double post
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 4:14pm by Jimpadan
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Warrior Level 70 PvE DPS F.A.QFollow
damn server lag
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 4:13pm by Jimpadan
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 4:13pm by Jimpadan
25% chance to do between 55 and 75% damage (65% on average), at least when looking at a mob three levels above you. Mobs that are closer in level have a lesser chance for glancings and the reduction is also lesser.
It's still 25% chance? I thought it got reduced in a recent patch. Oh well, I'll go back and edit that in. Will probably be editted tomorrow though, I'm taking off work early today :P
It was reduced, it used to be a 40% chance. =p
Quote:
Yes, but my point was that in terms of BT it doesn't matter in the slightest what your crit rate is when determining the breakpoint. +8 Crit Rating provides the same increase to BT damage if you're sitting at 0% crit or 70% crit. That's why when I calculated out the original forumla assuming 0% crit, it still worked when I did the actual math assuming 30% crit.
But crit rate does affect AP's contribution to the formula. Which is why it should be included for the formulas.
Ugh.
But the point isn't to determine how much damage Bloodthirst will do, it's to determine the point at which one stat is more effective than the other (breakpoint). There's no reason to make the math more complicated than it has to be to obtain an arbitrary number that isn't what you're looking for.
X + Y ^ 38.72 / 9^3Y * (2X) * 0 = 4
Solve the equation.
But the point isn't to determine how much damage Bloodthirst will do, it's to determine the point at which one stat is more effective than the other (breakpoint). There's no reason to make the math more complicated than it has to be to obtain an arbitrary number that isn't what you're looking for.
X + Y ^ 38.72 / 9^3Y * (2X) * 0 = 4
Solve the equation.
(xyz^xzy) * 0 =/= 4
An interesting note actually, I've been working on a spreadsheet. I'm up to the point of calculating miss/glance for white dps, so I have 100% hit rate DPS. I know this is a HUGE factor but still... Something I noticed.
With White DPS, I'm noticing that as I increase crit rates, it increases the overall increase that AP provides. Making AP in fact more useful of an increase than Crit especially after you increase crit.
After putting in;
1000 AP
15 Crit
Imp berserker 5/5, impale 2/2, d/w spec 5/5
Season 2 gladiators base dps (97.7).
I end up with 370.21 DPS total (with out miss rates etc...)
+8 str = 373.17 DPS
+8 crit = 371.17 DPS
2.13 DPS difference, in favor of the strength gem.
2000 AP
15 crit, etc... all the same
542.57 DPS Base
545.66 DPS +8 Str
543.98 DPS +8 Crit
1.68 DPS difference
Now I add 10 crit;
2000 AP
25 Crit, etc... all the same
582.77 Base
586.08 +8 Str
584.17 +8 Crit
1.91 DPS difference. It went up!
I tried this with much much higher AP values, and every time I added crit it increased the value you get from AP/str increases.
I know i must add in miss/glancing. But for today I'll leave you with the monstrosity that I made today;
=((C10/14+B3)+(D4*((B4/2+(C10/14)/2)+((0.05*B15)*(C10/14)/2))))*(1+((B14*10)/100)+(B11/100))
=((C10/14+B3 +(16/14))+(D4*((B4/2+(C10/14)/2+((16/14)/2))+((0.05*B15)*(C10/14)/2+(16/14)/2))))*(1+((B14*10)/100)+(B11/100))
=((C10/14+B3)+(D4*((B4/2+(C10/14)/2)+((0.05*B15)*(C10/14)/2))))*(1+((B14*10)/100)+(B11/100) +0.0035)
::EDIT::and then i find a fault in my spreadsheet... >.<
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 8:19pm by devioususer
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 8:24pm by devioususer
Even after I fixed the error, Crit still makes how useful AP increases are better.
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 8:25pm by devioususer
With White DPS, I'm noticing that as I increase crit rates, it increases the overall increase that AP provides. Making AP in fact more useful of an increase than Crit especially after you increase crit.
After putting in;
1000 AP
15 Crit
Imp berserker 5/5, impale 2/2, d/w spec 5/5
Season 2 gladiators base dps (97.7).
I end up with 370.21 DPS total (with out miss rates etc...)
+8 str = 373.17 DPS
+8 crit = 371.17 DPS
2.13 DPS difference, in favor of the strength gem.
2000 AP
15 crit, etc... all the same
542.57 DPS Base
545.66 DPS +8 Str
543.98 DPS +8 Crit
1.68 DPS difference
Now I add 10 crit;
2000 AP
25 Crit, etc... all the same
582.77 Base
586.08 +8 Str
584.17 +8 Crit
1.91 DPS difference. It went up!
I tried this with much much higher AP values, and every time I added crit it increased the value you get from AP/str increases.
