mike. for starters look at my spec. it's not 0/21/40, so i actually have 1007 +damage. 2ndly I have the darkmoon card:crusade. which I've tested in raids and I can keep the full 10 stacks up 90-95% of the time, so i've actually got 1087 +damage.
2. next let me say that I have been including ISB in all my calculations. infact I've said that everytime. so please read.
3. the 1.5k warlocks we're talking about have 1.5k with RAID buffs. with full raid buffed I hit 1.3k +damage, so i'm actually not far off them. infact most these warlocks we're talking about have around 1.2k +damage and 300 +shadow, so I've got more +damage than most of them, infact most of those warlocks buffed don't break 1.5-1.6k
4.you can't argue i'm understating the SB damage as I'm taking into account SnF, sac'd succy. improved CoS, shadow weaving, misery, full raid buffs, crit rates, ISB etc... infact I've been OVERstating the SB damage as all my calculations have been presuming ISB is up 100% of the time.
5. I don't pad more +damage, i don't ignore hit. this is my TRASH gear (gezzz, i think you'd all remember that by now, the number of times I've said it across this forum). in my boss gear I loose about 20 damage, go up to 157 +hit and loose 2% crit.
6. ISB will not always be up with 33% crit. it's a CRIT, it's statics and there is no 100%. you can just get closer to it. firstly 20% is the minimum crit rate to keep ISB up 'constantly' IF you get a crit every 5spells that is. 2ndly 25% is the optimum as it means you ,in theory, get 1 SB crit to benefit from ISB
7. your beef may be with me about the dots up 100% of the time. but I never said 100% of the time. heck I don't keep mine up 100% of the time. in my spell rotation there's a 1-1.5second variation in my dots being up so as to fit in 1 more SB/conflagorate. but my dots, and your dots, and everyone elses dots SHOULD ALWAYS be recast after they wear off up to a variation of 2.5seconds (if you can fit in another SB before you bother recasting your dots then you're casting to many SBs and so lowering your overall dps
in BT/Hjall you still want to cast the dots, you gain more dps, as prooved above with the damage per cast data oh and try grabbing a calculator. take the spell damage of a SSC/TK warlock (me, with 1.3k +damage in a raid environment) and a hjal one(buzzkill would have about 1.6k). now with 0/21/40:
SB +damage coefficent is 1.03
times that by 1.13 for iCoS
1.15 for Spriest debuffs
1.15 for sac'd succy
1.2 for ISB
p.s. you do not add 1.15 to 1.03 etc.. you have to multiply them together as that's how to damage calculations are done in WoW.
you'll find that my SB does about 3.4k, their's around 3.9k
L2Maths, L2playwarlock
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 5:39pm by Jenovaomega
- Forums
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My Raiding BuildsFollow
Winterfall Firewater
Increases size, and melee attack power by 35.
Melee attack power? O.o
And you mock me for taking str with int I was lacking all in one pack...
Oh I got it now - its about size ofc. Lol, boys.
*looking for her "rofling plebs" smiley*
Increases size, and melee attack power by 35.
Melee attack power? O.o
And you mock me for taking str with int I was lacking all in one pack...
Oh I got it now - its about size ofc. Lol, boys.
*looking for her "rofling plebs" smiley*
Change your file extensions to .us from .eu.
cool... ummm.. which files? which folder?
Finally, it comes out.
I almost feel dumber for having argued with you for this long, and your not even spec'd 21/40.
You really do have a head on your shoulders if you really think you can argue about a 21/40 build, and not be spec'd that way.
You also have a head on your shoulders if you think that your +dmg compares with the ones(dont want to say "us" here) that are in Hyjal/BT gear.
YEAH, my TRASH gear. Because thats an excellent excuse. I happen to be wearing my trash gear too, like, all the time.
Correct me if im wrong, but the initial shadowbolt that puts the ISB debuff up, doesnt receive the benefit from ISB?
ISB is always up and will always be up with a 33% crit (by the way, I said 37, not 33).
but...
and
leads everyone here to believe that you keep dots up 100% of the time.
and for this comment:
How long did it take you to find our video? and I already linked my armory, only for you to ignore it. This is nothing more than an attack out of desperation.
And I used that video for several reasons. One, there is a member here who is actually on the same fight. Two, our other videos are done from Freemo's (pally) perspective, and that doesnt really help does it? That fight also overstates the point I have been trying to make the whole time. and my final point: you were so sure of yourself that it took you 27 replies to even realize what fight I was refering to.
Your mindset is "I'm not even specd 21/40 but I know all there is to know about it."
I'll expound more in a bit.
Jen wrote:
mike. for starters look at my spec. it's not 0/21/40
I almost feel dumber for having argued with you for this long, and your not even spec'd 21/40.
You really do have a head on your shoulders if you really think you can argue about a 21/40 build, and not be spec'd that way.
You also have a head on your shoulders if you think that your +dmg compares with the ones(dont want to say "us" here) that are in Hyjal/BT gear.
Quote:
I don't pad more +damage, i don't ignore hit. this is my TRASH gear (gezzz, i think you'd all remember that by now
YEAH, my TRASH gear. Because thats an excellent excuse. I happen to be wearing my trash gear too, like, all the time.
Quote:
ISB will not always be up with 33% crit. it's a CRIT, it's statics and there is no 100%. you can just get closer to it. firstly 20% is the minimum crit rate to keep ISB up 'constantly' IF you get a crit every 5spells that is. 2ndly 25% is the optimum as it means you ,in theory, get 1 SB crit to benefit from ISB
Correct me if im wrong, but the initial shadowbolt that puts the ISB debuff up, doesnt receive the benefit from ISB?
ISB is always up and will always be up with a 33% crit (by the way, I said 37, not 33).
Quote:
your beef may be with me about the dots up 100% of the time. but I never said 100% of the time. heck I don't keep mine up 100% of the time.
but...
Quote:
i hope I've made that clear enough. regardless of spec. EVERY dot you have should be kept up.
and
Quote:
using all our dots IS THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE YOUR DPS THROUGH LOOKING AT YOUR SPELL ROTATION.
leads everyone here to believe that you keep dots up 100% of the time.
and for this comment:
Quote:
oh, something i find fishy... you had to check your own armoury to know what your own crit rate was? would know their own spell rotation, you sure that's your warlock? I would have thought that someone with that type of gear would obviously know enough about their character to quote their stats without even thinking.
How long did it take you to find our video? and I already linked my armory, only for you to ignore it. This is nothing more than an attack out of desperation.
And I used that video for several reasons. One, there is a member here who is actually on the same fight. Two, our other videos are done from Freemo's (pally) perspective, and that doesnt really help does it? That fight also overstates the point I have been trying to make the whole time. and my final point: you were so sure of yourself that it took you 27 replies to even realize what fight I was refering to.
Your mindset is "I'm not even specd 21/40 but I know all there is to know about it."
