Flew into Org yesterday in the midst of a heated discussion concerning hemo. Being as I have hemo, I watched the convo for a bit before putting my 2 cents in.
The argument was between 2 rogues concerning the subtlety tree and its usefulness. Rogue 1 argued that it was a tolerable tree if played right, while rogue 2 argued that hemo didn't do as much damage as sinister strike, so combat was better. They were discussing mace specs in relation to all this.
Here's were I inserted myself into the conversation.
Who the hell actually does believe hemo can take the place of sinister strike? I like hemo, but never do I spam it for raw damage. Am I to take it that people actually try to use hemo in the same fashion as sinister strike?
The way I utilize hemo is to gain +10 damage on the next 30 strikes. Nothing more, nothing less.
On my server, people pay through the nose for +7 weapon damage. I get +10 and a combo point for free without using up a weapon enchant slot.
Am I missing something or am I just using the talent the way it should be used?
BTW, I didn't take the sub tree for hemo, I took it for prep and some of the other PvP goodies, took hemo because it was there and it looked useful in the long run.
Opinions and insight will be appreciated. If you feel the need to call me a noob for having sub talents, suit yourself, it works for me.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:48am by Jamboo
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- Misinformed rogues and the misuse of Hemo
Misinformed rogues and the misuse of HemoFollow
Well, I am far from being experienced in Hemo, as I only used it for a very short while. But after reading numerous posts here about it, I thought I'd give it a whirl.
As I understood it, and consequently applied it, Hemo was used as a replacement for ss. Yes, it does a lot less damage, but the pro to using it is for cp generation and thus, control. SS uses 40 energy and Hemo 35.
So, from this point, what happens depends on how far into Sub the build is. If you have premed and dirty deeds, you only need one hemo for a 5pt ks. Without premed, the cp generation will still be faster than using hemo due to the energy cost.
So now I'm curious. If you went far enough into Sub for Hemo, only to use it once and then ss? the rest of way for the cp you want, I wonder what the difference is in the damage generated by using ss (with the +10) as compared to a 19/42 or 17/44 combat build.
I saw nooble schooling someone awhile back about using Hemo in a raid situation and the opposition, through much debate, finally crumbled. Also, in a recent post by nooble, he crunched some numbers and came to the conclusion that you need like 5k+ ap for hemo to = ss damage from a deep combat build using a 2.7 weapon.
Of course, this isn't an issue for you, because you use hemo only for the buff. So what needs to be clarified is: does the damage difference warrant the use of ss or not? What exactly is your build btw, and what is your ap?
In short, I would have to say, that going deep enough into sub for hemo is going to gimp you ss damage a bit and you might as well use it(hemo) to generate your cp. I'm sure one of the number crunchers here will come up with some proof. Sorry, I'm at work and haven't time for that. Hopefully, what I've summed up from memory will at least be food for thought.
As I understood it, and consequently applied it, Hemo was used as a replacement for ss. Yes, it does a lot less damage, but the pro to using it is for cp generation and thus, control. SS uses 40 energy and Hemo 35.
So, from this point, what happens depends on how far into Sub the build is. If you have premed and dirty deeds, you only need one hemo for a 5pt ks. Without premed, the cp generation will still be faster than using hemo due to the energy cost.
So now I'm curious. If you went far enough into Sub for Hemo, only to use it once and then ss? the rest of way for the cp you want, I wonder what the difference is in the damage generated by using ss (with the +10) as compared to a 19/42 or 17/44 combat build.
I saw nooble schooling someone awhile back about using Hemo in a raid situation and the opposition, through much debate, finally crumbled. Also, in a recent post by nooble, he crunched some numbers and came to the conclusion that you need like 5k+ ap for hemo to = ss damage from a deep combat build using a 2.7 weapon.
Of course, this isn't an issue for you, because you use hemo only for the buff. So what needs to be clarified is: does the damage difference warrant the use of ss or not? What exactly is your build btw, and what is your ap?
In short, I would have to say, that going deep enough into sub for hemo is going to gimp you ss damage a bit and you might as well use it(hemo) to generate your cp. I'm sure one of the number crunchers here will come up with some proof. Sorry, I'm at work and haven't time for that. Hopefully, what I've summed up from memory will at least be food for thought.
If you are using it as the "hemo build" then yes it is spammed like sinister strike. Why? Hemo spec doesn't mean you bought the ability. It is a stun locking build that bases itself off of energy efficiency. 35 energy hemo + low cost CS. The big problem with it is now the whole elevated hp levels + resilience. You will run out of stun before they run out of health and your toast. Well, using every CD you can have a shot, but the build just doesn't have the dps of any other spec. I was hemo until 70. I loved the utility it brought to the table as well as my control over the fight. Then I ran a few 70 instances and was beat on dps by a shaman with equal gear. Needless to say, I am now combat swords.
Glossu wrote:
Well, I am far from being experienced in Hemo, as I only used it for a very short while. But after reading numerous posts here about it, I thought I'd give it a whirl.
As I understood it, and consequently applied it, Hemo was used as a replacement for ss. Yes, it does a lot less damage, but the pro to using it is for cp generation and thus, control. SS uses 40 energy and Hemo 35.
So, from this point, what happens depends on how far into Sub the build is. If you have premed and dirty deeds, you only need one hemo for a 5pt ks. Without premed, the cp generation will still be faster than using hemo due to the energy cost.
So now I'm curious. If you went far enough into Sub for Hemo, only to use it once and then ss? the rest of way for the cp you want, I wonder what the difference is in the damage generated by using ss (with the +10) as compared to a 19/42 or 17/44 combat build.
I saw nooble schooling someone awhile back about using Hemo in a raid situation and the opposition, through much debate, finally crumbled. Also, in a recent post by nooble, he crunched some numbers and came to the conclusion that you need like 5k+ ap for hemo to = ss damage from a deep combat build using a 2.7 weapon.
Of course, this isn't an issue for you, because you use hemo only for the buff. So what needs to be clarified is: does the damage difference warrant the use of ss or not? What exactly is your build btw, and what is your ap?
In short, I would have to say, that going deep enough into sub for hemo is going to gimp you ss damage a bit and you might as well use it(hemo) to generate your cp. I'm sure one of the number crunchers here will come up with some proof. Sorry, I'm at work and haven't time for that. Hopefully, what I've summed up from memory will at least be food for thought.
As I understood it, and consequently applied it, Hemo was used as a replacement for ss. Yes, it does a lot less damage, but the pro to using it is for cp generation and thus, control. SS uses 40 energy and Hemo 35.
So, from this point, what happens depends on how far into Sub the build is. If you have premed and dirty deeds, you only need one hemo for a 5pt ks. Without premed, the cp generation will still be faster than using hemo due to the energy cost.
So now I'm curious. If you went far enough into Sub for Hemo, only to use it once and then ss? the rest of way for the cp you want, I wonder what the difference is in the damage generated by using ss (with the +10) as compared to a 19/42 or 17/44 combat build.
I saw nooble schooling someone awhile back about using Hemo in a raid situation and the opposition, through much debate, finally crumbled. Also, in a recent post by nooble, he crunched some numbers and came to the conclusion that you need like 5k+ ap for hemo to = ss damage from a deep combat build using a 2.7 weapon.
Of course, this isn't an issue for you, because you use hemo only for the buff. So what needs to be clarified is: does the damage difference warrant the use of ss or not? What exactly is your build btw, and what is your ap?
In short, I would have to say, that going deep enough into sub for hemo is going to gimp you ss damage a bit and you might as well use it(hemo) to generate your cp. I'm sure one of the number crunchers here will come up with some proof. Sorry, I'm at work and haven't time for that. Hopefully, what I've summed up from memory will at least be food for thought.
Actually, I use shiv mostly for cheap combo points. Hemo is good for combo points and I have used it from time to time in that regard, just can't see the wisdom of spamming it like sinister strike.
So what exactly is your attack sequence? Leading up to, during and after ks?
Open with CS, hemo, throw up a shiv or 2 as needed then KS, SS till 2 pts then SnD and SS until dead.
Of course this varies according to the situation. To be honest, I've never really payed much attention to my attack sequence but this is the general idea of it. For longer fights, I like ghostly strike to help with CP generation and of course hemo has to be reapplied from time to time.
My point is that seeing as I have a good portion of the combat tree as well as the sub tree, it allows me to use sinister strike and not have to spam hemo, thus losing damage.
As I said before, I mostly use shiv for CP generation and sinister strike for damage. Hemo I use for some CP generation but mostly for +10 damage.
Of course this varies according to the situation. To be honest, I've never really payed much attention to my attack sequence but this is the general idea of it. For longer fights, I like ghostly strike to help with CP generation and of course hemo has to be reapplied from time to time.
My point is that seeing as I have a good portion of the combat tree as well as the sub tree, it allows me to use sinister strike and not have to spam hemo, thus losing damage.
As I said before, I mostly use shiv for CP generation and sinister strike for damage. Hemo I use for some CP generation but mostly for +10 damage.
As to clarify a bit, I recently respecced to my current build from combat daggers in order to get ready for arena action.
The main thing that I am missing from combat IMO is combat potency. I may go back to a more traditional spec, just wanted to try this out with prep and the 10% attack power bonus as well as some of the other PvP goodies.
The lack of combat potency does indeed hurt a little on the energy regen, but I have found that the stun abilities of the build help negate this somewhat. It seems to give me a little more breathing room to let the white damage roll up while regenerating some energy.
I've tried to stack some haste in order to do a little more white damage and get some more stun procs and once I actually get an offhand mace, things will go more smoothly. (if I have to run Slabs one more damned time trying for the Blackout truncheon, I'm gonna go completely Emo and cut myself so I can feel alive)
Like I said, I'm a work in progress.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 9:36am by Jamboo
The main thing that I am missing from combat IMO is combat potency. I may go back to a more traditional spec, just wanted to try this out with prep and the 10% attack power bonus as well as some of the other PvP goodies.
The lack of combat potency does indeed hurt a little on the energy regen, but I have found that the stun abilities of the build help negate this somewhat. It seems to give me a little more breathing room to let the white damage roll up while regenerating some energy.
I've tried to stack some haste in order to do a little more white damage and get some more stun procs and once I actually get an offhand mace, things will go more smoothly. (if I have to run Slabs one more damned time trying for the Blackout truncheon, I'm gonna go completely Emo and cut myself so I can feel alive)
Like I said, I'm a work in progress.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 9:36am by Jamboo
12 posts
i feel sorry for you =(
if you spec hemo you use hemo as main attack, not ss and you dont use shiv. tell we why do you use shiv(ofc i use shiv sometimes but cripp mostly procs on them before cs is over)? with 1.5 offhand shiv = 35 energy hemo =35 energy, and hemo does a lot more dmg then shiv.
if you spec hemo you use hemo as main attack, not ss and you dont use shiv. tell we why do you use shiv(ofc i use shiv sometimes but cripp mostly procs on them before cs is over)? with 1.5 offhand shiv = 35 energy hemo =35 energy, and hemo does a lot more dmg then shiv.
12 posts
and ss dosent hit much harder then hemo. i crit ca 1500 on cloth(without resi) as deep combat with ss. and around 1300 with hemo...
at orig post:
old school hemo WAS a ss replacement move
anyone saying otherwise didnt play hemo before the xpac, or was using a ****** MH for it..... even dal rend was a good hemo set back then..... sure hemo didnt hit for more then ss, but it had 2 points back then
1: 35 energy, more control of energy = more stunlock potential (just to boil it down) and 35 energy works insanely well with stunlocking things, that 5 energy makes a big difference
2: DPE (damage per energy)... back in the day, it was common for hemo to be the same DPE as ss, if not better (700 dmg for hemo vs 800 for a ss = 20 DPE on both moves) the problem was it needed a scale of ap to achieve this... and a 2.8 speed weapon to achieve this
since xpac, hemo cant keep up in dps or dpe terms, but it still has a foothold for the control, but full combat can just use a shiv with latros or a glad offhand for the same effect
the debuff it gives is minimal at best, generally resulting in 300 dmg over about 18 seconds, but the hit that applied it was weaker then a full combat ss by more then that if ya crit
hemo is for control, not for a crappy temp weapon enchant, so in essence you are probably using it wrong (just to apply debuff is wrong, using it sparingly when your doin a stunlock chain, then going to ss not as wrong.... depends on how you do it)
and if i could see your armory, i could tell a lil easier if your hemo is correct or not ;)
old school hemo WAS a ss replacement move
anyone saying otherwise didnt play hemo before the xpac, or was using a ****** MH for it..... even dal rend was a good hemo set back then..... sure hemo didnt hit for more then ss, but it had 2 points back then
1: 35 energy, more control of energy = more stunlock potential (just to boil it down) and 35 energy works insanely well with stunlocking things, that 5 energy makes a big difference
2: DPE (damage per energy)... back in the day, it was common for hemo to be the same DPE as ss, if not better (700 dmg for hemo vs 800 for a ss = 20 DPE on both moves) the problem was it needed a scale of ap to achieve this... and a 2.8 speed weapon to achieve this
since xpac, hemo cant keep up in dps or dpe terms, but it still has a foothold for the control, but full combat can just use a shiv with latros or a glad offhand for the same effect
the debuff it gives is minimal at best, generally resulting in 300 dmg over about 18 seconds, but the hit that applied it was weaker then a full combat ss by more then that if ya crit
hemo is for control, not for a crappy temp weapon enchant, so in essence you are probably using it wrong (just to apply debuff is wrong, using it sparingly when your doin a stunlock chain, then going to ss not as wrong.... depends on how you do it)
and if i could see your armory, i could tell a lil easier if your hemo is correct or not ;)
Quote:
The way I utilize sinister strike is to gain +10 damage on the next 30 strikes. Nothing more, nothing less.
You mean hemo right? :P
greenroom wrote:
Quote:
The way I utilize sinister strike is to gain +10 damage on the next 30 strikes. Nothing more, nothing less.
You mean hemo right? :P
Yep, that's what I meant, thx for catching it.
holmstrom wrote:
i feel sorry for you =(
if you spec hemo you use hemo as main attack, not ss and you dont use shiv. tell we why do you use shiv(ofc i use shiv sometimes but cripp mostly procs on them before cs is over)? with 1.5 offhand shiv = 35 energy hemo =35 energy, and hemo does a lot more dmg then shiv.
if you spec hemo you use hemo as main attack, not ss and you dont use shiv. tell we why do you use shiv(ofc i use shiv sometimes but cripp mostly procs on them before cs is over)? with 1.5 offhand shiv = 35 energy hemo =35 energy, and hemo does a lot more dmg then shiv.
Shiv doesn't reset my mainhand attack.
mongoosexcore wrote:
and if i could see your armory, i could tell a lil easier if your hemo is correct or not ;)
Brunhild on greymane
You're losing damage from Hemo, and lots of it. Here's the math to prove it.
Hemo Damage == Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * Weapon Speed
SS Damage == (Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 (the last two modifiers are the combat talents)
(149 + 224) * .5 == 187
Hemo Damage == 187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.6 == 421
SS Damage == (187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 == 584
To calculate the damage from the debuff, you're getting a swing about once per second, so it will take a full 30 seconds to get the benefit of the debuff, but it only lasts 15. Even if we tack on the extra 150 damage to Hemo, it's less than SS, and that extra damage is not effected by Lethality. Because of this, when crit is factored in, the damage gap gets even larger.
Also, I looked at your spec. 5/5 Lightning Reflexes but 1/2 Improved Sprint and 0/3 Improved Gouge? I'll assume you mainly PvP since you have no PvE gear to speak of, have a PvP spec (bad as it may be) and are wearing lots of the blue PvP gear. The talents I spoke of are pretty much required to PvP effectively. Also, while a double AR might be nice, it pales in comparison to the high end Combat talents and low in Assassination for PvP.
Undodgeable Finishers, 10% Stun/Fear resist, 25 energy back from finishers (will actually put out more energy than AR + Prep), CPs back after finishers, increased crit chance/crit damage, all these are amazingly useful in all situations. DPS is the name of the game in PvP now. You need the Resilience and cooldowns to stay alive, but if you can't put out enough damage to kill somebody, it's pointless.
Hemo Damage == Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * Weapon Speed
SS Damage == (Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 (the last two modifiers are the combat talents)
(149 + 224) * .5 == 187
Hemo Damage == 187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.6 == 421
SS Damage == (187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 == 584
To calculate the damage from the debuff, you're getting a swing about once per second, so it will take a full 30 seconds to get the benefit of the debuff, but it only lasts 15. Even if we tack on the extra 150 damage to Hemo, it's less than SS, and that extra damage is not effected by Lethality. Because of this, when crit is factored in, the damage gap gets even larger.
Also, I looked at your spec. 5/5 Lightning Reflexes but 1/2 Improved Sprint and 0/3 Improved Gouge? I'll assume you mainly PvP since you have no PvE gear to speak of, have a PvP spec (bad as it may be) and are wearing lots of the blue PvP gear. The talents I spoke of are pretty much required to PvP effectively. Also, while a double AR might be nice, it pales in comparison to the high end Combat talents and low in Assassination for PvP.
Undodgeable Finishers, 10% Stun/Fear resist, 25 energy back from finishers (will actually put out more energy than AR + Prep), CPs back after finishers, increased crit chance/crit damage, all these are amazingly useful in all situations. DPS is the name of the game in PvP now. You need the Resilience and cooldowns to stay alive, but if you can't put out enough damage to kill somebody, it's pointless.
Nooblestick wrote:
You're losing damage from Hemo, and lots of it. Here's the math to prove it.
Hemo Damage == Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * Weapon Speed
SS Damage == (Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 (the last two modifiers are the combat talents)
(149 + 224) * .5 == 187
Hemo Damage == 187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.6 == 421
SS Damage == (187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 == 584
To calculate the damage from the debuff, you're getting a swing about once per second, so it will take a full 30 seconds to get the benefit of the debuff, but it only lasts 15. Even if we tack on the extra 150 damage to Hemo, it's less than SS, and that extra damage is not effected by Lethality. Because of this, when crit is factored in, the damage gap gets even larger.
Also, I looked at your spec. 5/5 Lightning Reflexes but 1/2 Improved Sprint and 0/3 Improved Gouge? I'll assume you mainly PvP since you have no PvE gear to speak of, have a PvP spec (bad as it may be) and are wearing lots of the blue PvP gear. The talents I spoke of are pretty much required to PvP effectively. Also, while a double AR might be nice, it pales in comparison to the high end Combat talents and low in Assassination for PvP.
Undodgeable Finishers, 10% Stun/Fear resist, 25 energy back from finishers (will actually put out more energy than AR + Prep), CPs back after finishers, increased crit chance/crit damage, all these are amazingly useful in all situations. DPS is the name of the game in PvP now. You need the Resilience and cooldowns to stay alive, but if you can't put out enough damage to kill somebody, it's pointless.
Hemo Damage == Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * Weapon Speed
SS Damage == (Weapon Damage + AP / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 (the last two modifiers are the combat talents)
(149 + 224) * .5 == 187
Hemo Damage == 187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.6 == 421
SS Damage == (187 + 1259 / 14 * 2.4 + 98) * 1.10 * 1.06 == 584
To calculate the damage from the debuff, you're getting a swing about once per second, so it will take a full 30 seconds to get the benefit of the debuff, but it only lasts 15. Even if we tack on the extra 150 damage to Hemo, it's less than SS, and that extra damage is not effected by Lethality. Because of this, when crit is factored in, the damage gap gets even larger.
Also, I looked at your spec. 5/5 Lightning Reflexes but 1/2 Improved Sprint and 0/3 Improved Gouge? I'll assume you mainly PvP since you have no PvE gear to speak of, have a PvP spec (bad as it may be) and are wearing lots of the blue PvP gear. The talents I spoke of are pretty much required to PvP effectively. Also, while a double AR might be nice, it pales in comparison to the high end Combat talents and low in Assassination for PvP.
Undodgeable Finishers, 10% Stun/Fear resist, 25 energy back from finishers (will actually put out more energy than AR + Prep), CPs back after finishers, increased crit chance/crit damage, all these are amazingly useful in all situations. DPS is the name of the game in PvP now. You need the Resilience and cooldowns to stay alive, but if you can't put out enough damage to kill somebody, it's pointless.
Like I said, just trying out a few things before settling on anything concrete.
As for the damage gap between ss and hemo, I agree wholeheartedly. As I said, I only use hemo for the +10 damage and I took it because it was there.
Granted, my spec is a little unorthodox, but I sat down before I respecced and plotted out what I wanted and how to do it and this looked like something that could work out. As for my playstyle, you are correct in assuming that its largely PvP.
I am gearing up for arena 2v2 and with only 2 other 70s in my guild, raiding is a long way off. I have tried to strike a balance that would allow me to do 5-mans for rep and so forth as well as PvP without having to collect 2 completely different sets of gear. I realize that this is not the best approach to things but I want to experience as many facets of the game as possible with the limited playtime I have. (Anyone who is married will understand why my playtime is limited)
In summary, this spec and gear set (with exception of a few things) is the best I have been able to put together so far and gives me a fair balance of all the things I wanted in my rogue.
In a perfect world, I would have a wicked badass combat-mutilate rogue with shadowstep, but until that day....
Thx for the advice guys.
edit:
Didn't really address your questions lol.
5/5 lightning reflexes + evasion + ghostly strike + 3/3 setup = free combo points. At least that was the thought behind the action.
As for the others, no improved gouge because I was gambling on double cooldowns from prep to get back into stealth and 1/2 imp sprint was again a gamble to save a talent point. It may come back to bite me in the ***, but it is 50-50 so we'll see.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 2:27pm by Jamboo
Jamboo the Ludicrous wrote:
In summary, this spec and gear set (with exception of a few things) is the best I have been able to put together so far and gives me a fair balance of all the things I wanted in my rogue.
Actually, pure Combat is a very good PvP spec these days. Arena is about overpowering one target to make it 2v1, 3v2 or 5v4. Whoever loses a team member first, generally loses the match. Combat is very good at putting out lots of on demand DPS, so it has become the dominant spec. It's also the best PvE spec, so 99% of Rogues you see today are going to be Combat for one reason or another. Sucks that we get pigeonholed into a single spec if we want to perform, but hey, that's the way balance goes sometimes.
Nooblestick wrote:
Jamboo the Ludicrous wrote:
In summary, this spec and gear set (with exception of a few things) is the best I have been able to put together so far and gives me a fair balance of all the things I wanted in my rogue.
Actually, pure Combat is a very good PvP spec these days. Arena is about overpowering one target to make it 2v1, 3v2 or 5v4. Whoever loses a team member first, generally loses the match. Combat is very good at putting out lots of on demand DPS, so it has become the dominant spec. It's also the best PvE spec, so 99% of Rogues you see today are going to be Combat for one reason or another. Sucks that we get pigeonholed into a single spec if we want to perform, but hey, that's the way balance goes sometimes.
True that. All things otherwise being equal, I have noticed a considerable increase in my averag DPS.
Prio to this spec, I was 15/41/5 combat daggers with Whispering blade of slaying and Ced's Carver and during the average AV, I would end up around 4th/6th or somewhere thereabouts. In the 5 or 6 AVs since the changes, I have not been lower than 3. So far so good. Gonna do SLABS tonight and hope like hell the Blackout Truncheon drops so I'll see how this setup works out in a 5-man.
@ jamboo
the problem with all the dodge stuff your build is based on, its basically only helpful against 2-3 classes mainly, with some side spec stuff
ar/prep can be done decent, but going full on dodge isnt exactly the way to do
heres one of my old ar/prep builds
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gZG0EzbVzV0ooZfrfoMhR
some of it is flavor, like i like the chance of chain DT, and garrote is used enough to dump some mod for 12% more dmg (2/5 is 1 level of stealth... if you need more, sounds like you got some more pressing issues)
but i would advise a 19-42 combat, its strong as hell in arenas and its great pve
jack of all trades.... if jack was the best at everything lol
the problem with all the dodge stuff your build is based on, its basically only helpful against 2-3 classes mainly, with some side spec stuff
ar/prep can be done decent, but going full on dodge isnt exactly the way to do
heres one of my old ar/prep builds
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gZG0EzbVzV0ooZfrfoMhR
some of it is flavor, like i like the chance of chain DT, and garrote is used enough to dump some mod for 12% more dmg (2/5 is 1 level of stealth... if you need more, sounds like you got some more pressing issues)
but i would advise a 19-42 combat, its strong as hell in arenas and its great pve
jack of all trades.... if jack was the best at everything lol
mongoosexcore wrote:
@ jamboo
the problem with all the dodge stuff your build is based on, its basically only helpful against 2-3 classes mainly, with some side spec stuff
ar/prep can be done decent, but going full on dodge isnt exactly the way to do
heres one of my old ar/prep builds
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gZG0EzbVzV0ooZfrfoMhR
some of it is flavor, like i like the chance of chain DT, and garrote is used enough to dump some mod for 12% more dmg (2/5 is 1 level of stealth... if you need more, sounds like you got some more pressing issues)
but i would advise a 19-42 combat, its strong as hell in arenas and its great pve
jack of all trades.... if jack was the best at everything lol
the problem with all the dodge stuff your build is based on, its basically only helpful against 2-3 classes mainly, with some side spec stuff
ar/prep can be done decent, but going full on dodge isnt exactly the way to do
heres one of my old ar/prep builds
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gZG0EzbVzV0ooZfrfoMhR
some of it is flavor, like i like the chance of chain DT, and garrote is used enough to dump some mod for 12% more dmg (2/5 is 1 level of stealth... if you need more, sounds like you got some more pressing issues)
but i would advise a 19-42 combat, its strong as hell in arenas and its great pve
jack of all trades.... if jack was the best at everything lol
Looks like something I'll have to try out. The only thing I don't care for is the lack of deadliness. Losing 100+ attack power is not on my list of things to do.
We should have more talent points to spend...
I know everyone says sub is dead. But I'm not convinced Hemo swords/maces is dead for PVP.
Hemo is indeed a SS replacement.....but only for PVP.