I know i must add in miss/glancing. But for today I'll leave you with the monstrosity that I made today;
=((C10/14+B3)+(D4*((B4/2+(C10/14)/2)+((0.05*B15)*(C10/14)/2))))*(1+((B14*10)/100)+(B11/100))
=((C10/14+B3 +(16/14))+(D4*((B4/2+(C10/14)/2+((16/14)/2))+((0.05*B15)*(C10/14)/2+(16/14)/2))))*(1+((B14*10)/100)+(B11/100))
=((C10/14+B3)+(D4*((B4/2+(C10/14)/2)+((0.05*B15)*(C10/14)/2))))*(1+((B14*10)/100)+(B11/100) +0.0035)
::EDIT::and then i find a fault in my spreadsheet... >.<
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 8:19pm by devioususer
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 8:24pm by devioususer
Even after I fixed the error, Crit still makes how useful AP increases are better.
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 8:25pm by devioususer
don't worry rp, weapon speed vs. gcd is a devil's staircase so integrals are out of the question.
lol... this is a reply to the last post of the first page... missed the whole second page here...
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 11:39pm by axhed
lol... this is a reply to the last post of the first page... missed the whole second page here...
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 11:39pm by axhed
I didn't mean for you to actually solve it, the intent was to prove a point.You've got a huge, complicated formula in there... that has no effect on the end result at all. I'd rather just write it as x = 4 (or excluding variables from a calculation that _do not effect the end result_). The same applies to the breakpoint formula.
With White DPS, I'm noticing that as I increase crit rates, it increases the overall increase that AP provides. Making AP in fact more useful of an increase than Crit especially after you increase crit.
They both scale, Crit scales more. For everything there is a breakpoint where adding more crit provides more DPS than adding more AP. Excluding Flurry calculations, the breakpoint is the same at _any_ level of crit. If the breakpoint for autoattack at X level of hit is 5000 AP, in terms of pure damage output gains you'll get the same benefit at 0% crit or 30%. (Again, excluding Flurry).
Quote:
With White DPS, I'm noticing that as I increase crit rates, it increases the overall increase that AP provides. Making AP in fact more useful of an increase than Crit especially after you increase crit.
They both scale, Crit scales more. For everything there is a breakpoint where adding more crit provides more DPS than adding more AP. Excluding Flurry calculations, the breakpoint is the same at _any_ level of crit. If the breakpoint for autoattack at X level of hit is 5000 AP, in terms of pure damage output gains you'll get the same benefit at 0% crit or 30%. (Again, excluding Flurry).
I'm actually just making a spreadsheet for DPS values.
It's fun. I'll simplify it later.
My first step is calculate white dps properly.
Second, add in buffs to the equation.
3rd, dunno yet.
::EDIT::
I figured after i calculated in miss rate and glancing blows, since crits can't miss or glance. Crit scales better than ap.
But with high values like 5k ap for breakpoints, or even 3k+ for some, it seems to me that most DPS warriors will want to stack ap over crit after they get their flurry proc'd the way they want it to be.
My gut says AP>Crit>AP; both crit and hit cap out and have diminishing returns.. AP never stops (so far).
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 9:35pm by devioususer
It's fun. I'll simplify it later.
My first step is calculate white dps properly.
Second, add in buffs to the equation.
3rd, dunno yet.
::EDIT::
Quote:
They both scale, Crit scales more. For everything there is a breakpoint where adding more crit provides more DPS than adding more AP.
I figured after i calculated in miss rate and glancing blows, since crits can't miss or glance. Crit scales better than ap.
But with high values like 5k ap for breakpoints, or even 3k+ for some, it seems to me that most DPS warriors will want to stack ap over crit after they get their flurry proc'd the way they want it to be.
My gut says AP>Crit>AP; both crit and hit cap out and have diminishing returns.. AP never stops (so far).
Edited, Sep 12th 2007 9:35pm by devioususer
Quote:
I figured after i calculated in miss rate and glancing blows, since crits can't miss or glance. Crit scales better than ap.
But with high values like 5k ap for breakpoints, or even 3k+ for some, it seems to me that most DPS warriors will want to stack ap over crit after they get their flurry proc'd the way they want it to be.
My gut says AP>Crit>AP; both crit and hit cap out and have diminishing returns.. AP never stops (so far).
Yes, although I suspect the second AP there is supposed to be hit. Crit scales better, but only after your AP achieves exceedingly high values. I'm sitting on 1931 AP, 31% Crit, 200 Hit unbuffed in 'Zerker and I know that I gain more from AP than I do from Crit, and will continue to do so for quite a while.
Good luck calculating white damage properly, and I mean that. Calculating Flurry properly is a *****.
30% Crit Rate, Flurry uptime from autoattacks (no weapon speed/dual wield/instant attack calculations involved here for now).
