I have received a lot of PMs asking for the specifics on a 30/21/10 build, such as what kind of gear is required, cast rotation, advantages, etc.
What I would like to do is post the 2 builds that I alternate between the most (and an optional 3rd), and attempt to explain the benefits/disadvantages of each. Note: I will probably link to or copy a lot of info that I have gathered from other sites, such as Elitist Jerks, some posts here, etc. Some of this is posted in sections on my guild's forum, we have been collecting data and opinions for a long, long time, and I'll try to give credit where credit is due.
My first build is the not-so-popular 30/21/10.
A quick overview:
This build is an alternate to the UA builds, offering competitive numbers on boss fights while crunching out much bigger ones on trash. Between Siphon Life, Demonic Aegis and over 1000 shadow damage, you are entirely self sufficient as far as mana goes. Always life tap so Siphon Life is never over healing you, and never life tap if some of the mana gained is wasted.
This is build option A, use it if you prefer to have Fel Concentration. If you would rather have Suppression to make up some +hit difference, take it out of Fel Concentration. There is 1 point in imp. Imp, simply because you need a filler to get to DS, if you feel that it would be better spent in imp. VW or something, by all means place it there. Obviously, this spec depends on sacrificing your succy, so any of the 5 available filler talents all unfortunately pertain to pets.
This is a somewhat later-in-game build, and as such I would not advise choosing this build over a 0/21/40 until you can reach 1000 shadow damage, 5%-8% hit (without suppression!), >10% crit. You want those Shadowbolts to be punching through the resists as much as possible, and critting enough to help keep up the ISB debuff.
Dot rotation: CoS/CoD, Siphon, Corruption, spam Shadowbolts. Refresh Siphon Life/Corruption/CoD as needed..But never early! on trash, just CoS-> Shadowbolt spam. (If your careful with your targetting, you can throw a Corruption on a couple mobs while your tank builds aggro on the main target, nightfall procs are always welcome. If you corrupt the sheep....don't blame me.)
With 30/21/10 your siphon life can almost completely keep up with your life tap (you only need about 750 additional health points per minute). You life tap less because of the extra mana, and therefore can dps more. You also get an extra instant dot. You can heal yourself with drain-life faster than bandaging and still do damage at the same time. NOTE: This does NOT mean that drain life is a considerable source of DPS, it simply means that drain life is more effective than a bandaid.
I would like to add this explanation as to why CoD is more favorable than CoA, and also why one shouldn't put points into Imp. CoA:
(from EJ): Always use Curse of Doom over Curse of Agony, unless you know that boss will die in less than a minute. The reason is that you will spend 2 more seconds per minute on average casting CoA than CoD, while only getting about 275 more damage. You could be using that 2 second cast time to cast a shadow bolt (about 987 dmg per casting second). For this reason, it is pointless to put talent points into Improved CoA. Even considering CoD will be resisted 10% of the time, Imp CoA only returns an extra 40 dmg per minute per talent point. You'd be better of putting more into Supression (about 160 dmg per minute per talent point with this build). (Calculations based on 1100 shadow damage and 15% crit.)
My 2nd alternate is the 0/21/40 Build, shadow not fire damage mind you.
Quick Summary: Shadow / Destro builds still crank out very high DPS, especially burst DPS. In fights where adds need to be nuked down quickly, a 0/21/40 build will be much better than a 41/0/20 build. They are also the best at keeping up the Imp SB debuff for 20% extra shadow damage for the whole raid. Limitations of the build are the reliance on +spell hit gear AND +spell crit gear, and a weaker mana pool.
It is a gear dependent build in that a high +hit/crit/dmg combination is necessary, but it does start to scale nicely with the upper tier gear. Affliction locks dont get much bonus out of the +hit (likely already capped with suppression), +crit or even +haste from BT/hyjal. Unfortunately, not much gear after the frozen shadoweave set that is just pure +shadow dmg.
This is the spec of choice for the #1 warlock, Buzzkill.
Just to point out: he has +1522 shadow damage, 201 hit, and 22% crit (fully buffed). And yes, he is shadow.
Spell rotation. Always start with your designated curse (Curse of Shadow, Doom, etc.), then just cast Corruption, followed by Immolate .. then spam shadowbolt until a dot expires and do it all over again. Also because of the high mana usage with this build, try and life tap often and keep your HP just below full. When you see a Heal over Time (HoT) hit your from a healer, tap your life into mana so you don't waste any of the HoT. Whatever you do, don't wait until your are out of mana (OOM) and then tap all your life back to mana. Tapping a little bit often is a much better way and wont put you at risk of getting 1-shotted because you tapped all your life out. Generally try and life tap at least once in each spell rotation.
The advantages:
Biggest shadowbolt crits, period.
Excellent burst damage.
Improved Shadow Bolt debuff will be up almost constantly (aka. moreso with this build than with any other).
The disadvantages:
Gear dependent.
Aggro can be spikey and problematic in some situations.
The least mana efficient.
Not mobile, at all. Every spell used has a cast time.
My last build is the 41/0/20 Build.
Note: this build is extremely, extremely flexible. The main concept is that you have UA and Bane, feel free to spend your points however you want in order to get there. Some may opt to choose Suppression over Fel Concentration, as you ideally should until you can reach the hit cap.
I'm not going to say much about this build, as almost everyone has seen it and probably used it at some point.
Manage your dots, dont refresh early, use shadowbolts as a filler. This is the best mobility spec, you dots still tick while you have to move, and you have 3 instants at your disposal.
I would like to do a few things in closing.
1. I'm sure I have missed some things while posting this. Please, point them out and I will gladly edit them in.
2. These are my builds, I do not claim them to be the raiding builds.
3. Credit to Loki, for flawlessly proving that Shadow damage will outperform Fire. Actually helped change one of our warlock's spec.
4. To all the locks with 3/3 Malediction, or who are on imp duty, thank you.
And lastly, I would like to introduce someone to you. Those of you who don't know him, his name is Dr. Boom. He is the best way to test your DPS, with any given spec. Assuming your 70 and have a flying mount, travel to Netherstorm, find Dr. Boom, and land on one of the rocks behind him. You are out of range of his attacks, he has 650k+ hp, so feel free to unload on him. Test your specs, find which one you like the most, and optimize your cast rotation for maximum DPS.