I'll expound more in a bit.
priest, you know I raid 0/21/40. i've said it plenty of times, also you just took a small section of that sentence to take it out of context. he was talking about my +damage being 977, i said i'm not 0/21/40, so i actually have 1007. straw-man arguments won't get you anywhere priest.
and yeah. priest. my trash gear. you see there's such a thing as a "hit cap". on trash it's 5% bonus to hit, in pvp it's 3% i roam around with just under 6% hit, though if i could swap out other gear to get it to 5% while increasing my other stats I would. heck. just because of your pathetic arguement there, i've logged in and logged out in my boss gear, now remember i'm missing 30 spell damage due to not being 0/21/40. happy now? you've seen me in my boss gear. grats
also. 33%, 50%, 99% crit rate. doesn't matter. if it's not 100% then there's still a chance it won't be up constantly. LEARN TO MATHS. crits are a CHANCE, they're not a certainty. it is not certain that with 20% crit rate you crit every 5 spells.
and how does that lead to thinking I keep mine up 100% of the time? granted if I could keep them up '100% of the time' without waiting long periods of time doing nothing then I would. but that's not possible. also I'm fairly certain that the endlish I used doesn't even infer that I keep mine up constant, though as I said, i keep it within a 2 second down time.
oh, how do I ignore your armoury when I was using it for all the calculations I done? and I found the vid on the 3rd time you talked about it, and as I said. looking for a small hyper link of "RoS" in the middle of a big page of crap isn't something you see unless you specifically look for it. and the 3rd time I looked i specifically looked for all hyper links, not just a video link (you know, something starting with "this video" as the hyper link or just the full address without being shortened to RoS
again, i have to say. I am spec'd 0/21/40. I've said that probably a good 20-30 times on this forum, just because I'm not spec'd it now doesn't mean I'm not that for raids. ever heard of RESPECING? I respec up to 4 times a Day, it's called PVP, grinding, raiding, rep grinding, dueling etc.. specs. and if you're curious about where I get 200g a day from, well do dailies as well as selling alchemy pots / herbs and you'll find 200g a day a low number to earn.
this ENTIRE thread you have provided ZERO evidence for why not casting dots is the best way to dps, on the other hand I have provided plenty of evidence as to why it is, all you do is make pathetic attacks at the stuff I say by simply picking out parts of a full sentence just to push your arguement, and your arguement is purely a popularity one. you're just trying to get people to see me as the 'evil one' and so they'll rally behind you regardless of if you're right of not.
this type of attack is known as a Strawman arguement I believe you'll find it means that just about everything you've said has been off the topic.
what's even more amusing is that all of your responses haven't been aimed at my evidence as to why you're wrong. just at me. heck from the looks of things you can't actually come up with a valid counter-arguement so, as I've said, you're just trying to attack my credability. sadly though knowledge is power and you obviously have very little of it.
and yeah. priest. my trash gear. you see there's such a thing as a "hit cap". on trash it's 5% bonus to hit, in pvp it's 3% i roam around with just under 6% hit, though if i could swap out other gear to get it to 5% while increasing my other stats I would. heck. just because of your pathetic arguement there, i've logged in and logged out in my boss gear, now remember i'm missing 30 spell damage due to not being 0/21/40. happy now? you've seen me in my boss gear. grats
also. 33%, 50%, 99% crit rate. doesn't matter. if it's not 100% then there's still a chance it won't be up constantly. LEARN TO MATHS. crits are a CHANCE, they're not a certainty. it is not certain that with 20% crit rate you crit every 5 spells.
and how does that lead to thinking I keep mine up 100% of the time? granted if I could keep them up '100% of the time' without waiting long periods of time doing nothing then I would. but that's not possible. also I'm fairly certain that the endlish I used doesn't even infer that I keep mine up constant, though as I said, i keep it within a 2 second down time.
oh, how do I ignore your armoury when I was using it for all the calculations I done? and I found the vid on the 3rd time you talked about it, and as I said. looking for a small hyper link of "RoS" in the middle of a big page of crap isn't something you see unless you specifically look for it. and the 3rd time I looked i specifically looked for all hyper links, not just a video link (you know, something starting with "this video" as the hyper link or just the full address without being shortened to RoS
again, i have to say. I am spec'd 0/21/40. I've said that probably a good 20-30 times on this forum, just because I'm not spec'd it now doesn't mean I'm not that for raids. ever heard of RESPECING? I respec up to 4 times a Day, it's called PVP, grinding, raiding, rep grinding, dueling etc.. specs. and if you're curious about where I get 200g a day from, well do dailies as well as selling alchemy pots / herbs and you'll find 200g a day a low number to earn.
this ENTIRE thread you have provided ZERO evidence for why not casting dots is the best way to dps, on the other hand I have provided plenty of evidence as to why it is, all you do is make pathetic attacks at the stuff I say by simply picking out parts of a full sentence just to push your arguement, and your arguement is purely a popularity one. you're just trying to get people to see me as the 'evil one' and so they'll rally behind you regardless of if you're right of not.
this type of attack is known as a Strawman arguement I believe you'll find it means that just about everything you've said has been off the topic.
what's even more amusing is that all of your responses haven't been aimed at my evidence as to why you're wrong. just at me. heck from the looks of things you can't actually come up with a valid counter-arguement so, as I've said, you're just trying to attack my credability. sadly though knowledge is power and you obviously have very little of it.
Alright, this is a very interesting argument but I'd like to get the facts out of it.
Please stop padding your posts with attacks on barely relevant points and just clearly state the facts.
I'll be rolling a lock soon and I'd appreciate it if you could both come to some kind of summary of your points, backed up by valid math.
Please stop padding your posts with attacks on barely relevant points and just clearly state the facts.
I'll be rolling a lock soon and I'd appreciate it if you could both come to some kind of summary of your points, backed up by valid math.
All of your guys math is fking hypothetical, get some real @#%^ing numbers in there like WHAT THE DPS OF EACH SPELL IS JESUS @#%^ING CHRIST.
Oh hey, my Curse of Doom hits for 60000 and all of the casters in my group only do like 300 dps each and 60000/60 is greater than 900 so malediction sucks.
The above example is what you're doing, now read the @#%^ing thread on ElitistJerks.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 1:58am by kevriggy
Oh hey, my Curse of Doom hits for 60000 and all of the casters in my group only do like 300 dps each and 60000/60 is greater than 900 so malediction sucks.
The above example is what you're doing, now read the @#%^ing thread on ElitistJerks.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 1:58am by kevriggy
This threads gone on too long. Jenova instead of calculating in your head/spreadsheet, or posting parts of calculations, this thread could be quickly ended if you do the following.
1300 buffed spell damage
Post exactly how much damage each of these spells would do, plugging 1300 spell damage into the formulas. Please show calculations, and exactly how you came up with said numbers.
1) Shadowbolt
2) Corruption
3) Immolate
4) CoA
Showing exactly how much damage each spell does, and showing exactly where spell damage is calculated into the formula, people can do their own math based off their own gear. Thats why I want to see immolate broken into the frontload portion (which can crit) and the backload portion (a dot), people can plug their own crit % in to find average dps of a spell. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it should be detailed.