The chance for Flurry to refresh itself is described by the curve Y = .7 ^ X. As X approaches 0, Y becomes smaller and smaller. X is the number of attacks, Y is the chance of the string of noncrits occurring.
Ugh. I'll finish this tommorow, I just had an idea but it's 4 AM.
ATK CRIT% NOCRIT 1 .300 .7000 2 .300 .4900 3 .300 .3430 4 .300 .2401 5 .300 .1687 6 .300 .1176 7 .300 .0824
The chance for Flurry to refresh itself is described by the curve Y = .7 ^ X. As X approaches 0, Y becomes smaller and smaller. X is the number of attacks, Y is the chance of the string of noncrits occurring.
Ugh. I'll finish this tommorow, I just had an idea but it's 4 AM.
Ok, I see where you'r going with that. Luckily we have ti-86's and spreadsheets to counter our own brains tendency to over complicate and fail.
Yeah, I meant AP>Crit>Hit.
At least until well past 3-5k AP. And even then, it's still a significant factor to dps.
Yeah, I meant AP>Crit>Hit.
At least until well past 3-5k AP. And even then, it's still a significant factor to dps.
I made a simple spreadsheet for flurry uptime
Free file sharing? ZOMGA!
Put in your own crit %, the speed of your weapons, and how long in seconds you want to calculate for (try low numbers first)
This is just your first proc of flurry.
::EDIT::
I'm going to add post flurry proc chance in the next version.
3 swings at 25% haste. then the rest at normal pace.
The 'Chance of no crit' .00 refers to .00% chance not 00% chance.
Edited, Sep 13th 2007 8:33am by devioususer
damnit, i'll just fix the xml.
Edited, Sep 13th 2007 8:35am by devioususer
Edited, Sep 13th 2007 8:35am by devioususer
Free file sharing? ZOMGA!
Put in your own crit %, the speed of your weapons, and how long in seconds you want to calculate for (try low numbers first)
This is just your first proc of flurry.
::EDIT::
I'm going to add post flurry proc chance in the next version.
3 swings at 25% haste. then the rest at normal pace.
The 'Chance of no crit' .00 refers to .00% chance not 00% chance.
Edited, Sep 13th 2007 8:33am by devioususer
damnit, i'll just fix the xml.
Edited, Sep 13th 2007 8:35am by devioususer
Edited, Sep 13th 2007 8:35am by devioususer
Edited my earlier post to include glance math.
New post to calculate dps from crit gem.
Will use 4000 AP, 33% crit, and Merciless Gladiator weapons. Same stats I used in AP calculations.
White dmg
4000/14 = 285.7143
97.7 * 285.7143 = 383.4143 * 1.33 = 509.9353
383.41 * 1.3335 = 511.2772
1.3419 (main hand)
1.3419 * .625 = .8387 (off hand)
2.1806 * .056 = .1221
2.0585 dps increase in white dmg.
BT numbers
4000 * .45 = 1800 * .33 = 594 * 1.2 = 712.8
1800 + 712.8 = 2512.8 average dmg per BT
4000 * .45 = 1800 * .3335 = 600.3 * 1.2 = 720.36
1800 + 720.36 = 2520.36
7.56 dmg increase per BT
10 BT per minute = 75.6/60 = 1.26 * .056 = .0706
1.26 - .0706 = 1.1894 dps increase in BT dmg
WW numbers
203 + 305 = 508/2 = 254 (merc gladiator slicer)
254 + (285.7143 * 2.3) = 911.1429 * .33 = 300.6772 * 1.2 = 360.8126
911.1429 + 360.8126 = 1271.9555 average dmg per WW
911.1429 * .3335 = 303.8662 * 1.2 = 364.3694
911.1429 + 364.3694 = 1275.7823
3.8268 dmg increase per WW
7.5 WW per minute (assuming imp WW) 28.7009/60 = .4783 * .056 = .0268
.4783 - .0268 = .4515 dps increase in WW dmg.
HS numbers
254 + 176 + (285.7143 * 2.6) = 1172.8572 * .33 = 387.0429 * 1.2 = 464.4514
1172.8572 + 464.4514 = 1637.3086 average dmg per HS
1172.8572 * .3335 = 391.1479 * 1.2 = 469.3775
1172.8572 + 469.3775 = 1642.2347
4.9261 dmg increase per HS
Assuming 7 per minute as in aforementioned post.
34.4824/60 = .5747 * .056 = .0322
.5747 - .0322 = .5425 dps increase in HS dmg.
So total dps added from the crit gem is 2.0585 + 1.1894 + .4515 + .5425 = 4.2419 total dps increase from crit gems.
This is not included the added dps from extra flurry uptime or extra deepwounds ticks since one they are extremely hard to calculate and wouldn't be a ground breaking dps increase.
