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Warrior Level 70 PvE DPS F.A.QFollow
Ah so anything but an instant attack consumes a charge. Which makes sence.
Even slam doesn't consume flurry ticks.
Flurry uptime generation;
I used the shamulator. Now, it's not 100% accurate. But it is a good baseline.
2.6 MH 1.8 OH
With 25% crit it reads out 51.71% flurry uptime
With 30% crit, 59.59% uptime.
With 33% crit, 62.57%
With 38% crit, 69.95%
With slower weapons, flurry uptime durations went up.
3.6 speed 2h
25% crit = 61.27%
30% crit = 69.39%
33% crit = 72.66%
38% crit = 79.05%
This is counter to initial Flurry proc's chance. Where a slower weapon has a longer wait to proc flurry.
I Just turned off as much as possible, put in some numbers, and hopefully the program wasn't doing anything super dumb.
Since WF consumes and procs flurry, and shaman flurry works almost identically to warriors, the offset is only that WF does the 3 hits not just the extra one we would normally see. But this shouldn't affect our #'s very much if at all.
I'm gonna go look for some source for that program now.
::EDIT::
Alright finding the source wasn't hard. Now to learn programming and/or have my CS major friends do it for fun.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:11am by devioususer
Flurry uptime generation;
I used the shamulator. Now, it's not 100% accurate. But it is a good baseline.
2.6 MH 1.8 OH
With 25% crit it reads out 51.71% flurry uptime
With 30% crit, 59.59% uptime.
With 33% crit, 62.57%
With 38% crit, 69.95%
With slower weapons, flurry uptime durations went up.
3.6 speed 2h
25% crit = 61.27%
30% crit = 69.39%
33% crit = 72.66%
38% crit = 79.05%
This is counter to initial Flurry proc's chance. Where a slower weapon has a longer wait to proc flurry.
I Just turned off as much as possible, put in some numbers, and hopefully the program wasn't doing anything super dumb.
Since WF consumes and procs flurry, and shaman flurry works almost identically to warriors, the offset is only that WF does the 3 hits not just the extra one we would normally see. But this shouldn't affect our #'s very much if at all.
I'm gonna go look for some source for that program now.
::EDIT::
Alright finding the source wasn't hard. Now to learn programming and/or have my CS major friends do it for fun.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 11:11am by devioususer
Well, their WF doesn't consume any charges but can proc Flurry, so that will effect the results. Still worth looking at, I'll check it out.
I had a completely wacky idea though... I'm actually halfway through writing a (primative) but workable DPS simulator in LUA. I don't have access to a compiler at the moment, so why not use WoW's? =p
We'll see how it goes.
EDIT: ***** it, back to relearning C++ or something.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 3:04pm by RPZip
I had a completely wacky idea though... I'm actually halfway through writing a (primative) but workable DPS simulator in LUA. I don't have access to a compiler at the moment, so why not use WoW's? =p
We'll see how it goes.
EDIT: ***** it, back to relearning C++ or something.
Edited, Sep 19th 2007 3:04pm by RPZip
I take it all back. Spent about an hour learning Python, which is a rather nice language, and threw together a (rather inelegant) modeler. At the moment it only supports autoattacks and isn't keeping track of the damage/rage generated, but those are easy enough fixes. Constructing an external text file for it to read to make the calculations/editing simpler, and then I'll try to find some place to upload it.
Preliminary Results for Flurry Uptime
Snipped out the other stat result sheets in order to get to the heart of the matter, as they all say more or less the same thing. With a 20% critrate Flurry is up 55.47% of the time (including BT/WW, effectively also MS for this calculation). Adding 5% crit bumps it to 64.79%, 30% crit is 72.45%, 35% is 78.73% and 40% is 83.91%.
In essence...
20% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 9.29% Flurry Uptime
25% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 7.66% Flurry Uptime
30% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 6.28% Flurry Uptime
35% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 5.18% Flurry Uptime
40% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 4.28% Flurry Uptime
Edited, Sep 20th 2007 3:30am by RPZip
AP = 3000 Crit = 0.2 13.1 % increased hit chance with an overall miss/dodge/parry chance of 20.5 %. Duration of the simulated fight is 600 seconds repeated 500 times. The mainhand weapon deals 311.89 DPS at 2.7 speed with an average damage of 263.52 The offhand weapon deals 196.62 DPS at 1.5 speed. Final Tally Parried 0 times Dodged 25371 times Missed 68525 times Glanced 114594 times Hit 158290 times Crit 91465 times Mainhand swung 124835 times, with Flurry active for 76459 swings. Offhand swung 249910 times, with Flurry active for 131401 swings. Bloodthirst used 95 times. Whirlwind used 72 times. Overall Flurry uptime of 55.467 %.
Snipped out the other stat result sheets in order to get to the heart of the matter, as they all say more or less the same thing. With a 20% critrate Flurry is up 55.47% of the time (including BT/WW, effectively also MS for this calculation). Adding 5% crit bumps it to 64.79%, 30% crit is 72.45%, 35% is 78.73% and 40% is 83.91%.
In essence...
20% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 9.29% Flurry Uptime
25% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 7.66% Flurry Uptime
30% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 6.28% Flurry Uptime
35% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 5.18% Flurry Uptime
40% Crit: Adding 5% Crit grants 4.28% Flurry Uptime
Edited, Sep 20th 2007 3:30am by RPZip
Just another quick question for you guys - and sorry to change the subject again from your current discussion about flurry, but this should hopefully be an easy one. Rogues, I know, have specific reasoning for choosing specific weapon speeds for their main and off hand weapons. Combat, for one, favors a slow main hand for higher damage instant attacks, and a fast off hand for more poision application...and that's all I know about them. I was looking through warrior skills and trying to see if there's any reason to favor a slower or faster weapon while dual wielding, and I couldn't really find any. Overpower, but you can't create a build around that. Whirlwind, maybe? I guess I don't even know if that's an instant attack or on next auto attack. Slam, but from my understanding, you don't use it much as a dw warrior. Mortal strike, but I won't be getting that one once I go dw fury...
OK, so, when you go dw fury, is there any reason to consider your weapon speed?
*Edit - Don't think "speeeds" is a word.
Edited, Sep 20th 2007 6:48am by mikeyvach
OK, so, when you go dw fury, is there any reason to consider your weapon speed?
*Edit - Don't think "speeeds" is a word.
Edited, Sep 20th 2007 6:48am by mikeyvach
Two reasons, although it's primarily a case of personal preference:
1) A slow mainhand benefits more from Whirlwind (not an enormous difference so long as you're not using a dagger, but it is there).
2) A slow mainhand gets more efficient use out of Heroic Strike and generates less threat.
The second one take a bit of explaining... Heroic Strike is 15 Rage and has three effects. It provides innate bonus damage and causes the next attack to generate no rage, which in and of itself would point towards using a faster weapon, but because it recatergorizes the attack as a yellow attack it gets an effective +19% to hit and will receive the Impale bonus.
It costs slightly more rage, and I don't have the exact calculations here, but the basic theory is that you're getting more out of spending ~25 rage to turn 3.0 speed worth of damage into a yellow attack than you would be spending ~20 rage to turn 1.5 speed worth of damage into a yellow attack, especially as the slower one will result in few threat bonuses from HS.
With that said, none of the above really compensate for significant differences in DPS. If you're gaining 10 DPS by putting a fast weapon in the mainhand, do it.
1) A slow mainhand benefits more from Whirlwind (not an enormous difference so long as you're not using a dagger, but it is there).
2) A slow mainhand gets more efficient use out of Heroic Strike and generates less threat.
The second one take a bit of explaining... Heroic Strike is 15 Rage and has three effects. It provides innate bonus damage and causes the next attack to generate no rage, which in and of itself would point towards using a faster weapon, but because it recatergorizes the attack as a yellow attack it gets an effective +19% to hit and will receive the Impale bonus.
It costs slightly more rage, and I don't have the exact calculations here, but the basic theory is that you're getting more out of spending ~25 rage to turn 3.0 speed worth of damage into a yellow attack than you would be spending ~20 rage to turn 1.5 speed worth of damage into a yellow attack, especially as the slower one will result in few threat bonuses from HS.
With that said, none of the above really compensate for significant differences in DPS. If you're gaining 10 DPS by putting a fast weapon in the mainhand, do it.
Updated. Added talent spec section. Will change them as we see fit. Updated the textual 'feeling' of the faq.
/bump
sticky tbh
sticky tbh
I've seen this before, but after doing some testing and playing around with numbers 2/2 Imp. Whirlwind isn't worth the points.
Cycle 1 (WW First, whichever comes up fires);
0: Whirlwind
1.5: Bloodthirst
7.5: Bloodthirst
8: Whirlwind Ready
9: Whirlwind Fires
13.5: Bloodthirst
19: Whirlwind
19.5: Bloodthirst Ready
20.5: Bloodthirst
Repeats, 19s Cycle - 2 Whirlwind, 3 Bloodthirst
6.316 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 9.474 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
Cycle 2 (BT First, whichever comes up fires);
0: Bloodthirst
1.5: Whirlwind
6: Bloodthirst
9.5: Whirlwind
12: Bloodthirst
17.5: Whirlwind
18: Bloodthirst Ready
19: Bloodthirst Fires
25: Bloodthirst
25.5: Whirlwind Ready
26.5: Whirlwind Fires
Repeats, 25s Cycle - 3 Whirlwind, 4 Bloodthirst
7.300 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 9.600 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
Cycle 3 (WW First, 9s WW)
0: Whirlwind
1.5: Bloodthirst
7.5: Bloodthirst
9: Whirlwind
13.5: Bloodthirst
18: Whirlwind
19.5: Bloodthirst
Repeat, 18s Cycle - 2 Whirlwind, 3 Bloodthirst
6.667 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 10 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
Cycle 4 (BT First, 9s WW)
0: Bloodthirst
1.5: Whirlwind
6: Bloodthirst
10.5: Whirlwind
12: Bloodthirst
18: Bloodthirst
19.5: Whirlwind
Repeats, 18s Cycle - 2 Whirlwind, 3 Bloodthirst
6.667 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 10 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
A few notes: 1) The Bloodthirst cycle is much better than the Whirlwind cycle, since the Whirlwind cycle keeps tripping over itself. Both cycles lose time due to the global cooldowns, however.
2) You don't lose a whole lot from dropping a point out of Imp. WW.
Dropping from 2/2 Imp. WW to 1/2 Imp. WW nets you .4 Bloodthirsts per minute at the cost of .634 Whirlwinds per minute. Considering that Bloodthirst will hit considerably harder than Whirlwind will this is a good trade, and you save a talent point you could use in other DPS talents like Imp. Execute or capping Dual Wield spec.
Cycle 1 (WW First, whichever comes up fires);
0: Whirlwind
1.5: Bloodthirst
7.5: Bloodthirst
8: Whirlwind Ready
9: Whirlwind Fires
13.5: Bloodthirst
19: Whirlwind
19.5: Bloodthirst Ready
20.5: Bloodthirst
Repeats, 19s Cycle - 2 Whirlwind, 3 Bloodthirst
6.316 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 9.474 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
Cycle 2 (BT First, whichever comes up fires);
0: Bloodthirst
1.5: Whirlwind
6: Bloodthirst
9.5: Whirlwind
12: Bloodthirst
17.5: Whirlwind
18: Bloodthirst Ready
19: Bloodthirst Fires
25: Bloodthirst
25.5: Whirlwind Ready
26.5: Whirlwind Fires
Repeats, 25s Cycle - 3 Whirlwind, 4 Bloodthirst
7.300 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 9.600 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
Cycle 3 (WW First, 9s WW)
0: Whirlwind
1.5: Bloodthirst
7.5: Bloodthirst
9: Whirlwind
13.5: Bloodthirst
18: Whirlwind
19.5: Bloodthirst
Repeat, 18s Cycle - 2 Whirlwind, 3 Bloodthirst
6.667 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 10 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
Cycle 4 (BT First, 9s WW)
0: Bloodthirst
1.5: Whirlwind
6: Bloodthirst
10.5: Whirlwind
12: Bloodthirst
18: Bloodthirst
19.5: Whirlwind
Repeats, 18s Cycle - 2 Whirlwind, 3 Bloodthirst
6.667 Whirlwinds Per Minute, 10 Bloodthirsts Per Minute
A few notes: 1) The Bloodthirst cycle is much better than the Whirlwind cycle, since the Whirlwind cycle keeps tripping over itself. Both cycles lose time due to the global cooldowns, however.
