H'okay, so, I get a lot of positive comments and am told that I play my class well and have never had any negative feedback until this new rogue joins the guild and starts trashing my DPS. So after a week or two of his **** getting to me I download a damage meter to see for myself.
For the most part in 5 mans I'm usually 1st or 2nd on the meter but in raids I'm either not on the top 5 or just... not there, you know? In the beginning I was at least 3rd but now it seems that I can't even compete. Its pathetic and wtf.
I want to say its because I tend to favor kidney shot more than anything else. Or that, I've never had problems before and I must at least be doing something right to get this far without complaints. But I would assume, though I'm not very game mechanics savvy, that I should be out-dpsing a rogue with lower stats all around and the only upperhand would be that he has a Big Bad Wolf Paw and I'm still using blue weapons.
Am I doing something horribly wrong here? Do I not have enough experience raiding yet? why do I suck all of a sudden? D:
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mamosa wrote:
H'okay, so, I get a lot of positive comments and am told that I play my class well and have never had any negative feedback until this new rogue joins the guild and starts trashing my DPS. So after a week or two of his sh*t getting to me I download a damage meter to see for myself.
For the most part in 5 mans I'm usually 1st or 2nd on the meter but in raids I'm either not on the top 5 or just... not there, you know? In the beginning I was at least 3rd but now it seems that I can't even compete. Its pathetic and wtf.
I want to say its because I tend to favor kidney shot more than anything else. Or that, I've never had problems before and I must at least be doing something right to get this far without complaints. But I would assume, though I'm not very game mechanics savvy, that I should be out-dpsing a rogue with lower stats all around and the only upperhand would be that he has a Big Bad Wolf Paw and I'm still using blue weapons.
Am I doing something horribly wrong here? Do I not have enough experience raiding yet? why do I suck all of a sudden? D:
For the most part in 5 mans I'm usually 1st or 2nd on the meter but in raids I'm either not on the top 5 or just... not there, you know? In the beginning I was at least 3rd but now it seems that I can't even compete. Its pathetic and wtf.
I want to say its because I tend to favor kidney shot more than anything else. Or that, I've never had problems before and I must at least be doing something right to get this far without complaints. But I would assume, though I'm not very game mechanics savvy, that I should be out-dpsing a rogue with lower stats all around and the only upperhand would be that he has a Big Bad Wolf Paw and I'm still using blue weapons.
Am I doing something horribly wrong here? Do I not have enough experience raiding yet? why do I suck all of a sudden? D:
If your guild is content with your game play, then you don't suck. There's more to life than DPS, such as not being an *** to everyone.
With that being said, its most likely a simple fix such as reevaluating your attack sequence.
When raiding and such, there's not much use in kidney shots when there are other options that will enhance your DPS.
Without knowing what spec you are or what gear you have, it would be difficult to say what sequence you should use.
Demea posted a rogue beginner's guide that explores the merits of the various builds in detail and I believe it includes preferred attack sequences.
Include an armory link so we can scope your gear and build, it would make it alot easier to suggest some improvements or playstyle changes.
For starters though, I would forego kidney shot unless you are soloing and would use slice-n-dice for the first finisher and rupture for subsequent finishers. This will vary somewhat ie you may need to reapply slice-n-dice or if the mob is near death you can finish it with eviscerate.
Once again, its a little tricky to make suggestions without seeing your build and gear.
edit: Okay, just noticed your armory link lol. As I said, its most likely your attack sequence. Your gear looks fine and you have the numbers in crit/hit/attack power to do good DPS.
Having never played fists, I won't swear to this but your sequence should be fairly standard. Start with a 2 or 3 point slice-n-dice and then sinister strike 5pts and rupture. Reapply slice-n-dice as needed and trade rupture for eviscerate/envenom when the mob is within finishing range.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 5:26am by Jamboo
I don't want to BS you.You should know the answer better but I can say this:
1.KS don't rise your dps on charts.SnD,Rupture do.
2.He knows the instance much better then you.
3.He gets a better group then you.(Feral druid, Survival Hunter, Enha Shaman etc).
This could be one of the reasons he > you.
Your spec is ok.
1.KS don't rise your dps on charts.SnD,Rupture do.
2.He knows the instance much better then you.
3.He gets a better group then you.(Feral druid, Survival Hunter, Enha Shaman etc).
This could be one of the reasons he > you.
Your spec is ok.
mamosa wrote:
H'okay, so, I get a lot of positive comments and am told that I play my class well and have never had any negative feedback until this new rogue joins the guild and starts trashing my DPS. So after a week or two of his sh*t getting to me I download a damage meter to see for myself.
For the most part in 5 mans I'm usually 1st or 2nd on the meter but in raids I'm either not on the top 5 or just... not there, you know? In the beginning I was at least 3rd but now it seems that I can't even compete. Its pathetic and wtf.