Then it would be nice to see what each spell hits for with the talents chosen in a 0/21/40 build, SnF, assuming ISB is up 99.9999% of the time, ruin, imp immolate, sac'd sucubus, etc... along with raid debuffs such as CoS, imp scorch, misery etc..
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 2:03am by mikelolol
1300 buffed spell damage
Post exactly how much damage each of these spells would do, plugging 1300 spell damage into the formulas. Please show calculations, and exactly how you came up with said numbers.
1) Shadowbolt
2) Corruption
3) Immolate
4) CoA
Showing exactly how much damage each spell does, and showing exactly where spell damage is calculated into the formula, people can do their own math based off their own gear. Thats why I want to see immolate broken into the frontload portion (which can crit) and the backload portion (a dot), people can plug their own crit % in to find average dps of a spell. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it should be detailed.
Then it would be nice to see what each spell hits for with the talents chosen in a 0/21/40 build, SnF, assuming ISB is up 99.9999% of the time, ruin, imp immolate, sac'd sucubus, etc... along with raid debuffs such as CoS, imp scorch, misery etc..
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 2:03am by mikelolol
Ok, here is the most basic math. Open excel, setup a basic spreadsheet.
In column A, put Time in .5 second intervals.
In column B, put Immolate.
In column C, put Shadowbolt.
Assume, based on the averages given:
Immolate: hits for 800 average, 1600 crit, 400 tick every 3 seconds.
Shadowbolt: hits for 4600, crits for 9200.
Every 1 in 3 spells WILL be a crit.
To emphasize my point that you loose a dramatic amount of dps due to an Immolate crit instead of a SB crit, I will start the calculation based on the first spell crit occuring at time: 0.
run the ticks/hits until at least the end of the second Immolate rotation(If you go to the end of the third Immolate, you will see the crit land on Immolate again, and loose even more dps, as 1600 crits < 9200 crits). you will find that after 32.5 seconds, a Immolate/sb rotation has put out 80,800 damage; whereas the pure sb build, at 32.5 seconds, has put out 87,400.
Thats really, really easy math to do.
Granted, you can cook up excuses about lag or whatever you want, but they would apply to both rotations.
An Immolate crit is wasted DPS, and you can't avoid your Immolate's critting. IF you could somehow make sure that your Immolates would never crit, then I can see Immolate being used again.
There are 2 reasons why an Immolate crit is bad.
1. the loss of dps due to a potential sb crit. I have been over this already, 1600<9200.
2. If 1/3 of your spells crit, then 2 out of 6 will also crit. If 1 out of those 6 is an Immolate, then you will cast 4 shadowbolts that dont crit, and possibly loose your ISB debuff for one of them.
To expand on #2. In the spreadsheet, I used the average hits and crits for my shadowbolts. Technically, in the Immolate rotation, the first 2 shadowbolt hits should not be 4600, as they do not yet have the 20% ISB debuff, hence, yet another loss in DPS. (aka, they would be 920 damage short, so the first to shadowbolts in the Immolate rotation would only hit for 3680.)
No, see, there is no one thread on any one site. I have read your thread, as well as the other 2000+ long one that was archived. You cant take information from just one source.
And, this is going to hurt saying it, but Jen and I both are using the best sources available: our own characters. There is nothing better than personal expierence.
I know it seems like were beating each other in the back of the head with a shovel, but we will make some form of progress here.
Comments like that just dont help.
So Jen, what now?
First of all, I think you are using This Spreadsheet to calculate DPS. If you plug in all my stats/talents, I'm getting that my damage per cast time for Immolate is 1640.46, and my damage per cast time for SB is 1680.57.
According to that spreadsheet, including Immolate in my rotation gives 1611.27 DPS. Not including it, gives 1659.09 DPS. A difference of 47.82 DPS. Which, over a 10 minute fight, accounts for 28,692 damage. Is there something I am missing? or are you using a different spreadsheet? because there's my absolute basic math sheet, and then theres this fancy one, and they both say Immolate will cost you damage.
What am I missing? What do you see/think that I dont? Because everything I can find is pointing away from Immolate, so much that for tonight, I spec'd out of Imp. Immo and Conflag, and grabbed Cataclysm(never had that before!), Soul Leech and Nether Prot. So now, my Immolates hit for even less, but my sbs cost less and heal me. (Figured I'd try something different).
In column A, put Time in .5 second intervals.
In column B, put Immolate.
In column C, put Shadowbolt.
Assume, based on the averages given:
Immolate: hits for 800 average, 1600 crit, 400 tick every 3 seconds.
Shadowbolt: hits for 4600, crits for 9200.
Every 1 in 3 spells WILL be a crit.
To emphasize my point that you loose a dramatic amount of dps due to an Immolate crit instead of a SB crit, I will start the calculation based on the first spell crit occuring at time: 0.
run the ticks/hits until at least the end of the second Immolate rotation(If you go to the end of the third Immolate, you will see the crit land on Immolate again, and loose even more dps, as 1600 crits < 9200 crits). you will find that after 32.5 seconds, a Immolate/sb rotation has put out 80,800 damage; whereas the pure sb build, at 32.5 seconds, has put out 87,400.
Thats really, really easy math to do.
Granted, you can cook up excuses about lag or whatever you want, but they would apply to both rotations.
An Immolate crit is wasted DPS, and you can't avoid your Immolate's critting. IF you could somehow make sure that your Immolates would never crit, then I can see Immolate being used again.
There are 2 reasons why an Immolate crit is bad.
1. the loss of dps due to a potential sb crit. I have been over this already, 1600<9200.
2. If 1/3 of your spells crit, then 2 out of 6 will also crit. If 1 out of those 6 is an Immolate, then you will cast 4 shadowbolts that dont crit, and possibly loose your ISB debuff for one of them.
To expand on #2. In the spreadsheet, I used the average hits and crits for my shadowbolts. Technically, in the Immolate rotation, the first 2 shadowbolt hits should not be 4600, as they do not yet have the 20% ISB debuff, hence, yet another loss in DPS. (aka, they would be 920 damage short, so the first to shadowbolts in the Immolate rotation would only hit for 3680.)
Quote:
All of your guys math is fking hypothetical, get some real @#%^ing numbers in there like WHAT THE DPS OF EACH SPELL IS JESUS @#%^ING CHRIST.
Oh hey, my Curse of Doom hits for 60000 and all of the casters in my group only do like 300 dps each and 60000/60 is greater than 900 so malediction sucks.
The above example is what you're doing, now read the @#%^ing thread on ElitistJerks.
Oh hey, my Curse of Doom hits for 60000 and all of the casters in my group only do like 300 dps each and 60000/60 is greater than 900 so malediction sucks.
The above example is what you're doing, now read the @#%^ing thread on ElitistJerks.
No, see, there is no one thread on any one site. I have read your thread, as well as the other 2000+ long one that was archived. You cant take information from just one source.