2) You don't lose a whole lot from dropping a point out of Imp. WW.
Dropping from 2/2 Imp. WW to 1/2 Imp. WW nets you .4 Bloodthirsts per minute at the cost of .634 Whirlwinds per minute. Considering that Bloodthirst will hit considerably harder than Whirlwind will this is a good trade, and you save a talent point you could use in other DPS talents like Imp. Execute or capping Dual Wield spec.
Insane stacking bonuses from stacking AP.
Ok, went through the second page and found something that was left unfinished that caught my interest.
Jim wrote that an 8 str gem will increase your overall dps by 5.6908 dps (i'll just trust em and go with that number for now).
X * .35% = 5.6908
1625.9428 DPS. with the simple math we've been using. no dy/dx equations, derivatives, 3d calc, etc... (yet.)
~1626; 100/62.5 dps mh/of. 1626-162.5 = 1463.5 dps to make up from AP. or 20489 ap. For 8 str vs 8 crit.
Edited, Sep 27th 2007 11:07am by devioususer
Ok, went through the second page and found something that was left unfinished that caught my interest.
Quote:
5.6908
Jim wrote that an 8 str gem will increase your overall dps by 5.6908 dps (i'll just trust em and go with that number for now).
X * .35% = 5.6908
1625.9428 DPS. with the simple math we've been using. no dy/dx equations, derivatives, 3d calc, etc... (yet.)
~1626; 100/62.5 dps mh/of. 1626-162.5 = 1463.5 dps to make up from AP. or 20489 ap. For 8 str vs 8 crit.
Edited, Sep 27th 2007 11:07am by devioususer
Updated the specs a little bit. found something i had 'oversight' problems with.
Quote:
Dropping from 2/2 Imp. WW to 1/2 Imp. WW nets you .4 Bloodthirsts per minute at the cost of .634 Whirlwinds per minute. Considering that Bloodthirst will hit considerably harder than Whirlwind will this is a good trade, and you save a talent point you could use in other DPS talents like Imp. Execute or capping Dual Wield spec.
Nice work RPZ. When I did my first calculations I didn't factor in that imp WW cooldown isn't on par with the global cooldown cycle. Thanks for working this out, I was about to get real brave and do the math on the last point in DW spec vs. one point out of imp execute. No point now, you saved me alot of headache lol.
Yeah, the specs where modified to 1/2 imp ww. I remember in the oboard someone posted something like that when 2.0 patch came out. It totally slipped my mind until you smart people figured it out, or read it somewhere else like me.
Can we have a sticky here please?
Woot
Totally stickied!
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 11:54am by devioususer
Totally stickied!
Edited, Oct 18th 2007 11:54am by devioususer
I really do suggest checking out this spreadsheet.
Seeing as I am a total newbie, I would really like to get an enchantment-list for gear also, in addition to the weapon-enchantments.
Thanks for a great guide anyway :)
Thanks for a great guide anyway :)
Alright. That's easy, here's the same list going into the FAQ.