I want to say its because I tend to favor kidney shot more than anything else. Or that, I've never had problems before and I must at least be doing something right to get this far without complaints. But I would assume, though I'm not very game mechanics savvy, that I should be out-dpsing a rogue with lower stats all around and the only upperhand would be that he has a Big Bad Wolf Paw and I'm still using blue weapons.
Am I doing something horribly wrong here? Do I not have enough experience raiding yet? why do I suck all of a sudden? D:
For the most part in 5 mans I'm usually 1st or 2nd on the meter but in raids I'm either not on the top 5 or just... not there, you know? In the beginning I was at least 3rd but now it seems that I can't even compete. Its pathetic and wtf.
I want to say its because I tend to favor kidney shot more than anything else. Or that, I've never had problems before and I must at least be doing something right to get this far without complaints. But I would assume, though I'm not very game mechanics savvy, that I should be out-dpsing a rogue with lower stats all around and the only upperhand would be that he has a Big Bad Wolf Paw and I'm still using blue weapons.
Am I doing something horribly wrong here? Do I not have enough experience raiding yet? why do I suck all of a sudden? D:
BBW compared to your craptastic blues can be a huge damage difference, honestly.
Your gear and stats are decent (though any rogue that takes raiding seriously will laugh if you call yourself a raider because lolKara isn't raiding), but it sounds like you're a complete newb when it comes to actually playing your class.
Stuns are worthless in PvE content. Worthless. I don't care that you have 2 pc Assassination, you're giving up a huge chunk of damage for that stun. With your gear, you're going to be doing a 3s/5r rotation of finishers, meaning SS 3 times, use SnD, then SS 5 times and use Rupture. Repeat until mob is dead.
Of course on trash, usually you start out with a 1 point SnD then just build CPs and Evis as the mob is almost dead.
Getting 2nd in 5 mans should make you feel ashamed, honestly. I've been anywhere from 50-75% of the total party damage with my bad gear in PuGs, so unless you're rolling with guildies or people who are decked out in T4/5, you honestly should feel really bad if you're not #1 in DPS.
47 posts
If anyone was wondering, this is the guy he's comparing himself to.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz+Modan&n=Silentslayin
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz+Modan&n=Silentslayin
I will say that your spec is better than his; sword AND mace spec ftl.
Silentslayin is swords and fists.
And Qrisco uses ks for 160 haste rating for 6 second because he have 2 pieces of assasination i just saw that and can be a good idea (need math)if he uses 1 combo point kidney shot.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 8:07am by EtherealSin
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 8:08am by EtherealSin
And Qrisco uses ks for 160 haste rating for 6 second because he have 2 pieces of assasination i just saw that and can be a good idea (need math)if he uses 1 combo point kidney shot.
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 8:07am by EtherealSin
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 8:08am by EtherealSin
47 posts
I only see 1 piece of assassination.
I never took into consideration if rupture would work on some of the harder trash or boss fights in Kara. Most of the time I'm either kicking something, chasing something and/or OTing something.
I guess I'll have to get out of the habit of stunning so much.
I guess I'll have to get out of the habit of stunning so much.
The haste buff isn't worth the CPs and Energy. I used to love it back when you got the buff even if KS failed, so I'd use KS every time it was up on stun immunes for an 8 energy (how much it cost after Quick Recovery) haste increase.
As Swords/Fists/Maces without 2 Pieces of T4, your rotation should be 2S/5R. Your opener should be Garrote on all mobs that can be bled. CS on those that can't. If they're stun and bleed proof, don't bother even going into stealth, just open with SS.
Now, as for your rotation. 2S/5R will occasionally leave you with about a one second period of no Slice and Dice. This is perfectly fine. The extra speed in getting Rupture back up will make up for the very small amount of damage lost. A faster offhand helps close the gap by getting extra Combat Potency procs. If you find you're not getting SnD up again fast enough, just switch to 3S/5R.
A good combat cycle makes all the difference for our DPS. I'm sure the other Rogue has his down, and that's where most of the damage difference is coming from. His vastly superior weapon is likely helping a lot as well.
As Swords/Fists/Maces without 2 Pieces of T4, your rotation should be 2S/5R. Your opener should be Garrote on all mobs that can be bled. CS on those that can't. If they're stun and bleed proof, don't bother even going into stealth, just open with SS.
Now, as for your rotation. 2S/5R will occasionally leave you with about a one second period of no Slice and Dice. This is perfectly fine. The extra speed in getting Rupture back up will make up for the very small amount of damage lost. A faster offhand helps close the gap by getting extra Combat Potency procs. If you find you're not getting SnD up again fast enough, just switch to 3S/5R.
A good combat cycle makes all the difference for our DPS. I'm sure the other Rogue has his down, and that's where most of the damage difference is coming from. His vastly superior weapon is likely helping a lot as well.
Jamboo the Ludicrous wrote:
Demea posted a rogue beginner's guide that explores the merits of the various builds in detail and I believe it includes preferred attack sequences.
Actually, it doesn't, but that sounds like a great idea for a future update.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
I'm actually working on something that will contain some info about attack sequences. Basically, it's an advanced mechanics guide. I realized that the vast majority of the stuff we do here is to help the very beginners, but we don't do a whole lot for those who know what they're doing, and want to know the specifics of how mechanics work, or why something works the way it does.
Fine. Steal my thunder. Rain on my parade. Pee in my Cheerios.
One of these days, Alice....
I'm busy anyways, so nyah!
One of these days, Alice....
I'm busy anyways, so nyah!
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Heh, no stealing of thunder intended. It's not going to be an in depth combat cycles discussion, just a glossing over. It's centered more for mechanics and math stuff. Things like calculating the benefit of haste from multiple sources, effective DPS calculations, comparison of +hit to +crit, etc.
Things you'd want to know to see exactly how a piece of gear will effect you.
Things you'd want to know to see exactly how a piece of gear will effect you.
Quote:
Things you'd want to know to see exactly how a piece of gear will effect you.
Isn't there a spreadsheet that accomplishes that exact same purpose?
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Warchief Demea wrote:
Quote:
Things you'd want to know to see exactly how a piece of gear will effect you.
Isn't there a spreadsheet that accomplishes that exact same purpose?
Yes. But I can see the merit in Nooble wanting to make a thread about it. A calculator doesn't tell you why.
Yes, but some people want to know why. I usually verify the spreadsheet when I think the results are a little fishy (it's generally right, though). Anyway, it's not meant to be used to sit down and analyze each piece of gear, but to provide an understanding of why. There are some things not convered in the spreadsheet either, like why it's better to stack haste effects than to use them separately, or how +hit effects enchant/poison procs.
oooh new nooble guide
/salivate
/salivate
Theophany the Sly wrote:
Stuns are worthless in PvE content. Worthless. I don't care that you have 2 pc Assassination, you're giving up a huge chunk of damage for that stun. With your gear, you're going to be doing a 3s/5r rotation of finishers, meaning SS 3 times, use SnD, then SS 5 times and use Rupture. Repeat until mob is dead.
Not completely but close.
I use kidney shot in groups but very rarely. If it looks like the tank might go down I'll throw it on the mob to buy just a tad of time for the healer to get that next heal off.
I use it solo sometimes when the mobs hit hard and I need to buy more time.
But I always make sure SnD is up and I usually use damage finishers instead.
As the others have already said, don't waste your time with KS. The only time I'd consider using it is if another finisher would put you over the threat line. In Kara, it's really only usable for the trash leading up to the first 4 bosses. After that pretty much everything is immune. Rupture is only an option for the Maiden, Wizard of Oz, BBW, Ilhoof, and Prince. Almost all trash is immune. So you're basically going to want to keep SnD up at all times and Evis when you have enough CP and SnD is still up.
Overall your gear is significantly better than the rogue that you're comparing yourself to, with the exception of your weapons. Unfortunately weapons are the most important piece of gear for a rogue. I know the 71 dps weapons are the best you can do outside of Kara/Arenas/BGs, but do what you can to pick something up from one of these places. It's where you're going to see the biggest improvement.
It's surprising that you say that you're not even in the top 5 of your kara group. Either the rest of your party significantly out-gears you, or something is seriously wrong. You should be in the top 1-2 (depending on how many rogues are there) by a comfortable margin. There's no way that just using Evis/Rupture is causing this disparity. It has to be a problem with your cycle. Either that or a problem with how you're measuring the DPS. If your group tends to AoE a lot, then the meter can be quite skewed.
Other than that, there's not much advice to give.
::edit::
Forgot to mention that I'm really looking forward to the latest Nooble/Demea guide on advanced mechanics. Should be a great read :)
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 1:54pm by CamelToad
Overall your gear is significantly better than the rogue that you're comparing yourself to, with the exception of your weapons. Unfortunately weapons are the most important piece of gear for a rogue. I know the 71 dps weapons are the best you can do outside of Kara/Arenas/BGs, but do what you can to pick something up from one of these places. It's where you're going to see the biggest improvement.
It's surprising that you say that you're not even in the top 5 of your kara group. Either the rest of your party significantly out-gears you, or something is seriously wrong. You should be in the top 1-2 (depending on how many rogues are there) by a comfortable margin. There's no way that just using Evis/Rupture is causing this disparity. It has to be a problem with your cycle. Either that or a problem with how you're measuring the DPS. If your group tends to AoE a lot, then the meter can be quite skewed.
Other than that, there's not much advice to give.
::edit::
Forgot to mention that I'm really looking forward to the latest Nooble/Demea guide on advanced mechanics. Should be a great read :)
Edited, Sep 26th 2007 1:54pm by CamelToad
EtherealSin wrote:
Silentslayin is swords and fists.
And Qrisco uses ks for 160 haste rating for 6 second because he have 2 pieces of assasination i just saw that and can be a good idea (need math)if he uses 1 combo point kidney shot.
And Qrisco uses ks for 160 haste rating for 6 second because he have 2 pieces of assasination i just saw that and can be a good idea (need math)if he uses 1 combo point kidney shot.
No, you're dumb. It's not worth the energy.
mamosa wrote:
I never took into consideration if rupture would work on some of the harder trash or boss fights in Kara. Most of the time I'm either kicking something, chasing something and/or OTing something.
I guess I'll have to get out of the habit of stunning so much.
I guess I'll have to get out of the habit of stunning so much.
You shouldn't be stunning anyway. SnD, Rupture, and Evis should be the only finishers you use in PvE.
Sure, I'm dumb, Mrs. You don't know wow, you have -1 IQ.
Quote:
Sure, I'm dumb, Mrs. You don't know wow, you have -1 IQ.
Why would you possibly flame Theo? Even if he is being an ***, he almost certainly has math, experience, and probably everything else he need to back the point hes making.
Plus he wins flame wars, end of story.
EtherealSin wrote:
Sure, I'm dumb, Mrs. You don't know wow, you have -1 IQ.
Have you ever seen the inside of Naxx as a rogue?
Have you ever raided since BC came out (and Kara doesn't count) as a rogue?
If you can't say yes to both questions, and have better gear than I do (1582 AP, 25% crit, 234 hit), don't bother starting a flame war with me. I know more than you ever will.
If you're not overly concerned about dps but about the speed of the run and raid utility. go ahead and use improved kidney shot to speed up the run time whenever possible. 5% extra damage from ALL damage sources, + slightly less damage on the tank/offtank on non immune mobs = faster run and a little less problems for the run overall. If you're providing utility to the raid, I don't know a good guild that won't overlook you for not being the top 3 in dps. If you're gimping others in the raid for the sake of being the top 3 in dps. I'm pretty sure there are allot of other rogues out there who are willing to take your place.
any guild master who knows the rogue class (and is tank or dps) will see your contribution and ignore the rogue who says oh but I have higher dps than he does. specially if he realizes the other rogue is benefiting from the energy/potential dps you spent to give EVERYONE an extra short term 5% damage boost. Quite frankly it should be the job of ALL party members in maximizing the raid damage rather than individual damage.
Just for those who are unsure, the following are a list of items I can recall offhand about raid damage items inflicted on the mob.
warlock curse of shadows to increase the dps of the shadow priest for the extra mana/life back through damage and other warlock damage
Warlock Curse of elements increase mage, destro warlock elemental shaman and such dps.
druid fairy fire. It stacks with the normal warrior sunder for more armor reduction. if you're one of the only druids in raid, you'd best get used to wasting mana to cast it on all mobs if you're moonkin or time the cooldown to cast if you're feral. don't bother switching to caster form from tree of life if you're resto.
Druid maul. increase all bleeds ie warrior, rogue or your own.
priest Misery, shadow weaving ect. they stack the shadow damage for warlock and shadow priest damage.
Paladin .. nothing I specifically know about that increases damage except. holy damage... and noone I know wants a smiter priest for a raid.
Rogue. as stated improved kidney shot. and expose armor if no warrior (or feral druid or paladin tank/offtank)
any guild master who knows the rogue class (and is tank or dps) will see your contribution and ignore the rogue who says oh but I have higher dps than he does. specially if he realizes the other rogue is benefiting from the energy/potential dps you spent to give EVERYONE an extra short term 5% damage boost. Quite frankly it should be the job of ALL party members in maximizing the raid damage rather than individual damage.
Just for those who are unsure, the following are a list of items I can recall offhand about raid damage items inflicted on the mob.
warlock curse of shadows to increase the dps of the shadow priest for the extra mana/life back through damage and other warlock damage
Warlock Curse of elements increase mage, destro warlock elemental shaman and such dps.
druid fairy fire. It stacks with the normal warrior sunder for more armor reduction. if you're one of the only druids in raid, you'd best get used to wasting mana to cast it on all mobs if you're moonkin or time the cooldown to cast if you're feral. don't bother switching to caster form from tree of life if you're resto.
Druid maul. increase all bleeds ie warrior, rogue or your own.
priest Misery, shadow weaving ect. they stack the shadow damage for warlock and shadow priest damage.
Paladin .. nothing I specifically know about that increases damage except. holy damage... and noone I know wants a smiter priest for a raid.
Rogue. as stated improved kidney shot. and expose armor if no warrior (or feral druid or paladin tank/offtank)
That still doesn't make you anything more than an annoying ******* Theo.
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