Guesstimate it at about 4.5 dps increase factoring those two in and that is probably being generous.
Given the stats in these examples the str gems do come out on top by a fair margin when you have all 3 stacking AP buffs.
New post to calculate dps from crit gem.
Will use 4000 AP, 33% crit, and Merciless Gladiator weapons. Same stats I used in AP calculations.
White dmg
4000/14 = 285.7143
97.7 * 285.7143 = 383.4143 * 1.33 = 509.9353
383.41 * 1.3335 = 511.2772
1.3419 (main hand)
1.3419 * .625 = .8387 (off hand)
2.1806 * .056 = .1221
2.0585 dps increase in white dmg.
BT numbers
4000 * .45 = 1800 * .33 = 594 * 1.2 = 712.8
1800 + 712.8 = 2512.8 average dmg per BT
4000 * .45 = 1800 * .3335 = 600.3 * 1.2 = 720.36
1800 + 720.36 = 2520.36
7.56 dmg increase per BT
10 BT per minute = 75.6/60 = 1.26 * .056 = .0706
1.26 - .0706 = 1.1894 dps increase in BT dmg
WW numbers
203 + 305 = 508/2 = 254 (merc gladiator slicer)
254 + (285.7143 * 2.3) = 911.1429 * .33 = 300.6772 * 1.2 = 360.8126
911.1429 + 360.8126 = 1271.9555 average dmg per WW
911.1429 * .3335 = 303.8662 * 1.2 = 364.3694
911.1429 + 364.3694 = 1275.7823
3.8268 dmg increase per WW
7.5 WW per minute (assuming imp WW) 28.7009/60 = .4783 * .056 = .0268
.4783 - .0268 = .4515 dps increase in WW dmg.
HS numbers
254 + 176 + (285.7143 * 2.6) = 1172.8572 * .33 = 387.0429 * 1.2 = 464.4514
1172.8572 + 464.4514 = 1637.3086 average dmg per HS
1172.8572 * .3335 = 391.1479 * 1.2 = 469.3775
1172.8572 + 469.3775 = 1642.2347
4.9261 dmg increase per HS
Assuming 7 per minute as in aforementioned post.
34.4824/60 = .5747 * .056 = .0322
.5747 - .0322 = .5425 dps increase in HS dmg.
So total dps added from the crit gem is 2.0585 + 1.1894 + .4515 + .5425 = 4.2419 total dps increase from crit gems.
This is not included the added dps from extra flurry uptime or extra deepwounds ticks since one they are extremely hard to calculate and wouldn't be a ground breaking dps increase.
Guesstimate it at about 4.5 dps increase factoring those two in and that is probably being generous.
Given the stats in these examples the str gems do come out on top by a fair margin when you have all 3 stacking AP buffs.
Does attacking from behind really make a difference vs full frontal?
Yes, hehe... yes it does.
They ... uh, can't parry from the back. While they can from the front.
They ... uh, can't parry from the back. While they can from the front.
Another slow day so I'ma crunch the numbers for only 2 and 1 of the AP buffs.
Now instead of writing out all the math again I'ma just plug the new numbers into the equations and give the final verdict.
With just kings and imp zerker 8 * 1.1 = 8.8 * 2 = 17.6 * 1.1 = 19.36
White dps increase is 2.1833
BT dps increase is 1.9134
WW dps increase is .5265
HS dps increase is .5548
Total dps increase is 5.178
With just imp zerker 8 * 2 = 16 * 1.1 = 17.6
White dps increase is 1.9848
BT dps increase is 1.7395
WW dps increase is .4791
HS dps increase is .5046
Total dps increase is 4.708
Now instead of writing out all the math again I'ma just plug the new numbers into the equations and give the final verdict.
With just kings and imp zerker 8 * 1.1 = 8.8 * 2 = 17.6 * 1.1 = 19.36
White dps increase is 2.1833
BT dps increase is 1.9134
WW dps increase is .5265
HS dps increase is .5548
Total dps increase is 5.178
With just imp zerker 8 * 2 = 16 * 1.1 = 17.6
White dps increase is 1.9848
BT dps increase is 1.7395
WW dps increase is .4791
HS dps increase is .5046
Total dps increase is 4.708
devioususer wrote:
My first step is calculate white dps properly.
Second, add in buffs to the equation.
3rd, dunno yet.
Step 3 is PROFIT! of course lol.
Found this little gem;
http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/30492
http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/30492
That little gem isn't working as of 7:22 p.m.
Put in all my info and didn't get a final dps number. It didn't calculate my WW or HS dmg for that matter.
Put in all my info and didn't get a final dps number. It didn't calculate my WW or HS dmg for that matter.
It was working earlier. And it's a good start for me to help my own spreadsheet math. If anyone felt like it, they could reverse engineer some of the math.
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