Head enchant;
Glyph of Ferocity, 34 attack power, 16 hit rating. Cenarion Expidition Revered
Shoulder enchant;
Greater Inscription of Vengeance 30 Attack Power, 10 Critical Strike Rating. Aldor Exalted
Greater Inscription of the Blade 15 Critical Strike Rating, 20 Attack Power. Scryer Exalted
Cloak;
Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility 12 Agility. Enchanter
Chest enchant;
Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats 6 to all stats. Enchanter
Bracer;
Enchant Bracer - Brawn 12 Strength. Enchanter
Gloves;
Enchant Gloves - Major Strength 15 Strength. Enchanter
Legs;
Nethercobra Leg Armor 50 Attack Power, 12 Critical Strike Rating. Leatherworker
Boot;
Enchant Boots - Surefooted 5% root resistance, 10 Hit Rating. Enchanter
Enchant Boots - Dexterity 12 Agility. Enchanter
Ring;
Enchant Ring - Striking +2 weapon damage, Enchanter only. Enchanter
Enchant Ring - Stats 4 All Stats, Enchanter only. Enchanter
Head enchant;
Glyph of Ferocity, 34 attack power, 16 hit rating. Cenarion Expidition Revered
Shoulder enchant;
Greater Inscription of Vengeance 30 Attack Power, 10 Critical Strike Rating. Aldor Exalted
Greater Inscription of the Blade 15 Critical Strike Rating, 20 Attack Power. Scryer Exalted
Cloak;
Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility 12 Agility. Enchanter
Chest enchant;
Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats 6 to all stats. Enchanter
Bracer;
Enchant Bracer - Brawn 12 Strength. Enchanter
Gloves;
Enchant Gloves - Major Strength 15 Strength. Enchanter
Legs;
Nethercobra Leg Armor 50 Attack Power, 12 Critical Strike Rating. Leatherworker
Boot;
Enchant Boots - Surefooted 5% root resistance, 10 Hit Rating. Enchanter
Enchant Boots - Dexterity 12 Agility. Enchanter
Ring;
Enchant Ring - Striking +2 weapon damage, Enchanter only. Enchanter
Enchant Ring - Stats 4 All Stats, Enchanter only. Enchanter
Devious,
Great job on the FAQ, especially with keeping it up to date. I just have one qeustion regarding weapon skill. I believe the facts that you have for "1 Weapon skill = .04% to hit and crit" are for equal level mobs, not necessarily raid level bosses.
The Elitist Jerks have a huge thread about weapon skill adjustments here with a summary table in post #512 here.
It's been pretty well tested that +5 weapon skill gives +3% to hit against a level 73 mob. The +4 weapon skill hasn't been as well tested, but seems to indicate that it grants about 1.6% to hit. (Note that they assume a base 9% chance to miss a level 73 mob for single/2h wielding and 28% for d/w)
This would mean that you would only need about 117 hit rating to cap out 2h DPS or Sword and Board with Weapon Mastery, rather than the 133 that you have listed.
Thanks again for the great guide.
-Camel
Great job on the FAQ, especially with keeping it up to date. I just have one qeustion regarding weapon skill. I believe the facts that you have for "1 Weapon skill = .04% to hit and crit" are for equal level mobs, not necessarily raid level bosses.
The Elitist Jerks have a huge thread about weapon skill adjustments here with a summary table in post #512 here.
It's been pretty well tested that +5 weapon skill gives +3% to hit against a level 73 mob. The +4 weapon skill hasn't been as well tested, but seems to indicate that it grants about 1.6% to hit. (Note that they assume a base 9% chance to miss a level 73 mob for single/2h wielding and 28% for d/w)
This would mean that you would only need about 117 hit rating to cap out 2h DPS or Sword and Board with Weapon Mastery, rather than the 133 that you have listed.
Thanks again for the great guide.
-Camel
Weapon skill or weapon skill rating?
Weapon skill rating =/= weapon skill.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2007 2:00pm by devioususer
ahhh never mind i see.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2007 2:06pm by devioususer
Weapon skill rating =/= weapon skill.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2007 2:00pm by devioususer
ahhh never mind i see.
Edited, Oct 22nd 2007 2:06pm by devioususer
So talking about consumable items:
Potions and scrolls don't stack?
Are 2 potions the absolute max I can consume at one sitting?
Potions and scrolls don't stack?
Are 2 potions the absolute max I can consume at one sitting?
1 pot per 2 minutes
2 elixirs (one gaurdian one combat) per their individual timers (1 hour usually) OR 1 flask.
2 elixirs (one gaurdian one combat) per their individual timers (1 hour usually) OR 1 flask.
That relates to skill, not rating, but either way it's obsolete information come next patch as they're stripping +skill off everything.
Hmmm.. just thinking...
without knowing what the new talents are... it's hard to speculate. But;
25/46/0 seems very very doable.
without knowing what the new talents are... it's hard to speculate. But;
25/46/0 seems very very doable.
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