Edited, Sep 24th 2007 1:13am by PriestOfSouls
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After 60+ replies and extensive, extensive testing and number crunching (credit where credit is due, Thanks to Jenovaomega for proving this), it has been determined that a CoD/Corruption/Immolate/SB rotation will provide more DPS than a plain CoD/SB spam rotation, based on 202 Hit, 25% crit, and 1300 spell damage.
However, with that being said: I have 1297 fire dmg, and 1456 shadow dmg. Jen ran those numbers, and came up with this:
NUKE
Total Damage 136068.02
Total DPS 2267.800333
dot
Total Damage 135215.91
Total DPS 2253.5985
This does not take into account my higher crit than the 25% used, but it just shows that there is a point where Nuke>dots.
Do the math, but more importantly, test it in-game.
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 11:23pm by PriestOfSouls
However, with that being said: I have 1297 fire dmg, and 1456 shadow dmg. Jen ran those numbers, and came up with this:
NUKE
Total Damage 136068.02
Total DPS 2267.800333
dot
Total Damage 135215.91
Total DPS 2253.5985
This does not take into account my higher crit than the 25% used, but it just shows that there is a point where Nuke>dots.
Do the math, but more importantly, test it in-game.
Edited, Oct 7th 2007 11:23pm by PriestOfSouls
good explainations. except you royally screwed over the spell rotation for all the specs. you forgot about IMMOLATE. regardless of spec. regardless of gear, regardless of which pet you have sacrifised it is ALWAYS 100% CERTAIN a 100% certainty to increase your total DPS.
i hope I've made that clear enough. regardless of spec. EVERY dot you have should be kept up. the 1 and only dot that we have that can be argued to not be worth while casting is siphon life and then only in certain situations
2ndly. it's not a 'hot debate'. both corruption and immolate are worthwhile casting regardless of spec or gear for a destruction and ALLL specs of warlocks.
there is always a dot rotation as a warlock, they are our most efficient form of dps and the best DPS per cast/total damage per cast time (GC usually)
finally, please PM me or loki instead of priest, sorry but your warlock knowledge doesn't seem to be anywhere near what i thought, especially seeing as you're still 'unsure' whether casting all our dots is worth it... o.0
i hope I've made that clear enough. regardless of spec. EVERY dot you have should be kept up. the 1 and only dot that we have that can be argued to not be worth while casting is siphon life and then only in certain situations
2ndly. it's not a 'hot debate'. both corruption and immolate are worthwhile casting regardless of spec or gear for a destruction and ALLL specs of warlocks.
there is always a dot rotation as a warlock, they are our most efficient form of dps and the best DPS per cast/total damage per cast time (GC usually)
finally, please PM me or loki instead of priest, sorry but your warlock knowledge doesn't seem to be anywhere near what i thought, especially seeing as you're still 'unsure' whether casting all our dots is worth it... o.0
Jen wrote:
finally, please PM me or loki instead of priest, sorry but your warlock knowledge doesn't seem to be anywhere near what i thought, especially seeing as you're still 'unsure' whether casting all our dots is worth it... o.0
Sorry Jen, but apparently some people are reading your posts, and mine, looking at you, and at me, and then making their decision on who to ask questions.
THAT says enough, you can sit here and flame me all you want, I was asked to make this post, with my opinions and what I do. Sorry your mad that they didnt ask you....but thats not my fault, so dont blame me.
Anyways, yes, it is still a hot debate, as I can go to Dr. Boom right now and hit 1600 with Immo, and 1620 w/o it.
There are a lot of things in the warlock community that are debated, not everything is set in stone like in your mind.
Have you actually tested any of what I said in game? or are you just royally pissed and throwing your unfounded warlock knowledge around? I have said many, many times that expierence is the best teacher, try it.
I'm all for having someone debate me on a topic, but not like this. I'm trying to be helpful by providing my personal expierences, what are you doing?
You are trolling. I don't think you've come across a fight yet where you can't just dot/dot/spam, and repeat. There are a lot of fights later in the game that require timing, or management if you will.
For example, our latest kill, the RoS.
Now, we dont live in a world of absolutes, like you. We test, and retest, and then do it again. For this fight, Deleterfx used Immo and Corr. I have roughly the same gear as DX, and used only Corr.
The average Immo hits for 800, and ticks for 422. Overall, it amounts to 2900 damage, for a 1.5s cast.
The average hit for his sbs in this fight is 4.5k, with crits ranging from 8.5k to 13,987.
Yes, in most situations, it is beneficial to cast Immolate. In this case, it is the second time we have tested the Immolate vs. non theory for this particular fight, and both times I have come out ahead in overall damage and dps.
I know, you can sit here and spit numbers at me all day. But Jen, I can do the math myself, I understand 100% that Immolate should boost my DPS, every time. But why cant I prove that in game? I'll find another video we have fraps'd with us testing it, this fight may not be the best one to judge, although it was extremely fun (and we actually did it decently this time, hence why im pluggin the vid).
Quote:
good explainations. except you royally screwed over the spell rotation for all the specs. you forgot about IMMOLATE. regardless of spec. regardless of gear, regardless of which pet you have sacrifised it is ALWAYS 100% CERTAIN a 100% certainty to increase your total DPS.
i hope I've made that clear enough. regardless of spec. EVERY dot you have should be kept up. the 1 and only dot that we have that can be argued to not be worth while casting is siphon life and then only in certain situations
2ndly. it's not a 'hot debate'. both corruption and immolate are worthwhile casting regardless of spec or gear for a destruction and ALLL specs of warlocks.
i hope I've made that clear enough. regardless of spec. EVERY dot you have should be kept up. the 1 and only dot that we have that can be argued to not be worth while casting is siphon life and then only in certain situations
2ndly. it's not a 'hot debate'. both corruption and immolate are worthwhile casting regardless of spec or gear for a destruction and ALLL specs of warlocks.
Sigh, no, no and no. Repeat after me, dots dont crit. Dots dont crit. Shadowbolts do crit. With ruin they crit huge. With sac'd sucubus they crit even huger (8k+). Don't waste your time casting immolate, which won't ever exceed 3k damage when your shadowbolts HIT for 4 and CRIT for 8. The less time your casting shadowbolts, the less CRITS you getting. CRIT BUILD. 0/21/40 is a CRIT BUILD.
Now yes, the upfront part of immolate can crit, but you sac'd a sucubus for +shadow damage. Like I said, immolate won't ever exceed maybe 3200 damage off a 1.5 second cast, thats with the up front portion critting. Your shadowbolts will hit for 4k+ and CRIT for 8k+. Don't waste your time spamming immolate.