And, this is going to hurt saying it, but Jen and I both are using the best sources available: our own characters. There is nothing better than personal expierence.
I know it seems like were beating each other in the back of the head with a shovel, but we will make some form of progress here.
Comments like that just dont help.
So Jen, what now?
First of all, I think you are using This Spreadsheet to calculate DPS. If you plug in all my stats/talents, I'm getting that my damage per cast time for Immolate is 1640.46, and my damage per cast time for SB is 1680.57.
According to that spreadsheet, including Immolate in my rotation gives 1611.27 DPS. Not including it, gives 1659.09 DPS. A difference of 47.82 DPS. Which, over a 10 minute fight, accounts for 28,692 damage. Is there something I am missing? or are you using a different spreadsheet? because there's my absolute basic math sheet, and then theres this fancy one, and they both say Immolate will cost you damage.
What am I missing? What do you see/think that I dont? Because everything I can find is pointing away from Immolate, so much that for tonight, I spec'd out of Imp. Immo and Conflag, and grabbed Cataclysm(never had that before!), Soul Leech and Nether Prot. So now, my Immolates hit for even less, but my sbs cost less and heal me. (Figured I'd try something different).
Quote:
There are 2 reasons why an Immolate crit is bad.
1. the loss of dps due to a potential sb crit. I have been over this already, 1600<9200.
2. If 1/3 of your spells crit, then 2 out of 6 will also crit. If 1 out of those 6 is an Immolate, then you will cast 4 shadowbolts that dont crit, and possibly loose your ISB debuff for one of them.
1. the loss of dps due to a potential sb crit. I have been over this already, 1600<9200.
2. If 1/3 of your spells crit, then 2 out of 6 will also crit. If 1 out of those 6 is an Immolate, then you will cast 4 shadowbolts that dont crit, and possibly loose your ISB debuff for one of them.
I don't want to get involved but I feel like I have to say something.
Crits in WoW DO NOT WORK LIKE THIS.
Correct, there is a chance for a crit to happen every 1/3 with a 33% probability, but it isn't certain... You could have a 99% crit rate and not crit three times in a row, though the chances of that are extremely small.
The chance of getting a crit is always your crit rate... For instance: if you don't crit out of two hits with a 33.33% crit rate, it doesn't mean you'll crit on the third hit, there's still a 33.33% chance you will, this is true ALWAYS.
Now, out of 6 hits like you said, Immolate critting WILL NOT STOP SHADOW BOLT CRITTING, the crit chance for both spells goes off your rate every time, the rate doesn't decrease with subsequent criticals, ever.
A critical is NEVER bad when you're trying to get the most DPS possible.
yeah ashors! thank you for explaining that to them peeps. that is basic math 8th grade i believe.
@ Priest: Anyways funny how you refer to that video and the dude is casting I M M O L A T E and than SBs.
Nice gear priest.
@ Priest: Anyways funny how you refer to that video and the dude is casting I M M O L A T E and than SBs.
Nice gear priest.
ok, 1.3k damage and 202 +hit so as to not worry about resists and 25% crit. to calculate the crits I have downloaded this dice calculator and set it to a 5 sided dice. anything by a 1 is a hit, 1 = crit. but i'll be using CoD instead of CoA as that's what you'd do vs a boss. give me 30min oh and I'm not doing it using a pre-made DPS meter. just so that you can see exactly what'll happen I'll do a cast timeline of every event over 1minute.
for the 'dot dest' we'll use COR, imm, SB, CoD
for the nuke we'll use CoD and SB
I shall be back later once I've finished the test
POST EDIT
we shall use talented CoS and presume Spriest buffs and mage buffs are on the target and presume that there are enough warlocks in the raid to keep ISB up constantly
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 9:15am by Jenovaomega
for the 'dot dest' we'll use COR, imm, SB, CoD
for the nuke we'll use CoD and SB
I shall be back later once I've finished the test
POST EDIT
we shall use talented CoS and presume Spriest buffs and mage buffs are on the target and presume that there are enough warlocks in the raid to keep ISB up constantly
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 9:15am by Jenovaomega
just doing a running comentary while calculating this time. man i'm surpirsed how much of a difference in dps you get from 100% hit rate, 0 partial resists and constant ISB... o.0 i'll admit, spamming pure SB doesn't seem to bad now, though you're gonna love the damage done by using dots too :P
just about to upload the excel file somewhere. I programmed all the calculations myself and yes, this is in the most perfect of situations :P i'll add a small conclusion on here and then you can look at the file
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:15am by Jenovaomega
just about to upload the excel file somewhere. I programmed all the calculations myself and yes, this is in the most perfect of situations :P i'll add a small conclusion on here and then you can look at the file
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:15am by Jenovaomega
Oakenwrath wrote:
yeah ashors! thank you for explaining that to them peeps. that is basic math 8th grade i believe.
@ Priest: Anyways funny how you refer to that video and the dude is casting I M M O L A T E and than SBs.
Nice gear priest.
@ Priest: Anyways funny how you refer to that video and the dude is casting I M M O L A T E and than SBs.
Nice gear priest.
@Oaken: Thanks, but in the video DFX is casting Immo and Corr. We are somewhat equally geared, and were playing with cast rotations, I was using neither and out dps'd him.
@ashors: I am well aware what the difference between chance and probability is. But how can you calculate around that? each spell is a 33% chance to crit, I am well aware that the spells dont go crit/hit/hit crit/hit/hit crit/hit/hit in perfect order every single time. But how can you account for that?
Out of 100 spells, 33 will crit. I made it a crit/hit/hit spread, instead of randomly rolling to spread them out.
I mean, I dont understand how you would like me to account for the randomization of the crit%?
If you want, I'll set up a 100 spell cast rotation, 33 of them will crit. pick and choose 33 numbers between 1-100 and I'll make those crit. The fact still remains that you will loose dps if a crit ever lands on an immolate.
@Jen
Little more info on what your doing? Standard 21/40 build with all raid buffs? And whats wrong with my DPS spreadsheet ><
Sidenote: It's GAMEDAY. Alabama vs. Georgia on ESPN at 7, 8 est. Watch it! And if you watch gameday and see a guy holding a poster with OJ's face that says OJ Stole My Tickets! thats me.