I do fine using Hemo as a main attack, and as a replacement for SS.....but I PVP 95% of my time on-line. Hemo isn't a "go in there and burn em down" build. It's a "finese em down" build. Stunlocking takes longer, and therein lies it's greatest weakness. That said, Hemo is all about maximizing your options and building points quickly. At 35 energy and coupled with Dirty Deeds I can get 2 hemo's in after a cheapshot, which gives me a 5 point KS 75% of the time, (without a gap in the lockdown between CS and KS). It's about having more options because you never seem to be out of energy. True, Hemo will never be better than SS in instances or in other forms of combat where Stunlocking is not the primary objective. Granted, I do mostly battlegrounds with a smattering of 2V2 mixed in. The difference I see in Hemo DPS as compared to SS over a SHORT FIGHT is relatively small. The white damage missing from Duel wield is more the issue with Hemo, which is why I switched to a Hemo/AR (Combat Maces) build recently....which btw I really like. Hemo builds points as quickly as Muti, and it's not position specific. It's a high control, high survivability build that's very much suited to 1 VS 1 combat. It's biggest strength is (like Muti), it doesn't rely on the use of cooldowns.....which is exactly what you need in battlegrounds. A 5 min cooldown for AR in general battlegrounds is not something you can't rely on very often imho.
If I were doing more 3v3 or 5v5 I would definitely try speccing 41 in combat with maces. I've tried the other builds, and for the short world PVP fights and Battlegrounds (not Arena) Hemo still shines imho (even more so now spec'd Hemo/AR/Maces).
For the type of action my rogue sees, Hemo does just fine. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's not a bad PVP build.
Edit: My spelling grammer sucks.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:54am by Slyyth
Hemo is indeed a SS replacement.....but only for PVP.
I do fine using Hemo as a main attack, and as a replacement for SS.....but I PVP 95% of my time on-line. Hemo isn't a "go in there and burn em down" build. It's a "finese em down" build. Stunlocking takes longer, and therein lies it's greatest weakness. That said, Hemo is all about maximizing your options and building points quickly. At 35 energy and coupled with Dirty Deeds I can get 2 hemo's in after a cheapshot, which gives me a 5 point KS 75% of the time, (without a gap in the lockdown between CS and KS). It's about having more options because you never seem to be out of energy. True, Hemo will never be better than SS in instances or in other forms of combat where Stunlocking is not the primary objective. Granted, I do mostly battlegrounds with a smattering of 2V2 mixed in. The difference I see in Hemo DPS as compared to SS over a SHORT FIGHT is relatively small. The white damage missing from Duel wield is more the issue with Hemo, which is why I switched to a Hemo/AR (Combat Maces) build recently....which btw I really like. Hemo builds points as quickly as Muti, and it's not position specific. It's a high control, high survivability build that's very much suited to 1 VS 1 combat. It's biggest strength is (like Muti), it doesn't rely on the use of cooldowns.....which is exactly what you need in battlegrounds. A 5 min cooldown for AR in general battlegrounds is not something you can't rely on very often imho.
If I were doing more 3v3 or 5v5 I would definitely try speccing 41 in combat with maces. I've tried the other builds, and for the short world PVP fights and Battlegrounds (not Arena) Hemo still shines imho (even more so now spec'd Hemo/AR/Maces).
For the type of action my rogue sees, Hemo does just fine. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's not a bad PVP build.
Edit: My spelling grammer sucks.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:54am by Slyyth
Hey Slyyth, what's your spec? Or how about an armory link. My spec is 0/31/30 and I'd like to see how you do hemo/combat maces to compare.
Slyyth wrote:
I know everyone says sub is dead. But I'm not convinced Hemo swords/maces is dead for PVP.
Hemo is indeed a SS replacement.....but only for PVP.
I do fine using Hemo as a main attack, and as a replacement for SS.....but I PVP 95% of my time on-line. Hemo isn't a "go in there and burn em down" build. It's a "finese em down" build. Stunlocking takes longer, and therein lies it's greatest weakness. That said, Hemo is all about maximizing your options and building points quickly. At 35 energy and coupled with Dirty Deeds I can get 2 hemo's in after a cheapshot, which gives me a 5 point KS 75% of the time, (without a gap in the lockdown between CS and KS). It's about having more options because you never seem to be out of energy. True, Hemo will never be better than SS in instances or in other forms of combat where Stunlocking is not the primary objective. Granted, I do mostly battlegrounds with a smattering of 2V2 mixed in. The difference I see in Hemo DPS as compared to SS over a SHORT FIGHT is relatively small. The white damage missing from Duel wield is more the issue with Hemo, which is why I switched to a Hemo/AR (Combat Maces) build recently....which btw I really like. Hemo builds points as quickly as Muti, and it's not position specific. It's a high control, high survivability build that's very much suited to 1 VS 1 combat. It's biggest strength is (like Muti), it doesn't rely on the use of cooldowns.....which is exactly what you need in battlegrounds. A 5 min cooldown for AR in general battlegrounds is not something you can't rely on very often imho.