Corruption I dont even think I'd cast it. 2 second cast time with no chance to crit? I'd have to see how much damage it does with the same +damage gear thats giving me 8k shadowbolt crits. If it does a steady 5k damage with that kind of gear, its probably worth casting, but I don't think it does that much.
My main beef is with your attitude of "CAST EVERY DOT EVERY SINGLE TIME NO MATTER WHAT SPEC". You couldn't be more wrong imo.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 1:11am by mikelolol
The thing is, until at least Hyjal gear, Immolate still does in the region of 500 more damage per cast second than Sbolt. Corruption is in between the two for Destro and ahead for Afflic. Supposedly, that should be you get a net increase in DPS.
The biggest problem is that DPS spreadsheets and such assume you're a god at keeping DoT's up all the time, and it doesn't always work like that. Once you hit about half Tier 5, depending on exactly how you're geared, the DPS gains by casting Corruption and Immolate can be so minimal it may not be worth the hassle of trying to keep them up all the time, especially if you have very little run-around time. They will almost *always* increase paper DPS, but not always real DPS (especially immolate). And of course if you're at the debuff cap, it's a non-argument as to whether or not they should be cast.
The biggest problem is that DPS spreadsheets and such assume you're a god at keeping DoT's up all the time, and it doesn't always work like that. Once you hit about half Tier 5, depending on exactly how you're geared, the DPS gains by casting Corruption and Immolate can be so minimal it may not be worth the hassle of trying to keep them up all the time, especially if you have very little run-around time. They will almost *always* increase paper DPS, but not always real DPS (especially immolate). And of course if you're at the debuff cap, it's a non-argument as to whether or not they should be cast.
yeah it´s funny how you all start from bt/hyjal gear and ppl saying that their sb does 4k normal and crits for 8k. I think i have pretty decent gear to start with no where near BT/Hyjal gear. I do mormal SB specced 0/21/40 at around 2,8k and crits go up to 6,8k.
Our tank has big problems keeping the aggro off me, ususally i tend to overnuke, but that is my problem i guess. The thing about destro aggro is that you just overaggro to easily if you haven´t got a very good tank and what is the point in not using the spells at your disposal once they are ready if you overaggro...considder this.
I respecced 43/7/11 as it is a very good raiding/farming/pve build.
Something about immolate, of course I would cast it always, finishing with
conflagrate. Thats my opinion.
Our tank has big problems keeping the aggro off me, ususally i tend to overnuke, but that is my problem i guess. The thing about destro aggro is that you just overaggro to easily if you haven´t got a very good tank and what is the point in not using the spells at your disposal once they are ready if you overaggro...considder this.
I respecced 43/7/11 as it is a very good raiding/farming/pve build.
Something about immolate, of course I would cast it always, finishing with
conflagrate. Thats my opinion.
dots don't need to crit to beat SB. firstly take a damage chart and take the AVERAGE damage from each spell over a boss fight. this'll include ISB on the damage, crit chance, raid buffs/debuffs and then you'll find that the total damage delt by each of your dots is still more than the AVERAGE damage of 1 shadowbolt; in raids, my average SB hit is around 2.8k, my AVERAGE SB is around 3.2k, which is STILL less damage than my dots. now seeing that in the time it takes to cast 1 shadowbolt you can get both Corruption AND immolate onto your target (0.5-1second difference not making much difference at all) and so you've basically got the total damage of 2 SBs in the time of 1.
there have been hundreds of theorycrafting done on this, and just like the 'shadow vs fire' arguement, using all our dots IS THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE YOUR DPS THROUGH LOOKING AT YOUR SPELL ROTATION.
oh and priest, i'm not angry that they chose to go to you over me, I'm just giving them some advise to not listen to what you're saying if they happen to want to be good at being a warlock. I pride myself on giving good advise and correcting people who give bad advice. this being bad advice, and seeing as you're ASKING people to pm you, then out of loyalty to this forum and to warlocks, i need to advise them against it.
the comment by Isfreak is correct, as we're saying. the dot does more damage per cast than SB and no oakenwrath, it doesn't matter if they're in BT/Hjall gear or fully naked. it still does more damage per cast.
please let me say this again. IT IS NOT A HOT TOPIC BETWEEN GOOOOOD WARLOCKS ABOUT DOTS. WE ALL KNOW THAT USING EVERY DOT IS IS IS IS IS THE BEST WAY TO IMRPOVE OUR DPS.
(enjoy me being childish in this topic. as I've said this and the damn arguement about shadow vs fire SOOO many times and always to the same people that I've come to conclusion that you must all be 5 year old kids with the attention span of a flee.)
Priest & mike. you both seem to know nothing about being a warlock as you've obviously skipped learning the basics
@ mike. yes dots can't crit. but you do caculcations using AVERAGE damage, as that takes into account the crits and still, dots are more powerful. especially once you compare damage per time spent casting. I've been raiding as a destruction build for longer than most of you, heck before I was on these forums you guys didn't even know what the stat requirements were for a destruction warlock. i remember you guys saying crit > hit, ignore stam and int, the "+damage +damage +damage" and "you're dest so you must be fire".
raiding destruction does not mean SB spam. if i purely spam just SB i manage only 1000 dps. if i add in my dots I hit 1.1-1.2k and this is SELF BUFFED. in raids I hit 1.6-1.7k dps. the difference is monumental, ESPECIALLY once you take into account that EVERY boss has phases where you can't stand there and SB. where you HAVE to move around and so you're not dpsing unless you have dots up.
my god you are all plebs
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 9:41am by Jenovaomega
there have been hundreds of theorycrafting done on this, and just like the 'shadow vs fire' arguement, using all our dots IS THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE YOUR DPS THROUGH LOOKING AT YOUR SPELL ROTATION.
oh and priest, i'm not angry that they chose to go to you over me, I'm just giving them some advise to not listen to what you're saying if they happen to want to be good at being a warlock. I pride myself on giving good advise and correcting people who give bad advice. this being bad advice, and seeing as you're ASKING people to pm you, then out of loyalty to this forum and to warlocks, i need to advise them against it.
the comment by Isfreak is correct, as we're saying. the dot does more damage per cast than SB and no oakenwrath, it doesn't matter if they're in BT/Hjall gear or fully naked. it still does more damage per cast.
please let me say this again. IT IS NOT A HOT TOPIC BETWEEN GOOOOOD WARLOCKS ABOUT DOTS. WE ALL KNOW THAT USING EVERY DOT IS IS IS IS IS THE BEST WAY TO IMRPOVE OUR DPS.