Apologies if I dont get to respond again til....I'm sober.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:25am by PriestOfSouls
ok. firstly here's the file
0-21-40_nuke_vs_dots.Xls.Zip by Bigupload.Com
secondly. here's a small rundown of it
the multiplier for shadow spells was 1.13*1.15*1.15 = 1.79331
for fire it was 1.13*1.15*1.05 = 1.364475
Damage per spell:
CoD = 12194.508
cor(dot)= 632.6798 (total) 3796.078608
imm (dmg) = 1024.038488
imm (dot) = 398.4267 (total)1992.1335
total imm = 3016.171988
SB = 3545.786331
I tested it at a 25% crit rate using a dice simulator. I used a 4 sided dice with 1 being the crit.
for the SB nuke I got a recorded crit rate of 33%, so 8% above what it should be (lucky you priest)
and for the dot version I got a recorded crit rate of 28%, so 3% above what it should be (slightly lucky me)
now as said. we presumed 202 +hit, so resist wasn't an issue, though if you want me to i can add them in, but both versions only have a 1/4 total chance across all spells for a resist and presuming that the warlock has 32 spell penetration so that along with CoS/CoE they have a 0% chance for a partial resist.
now for the juicy information. the damage and dps ^^
pure SB nuke + CoD
Total Damage = 125659.6706 (113465.1626 direct damage, 12194.508 dot)
Total DPS = 2094.327843
Cor, imm, CoD and SB
Total Damage = 134364.2568 (103378.1712 direct damage, 29559.1449 dot) (+1426.940666 damage due to 2/5 emberstorm that I forgot to add, but now is included)
Total DPS = 2239.404279 (+ 23.78234443 for 2/5 emberstorm I forgot to add, but is now included)
I REALLY want to gloat... but I think I'll just accept you /bowing to me priest. even with an extra 5% more crit than me (1 extra crit, and crits only on SB so more benefit than mine where I got a crit on immolate instead of a SB as well as less crits) you're still over 100dps behind me, now if you take into account resists too you'd be even further behind as a SB resist is a bigger issue than a dot resist due to the cast time difference and variation is damage due to crits.
so, as I said. your spell rotation IS wrong, and if you want me to make this more and more realistic I can, but trust me on this, your dps will decrease by a larger amount than mine.
POST EDIT
included the extra damage due to emberstorm that I forgot about, it's not included in the excel sheet but as I've wrote above, i've included it into the figures here
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:52am by Jenovaomega
0-21-40_nuke_vs_dots.Xls.Zip by Bigupload.Com
secondly. here's a small rundown of it
the multiplier for shadow spells was 1.13*1.15*1.15 = 1.79331
for fire it was 1.13*1.15*1.05 = 1.364475
Damage per spell:
CoD = 12194.508
cor(dot)= 632.6798 (total) 3796.078608
imm (dmg) = 1024.038488
imm (dot) = 398.4267 (total)1992.1335
total imm = 3016.171988
SB = 3545.786331
I tested it at a 25% crit rate using a dice simulator. I used a 4 sided dice with 1 being the crit.
for the SB nuke I got a recorded crit rate of 33%, so 8% above what it should be (lucky you priest)
and for the dot version I got a recorded crit rate of 28%, so 3% above what it should be (slightly lucky me)
now as said. we presumed 202 +hit, so resist wasn't an issue, though if you want me to i can add them in, but both versions only have a 1/4 total chance across all spells for a resist and presuming that the warlock has 32 spell penetration so that along with CoS/CoE they have a 0% chance for a partial resist.
now for the juicy information. the damage and dps ^^
pure SB nuke + CoD
Total Damage = 125659.6706 (113465.1626 direct damage, 12194.508 dot)
Total DPS = 2094.327843
Cor, imm, CoD and SB
Total Damage = 134364.2568 (103378.1712 direct damage, 29559.1449 dot) (+1426.940666 damage due to 2/5 emberstorm that I forgot to add, but now is included)
Total DPS = 2239.404279 (+ 23.78234443 for 2/5 emberstorm I forgot to add, but is now included)
I REALLY want to gloat... but I think I'll just accept you /bowing to me priest. even with an extra 5% more crit than me (1 extra crit, and crits only on SB so more benefit than mine where I got a crit on immolate instead of a SB as well as less crits) you're still over 100dps behind me, now if you take into account resists too you'd be even further behind as a SB resist is a bigger issue than a dot resist due to the cast time difference and variation is damage due to crits.
so, as I said. your spell rotation IS wrong, and if you want me to make this more and more realistic I can, but trust me on this, your dps will decrease by a larger amount than mine.
POST EDIT
included the extra damage due to emberstorm that I forgot about, it's not included in the excel sheet but as I've wrote above, i've included it into the figures here
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:52am by Jenovaomega
oh, nothing wrong with your dps sheet. just this way you get to see where everything happens, we get to take into account crits to and just generally see the full timeline and where everything comes from + all formula
it's the standard 0/21/40 build, though I JUST remembered i forgot to add in the 4% bonus to fire damage from emberstorm but oh well. just increases my total damage by 1426.940666 damage or 23.78234443 dps
buffs ways:
ISB 100% up
shadow weaving 100% up
misery 100% up
improved scorch 100% up
improved CoS and improved CoE 100% up
11k hp and mana + Spriest in party so no worries about health or mana for at least 1minute, so no need to life tap, though if you include lifetap again I'll benefit more as while you're waiting 1.5seconds doing no dps, i'm still doing dps due to dots.
202+hit
32 spell penetration so as to give 100% chance for no partial resists.
POST EDIT
just thought i'd say this is presuming 0 latency / perfect /stopcasting macros. in reality the dot user benefits more due to lag as 22% of my damage is dot based, and so un effected by lag
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:57am by Jenovaomega
it's the standard 0/21/40 build, though I JUST remembered i forgot to add in the 4% bonus to fire damage from emberstorm but oh well. just increases my total damage by 1426.940666 damage or 23.78234443 dps
buffs ways:
ISB 100% up
shadow weaving 100% up
misery 100% up
improved scorch 100% up
improved CoS and improved CoE 100% up
11k hp and mana + Spriest in party so no worries about health or mana for at least 1minute, so no need to life tap, though if you include lifetap again I'll benefit more as while you're waiting 1.5seconds doing no dps, i'm still doing dps due to dots.
202+hit
32 spell penetration so as to give 100% chance for no partial resists.
POST EDIT
just thought i'd say this is presuming 0 latency / perfect /stopcasting macros. in reality the dot user benefits more due to lag as 22% of my damage is dot based, and so un effected by lag
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 10:57am by Jenovaomega
sooo, as i've been saying this entire time. listen to the perfectionist who DOES always do the calculations on things to make sure he's top. I've never *********** about anything on this forum and everytime I comment about what's better for what it IS because I've done the maths on it AND, if I have access to it, tested it in real situations (times I haven't are FSW for example as I don't do tailoring).
so thankyou again for letting me prove I'm right and enjoy skimming through all the details to try and find a flaw. trust me you won't find anything.
so thankyou again for letting me prove I'm right and enjoy skimming through all the details to try and find a flaw. trust me you won't find anything.
Jen, I /bow to you.
Mainly, for 2 reasons.
You somehow shaved 1.1k off every SB hit, as yours hit for 3545.79, while I used 4.6 above. Which means yours crit for 7091.57, over 2k short of mine.
AND at the same time, you managed to add 225 damage to the front end of Immolate, and added 215 damage per tick.
Oh, and at time=20 and 38.5 you have corruption hitting for 3545.79 in your dot rotation, if I'm reading that right?.
at 15, you have a sb hit.
at 17.5, you have a sb hit.
at 20, you have a sb hit.
at 22, you have an Immolate crit.
at 23.5, you have a sb crit.
So, somehow you not only squeeze in a 2 second cast Corruption at 20, but also a 1.5s cast sb crit between 22 and 23.5.
I think its just your chart is off. If you cast CoD, corruption, then Immolate, your Immolate will not land until 1.5GCD+2.0Corr+1.5Imm=5.0seconds. Your Immolate doesnt even hit until 5 seconds, but on your chart, you already have Immolate and a sb hit?
So, you didn't like my video as it skewed my numbers higher. so take a different boss and pick a wws combatlog.
Teron Gorefiend? Illicit used CoD and SBs, average sb was 4021, max was 9857.
Run those numbers, and your inflated Immolate numbers, and see what you get.
Oh, and you can look at the other locks in the combat logs and see that their average Immolate tick is 337.5, no where near your 615.
But anyways, keeping your high Immolate numbers, and putting in 4021 for avg sb hit, and 8027 for average crit (his max was 9.8k, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume he hit low the entire fight).
Note: I believe that your times for damage application are off on your dot sheet, however I will not bother with changing them right now, I'm simply plugging in his average sb hits and his average sb crits. Which, by the way, he had a perfect 25% crit for this fight. Just like on your sheet.
You will find that on your spreadsheet:
for SB alone:
Total Damage 142506.51
Total DPS: 2375.11
for Immolate/Corr rotation:
Total Damage: 138535.14
Total DPS: 2308.92
Simply from plugging in realtime shadowbolt numbers into both sheets. Your Immolate still hits early, is front end heavy by 225 damage, and ticks for 278 more than his would. Yet SB wins?
I want an CoD app and Corr app and Immolate hit all in 3.5 seconds. I want weak sbs with inflated Immolates. When I have to reapply my corruption, I want a sb hit at the same time.
Mainly, for 2 reasons.
You somehow shaved 1.1k off every SB hit, as yours hit for 3545.79, while I used 4.6 above. Which means yours crit for 7091.57, over 2k short of mine.
AND at the same time, you managed to add 225 damage to the front end of Immolate, and added 215 damage per tick.
Oh, and at time=20 and 38.5 you have corruption hitting for 3545.79 in your dot rotation, if I'm reading that right?.
at 15, you have a sb hit.
at 17.5, you have a sb hit.
at 20, you have a sb hit.
at 22, you have an Immolate crit.
at 23.5, you have a sb crit.
So, somehow you not only squeeze in a 2 second cast Corruption at 20, but also a 1.5s cast sb crit between 22 and 23.5.
I think its just your chart is off. If you cast CoD, corruption, then Immolate, your Immolate will not land until 1.5GCD+2.0Corr+1.5Imm=5.0seconds. Your Immolate doesnt even hit until 5 seconds, but on your chart, you already have Immolate and a sb hit?
So, you didn't like my video as it skewed my numbers higher. so take a different boss and pick a wws combatlog.
Teron Gorefiend? Illicit used CoD and SBs, average sb was 4021, max was 9857.
Run those numbers, and your inflated Immolate numbers, and see what you get.
Oh, and you can look at the other locks in the combat logs and see that their average Immolate tick is 337.5, no where near your 615.
But anyways, keeping your high Immolate numbers, and putting in 4021 for avg sb hit, and 8027 for average crit (his max was 9.8k, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume he hit low the entire fight).
Note: I believe that your times for damage application are off on your dot sheet, however I will not bother with changing them right now, I'm simply plugging in his average sb hits and his average sb crits. Which, by the way, he had a perfect 25% crit for this fight. Just like on your sheet.
You will find that on your spreadsheet:
for SB alone:
Total Damage 142506.51
Total DPS: 2375.11
for Immolate/Corr rotation:
Total Damage: 138535.14
Total DPS: 2308.92
Simply from plugging in realtime shadowbolt numbers into both sheets. Your Immolate still hits early, is front end heavy by 225 damage, and ticks for 278 more than his would. Yet SB wins?
Quote:
so thankyou again for letting me prove I'm right and enjoy skimming through all the details to try and find a flaw. trust me you won't find anything.
I want an CoD app and Corr app and Immolate hit all in 3.5 seconds. I want weak sbs with inflated Immolates. When I have to reapply my corruption, I want a sb hit at the same time.
seriously this argument was the most retarded ever.
I gave you that link because it had MATH behind it, not personal experience; which is more valuable when calculating how to do damage I'll leave up to you.
I gave you that link because it had MATH behind it, not personal experience; which is more valuable when calculating how to do damage I'll leave up to you.
nope. you're reading it wrong
firstly. the extra immolate damage is due to the talent. improved immolate
2ndly the bonus to immolate tick is due to +damage and damage multipliers
615 damage over 15 seconds. 5 ticks at 3second gaps
(615 + 1300*0.65) (spell damage) *1.13 (iCoE) * 1.15 (improved scorch) *1.05 (misery) *1.04 (emberstorm) = 2071.81884
divided by 5 = 414.36 (remember this time I've included emberstorm too, previously I hadn't which is why this is 414 and previous was 398)
3rdly. you're reading it wrong. the far right hand collum is dot damage, the middle is direct damage. also the 3545 is SHADOW bolt MAX end damage.
4thly. the 4.5k hits you're thinking of are either in your head, or including trinket + shaman totems, nither of which are included here. what I've calculated here IS the max hit and crit you can manage with 1300 +damage and all the listed boss debuffs. if you don't believe me do the maths
shadowbolt rank.11 603 max damage
+damage coeffienct = 1.0571 including SnF
(603 + 1300*1.0571)* 1.13(iCoS)*1.15(Spriest buffs)*1.15(sacc'd succy) 1.20 (ISB) = 3545.786331
personnaly I'll agree with you that those shadowbolts seem low. in full raid environments I'm hitting 1450 +damage almost dead on before trinket use or T4 proc, but I'm going with the figures YOU gave me, so stop complaining
about the timing around the 15second mark. let me expain
at 15seconds cast SB(5)
(2.5sec gap)
at 17.5s Sb(5) finished casting, Sb(6) started casting
(2.5sec gap)
at 20s Sb(6) finish casting, start casting Cor(2)
(2 sec gap)
at 22s cor(2) finished casting. start casting imm(2)
(1.5sec gap)
23.5s imm(2) finished casting, SB(7) started
you REALLY need to check out your reading and maths skills... o.0
also read the collumn title. it's "spell cast", not "spell landed". it's recording from the moment you press the cast button, then once the GCD/cast time is up, the next spell kicks in.