If I were doing more 3v3 or 5v5 I would definitely try speccing 41 in combat with maces. I've tried the other builds, and for the short world PVP fights and Battlegrounds (not Arena) Hemo still shines imho (even more so now spec'd Hemo/AR/Maces).
For the type of action my rogue sees, Hemo does just fine. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's not a bad PVP build.
Edit: My spelling grammer sucks.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:54am by Slyyth
Hemo is indeed a SS replacement.....but only for PVP.
I do fine using Hemo as a main attack, and as a replacement for SS.....but I PVP 95% of my time on-line. Hemo isn't a "go in there and burn em down" build. It's a "finese em down" build. Stunlocking takes longer, and therein lies it's greatest weakness. That said, Hemo is all about maximizing your options and building points quickly. At 35 energy and coupled with Dirty Deeds I can get 2 hemo's in after a cheapshot, which gives me a 5 point KS 75% of the time, (without a gap in the lockdown between CS and KS). It's about having more options because you never seem to be out of energy. True, Hemo will never be better than SS in instances or in other forms of combat where Stunlocking is not the primary objective. Granted, I do mostly battlegrounds with a smattering of 2V2 mixed in. The difference I see in Hemo DPS as compared to SS over a SHORT FIGHT is relatively small. The white damage missing from Duel wield is more the issue with Hemo, which is why I switched to a Hemo/AR (Combat Maces) build recently....which btw I really like. Hemo builds points as quickly as Muti, and it's not position specific. It's a high control, high survivability build that's very much suited to 1 VS 1 combat. It's biggest strength is (like Muti), it doesn't rely on the use of cooldowns.....which is exactly what you need in battlegrounds. A 5 min cooldown for AR in general battlegrounds is not something you can't rely on very often imho.
If I were doing more 3v3 or 5v5 I would definitely try speccing 41 in combat with maces. I've tried the other builds, and for the short world PVP fights and Battlegrounds (not Arena) Hemo still shines imho (even more so now spec'd Hemo/AR/Maces).
For the type of action my rogue sees, Hemo does just fine. I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it's not a bad PVP build.
Edit: My spelling grammer sucks.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:54am by Slyyth
Most PvP these days is Arena. In BGs, you can spec whatever you want to and it won't make a difference. For Arenas, though, stunlocking is quite dead. Locking somebody down is nice and all, but if they're getting healed, you're not going to accomplish anything. Locking the healer is great until they bubble/trinket and full heal, or get somebody on their team on you. When you're killing their healer slow and they're killing you quick, you're going to lose every time.
The only thing you said that I'd really consider wrong, though, is that Hemo generates CPs as fast as Mutilate. With 20% crit (reasonable for PvP after resilience), Mutilate generates 0.041 CPs per energy. Hemo generates 0.029, which is 31% lower than Mutilate. That's a rather large difference.
Quote:
The only thing you said that I'd really consider wrong, though, is that Hemo generates CPs as fast as Mutilate. With 20% crit (reasonable for PvP after resilience), Mutilate generates 0.041 CPs per energy. Hemo generates 0.029, which is 31% lower than Mutilate. That's a rather large difference.
/agree
Consider this however. If I'm stunlocking, I'm chaining CS>>>>KS through a blind>>>restealth>>>sap. The fact is, chances are I'm walking away from the fight with two 5 point Kidney shots most of the time, and plenty of time to regen energy. Sure, if I were to stand behind a boss and spamm Hemo or Muti all day long your numbers add would absolutely hold true......but this isn't really the case when PVP stunlocking.
Quote:
Hey Slyyth, what's your spec? Or how about an armory link. My spec is 0/31/30 and I'd like to see how you do hemo/combat maces to compare.
www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0030000000000000000003020552122055100000010005002530002301210000000
The only thing I'm really unhappy with is the 3/5 in malice. I don't feel like I need relentless or ruthlessness when I have AR X2 (for Arena) although I notice it sometimes going from opponent to opponent in standard BG's. So far it has been surprisingly effective build..... with lots of tricks to pull out of my sleeve when necessary. After all, rogues should live up to their reputation and be sneaky tricky bastards. This build gives me that.
Heh, hate to break it to ya, but you're the misinformed rogue.
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