(enjoy me being childish in this topic. as I've said this and the damn arguement about shadow vs fire SOOO many times and always to the same people that I've come to conclusion that you must all be 5 year old kids with the attention span of a flee.)
Priest & mike. you both seem to know nothing about being a warlock as you've obviously skipped learning the basics
@ mike. yes dots can't crit. but you do caculcations using AVERAGE damage, as that takes into account the crits and still, dots are more powerful. especially once you compare damage per time spent casting. I've been raiding as a destruction build for longer than most of you, heck before I was on these forums you guys didn't even know what the stat requirements were for a destruction warlock. i remember you guys saying crit > hit, ignore stam and int, the "+damage +damage +damage" and "you're dest so you must be fire".
raiding destruction does not mean SB spam. if i purely spam just SB i manage only 1000 dps. if i add in my dots I hit 1.1-1.2k and this is SELF BUFFED. in raids I hit 1.6-1.7k dps. the difference is monumental, ESPECIALLY once you take into account that EVERY boss has phases where you can't stand there and SB. where you HAVE to move around and so you're not dpsing unless you have dots up.
my god you are all plebs
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 9:41am by Jenovaomega
oh i know that stuff about them DoT´s, jenova!
but what i was saying is that often people come here and talk about
bt/hyjal gear like it was a 5-man heroic or something. it´s a damn damn long way to there. and most speccs should evolve around affliction at least half of that damn long way, since you gear will probably not providing enough +hit/+crit and in the same instance +dmg.
but what i was saying is that often people come here and talk about
bt/hyjal gear like it was a 5-man heroic or something. it´s a damn damn long way to there. and most speccs should evolve around affliction at least half of that damn long way, since you gear will probably not providing enough +hit/+crit and in the same instance +dmg.
/agree oaken, sorry for putting you with the rest :)
Quote:
Priest & mike. you both seem to know nothing about being a warlock as you've obviously skipped learning the basics
@ mike. yes dots can't crit. but you do caculcations using AVERAGE damage, as that takes into account the crits and still, dots are more powerful. especially once you compare damage per time spent casting. I've been raiding as a destruction build for longer than most of you, heck before I was on these forums you guys didn't even know what the stat requirements were for a destruction warlock. i remember you guys saying crit > hit, ignore stam and int, the "+damage +damage +damage" and "you're dest so you must be fire".
raiding destruction does not mean SB spam. if i purely spam just SB i manage only 1000 dps. if i add in my dots I hit 1.1-1.2k and this is SELF BUFFED. in raids I hit 1.6-1.7k dps. the difference is monumental, ESPECIALLY once you take into account that EVERY boss has phases where you can't stand there and SB. where you HAVE to move around and so you're not dpsing unless you have dots up.
@ mike. yes dots can't crit. but you do caculcations using AVERAGE damage, as that takes into account the crits and still, dots are more powerful. especially once you compare damage per time spent casting. I've been raiding as a destruction build for longer than most of you, heck before I was on these forums you guys didn't even know what the stat requirements were for a destruction warlock. i remember you guys saying crit > hit, ignore stam and int, the "+damage +damage +damage" and "you're dest so you must be fire".
raiding destruction does not mean SB spam. if i purely spam just SB i manage only 1000 dps. if i add in my dots I hit 1.1-1.2k and this is SELF BUFFED. in raids I hit 1.6-1.7k dps. the difference is monumental, ESPECIALLY once you take into account that EVERY boss has phases where you can't stand there and SB. where you HAVE to move around and so you're not dpsing unless you have dots up.
Jen, this is obviously over your head, as you are still using the basics. Its time to evolve. You hit 1.6k dps raid buffed. thats awesome, I do it solo. I think thats the reason you choose to Karma bomb me, but that was expected.
Youll have to explain to me how you completely ignored my other post. How are dots more powerful? I showed you the video, which you also ignored. The total Immolate damage is 2900, and the average SB hit is 4500, with crits up to 14k. So how are dots more powerful?
You are ignoring blatant issues, and saying the me and mike are "bad warlocks" and your a "good warlock, doing the basics", claiming "loyalty to this forum of warlocks." Right.
I use to view you a notch below Loki (aka, pretty high on my Totem Pole). Needless to say, that has changed.
Quote:
now seeing that in the time it takes to cast 1 shadowbolt you can get both Corruption AND immolate onto your target (0.5-1second difference not making much difference at all)
Jen, the global cooldowns from any 2 spells alone are more than the cast time it takes for 1 shadowbolt. If your going to make this agruement, then you could also argue CoA>CoD, because hey, whats a couple seconds lost?
(0.5-1second difference not making much difference at all)
Thats where you and I differ then, I'm more for optimization, .5-1s is a huge deal to me, apparently lost time isnt to you.
Quote:
@ mike. yes dots can't crit. but you do caculcations using AVERAGE damage, as that takes into account the crits and still, dots are more powerful.
Please, this time dont skip and read only what suits you, but actually DO the calculations.
THEN, actually READ what I said. Reading the whole post is a basic issue I assumed you had under control, apparently you dont, so I'll make it easy for you by quoting myself.
Quote:
I know, you can sit here and spit numbers at me all day. But Jen, I can do the math myself, I understand 100% that Immolate should boost my DPS, every time. But why cant I prove that in game?
You value forum number crunching over in-game values. I don't. Whatever gets me the highest possible in-game DPS is what I'm going to do, not what you tell me "we all know".
And I'm curious Jen, where do you get your information from? Just yourself? Do you even have someone in-game your comparing against? Do you go to any other forums besides this one?
It seems to me that all your information comes from.....your head. What I provided was a collaboration of ongoing research from multiple sites, not set-in-stone confounded information from one warlock.
And also:
Quote:
i remember you guys saying crit > hit, ignore stam and int, the "+damage +damage +damage" and "you're dest so you must be fire".
I want you to find 1 single post where I said fire>shadow, ever.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said crit>hit.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said ignore stamina and intellect.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said +dmg +dmg +dmg.
I look forward to calling your a bold faced liar, /cheers for attempting to discredit your opponent through blatant, unfounded lies.
Edit: wanted to add this in:
Jen wrote:
my god you are all plebs
always an excellent way to add credibility, by getting so frustrated you resort to comments like this. /thank
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 11:47am by PriestOfSouls
*looking for her "loling plebs" smiley*
priestofsouls can i have your armorylink pls.
i don´t think i have ever seen a warlock who just spams SBs.
i don´t think i have ever seen a warlock who just spams SBs.
priest
1. you never showed me any video
2. link your armoury + make a vid of you doing SOLO 1.6k DPS on a single target mob and i'll believe you. but I doubt even buzzkill can manage more than 1.4-1.5k dps self buffed solo and he's arguably the best equiped warlock in the game
3.how did I not prove that dots deal more damage? i was explaining that their total damage per cast is greeater than that of a single shadowbolt
4. LOL 4.5k SB hits, 14k crits? what are you smoking because I want some too. for starters even the best equiped warlocks can only manage 4.5k HITS with ISB on the target and while using their trinkets, to manage a 14k CRIT would mean a 9k hit which is only going to happen on netherspite or curator.
5. I've always done the calculations. look through the vast majority of any topic on here which is about shadow vs fire, dot or not to dot and you'll find mine and loki's theorycraft, also i do read all the posts.
6. i don't value forum number crunching over ingame values at all. I value both. i use the number crunching to do the basic comparisons between specs, then when i find specs with similar dps I test it out, both solo on Dr.Boom and in raids. heck I've raided in just about every viable spec with every possible spell rotations, oh and guess what. dots always improved my dps.
7. the simple fact that you think 4.5k HITS and '14k crits' are more than plausable shows that you know nothing about warlocks
8. why do I know I'm right on this issue? could it be that I'm a severe OCD suffering perfectionist who has spent days and days just going through calculations and practical tests to make sure what he does is the best? quite possibly. could my maths and practical tests be wrong? well having completed the first year of university grade maths at the age of 15 and also rechecking all the calculations and checking my timings in practical tests I'd have to say the chance is pretty damn low.
9. where do i get my information from? how about 130days of playtime on my warlock, of which, since the moment i hit 60 and after the 2 weeks it took to get to 70 I've been raiding. how about having followed these forums, the official forums, dps meters, self tests, conversations with other warlocks who i rate as being damn good at their own class? how about that I've been consistantly providing accurate details about warlocks for nearing the past 18 months? those all valid sources? oh and what about the OCD perfectionist maths genius side too?
i'll change the last line of my previous post, it's not "my god you're all plebs". it's "my god priest, you're a pleb".
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 12:16pm by Jenovaomega
1. you never showed me any video
2. link your armoury + make a vid of you doing SOLO 1.6k DPS on a single target mob and i'll believe you. but I doubt even buzzkill can manage more than 1.4-1.5k dps self buffed solo and he's arguably the best equiped warlock in the game
3.how did I not prove that dots deal more damage? i was explaining that their total damage per cast is greeater than that of a single shadowbolt
4. LOL 4.5k SB hits, 14k crits? what are you smoking because I want some too. for starters even the best equiped warlocks can only manage 4.5k HITS with ISB on the target and while using their trinkets, to manage a 14k CRIT would mean a 9k hit which is only going to happen on netherspite or curator.
5. I've always done the calculations. look through the vast majority of any topic on here which is about shadow vs fire, dot or not to dot and you'll find mine and loki's theorycraft, also i do read all the posts.
6. i don't value forum number crunching over ingame values at all. I value both. i use the number crunching to do the basic comparisons between specs, then when i find specs with similar dps I test it out, both solo on Dr.Boom and in raids. heck I've raided in just about every viable spec with every possible spell rotations, oh and guess what. dots always improved my dps.
7. the simple fact that you think 4.5k HITS and '14k crits' are more than plausable shows that you know nothing about warlocks
8. why do I know I'm right on this issue? could it be that I'm a severe OCD suffering perfectionist who has spent days and days just going through calculations and practical tests to make sure what he does is the best? quite possibly. could my maths and practical tests be wrong? well having completed the first year of university grade maths at the age of 15 and also rechecking all the calculations and checking my timings in practical tests I'd have to say the chance is pretty damn low.
9. where do i get my information from? how about 130days of playtime on my warlock, of which, since the moment i hit 60 and after the 2 weeks it took to get to 70 I've been raiding. how about having followed these forums, the official forums, dps meters, self tests, conversations with other warlocks who i rate as being damn good at their own class? how about that I've been consistantly providing accurate details about warlocks for nearing the past 18 months? those all valid sources? oh and what about the OCD perfectionist maths genius side too?
i'll change the last line of my previous post, it's not "my god you're all plebs". it's "my god priest, you're a pleb".
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 12:16pm by Jenovaomega
Again, for someone who claims to be a perfectionist, your are an illiterate one at that. Allow me to, once again, quote myself.
So, lets see here. That takes care of numbers 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 of your post. Wow, 5 of your "points" just got eliminated, for not reading....
Ok, where did you explain it? because this:
Is not an explanation, at all.
So this is your only point of reference. thats nice to know. And I just proved that no, you dont read all the posts.
as far as your sympathy pitch, aka you being a "OCD perfectionist maths genius", that has absolutely zero to do with the topic at hand. I'm 24, double majored in Mechanical Engineering and Mathematics, currently re-enrolled at the University of Alabama getting my Masters in Mech Engineering, but thats not relevant information is it?
130 days played is a lot, but by no means the highest. 212 is what I'm sitting on, and DFX in the video is at 24x. And, you apparently started raiding in TBC before I did. So, why are you lagging so far behind?
My name is Stilfor.
In closing, I would like to quote myself, yet again.
So, no links to any posts where I have said any of the above, even though I was accused of doing all 4.
Edit: Had to fix the link in my quote.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 12:41pm by PriestOfSouls
me wrote:
You are trolling. I don't think you've come across a fight yet where you can't just dot/dot/spam, and repeat. There are a lot of fights later in the game that require timing, or management if you will.
For example, our latest kill, the RoS.
Now, we dont live in a world of absolutes, like you. We test, and retest, and then do it again. For this fight, Deleterfx used Immo and Corr. I have roughly the same gear as DX, and used only Corr.
The average Immo hits for 800, and ticks for 422. Overall, it amounts to 2900 damage, for a 1.5s cast.
The average hit for his sbs in this fight is 4.5k, with crits ranging from 8.5k to 13,987.
For example, our latest kill, the RoS.
Now, we dont live in a world of absolutes, like you. We test, and retest, and then do it again. For this fight, Deleterfx used Immo and Corr. I have roughly the same gear as DX, and used only Corr.
The average Immo hits for 800, and ticks for 422. Overall, it amounts to 2900 damage, for a 1.5s cast.
The average hit for his sbs in this fight is 4.5k, with crits ranging from 8.5k to 13,987.
So, lets see here. That takes care of numbers 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 of your post. Wow, 5 of your "points" just got eliminated, for not reading....
Jen wrote:
3.how did I not prove that dots deal more damage? i was explaining that their total damage per cast is greeater than that of a single shadowbolt
Ok, where did you explain it? because this:
Quote:
WE ALL KNOW THAT USING EVERY DOT IS IS IS IS IS THE BEST WAY TO IMRPOVE OUR DPS.
Is not an explanation, at all.
Quote:
5. I've always done the calculations. look through the vast majority of any topic on here which is about shadow vs fire, dot or not to dot and you'll find mine and loki's theorycraft, also i do read all the posts.
So this is your only point of reference. thats nice to know. And I just proved that no, you dont read all the posts.
as far as your sympathy pitch, aka you being a "OCD perfectionist maths genius", that has absolutely zero to do with the topic at hand. I'm 24, double majored in Mechanical Engineering and Mathematics, currently re-enrolled at the University of Alabama getting my Masters in Mech Engineering, but thats not relevant information is it?
Quote:
where do i get my information from? how about 130days of playtime on my warlock, of which, since the moment i hit 60 and after the 2 weeks it took to get to 70 I've been raiding.
130 days played is a lot, but by no means the highest. 212 is what I'm sitting on, and DFX in the video is at 24x. And, you apparently started raiding in TBC before I did. So, why are you lagging so far behind?
Quote:
priestofsouls can i have your armorylink pls.
My name is Stilfor.
In closing, I would like to quote myself, yet again.
Quote:
I want you to find 1 single post where I said fire>shadow, ever.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said crit>hit.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said ignore stamina and intellect.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said +dmg +dmg +dmg.
I look forward to calling your a bold faced liar, /cheers for attempting to discredit your opponent through blatant, unfounded lies.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said crit>hit.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said ignore stamina and intellect.
I want you to find 1 single post where I said +dmg +dmg +dmg.
I look forward to calling your a bold faced liar, /cheers for attempting to discredit your opponent through blatant, unfounded lies.
So, no links to any posts where I have said any of the above, even though I was accused of doing all 4.
Edit: Had to fix the link in my quote.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 12:41pm by PriestOfSouls
well I just took your gear, done the maths on the highest rank of SB and the highest SB hit you'll manage (without including trinket. but including full raid buffs and ISB on target) is roughly 3.9k while using the max end of SB. so taking into acount that ISB isn't going to be up constantly, this average will be more around 3.7k which is FAR from your 4.5k hit, or 9-13k crits.. you sir, are talking S H I T.
I'd like to say that I have no reason to carry on my arguement, I'll leave the rest up to the readers, so to all you readers. please remember that this person is both mathmatically illiterate, but also can't distinguish between a CoD proc for 13k damage and a shadowbolt crit.
oh and does it really matter if i'm 'illiterate' (though I'd like to think i'm far from that). yeah I have some issues spelling, and yes I have a habbit of repeating sentences sometimes without knowing (ever heard of dislecia, and yes. miss spelt)
POST EDIT
seeing as i'm not a paying member of this forum, trying to search through every post you ever made would be far to much effort. though that wasn't aimed specifically at you, though I do believe you used to preach that FSW is better than T4, which would kinda go for the "damage damage damage" and the "ignore stam and int" catagory.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 12:55pm by Jenovaomega
I'd like to say that I have no reason to carry on my arguement, I'll leave the rest up to the readers, so to all you readers. please remember that this person is both mathmatically illiterate, but also can't distinguish between a CoD proc for 13k damage and a shadowbolt crit.
oh and does it really matter if i'm 'illiterate' (though I'd like to think i'm far from that). yeah I have some issues spelling, and yes I have a habbit of repeating sentences sometimes without knowing (ever heard of dislecia, and yes. miss spelt)
POST EDIT
seeing as i'm not a paying member of this forum, trying to search through every post you ever made would be far to much effort. though that wasn't aimed specifically at you, though I do believe you used to preach that FSW is better than T4, which would kinda go for the "damage damage damage" and the "ignore stam and int" catagory.
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 12:55pm by Jenovaomega
Quote:
seeing as i'm not a paying member of this forum, trying to search through every post you ever made would be far to much effort. though that wasn't aimed specifically at you, though I do believe you used to preach that FSW is better than T4, which would kinda go for the "damage damage damage" and the "ignore stam and int" catagory.
Translation for the readers, as you say:
You cant do it, because it doesn't exist.
Allow me to disprove you, once again. This is the FSW thread that you are refering to. You can read all 4 pages of it, and you wont find not one single post of mine. I have never commented on the FSW set, as I have never used it. Therefore, that topic would be entirely pointless for me to engage in.
Jen, I counted on you doing the math, hence why I made a video of it!
Once again, to quote myself for the 3rd time, the point you are blatantly missing here:
mex3 wrote:
I know, you can sit here and spit numbers at me all day. But Jen, I can do the math myself, I understand 100% that Immolate should boost my DPS, every time. But why cant I prove that in game?
Jen wrote:
I'd like to say that I have no reason to carry on my arguement, I'll leave the rest up to the readers, so to all you readers. please remember that this person is both mathmatically illiterate, but also can't distinguish between a CoD proc for 13k damage and a shadowbolt crit.
You have no foothold left for your arguement. And if you honestly hope to discredit me by saying I can't distinguish between a CoD hit and a sb crit....wow, deperation has set in.
thank god for SCT Stickies. once again, if you watch the video, you'll see this:
13,987 (Shadowbolt) stickied in the crit pane of sct. So, if your going to use your dyslexia (spelled correctly) as another crutch....
your now an OCD suffering perfectionist with dyslexia?
And how am I mathematically illiterate? I have asked you repeatedly for the calculations, and this is what you said:
Quote:
well I just took your gear, done the maths on the highest rank of SB
I'm glad that you "done the maths", but any idiot can plug in numbers to a DPS Spreadsheet. What did you use? How did you do it? what is accounted for? Why are you still dodging the question of ingame>forum numbers?
your entire arguement is about this 'video' I would LOVE to see it, i'm sure oaken would to as you keep on commenting about it and how it proves everything, while you just haven't linked it and ok, I'm wrong about what you said about FSW and the other crap. currently you've provided no proof or evidence about 'your way to play lock' now do i need to get out the full theory craft, say taking an entire 1minute spell rotation (so including CoD damage) and compare the total damage and DPS according to your gear and buffs? because I'm 100% certain you'll find that you'll be wrong
i've been rocking the 30/21/10 spec through BT/hyjal and it isn't as good as 0/21/40 but i'm still trying it out.
regardless of what spec you are, immolate is ALWAYS worthwhile casting. simply checking the DPS of SB and comparing it to immolate should be argument enough. you'll never have enough shadow damage to compensate / or lack of fire damage.
regardless of what spec you are, immolate is ALWAYS worthwhile casting. simply checking the DPS of SB and comparing it to immolate should be argument enough. you'll never have enough shadow damage to compensate / or lack of fire damage.
silfor, read this thread
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11799-warlock_how_do_you_do_high_dps/
and then **** off, because you're wrong.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11799-warlock_how_do_you_do_high_dps/
and then **** off, because you're wrong.
the people have spoken ^^
post edit
keviriggy, ya. totally agree. except priest here seems to think that NEITHER Corruption or immolate are worthwhile casting in a 0/21/40 build... o.0
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 2:22pm by Jenovaomega
post edit
keviriggy, ya. totally agree. except priest here seems to think that NEITHER Corruption or immolate are worthwhile casting in a 0/21/40 build... o.0
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 2:22pm by Jenovaomega
Jen, I have repeatedly linked the video, and you are simply neglecting to acknowledge it.
Im curious as to many of "the people" have the crit to properly manage a 21/40 build?
I quick look at my profile will reveal a 21.25% crit, coupled with devastation gives a 26.25% crit.
Now, add in raid buffs: +5% from boomkin, +3% from Totem of Wrath, and the +3% from our resident pally. Totalling: 37.25% crit.
Perhaps this will help: stop thinking about it as a non-crit build.
My Immolate will hit for about 800 average, while critting for roughly 1600.
My SB will hit for 4k, while critting around 8k. The ticks from Immolate will not crit.
1 out of 3 of my spells will crit. If that crit lands on an immolate, I just wasted 6400 damage that I would have gotten from a SB crit. Do you know how many Immolate cycles it will take to make up the 6400 damage lost? 2+, which means I need 36+ seconds of Immolate rotation to make up the difference in damage, as my Immolates total around 2900.
Think of it like that. would you trade 1 second of casting for 6400 damage?
Yes.
It's not about dots, its about crits. An Immolate crit is wasted potential damage.
21/40 is not a dot build. It's all about crits.
Im curious as to many of "the people" have the crit to properly manage a 21/40 build?
I quick look at my profile will reveal a 21.25% crit, coupled with devastation gives a 26.25% crit.
Now, add in raid buffs: +5% from boomkin, +3% from Totem of Wrath, and the +3% from our resident pally. Totalling: 37.25% crit.
Perhaps this will help: stop thinking about it as a non-crit build.
My Immolate will hit for about 800 average, while critting for roughly 1600.
My SB will hit for 4k, while critting around 8k. The ticks from Immolate will not crit.
1 out of 3 of my spells will crit. If that crit lands on an immolate, I just wasted 6400 damage that I would have gotten from a SB crit. Do you know how many Immolate cycles it will take to make up the 6400 damage lost? 2+, which means I need 36+ seconds of Immolate rotation to make up the difference in damage, as my Immolates total around 2900.
Think of it like that. would you trade 1 second of casting for 6400 damage?
Yes.
It's not about dots, its about crits. An Immolate crit is wasted potential damage.
21/40 is not a dot build. It's all about crits.
and you think I don't have those 3 classes in my party? well i'll admit. we don't use ret pallies, but we have the rest so I'm hitting 37% crit too, and why would i think "you're a non-crit spec"? I've looked at 'your' armoury, I know it's heavy on the crit but still dots increase my dps. and they all have the crit to manage a 0/21/40 build, seeing as the 'crit to manage it' is 20% before devestation minimum, after that 20% the bonus gained from extra crit dimishes as ISB will already be up for the vast majority of the fights
oh. I had a long look through all your posts in here, finally found the vid hidden in one of your long posts tagged as RoS, and only posted once, not repeatedly like you say. did you not get the memo? crits, hits and DPS on bosses with special debuffs that increase the damage they take are not counted in conversations about DPS or highests crits or average damage.
just for incase you didn't know. the ability is called "Deaden" and is used during the second phase "essence of desire". , it's a 1second cast that increases damage taken by 100% for 10 seconds and can be spell reflected, which is what you tank is meant to always do.
oh, another comment. you say you're a 0/21/40 warlock who doesn't use corruption OR immolate, while I definately saw on that video the warlock using corruption AND immolate constantly.
another thing. as I said with that gear and spec, the warlock in that vid was hitting for roughly 3.9k when the boss didn't have that debuff up.
oh, something i find fishy... you had to check your own armoury to know what your own crit rate was? would know their own spell rotation, you sure that's your warlock? I would have thought that someone with that type of gear would obviously know enough about their character to quote their stats without even thinking.
oh, in that vid 'you' didn't have a moonkin or ret pally, heck I've even done some checking up on phase two, they only have 1 retribution pally, and he wasn't in that vid either. and finally. that's not a DPS meter. that's a threat meter. you're mistaking 1.6k dps for 1.6k threat per second. and something he only managed when the boss was debuffed with the damage increase
no offence mate, but you talk more crap than a plumber. stop trying to take the credit for someone elses character
POST EDIT
I really wish I could get onto the american realms. I'd love to log on. /w stilfor and ask "yo man, sorry to interupt you but do you post on the wow allakazham forums under the name 'priestofsouls'?"
