you're playing at being Machiavelli and your intention are quite misplaced.
Edited, Sep 28th 2007 9:36pm by Tyrandor
...
where did anyone say anything about buffs? maybe jim or someone else mentioned it, but i just want them to stop f*cking nerfing warriors. about the only "buff" id like to see is flurry restored to its old %. if giving rogues a bit more utility without touching their dps is what itll take, then great. as it stands now, with the TM change, you can probably sport an MS war in a raid as an OT and DPS, in addition to a prot MT. that's two slots dedicated to warriors, which leaves plenty for rogues.
youre a reasonable guy tyr, but your warrior envy is getting much stronger as of late, for some reason unbeknownst to me.
where did anyone say anything about buffs? maybe jim or someone else mentioned it, but i just want them to stop f*cking nerfing warriors. about the only "buff" id like to see is flurry restored to its old %. if giving rogues a bit more utility without touching their dps is what itll take, then great. as it stands now, with the TM change, you can probably sport an MS war in a raid as an OT and DPS, in addition to a prot MT. that's two slots dedicated to warriors, which leaves plenty for rogues.
youre a reasonable guy tyr, but your warrior envy is getting much stronger as of late, for some reason unbeknownst to me.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=4;mid=1190826740147703342;num=21;page=1
I was lured here by this, Quor.
I suppose I was mislead, I though this was a serious discussion about giving Rogue good utility that the class needed - not a patchwork solution to shut them up.
Since that appears to be the case, I truly have nothing else to add to the topic.
And the warrior envy line is cute, but I honestly have no issue with the current role of warriors & rogues in pve, don't quite see how it applies here.
Quote:
Just something to give you guys some utility. I can't go a day without hearing a rogue scream about how they lost a spot in a raid due to "insert class here" being able to do equal dmg but providing more to the raid.
I was lured here by this, Quor.
I suppose I was mislead, I though this was a serious discussion about giving Rogue good utility that the class needed - not a patchwork solution to shut them up.
Since that appears to be the case, I truly have nothing else to add to the topic.
And the warrior envy line is cute, but I honestly have no issue with the current role of warriors & rogues in pve, don't quite see how it applies here.
Recent Visitors: 203
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (203)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Old subject but interesting theory.
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC