I was seriously considering this today...
How do you keep yourself alive w/o Spiritual Focus? (This is assuming you have enough points for BoSanc but not enough for SF.)
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7 posts
Generally, SoL/JoL does a fine job of keeping you healed - especially when Reckoning procs.
I'm not sure what level you mean by "low level", but I respecced over to Prot at 32 and am not having a hard time at all keeping myself alive with 3-4 mobs beating on me. Occasionally (e.g., when Reckoning doesn't proc as much as I'd like... since it's not maxed out yet) I'll have to bubble and heal, but it's pretty infrequent.
LilShieste
I'm not sure what level you mean by "low level", but I respecced over to Prot at 32 and am not having a hard time at all keeping myself alive with 3-4 mobs beating on me. Occasionally (e.g., when Reckoning doesn't proc as much as I'd like... since it's not maxed out yet) I'll have to bubble and heal, but it's pretty infrequent.
LilShieste
Sounds great! Could I get a link to your Armory?
I'm just doubful the ~30hp a proc from SoL was gonna be able to keep me alive with 3-4 mobs beating on me.
I'm just doubful the ~30hp a proc from SoL was gonna be able to keep me alive with 3-4 mobs beating on me.
It has a 40% chance to proc, with reckoning (assuming you are level 35+) it procs a lot, so its like having a constant HoT on yourself. Frankly I preferred JoW, since mana gave me heals and dps. However I had Spiritual Focus, so casting a heal was less of an issue when solo.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I must be seriously missing something here, basically SoL/JoW or the reverse...?
Hows does mana convert into DPS? Whenever Judgement is up, JoR? Does JoR clear JoW?
And to have capped Reckoning and SF... you'd have to be lv45 at least I think...?
Sorry, just started on Paladin, and I'm trying to figure it out as best I can. (Old school FF :P Gotta research everything beforehand, heh.)
Hows does mana convert into DPS? Whenever Judgement is up, JoR? Does JoR clear JoW?
And to have capped Reckoning and SF... you'd have to be lv45 at least I think...?
Sorry, just started on Paladin, and I'm trying to figure it out as best I can. (Old school FF :P Gotta research everything beforehand, heh.)
Well a WoW Pally is very different from a FFXI PLD so hope you can adjust ;)
Judge wisdom, use SoL or Judge light and use light. The wisdom doesnt convert into dps, it convers into heals and more seals.
AOE grinding is not about spamming SoR/JoR, it's about porcupining your enemies to death. No JoR does not clear JoW.
It really just takes practice and figuring out how much you can take and when you should use certain seals, etc..
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 10:37am by CapJack
Judge wisdom, use SoL or Judge light and use light. The wisdom doesnt convert into dps, it convers into heals and more seals.
AOE grinding is not about spamming SoR/JoR, it's about porcupining your enemies to death. No JoR does not clear JoW.
It really just takes practice and figuring out how much you can take and when you should use certain seals, etc..
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 10:37am by CapJack
Speaking as someone who used prot aoe to level from 32 to 58 and then from 68 to 70, I never specced for spiritual focus unless I WASN'T levelling prot. Any time I ever needed to heal while prot grinding, I would heal by using a bubble, healing/bandaging, and going right back to what I was doing.
The reason for this is simple. When you're aoe grinding, the point is that with redoubt up you shield block all the time. This is the majority of your damage mitigation. When you're casting a spell--even if, thanks to spiritual focus and concentration aura, you have 0 chance to be interrupted--you cannot shield block. So that means that when you get low on health, by healing yourself you also increase your damage taken by a lot each time. This means more heals, more spent mana, AND (and this is important), when you turn on concentration aura to heal, you lose your retribution aura. This may not seem like alot, but in addition to losing the dps, you're also losing two global cooldowns--that's 3 seconds--and when you're low on health, that makes a BIG difference.
I recommend going instead for Ardent Defender. I find that many times I'll be grinding and between seal of light and judgement of light, my health will drop steadily--UNTIL I reach the 35% mark (I believe) where Ardent Defender kicks in, and cuts all my damage taken--and then my health will just level off, and stay there until all the mobs are dead. 35% is just about the time you'd want to heal yourself using spiritual focus, which messes up your timing.
Basically, just keep yourself equipped with a fast weapon. The Sword of Omen is a good choice (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=6802&locale=enUS;source=live), I used that one for ages. You definitely want to stay under 2.0 attack speed if you can.
The reason for this is simple. When you're aoe grinding, the point is that with redoubt up you shield block all the time. This is the majority of your damage mitigation. When you're casting a spell--even if, thanks to spiritual focus and concentration aura, you have 0 chance to be interrupted--you cannot shield block. So that means that when you get low on health, by healing yourself you also increase your damage taken by a lot each time. This means more heals, more spent mana, AND (and this is important), when you turn on concentration aura to heal, you lose your retribution aura. This may not seem like alot, but in addition to losing the dps, you're also losing two global cooldowns--that's 3 seconds--and when you're low on health, that makes a BIG difference.
I recommend going instead for Ardent Defender. I find that many times I'll be grinding and between seal of light and judgement of light, my health will drop steadily--UNTIL I reach the 35% mark (I believe) where Ardent Defender kicks in, and cuts all my damage taken--and then my health will just level off, and stay there until all the mobs are dead. 35% is just about the time you'd want to heal yourself using spiritual focus, which messes up your timing.
Basically, just keep yourself equipped with a fast weapon. The Sword of Omen is a good choice (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=6802&locale=enUS;source=live), I used that one for ages. You definitely want to stay under 2.0 attack speed if you can.
Malgayne wrote:
Speaking as someone who used prot aoe to level from 32 to 58 and then from 68 to 70, I never specced for spiritual focus unless I WASN'T levelling prot. Any time I ever needed to heal while prot grinding, I would heal by using a bubble, healing/bandaging, and going right back to what I was doing.
Good point.
I also leveled 35-58 prot. Most of the time I kept JoR up, few elite encounters I would bust out BoW, JoW. If I needed to heal I would bubble/heal or just avoid the situation all together by making sure I wasn't going into a fight half c'ocked.
That being said as a Paladin your mana is a source of heals and a source of damage. Seals, Judgements, Exorcism, Holyfire, Crusader Strike etc all are mana based attacks. Having a full mana bar means you can heal yourself, or pump out burst dps.
For example I could fight an Elite of equivalent level at lvl 40, start off with JoC/SoR, heal myself up, and do normal damage, when mana bar was at 50% drop JoW and with a reckoning proc get back to 75% mana, heal myself and keep dps up at the same time. Where JoL might have forced me to heal less I would still be healing and using mana to dps and eventually run out of mana, when I am out of mana my heals are gone and my dps is wimpy. Why I preferred JoW over JoL.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Malgayne wrote:
I never specced for spiritual focus unless I WASN'T levelling prot
Sorry, I didn't quite get what this means... you mean to say you never had SF while you were levelling as Prot?
Also, I understand that Prot levelling isn't spamming S/JoR, I referred to this in response to:
bodhisattva wrote:
Frankly I preferred JoW, since mana gave me heals and dps
Couldn't quite wrap my mind around how to convert mana into dps. >.<"
And regarding not being able to block while casting, wouldn't this mean that SF would in fact be good since it translates into less time casting, since there's less chance of losing cast time to damage interruptions?
For weapon choice... getting a weapon with lower than 2.0 speed basically means that S/JoL/W do not scale with weapon speeds?
So theoretically, the only time I should be healing is when I throw up a bubble?
Thanks lots for the info guys, and lots of <3 for CapJack. :D
p.s. Yeah, been playing very FFXI-ish lately. I basically smack the mob around while healing myself now and then. :P
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And regarding not being able to block while casting, wouldn't this mean that SF would in fact be good since it translates into less time casting, since there's less chance of losing cast time to damage interruptions?
...
So theoretically, the only time I should be healing is when I throw up a bubble?
...
So theoretically, the only time I should be healing is when I throw up a bubble?
Kinda answered your own question there. With proper SoL and SoW strategies you shouldn't have to heal much, however in emergency situations, you can heal with a bubble.
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Thanks lots for the info guys, and lots of <3 for CapJack. :D
Whoa, gotta buy me
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p.s. Yeah, been playing very FFXI-ish lately. I basically smack the mob around while healing myself now and then. :P
The biggest difference is tanking strategies. Do NOT expect to be able to hold aggro through healing yourself. The healing mechanics between FFXI and WoW are vastly different in turns of hate/threat.
The only similarity between Paladin in FFXI and WoW is the name and the concept.
In terms of mechanics and functionality they are completely different, as I am already sure you are aware of.
My old Elvaan Paladin could throw a Cure on himself to help hold hate, in WoW paladin heals only generate 1/4 threat and your avoidance/block chance while casting is zero, so its a good way to take a big hit and a bad way to grab threat.
In terms of mechanics and functionality they are completely different, as I am already sure you are aware of.
My old Elvaan Paladin could throw a Cure on himself to help hold hate, in WoW paladin heals only generate 1/4 threat and your avoidance/block chance while casting is zero, so its a good way to take a big hit and a bad way to grab threat.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
7 posts
ChemoshPrime wrote:
Sounds great! Could I get a link to your Armory?
It's nothing to write home about, but it works for me. heh
Malgayne wrote:
When you're casting a spell--even if, thanks to spiritual focus and concentration aura, you have 0 chance to be interrupted--you cannot shield block. So that means that when you get low on health, by healing yourself you also increase your damage taken by a lot each time.
Good point - I completely forgot about this. Probably explains why I've found myself bubbling more often than I used to. <smacks forehead>
LilShieste
Hmm... one other thing, in terms of levelling speed, would Prot or Ret be quicker?
While Prot at least has instance utility, it seems to be just standing still and waiting for the mobs to die; Ret, however, has the option of dumping mana into 'nuking' a tough mob down, via S/JoCom.
And, I'd love to bring you to a White Castle. Alas, I've only ever heard of it on the internet, and in one movie. I'm in Asia, so I'd imagine geographically it'd be a lot further for me to get to one. :P
As I understand from my previous thread, Paladin tanking in WoW is via the 'Electric Fenceâ„¢' method. There was also a thread today in the main WoW Paladin forums about using heals to hold hate with Imp.RF, and the conclusion was also that it would be futile. :)
(Strangely though, I can't log in to post on that forum. There're no characters for me to select on the character selection screen, and BlizzTech hasn't replied to any of my mails on the issue. :'( )
While Prot at least has instance utility, it seems to be just standing still and waiting for the mobs to die; Ret, however, has the option of dumping mana into 'nuking' a tough mob down, via S/JoCom.
And, I'd love to bring you to a White Castle. Alas, I've only ever heard of it on the internet, and in one movie. I'm in Asia, so I'd imagine geographically it'd be a lot further for me to get to one. :P
As I understand from my previous thread, Paladin tanking in WoW is via the 'Electric Fenceâ„¢' method. There was also a thread today in the main WoW Paladin forums about using heals to hold hate with Imp.RF, and the conclusion was also that it would be futile. :)
(Strangely though, I can't log in to post on that forum. There're no characters for me to select on the character selection screen, and BlizzTech hasn't replied to any of my mails on the issue. :'( )
Ret is the 'leveling build', in that it is the fastest. You get a big slow (3.6 swing) 2h weapon and use Seal of Command. Nothing too complicated, survivable, not bad damage for leveling etc.
Prot becomes a very efficient leveling build after lvl 35, where you get Reckoning. Not quite as fast as Ret but still very good for leveling, plus you can tank instances along the way which is a very nice feature.
Holy or Prot for end game.
Prot becomes a very efficient leveling build after lvl 35, where you get Reckoning. Not quite as fast as Ret but still very good for leveling, plus you can tank instances along the way which is a very nice feature.
Holy or Prot for end game.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Hmm, guess I'll throw out the respec fee a few times and try it out then. :D
Yeah, I'd probably be Holy for guild and Prot for friends in the end. Ret not really my cup of tea. If I wanted to be swinging a two-hander and hoping for catastrophic damage, I'd have rolled a warrior. :P
Yeah, I'd probably be Holy for guild and Prot for friends in the end. Ret not really my cup of tea. If I wanted to be swinging a two-hander and hoping for catastrophic damage, I'd have rolled a warrior. :P
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Sorry, I didn't quite get what this means... you mean to say you never had SF while you were levelling as Prot?
Yes, that's right. :)
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And regarding not being able to block while casting, wouldn't this mean that SF would in fact be good since it translates into less time casting, since there's less chance of losing cast time to damage interruptions?
The reason why this doesn't work is because without Spiritual Focus, healing yourself with more than one mob beating on you becomes practically impossible. But with a lot of mobs beating on you (as prot-spec lends itself to), even Spiritual Focus isn't enough to get a heal off unless you have Concentration Aura up too.
Here's the idea behind prot spec levelling.
- Get Redoubt, Improved Righteous Fury, Reckoning, and Blessing of Sanctuary in the prot tree.
- Get the best shield spike you can afford. Thorium and Felsteel are hard to find, but Mithril is pretty easy.
- Get a one-handed weapon with a 2.0 attack speed or faster.
Then, when you're in actual combat, it goes like this:
[ul]
It all works in synergy. The retribution aura, shield spike and blessing of sanctuary damage ALL the mobs that are hitting you. Because you're getting constantly hit by a large number of mobs, Redoubt and Reckoning are up basically ALL the time, meaning you're constantly double swinging your weapon (with seal of light and judgement of light up, that means FOUR chances to heal yourself with every swing), and you constantly have +30% chance to shield block, cutting your incoming damage hugely and increasing your outgoing damage from BoS and from the shield spike--as well as Holy Shield, if you go that far up the tree. Improved Righteous Fury and Ardent Defender reduce your incoming damage enough that Seal/Judgement of Light are enough to keep you alive.
my personal favorite is the stun+heal. good for that last mob when you cut it way to close, elite mobs for quests, even world PvP.
fight,fight,fight,stun+heal,fight,fight,fight,bubble+bandage,fight,fight,fight,stun+heal . . . . repeat untill elite or alliance is dead/suicides out of frustration. its even better if you save your stun+heal combo for a caster who is almost finished with his 6 second cast . . .
point is, you should never need spiritual focus as prot or ret for PvE or "world pvp".
Spiritual focus is for pure healing specs, or combat medics in PvP environments.
fight,fight,fight,stun+heal,fight,fight,fight,bubble+bandage,fight,fight,fight,stun+heal . . . . repeat untill elite or alliance is dead/suicides out of frustration. its even better if you save your stun+heal combo for a caster who is almost finished with his 6 second cast . . .
point is, you should never need spiritual focus as prot or ret for PvE or "world pvp".
Spiritual focus is for pure healing specs, or combat medics in PvP environments.
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point is, you should never need spiritual focus as prot or ret for PvE or "world pvp".
Spiritual focus is for pure healing specs, or combat medics in PvP environments.
Spiritual focus is for pure healing specs, or combat medics in PvP environments.
Heh, at about this time last year you were considered a noob at any spec for not grabbing Spiritual Focus, mostly cause you had to spec 11 points in Holy to get Consecrate so you might as well get SF and reliability on it was huge at the time. I'm still in that old school thought so it's hard for me to grasp "SF should never be needed as prot or ret" though I accept it as a viable spec.
I think most retadins should expect to offheal or at least be willing to offheal, so 10 or 13 quick points in Holy is not too bad of an idea. Before I went into a hardcore tanking build I was a 21holy/40prot build which I entitled the "Living forever" build. This allowed me to effectively offheal myself in the event that a healer died or the healer just wasn't good enough to keep me alive (which I did a lot pre-tbc since I could, and I had to do a good amount even at level 70 as the healers were gearing up in normal instances.)
However, all of that is not really applicable here, since you are a lower level you need the talent points to all be in prot so that you can get Holy Shield and Ardent Defender. I wouldn't consider going into holy until at least outlands as a prot aoe grinding spec, though ret might be a good idea for faster judges and higher parry chance.
14 posts
I hate you all...now I am really craving to play FFXI again and go on a epic "Harold & Kumar" journey to a White Castle
a Prot spec utilized to its full potential, can rely soly on SoL/JoL, perma reckoning, and ardent defender.
ive figured this out just recently at black temple grinding for rep. lvl 70 duel wielding BE mobs.
pulling 4 at first, then 6, then 12, then i pulled the entire camp. all the while playing around with verious prot stratigies.
with reckoning perma up, and SoL/JoL up, i basicly had 4 chances to proc every swing. and with ardent defender, thats more then enough. if i had trinket with the Block = heal. i would never even have bubble bandage.
However, when such extremes are not available. i use the stratigies i normally use, and others have posted too.
even though this topic seems to be slowing down, i couldnt find a place to share my accomplishment, both in figuring out how to get the most out of AOE grinding, and living through the entire camp of those lvl 70 BEs outside Black temple (almost 20 i think, i tried counting how many i killed but they stacked all silly) in nothing but my Prot DPS gear from quests.
Edited, Sep 25th 2007 10:57am by RuenBahamut
ive figured this out just recently at black temple grinding for rep. lvl 70 duel wielding BE mobs.
pulling 4 at first, then 6, then 12, then i pulled the entire camp. all the while playing around with verious prot stratigies.
with reckoning perma up, and SoL/JoL up, i basicly had 4 chances to proc every swing. and with ardent defender, thats more then enough. if i had trinket with the Block = heal. i would never even have bubble bandage.
However, when such extremes are not available. i use the stratigies i normally use, and others have posted too.
even though this topic seems to be slowing down, i couldnt find a place to share my accomplishment, both in figuring out how to get the most out of AOE grinding, and living through the entire camp of those lvl 70 BEs outside Black temple (almost 20 i think, i tried counting how many i killed but they stacked all silly) in nothing but my Prot DPS gear from quests.
Edited, Sep 25th 2007 10:57am by RuenBahamut
Protection AoE grinding is extremely effective, just make sure you have JoW on the mob and SoL on yourself, and you should never die. Most of the real damage will end up coming from Holy Shield, with Ardent Defender keeping you alive forever when things get dicy. Seriously, once you hit 35% health the actual incoming damage (remember BoSanc is applied *after* AD...) becomes a trickle, easily kept going with regular Seal switches.
Just make sure you dont pull any casters; they can really ***** up your routine.
~sins
Just make sure you dont pull any casters; they can really ***** up your routine.
~sins
10 posts
I spec'd holy up till around 30. Then I spec'd prot. I twinked @ 49 for about a month, got tired of killing horde in the BG day in and day out.
I'm now 53, walk into WPL, and go into the graveyard just off of the Flightpath, and I tested myself.
10 50-52 mobs at a time, roughly 1800-2500 xp gained in about a minute.
Its really simple, all you have to do is find the right mix of mobs to grind, and just beat the living tar out of them, well, let them beat the living tar out of themselves, whatever the case may be.
The key is as everyone else has said, more hits = more procs, more procs = more dmg or dmg mitigation in relation to redoubt.
Here's my armory and obviously I realize my gear is far and above more than a lot of guys will have at my lvl, but seriously, you can get close and still be taking on countless #'s of mobs.
I will generally judge wisdom, and seal it too, more so than life, I find myself burning mana constantly, as I'm a ***** for consecrate, I wanna burn em down as fast as I can, and that 36-40 dps on every single mob, is a huge buffer when it comes to taking massive groups down.
So I burn mana way before I burn HP. If I didn't use consecrate, I could probably go all day and night without a break in the action and never once have to bandage / bubble.
I'm now 53, walk into WPL, and go into the graveyard just off of the Flightpath, and I tested myself.
10 50-52 mobs at a time, roughly 1800-2500 xp gained in about a minute.
Its really simple, all you have to do is find the right mix of mobs to grind, and just beat the living tar out of them, well, let them beat the living tar out of themselves, whatever the case may be.
The key is as everyone else has said, more hits = more procs, more procs = more dmg or dmg mitigation in relation to redoubt.
Here's my armory and obviously I realize my gear is far and above more than a lot of guys will have at my lvl, but seriously, you can get close and still be taking on countless #'s of mobs.
I will generally judge wisdom, and seal it too, more so than life, I find myself burning mana constantly, as I'm a ***** for consecrate, I wanna burn em down as fast as I can, and that 36-40 dps on every single mob, is a huge buffer when it comes to taking massive groups down.
So I burn mana way before I burn HP. If I didn't use consecrate, I could probably go all day and night without a break in the action and never once have to bandage / bubble.
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