http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mok'Nathal&n=Durek
link to his build and gear. so far i don't really see anything wrong gear-wise except for a better wep and trinkets, with the build i recommended that he take out points from imp revenge and imp shield wall to put into last stand and 1h wep spec. we were doing a guild run of slabs to get the guild priest his first kara frag, and the MT was having a bit of trouble keeping multiple mobs on him (our only cc was ice trap and seduce which was later replaced by sap). i recommended that he throw a tclap in to keep the other mobs on him, but he said he might have trouble doing that because his rage gen was slow, high armor was mitigating the damage so he wasn't getting enough rage from being hit.
i only have about 10k armor in my tank gear and spec and i don't have trouble throwing tclaps around when i need to. am i missing something here?
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guild's MT prot war having rage gen issuesFollow
It depends on his tanking routine. If he's spamming things like sunder and heroic strikes for threat, he's gonna be spending alot of rage on single target threat. If he just revenged and tclaped, maybe a shield slam, he should have not a problem with rage gen in the gear he's in.
He's not spec'd imp tclap, which for tanking is a no no (IMHO).
No last stand is generally a bad Idea. This is a primary ability for warrior tanking. The famous 'oh sh*t' buttons that warrior have.
He's specced booming voice... which doesn't make much sense to me. Cruelty should be a base 5 points of every build any warrior ever considers. He's spec'd imp sunder and imp taunt, which are both bad habit forming. At 70 we should be shying away from using sunder as a main threat builder and taunts cooldown shouldn't be a problem.
Imp revenge is actually a nice ability for heroic instances, but in raids it's mostly useless as mobs are 'immune' or have very high resists.
Imp heroic strike should be one of the talents that tanks should consider, but it's not at all necessary to have, and generally you don't get the extra points to throw into it.
As for gear, the tank isn't overly geared, and is lacking in the avoidance. But the highish armor values should not prevent his rage generation all that much. If he has 2+ mobs on him, he should be able to tclap every cooldown, and still keep revenge on cooldown, and probably even throw in a shield slam once in a while (spread the love).
The major problem I see is that they are not specc'd imp tclap, and they have imp taunt. They could use some more avoidance, but for rage gen you want higher armor and shield block values, not more avoidance.
::EDIT::
gotta remember to put n't and double negative things more... >.<
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 4:01pm by devioususer
He's not spec'd imp tclap, which for tanking is a no no (IMHO).
No last stand is generally a bad Idea. This is a primary ability for warrior tanking. The famous 'oh sh*t' buttons that warrior have.
He's specced booming voice... which doesn't make much sense to me. Cruelty should be a base 5 points of every build any warrior ever considers. He's spec'd imp sunder and imp taunt, which are both bad habit forming. At 70 we should be shying away from using sunder as a main threat builder and taunts cooldown shouldn't be a problem.
Imp revenge is actually a nice ability for heroic instances, but in raids it's mostly useless as mobs are 'immune' or have very high resists.
Imp heroic strike should be one of the talents that tanks should consider, but it's not at all necessary to have, and generally you don't get the extra points to throw into it.
As for gear, the tank isn't overly geared, and is lacking in the avoidance. But the highish armor values should not prevent his rage generation all that much. If he has 2+ mobs on him, he should be able to tclap every cooldown, and still keep revenge on cooldown, and probably even throw in a shield slam once in a while (spread the love).
The major problem I see is that they are not specc'd imp tclap, and they have imp taunt. They could use some more avoidance, but for rage gen you want higher armor and shield block values, not more avoidance.
::EDIT::
gotta remember to put n't and double negative things more... >.<
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 4:01pm by devioususer
Give us a WWS parse so we can see what abilities he's using and how often. That's a really good indicator of what needs to change. I haven't been threat capped since I pointed out that Devastate fails for threat compared to SS and Revenge.
sorry, you're gonna have to explain WWS to me. is it an addon that tracks ability use through the combat log or something?
I learn so much from these posts. As a new tank, I appreciate the time and thought put into these posts. By asking this question, you have given me an opportunity to learn.
Thanks
B
Thanks
B
Quote:
As for gear, the tank isn't overly geared, and is lacking in the avoidance. But the highish armor values should not prevent his rage generation all that much. If he has 2+ mobs on him, he should be able to tclap every cooldown, and still keep revenge on cooldown, and probably even throw in a shield slam once in a while (spread the love).
his armor isn't really that high tbh for kara. The main overall thing that bugs me (before I go into talents) is his lack of stamina for what seems to be at first glance, a decent set of gear. He needs to run BM, that quest alone will put him right next to revered, then he can grab the pants from there and the helm enchant which will give him probably the biggest boost of stats / avoidance. Also, if he gets something like http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?source=live;witem=30278 even that will be better than what he has now.
He shouldn't be socketing for defense unless it's to hit a DESIRABLE socket bonus (ex: sockets blue/green; bonus +4 stamina -- you'd put the stam gem in blue, then stam/def gem in green so you only miss out 2 stamina, but gain defense, decent trade off.) However, if it's a negligible set bonus [3 str or agi] there is no point to get it as a tanking warrior. strength scales awfully with shield slam and agi, while nice, isn't too necessary.
ahh now for the talent portion.
WHAT IS THAT IDIOT THINKING?
I'll just go through it and see what he shouldn't have...
booming voice... WTF? oh boy 1 extra minute for absolutely nothing! obviously 10 rage is too hard to come by every 2 minutes so it's definitely worth it right? WRONG, he even has imp. bloodrage to get MORE rage, there is ABSOLUTELY NO POINT IN THAT TALENT as a tank.
TM... uh.. for what exactly? he's not doing nightbane, and again, (5) rage isn't hard to come by with bosses/mobs/players beating on you. He didn't even get the full points to make it semi-worthy.
imp bloodrage -- ok... not too bad of a choice IF HE WAS ALL DONE WITH THE PROT TREE AND HAD 2 POINTS FLOATING AROUND! he doesn't even have last stand?! /gkick for utter idiocy ffs imo.
improved revenge -- yeah this probably has something to do with his rage gen... he can't really get rage when nothing is hitting him (nor is he doing any damage at all)
improve taunt -- only viable in BT and MH really when mobs hit like trucks and most dpsers don't follow the threat meters tooooooo much as it's trash.
improved shield bash - yes, I guess when you're facing SO many bosses that can cast (and even more so, are able to get silenced) it's a viable talent
PAUSE NOT
COMPLETELY WORTHLESS! if I were you, I'd throw him off a cliff, he's stealing my oxygen.
imp. sunder armor -- again, decent filler points, but again, he's not done getting the points he needs.
now what he NEEDS:
imp tclap - ofc healers are pulling aggro, he doesn't have any clue of how to play a warrior the way he's specced! imp tclap will keep all healing aggro (but not split dps) on the warrior. he NEEDS TO GET IT... NOW
Cruelty ... hmm crits = more damage/threat = more rage... yeah, I guess he is right, this talent seems pretty worthless /rollseyes
toughness needs to be 5/5 for obvious reasons... just like how one would think getting last stand would be obvious too... I see my fault in my logic now.
5/5 weapon spec. also, more damage = more rage, is it really that hard to comprehend?
here's a spec that took me 2 seconds to fill out - http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Li0cZVZbEtoh0dcest
greatness all wrapped up in a nice easy to comprehend link. enjoy.
Just from what I seen on missing (w/o looking at your armory page). After the 5 saunders, are you throwing in a shield block here and there? That's a guarenteed Revenge. It's pretty cheap on the rage cost too. I've yet to do heroics. I'm getting there tho. Just a suggestion.
whoa whoa easy on the insults, this is my GM and all of us in the guild have a lot to learn. i sent him an ingame mail regarding some of the more important changes (imp tclap, last stand, cruelty, 1h wep spec), but have not spoken to him yet if he has reassigned his talent points.
i agree that imp tclap makes a big difference, i have it in my spec (17/44/0) and when i have to tank multiple mobs i don't usually have a problem unless DPS is split.
on a side note, i love spell reflect and shield bash for pulling/tanking/offtanking caster mobs. i usually ask to offtank the caster mobs as i can keep spell reflect and shield bash up on them and almost never get hit by a spell, and their weaker melee attacks mean that the healer doesn't have to heal me as much or as often.
i agree that imp tclap makes a big difference, i have it in my spec (17/44/0) and when i have to tank multiple mobs i don't usually have a problem unless DPS is split.
on a side note, i love spell reflect and shield bash for pulling/tanking/offtanking caster mobs. i usually ask to offtank the caster mobs as i can keep spell reflect and shield bash up on them and almost never get hit by a spell, and their weaker melee attacks mean that the healer doesn't have to heal me as much or as often.
Quote:
his armor isn't really that high tbh for kara.
I didn't mean it was high for raiding. I meant it looked like he specced for armor value not other stats.
12.2K armor with mostly blues and a splash of greens and boe epics. Which is pretty high for blues.
The spec and some key pieces of gear need to change, if they want to be considered a valuable and useful tank.
They are a blacksmith, they should make all the felsteel set, put 9/12 stam gems in all the sockets. Stamina > all other stats.
They are using an arcane resist belt, and the insignia of the alliance (??). They could use a real tanking belt and a better trinket right off the bat.
I realize they are probably in a flying set atm, since the boots have mithral spurs on them... but still...
The weapon could be changed out for a XXX green lvl 70 of the champion. Or better yet, get the rep reward one from hellfire pen. Even just getting Grom tors charge. Which is an easy enough thing if your guild is helping you (chain quest in shadowmoon valley.)
Next is the enchants. They suck. Don't put armor kits on gear. Put real enchants on tanking gear. stamina, str, or defense. 40 armor is not cutting it.
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 4:47pm by devioususer
Aside from the talent tree issue, gear seems to be the next problem. You can start running 5mans to get the dungeon tanking set.
Legplates of the Bold can be found in the Black Morass.
Shoulderguards of the Bold can be found in Shadow Labs.
Those two are at least better than what he has right now. He can go for the full set if he wants but by the looks of the craftables, I don't know why he would want the helm. He can run Heroic Mana Tombs for the blue BoP tanking boots if he wants. I'm just trying to get him more tank oriented gear, nothing special, just some starter gear. Rings; Andormu's Tear is nice for tanking.
Looks like he needs to get revered with alot of factions so he can start running heroics for better gear. Well good luck with the gear hunt!
Legplates of the Bold can be found in the Black Morass.
Shoulderguards of the Bold can be found in Shadow Labs.
Those two are at least better than what he has right now. He can go for the full set if he wants but by the looks of the craftables, I don't know why he would want the helm. He can run Heroic Mana Tombs for the blue BoP tanking boots if he wants. I'm just trying to get him more tank oriented gear, nothing special, just some starter gear. Rings; Andormu's Tear is nice for tanking.
Looks like he needs to get revered with alot of factions so he can start running heroics for better gear. Well good luck with the gear hunt!
eee strength isn't really viable, you should get agility over that on gloves for the added mitigation. The rest of what you are saying though I agree with 100%.
froman did he ebay this said warrior? ;)
and lastly, I was looking at your armory, a few things to note.
1) for max dps, try to pick up some swords or maces (the haste one is pretty sick!) since you have the racial bonus. weapon skill is absolutely amazing for dps.
2) I noticed you have mixed AP and strength sockets/enchants. Whenever possible go for strength. You will benefit a lot more from this when you start hitting instances with 2 or more paladins (might + kings = win). This is because kings will give you more AP / point of strength, they 2 stats are no longer equal like they were pre tbc. get the strength on bracers and hands, and on feet either get the hit rating/snare resist one, or the agility one. also, get things like +6 all to stats on chest and the CE enchant on your helm if you possibly can :).
3) get the pvp bracers/belt (and feet possibly) if you can. Those 2/3 pieces of gear will give you more AP and crit than what you have now.
questionable-- take one point from imp ww and put it into 5/5 weapon damage. this really depends on your raid makeup, what kind of consumables/gems you use and what your hit rating is at... so it's questionable.
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 7:28pm by russki
froman did he ebay this said warrior? ;)
and lastly, I was looking at your armory, a few things to note.
1) for max dps, try to pick up some swords or maces (the haste one is pretty sick!) since you have the racial bonus. weapon skill is absolutely amazing for dps.
2) I noticed you have mixed AP and strength sockets/enchants. Whenever possible go for strength. You will benefit a lot more from this when you start hitting instances with 2 or more paladins (might + kings = win). This is because kings will give you more AP / point of strength, they 2 stats are no longer equal like they were pre tbc. get the strength on bracers and hands, and on feet either get the hit rating/snare resist one, or the agility one. also, get things like +6 all to stats on chest and the CE enchant on your helm if you possibly can :).
3) get the pvp bracers/belt (and feet possibly) if you can. Those 2/3 pieces of gear will give you more AP and crit than what you have now.
questionable-- take one point from imp ww and put it into 5/5 weapon damage. this really depends on your raid makeup, what kind of consumables/gems you use and what your hit rating is at... so it's questionable.
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 7:28pm by russki
judging from his focused rage and imp heroic talents, i'm guessing he's killing his rage gen by spamming heroics too early in the fight.
tell him not to hit heroic strike until ALL of the following conditions are met:
shield slam on cooldown
shield block on cooldown
revenge on cooldown
5 sunders on mob
sunder timer over 8 secs remaining
tclap debuff over 10 secs remaining
demo shout debuff over 10 secs remaining
over 45 rage
THEN he can start spamming heroics
tell him not to hit heroic strike until ALL of the following conditions are met:
shield slam on cooldown
shield block on cooldown
revenge on cooldown
5 sunders on mob
sunder timer over 8 secs remaining
tclap debuff over 10 secs remaining
demo shout debuff over 10 secs remaining
over 45 rage
THEN he can start spamming heroics
russki wrote:
1) for max dps, try to pick up some swords or maces (the haste one is pretty sick!) since you have the racial bonus. weapon skill is absolutely amazing for dps.
2) I noticed you have mixed AP and strength sockets/enchants. Whenever possible go for strength. You will benefit a lot more from this when you start hitting instances with 2 or more paladins (might + kings = win). This is because kings will give you more AP / point of strength, they 2 stats are no longer equal like they were pre tbc. get the strength on bracers and hands, and on feet either get the hit rating/snare resist one, or the agility one. also, get things like +6 all to stats on chest and the CE enchant on your helm if you possibly can :).
3) get the pvp bracers/belt (and feet possibly) if you can. Those 2/3 pieces of gear will give you more AP and crit than what you have now.
questionable-- take one point from imp ww and put it into 5/5 weapon damage. this really depends on your raid makeup, what kind of consumables/gems you use and what your hit rating is at... so it's questionable.
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 7:28pm by russki
2) I noticed you have mixed AP and strength sockets/enchants. Whenever possible go for strength. You will benefit a lot more from this when you start hitting instances with 2 or more paladins (might + kings = win). This is because kings will give you more AP / point of strength, they 2 stats are no longer equal like they were pre tbc. get the strength on bracers and hands, and on feet either get the hit rating/snare resist one, or the agility one. also, get things like +6 all to stats on chest and the CE enchant on your helm if you possibly can :).
3) get the pvp bracers/belt (and feet possibly) if you can. Those 2/3 pieces of gear will give you more AP and crit than what you have now.
questionable-- take one point from imp ww and put it into 5/5 weapon damage. this really depends on your raid makeup, what kind of consumables/gems you use and what your hit rating is at... so it's questionable.
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 7:28pm by russki
i've been considering going hammersmith in case i want to switch to 2h fury with deep thunder. after the farming i went through to get the mats for the planar edge though... it makes me wanna cry thinking i have to go through that again QQ
last night, i finally found someone who can do 15 str to gloves and 12 str to bracers, so i have those enchants on those pieces of gear. the same guy was also doing cat's swiftness (minor run speed/6 agi) and greater agi (7 agi) but i was already broke =( .
i'm about halfway through revered with ogri'la and should be exalted in a week's time, so i'm going for the vortex walking boots. bracers, i'll probably get black felsteel bracers from my GM and put a hit rating enchant on them (if there is such a thing, there's a def enchant so there should be a hit enchant?). as for the belt, i'm gonna look into the red belt of bravery linked in another post, or at the very least the deathforge girdle from talon king ikiss. in the future, i may drop mining for engineering so i can craft furious gizmatic goggles. unfortunately, my work schedule doesn't allow me to arena on a regular basis so the pvp epics are out of my reach.
axhed wrote:
judging from his focused rage and imp heroic talents, i'm guessing he's killing his rage gen by spamming heroics too early in the fight.
tell him not to hit heroic strike until ALL of the following conditions are met:
shield slam on cooldown
shield block on cooldown
revenge on cooldown
5 sunders on mob
sunder timer over 8 secs remaining
tclap debuff over 10 secs remaining
demo shout debuff over 10 secs remaining
over 45 rage
THEN he can start spamming heroics
tell him not to hit heroic strike until ALL of the following conditions are met:
shield slam on cooldown
shield block on cooldown
revenge on cooldown
5 sunders on mob
sunder timer over 8 secs remaining
tclap debuff over 10 secs remaining
demo shout debuff over 10 secs remaining
over 45 rage
THEN he can start spamming heroics
you know, i do exactly that (from shield block on down, anyway), i'm gonna have to talk to him about his ability cycle.
don't bother with the red belt of battle, it'll cost you no less than 1-2k... personally, not really worth it.
there is no hit enchant for anything but feet. with av coming up next week and ~30 minute games, thats going to net you almost 1k honor / win. If you can do one before and after a raid, thats going to really help you out. Also, the pvp gems are quite great.
there is no hit enchant for anything but feet. with av coming up next week and ~30 minute games, thats going to net you almost 1k honor / win. If you can do one before and after a raid, thats going to really help you out. Also, the pvp gems are quite great.
I know you said you dont have the time to do arena's, but I'm pretty sure you can spare a few minutes a day to do arena's as they update every week. Just get a team together 2v2, 3v3 or 5v5 and get at least 10 matches in a week. Thats what I do. I'm really not too worried about how fast I get my gear so me and my teammate just do ten games at the beginning of the week when we're both on and get them knocked out. We can never seem to get above a 1500 rating, but we're workin on it.
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