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 4:16pm by Jenovaomega
oh. I had a long look through all your posts in here, finally found the vid hidden in one of your long posts tagged as RoS, and only posted once, not repeatedly like you say. did you not get the memo? crits, hits and DPS on bosses with special debuffs that increase the damage they take are not counted in conversations about DPS or highests crits or average damage.
just for incase you didn't know. the ability is called "Deaden" and is used during the second phase "essence of desire". , it's a 1second cast that increases damage taken by 100% for 10 seconds and can be spell reflected, which is what you tank is meant to always do.
oh, another comment. you say you're a 0/21/40 warlock who doesn't use corruption OR immolate, while I definately saw on that video the warlock using corruption AND immolate constantly.
another thing. as I said with that gear and spec, the warlock in that vid was hitting for roughly 3.9k when the boss didn't have that debuff up.
oh, something i find fishy... you had to check your own armoury to know what your own crit rate was? would know their own spell rotation, you sure that's your warlock? I would have thought that someone with that type of gear would obviously know enough about their character to quote their stats without even thinking.
oh, in that vid 'you' didn't have a moonkin or ret pally, heck I've even done some checking up on phase two, they only have 1 retribution pally, and he wasn't in that vid either. and finally. that's not a DPS meter. that's a threat meter. you're mistaking 1.6k dps for 1.6k threat per second. and something he only managed when the boss was debuffed with the damage increase
no offence mate, but you talk more crap than a plumber. stop trying to take the credit for someone elses character
POST EDIT
I really wish I could get onto the american realms. I'd love to log on. /w stilfor and ask "yo man, sorry to interupt you but do you post on the wow allakazham forums under the name 'priestofsouls'?"
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 4:16pm by Jenovaomega
Sigh, just look at basic numbers Jenova
Lets say you're raid buffed in Mt Hjyal
1500 shadow damage
1250 spell damage
33% spell crit
Spec - 0/21/40 shadow, sac'd sucubus
Shadowbolts - 2.5s cast, hit for 4600, crit for 9200
Immolate - 1.5s cast, hit for 1000, crit for 2000, dot does 1200
Corruption - 2s cast, will not crit, does flat 5k damage
Explain to me, why would you ever cast anything but shadowbolt?
Lets say you're raid buffed in Mt Hjyal
1500 shadow damage
1250 spell damage
33% spell crit
Spec - 0/21/40 shadow, sac'd sucubus
Shadowbolts - 2.5s cast, hit for 4600, crit for 9200
Immolate - 1.5s cast, hit for 1000, crit for 2000, dot does 1200
Corruption - 2s cast, will not crit, does flat 5k damage
Explain to me, why would you ever cast anything but shadowbolt?
well for starters. your maths are appauling. you came to a conclusion of 4.6k SB hits from that? sorry but with those stats its more around 3.7-3.8k including ISB. 2ndly you're taking into account Spriest and CoS buff but not taking into account misery and improved scorch for immolate. in my gear, with sac'd succy I average 3.4k SBs and total average immolate damage of 3.2k(initial+dot)
now damage per cast time
SB 3.4k over 2.5seconds, or 1.36k per seconds cast, 8.1 damage per mana point
imm 3.2k over 1.5seconds, or 2.13k per seconds cast, 7.19 damage per mana point
scale this up. in the 2.5seconds it takes to cast SB, imm is worth 5.33k damage
cor 3k damage for 2sec cast, or 1.5k per seconds cast, 8.1 damage per mana point
scaled up. 3.75k per 2.5seconds
did i make the maths easy enough for you?
POST EDIT
thought i'd add damage per mana to as mana efficiency should also be covered. as you can see, corruption and SB share the same efficiency if you sac your succy. immolate lags behind a bit but is still more than high enough to make it worth while to use
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 5:11pm by Jenovaomega
now damage per cast time
SB 3.4k over 2.5seconds, or 1.36k per seconds cast, 8.1 damage per mana point
imm 3.2k over 1.5seconds, or 2.13k per seconds cast, 7.19 damage per mana point
scale this up. in the 2.5seconds it takes to cast SB, imm is worth 5.33k damage
cor 3k damage for 2sec cast, or 1.5k per seconds cast, 8.1 damage per mana point
scaled up. 3.75k per 2.5seconds
did i make the maths easy enough for you?
POST EDIT
thought i'd add damage per mana to as mana efficiency should also be covered. as you can see, corruption and SB share the same efficiency if you sac your succy. immolate lags behind a bit but is still more than high enough to make it worth while to use
Edited, Sep 21st 2007 5:11pm by Jenovaomega
Quote:
well for starters. your maths are appauling. you came to a conclusion of 4.6k SB hits from that? sorry but with those stats its more around 3.7-3.8k including ISB. 2ndly you're taking into account Spriest and CoS buff but not taking into account misery and improved scorch for immolate. in my gear, with sac'd succy I average 3.4k SBs and total average immolate damage of 3.2k(initial+dot)
First of all, you're never taking ISB into account, with that crit rate its up all the time. And I'm looking "at your gear", you have 977 spell damage with fel armor, yet you think a 1500 shadow damage lock only hits their shadowbolts for 400 more damage then you? Are you that naive? Raid buffed bla bla you'll hit 1150 tops, 350 damage is huge (look at the difference a +150 damage for 15 seconds trinket makes).
Yes you have crusades bla bla. I should have been more clear, a lock going into Hyjal would have more buffed +damage then that (1600ish buffed).
This thread is pointless, everyones just throwing around random numbers and its going nowhere. I could argue back that you're completely understating the effects of shadowbolt damage, SnF, ruin, ISB, sac'd succy, all of which you are ignoring, and you're basically going off random numbers. My gears about the same as yours, sure I could pad a bunch of +spell damage gems like you, ignore my hit and have more +damage. I routinely hit 3.6-3.7k shadowbolts in a ruin spec, 3850-4k with trinket popped, and thats with 1230 raid buffed damage, and I don't have a single piece of T5 gear. I'm speaking of locks who are farming Kael'thas, have many late drops from SSC/TK and maybe even a piece from Hyjal. They will routinely hit SB's for the numbers I put up, ISB will ALWAYS be up with 33% crit rate, and when ruin hits they're bolts are hitting on the 9k-9.6k damage range. Up until that point (pre-Hyjal gear) I'd probably agree with you, keep dots up, but after that its just BS. My whole beef with this thread was your attitude of "DOTS UP 100% OF THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT GEAR".
I don't stay that spec because I don't have the crit to sustain it, and I prefer affliction in my current gear, and I wouldn't go destruction until I see some late T5 equiv drops, around the time we're starting Hyjal.
Anyway I'm done with this thread, 99% of people who read it will never see Mt Hyjal so the point is irrelevent to them. Most people cast your dots, if you're in Kael'thas level gear doing Mt Hyjal don't bother.
I love how you stated locks at that level are hitting bolts for 3.8k but you're T4 lock hits 3.4-3.6k, nice 'maths'. I'm out.
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