I didn't keep my immolate numbers high, i didn't keep the SB numbers low. I used the high end numbers for each spell. I'm not trying to skewer this in my favour, unlike you I can be unbiased, I am simply running through the numbers just to prove to you and to all the people who might believe what you're saying that you're wrong about how to play warlock. and not to prove you're wrong but so that others don't make the same mistake as you.
again you keep on talking about doing highier hits and crits. well that can only be true if you take into account pots, totems and trinket uses. if you do the maths on the 1300 +damage that you specified then you won't break 3.5k hits or 7k crits.
check the dots, they're 2 obviously different damages so it's easy to tell which is COR and which is IMM (lower is imm), they have a 3second gap between each. 6 ticks for corruption, 5 for immolate and starting 3 seconds after the spell initially lands which is how it works
also I don't have CoD/COR and imm land in 3.5 seconds, you just simply can't count, they're not top heavy, they're not calculated wrong. it is just simply that YOU can't do maths and you're making a huge fool of yourself trying to do so. this is a DPS chart using the figures YOU gave me, stop complaining and just admit defeat.
POST EDIT
kevriggy, I don't know who you've aiming that comment at but I've read that site plenty of times, just this guy is asking for figures. now as I said if needed (though it'll take a few hours to do) I can happily add in resists, partial resists, latency, top/middle/bottom end hits/crits and all the other random factors that can and do occur on a day to day basis when dpsing, which you'll find can be done to a very accurate degree using a random number generator as that is exactly how the damage figures are worked out in wow. every spell is just a calulation of multiple probabilities, so allowing you to get a dps chart to become incredabily accurate.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 12:02pm by Jenovaomega
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 8:10am by Jenovaomega
firstly. the extra immolate damage is due to the talent. improved immolate
2ndly the bonus to immolate tick is due to +damage and damage multipliers
615 damage over 15 seconds. 5 ticks at 3second gaps
(615 + 1300*0.65) (spell damage) *1.13 (iCoE) * 1.15 (improved scorch) *1.05 (misery) *1.04 (emberstorm) = 2071.81884
divided by 5 = 414.36 (remember this time I've included emberstorm too, previously I hadn't which is why this is 414 and previous was 398)
3rdly. you're reading it wrong. the far right hand collum is dot damage, the middle is direct damage. also the 3545 is SHADOW bolt MAX end damage.
4thly. the 4.5k hits you're thinking of are either in your head, or including trinket + shaman totems, nither of which are included here. what I've calculated here IS the max hit and crit you can manage with 1300 +damage and all the listed boss debuffs. if you don't believe me do the maths
shadowbolt rank.11 603 max damage
+damage coeffienct = 1.0571 including SnF
(603 + 1300*1.0571)* 1.13(iCoS)*1.15(Spriest buffs)*1.15(sacc'd succy) 1.20 (ISB) = 3545.786331
personnaly I'll agree with you that those shadowbolts seem low. in full raid environments I'm hitting 1450 +damage almost dead on before trinket use or T4 proc, but I'm going with the figures YOU gave me, so stop complaining
about the timing around the 15second mark. let me expain
at 15seconds cast SB(5)
(2.5sec gap)
at 17.5s Sb(5) finished casting, Sb(6) started casting
(2.5sec gap)
at 20s Sb(6) finish casting, start casting Cor(2)
(2 sec gap)
at 22s cor(2) finished casting. start casting imm(2)
(1.5sec gap)
23.5s imm(2) finished casting, SB(7) started
you REALLY need to check out your reading and maths skills... o.0
also read the collumn title. it's "spell cast", not "spell landed". it's recording from the moment you press the cast button, then once the GCD/cast time is up, the next spell kicks in.
I didn't keep my immolate numbers high, i didn't keep the SB numbers low. I used the high end numbers for each spell. I'm not trying to skewer this in my favour, unlike you I can be unbiased, I am simply running through the numbers just to prove to you and to all the people who might believe what you're saying that you're wrong about how to play warlock. and not to prove you're wrong but so that others don't make the same mistake as you.
again you keep on talking about doing highier hits and crits. well that can only be true if you take into account pots, totems and trinket uses. if you do the maths on the 1300 +damage that you specified then you won't break 3.5k hits or 7k crits.
check the dots, they're 2 obviously different damages so it's easy to tell which is COR and which is IMM (lower is imm), they have a 3second gap between each. 6 ticks for corruption, 5 for immolate and starting 3 seconds after the spell initially lands which is how it works
also I don't have CoD/COR and imm land in 3.5 seconds, you just simply can't count, they're not top heavy, they're not calculated wrong. it is just simply that YOU can't do maths and you're making a huge fool of yourself trying to do so. this is a DPS chart using the figures YOU gave me, stop complaining and just admit defeat.
POST EDIT
kevriggy, I don't know who you've aiming that comment at but I've read that site plenty of times, just this guy is asking for figures. now as I said if needed (though it'll take a few hours to do) I can happily add in resists, partial resists, latency, top/middle/bottom end hits/crits and all the other random factors that can and do occur on a day to day basis when dpsing, which you'll find can be done to a very accurate degree using a random number generator as that is exactly how the damage figures are worked out in wow. every spell is just a calulation of multiple probabilities, so allowing you to get a dps chart to become incredabily accurate.
Edited, Sep 22nd 2007 12:02pm by Jenovaomega
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 8:10am by Jenovaomega
I can see this question coming up so i'll answer it now
why am I so invested into this topic?
well lets look at a different situation (been used before, good example)
you're a qualified doctor and someone comes to you for advice on a rash, you give it
they then go to a senial old witch doctor, get advice from them about the rash
they then come back to you saying they're going to go with what the witch doctor proscribed, even though you know it won't help them at all, in fact it could even harm them.
of course you're going to want to try and convince them of the right treatment to take and that's exactly what I'm doing here. If you could get a degree in being a warlock I'd already have passed the masters degree while priest is still training / just someone who thinks they have knowledge on the matter. as I've said plenty of times, and as I'd like to hope to have proved here. I've studied maths, I'm very good at it too. I'm a perfectionist and I always make sure I'm the best at whatever I do. I've put the time and effort into testing out what's best for a warlock and I know + 100s of other warlocks like me all know that using dots WILL improve your dps. they'll also all agree on my maths in that spreadsheet.
why am I so invested into this topic?
well lets look at a different situation (been used before, good example)
you're a qualified doctor and someone comes to you for advice on a rash, you give it
they then go to a senial old witch doctor, get advice from them about the rash
they then come back to you saying they're going to go with what the witch doctor proscribed, even though you know it won't help them at all, in fact it could even harm them.
of course you're going to want to try and convince them of the right treatment to take and that's exactly what I'm doing here. If you could get a degree in being a warlock I'd already have passed the masters degree while priest is still training / just someone who thinks they have knowledge on the matter. as I've said plenty of times, and as I'd like to hope to have proved here. I've studied maths, I'm very good at it too. I'm a perfectionist and I always make sure I'm the best at whatever I do. I've put the time and effort into testing out what's best for a warlock and I know + 100s of other warlocks like me all know that using dots WILL improve your dps. they'll also all agree on my maths in that spreadsheet.
Well I think Jenova wins the thread =)
Yes there can be huge crits in a raid environment, but thats with more +damage, trinkets, totems and procs like spellstrike, T4, whatever. I know my hugest crits came from 2/5 T4 proc + trinket with all the debuffs up. Still that point is moot because you could cast your dots with those buffs up too, which in turn would do more damage. I also believe we rememeber our biggest crits (OMFG 8500!!1!) but we sort of ignore our lackluster ones (meh 6480...).
So dots apparently do increase dps, not by a huge amount (200ish), and I wonder if other factors are involved such as latency. I know I play at with 250-280 latency pretty much constantly, and quite often I 'miss' a GCD if you know what I mean. The dot ends up being cast late, especially when I bounce from a cast time-> to non-cast time-> to cast time, depending on my latency I tend to miss the 3rd dot alot. Its easier just to spam shadowbolts with quartz and a /stopcasting macro, and I think we can all agree after those numbers pure SB spam still does very respectable dps in that spec compared to keep dots up along with the spam. I'm thinking in the 'real world' you're losing about 100+dps by not casting dots in a raid, still a number not to be sneezed at, but when your dps is so high already not the absolute end of the world.
One last thing I'll mention is threat, again not a massive deal, but you don't have imp drain soul for 0/21/40 builds. You're really only casting 2 affliction dots, so I don't think the issue is huge, but say you're pushing 1600-1700dps (since you used purely high figures in the 2000-2200dps tests I'm just assuming 1600-1700dps is average here), it might make somewhat of a difference. Just thought I'd mention it.
Anyways, Jen was right, I was wrong. For the record I never really thought corruption or CoD weren't worth casting, it was immolate I was talking about. But checking the numbers I didn't think it did as much damage as it did. I won't ask you to run anymore tests since you did alot of work, but if you're really interested you could a rotation where immolate is left out of the mix, and the persons +shadow damage outweighs their +fire damage by about 150. Say 1200 spell damage, 1350 shadow damage, casting CoD, corruption and shadowbolt. Only if you're interested, I have a feeling in that scenario immolate wouldn't be worth casting (but only by a *small* amount, like 25-50dps tops using pure high end numbers). In the end I guess I underestimated the damage dots do and overestimated SnF, sac'd succy and ISB.
Yes there can be huge crits in a raid environment, but thats with more +damage, trinkets, totems and procs like spellstrike, T4, whatever. I know my hugest crits came from 2/5 T4 proc + trinket with all the debuffs up. Still that point is moot because you could cast your dots with those buffs up too, which in turn would do more damage. I also believe we rememeber our biggest crits (OMFG 8500!!1!) but we sort of ignore our lackluster ones (meh 6480...).
So dots apparently do increase dps, not by a huge amount (200ish), and I wonder if other factors are involved such as latency. I know I play at with 250-280 latency pretty much constantly, and quite often I 'miss' a GCD if you know what I mean. The dot ends up being cast late, especially when I bounce from a cast time-> to non-cast time-> to cast time, depending on my latency I tend to miss the 3rd dot alot. Its easier just to spam shadowbolts with quartz and a /stopcasting macro, and I think we can all agree after those numbers pure SB spam still does very respectable dps in that spec compared to keep dots up along with the spam. I'm thinking in the 'real world' you're losing about 100+dps by not casting dots in a raid, still a number not to be sneezed at, but when your dps is so high already not the absolute end of the world.
One last thing I'll mention is threat, again not a massive deal, but you don't have imp drain soul for 0/21/40 builds. You're really only casting 2 affliction dots, so I don't think the issue is huge, but say you're pushing 1600-1700dps (since you used purely high figures in the 2000-2200dps tests I'm just assuming 1600-1700dps is average here), it might make somewhat of a difference. Just thought I'd mention it.
Anyways, Jen was right, I was wrong. For the record I never really thought corruption or CoD weren't worth casting, it was immolate I was talking about. But checking the numbers I didn't think it did as much damage as it did. I won't ask you to run anymore tests since you did alot of work, but if you're really interested you could a rotation where immolate is left out of the mix, and the persons +shadow damage outweighs their +fire damage by about 150. Say 1200 spell damage, 1350 shadow damage, casting CoD, corruption and shadowbolt. Only if you're interested, I have a feeling in that scenario immolate wouldn't be worth casting (but only by a *small* amount, like 25-50dps tops using pure high end numbers). In the end I guess I underestimated the damage dots do and overestimated SnF, sac'd succy and ISB.
when it comes to lag and /stopcast macros, 0/21/40 shines pretty good for dots as we have only 1 instant (CoD) and the rest are casted, so /stopcasting macros are good as well as the fact that once cast the damage isn't affected by lag.
and ya, i was quite surprised by how much dps just nuking done, though once you take into account medium and low hits/crits using dots becomes more beneficial as they deal the same damage everytime basically once you take into account all the other factors, the difference between using dots and not using them will be more around the 300-400 dps mark as the actual damage per shadowbolt generally won't vary at all, they'll both decrease at the same rate while the dot damage will remain almost entirely unaffected
and ya, i was quite surprised by how much dps just nuking done, though once you take into account medium and low hits/crits using dots becomes more beneficial as they deal the same damage everytime basically once you take into account all the other factors, the difference between using dots and not using them will be more around the 300-400 dps mark as the actual damage per shadowbolt generally won't vary at all, they'll both decrease at the same rate while the dot damage will remain almost entirely unaffected
Quote:
you REALLY need to check out your reading and maths skills... o.0
also read the collumn title. it's "spell cast", not "spell landed". it's recording from the moment you press the cast button, then once the GCD/cast time is up, the next spell kicks in.
also read the collumn title. it's "spell cast", not "spell landed". it's recording from the moment you press the cast button, then once the GCD/cast time is up, the next spell kicks in.
Ok, apparently I'm still reading this wrong, and if I'm wrong I would like to be made right. So, here is how I am viewing this:
It's "spell cast" not "spell landed".
So at 0, you started casting CoD.
At 1.5, you started casting Corruption.
At 3.5, you started casting Immolate. However, at 3.5, you also have a Direct Damage of 1024.04. How is this possible, if you are just starting to cast Immolate?
And again down lower. at 20 seconds, you started casting Corruption.
at 22 seconds, when you finished casting corruption, you have a Direct Damage Crit of 2048.08. Again, how did you get a crit out of a corruption cast?
Same for 40.5 seconds, you ended your corruption cast but had a Direct Damage hit of 1024.04.
What I think it should be is that at 3.5 seconds, you just finished casting a corruption, you dont have any damage on the mob yet, there is no Direct Damage, correct?
Am I doing that right? I dont see where your getting Direct Damage out of every single Corruption cast.
At 3.5 seconds, all you have on the mob is CoD (no damage) and Corruption (no damage), there should not be an Immolate hit at 3.5 seconds as you just started casting it.
If you are including Corruption in your rotation, there will be several points in time (whenever you renew your Corruption) that you have ZERO Direct Damage. You cant get Direct Damage out of a corruption cast.
Leave your numbers and multipliers all in, and updating your spreadsheet for 0 Direct Damage from Corruption, yields dot dps at 1979.24, and the other at 2094.33.
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