i've concluded that ret pally dps is highly dependant on the MT/OT as much as the pally himself. i had a horrible time in Kara tonight. the MT was a blue/purp geared pally. i started off at 600-700 dps on aoe trash and began to lose ground on elite trash and bosses due to fear of over-aggro. not once was i able to unload or even pop AW, however, nor did the MT :\
this is a total reversal of last week when a different pally MT took the helm. he had similar gear(maybe a bit more spell dmg). that run i had BoM instead of Salv and was whackin away from the pull.
all in all, this week i was fighting to stay above 400 dps while also battling the MT and OT to stay out of the #1/#2 aggro spot. lol, the #1 mage said in TS he was using my threat bar as his aggro guage.
sry, no screen shots today /cry
i'm interested to see how Bodh is making out.
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I got really really bored with Ret and went back. Really bored. I had pushed up to 1500 AP, 20% crit and 68 Hit Rating as well as some spell damage. Not too shabby for two weeks farming! The fact that all I was doing was auto attack and judgements/CS had me really bored. My dps wasn't bad considering though.
The problem with Ret is that they only need 110% threat to pull aggro of tanks threat and you are dead, especially as a melee you will get 1-2 shotted. If you make it to Gruul's you really have to watch because Hurtful Strike hits the person in Melee with 2nd highest threat and it will 1 shot you even with 10k health.
Range dps has to get 130% threat to pull aggro off a tank, plus most have built in aggro reducers. Rogues and Cat druids have 29% reduced aggro. Hell even a fury warrior in berserker form gets 10% reduced. Which is why they can pump out more dps while you are forced to hold back. It would be key if you could get another Pally into raid and have him put Bosalv on you, hell even if you are the only one you need to put Bosalv on yourself. DPS = 0 when dead afterall.
You still need to up your hit rating, remember your going against lvl 73 elites. Right build it only takes 89 hit rating to push your misses to 1% and if you read my other post you will realize that for raiding hit rating is more important for upping dps than Crit. (Don't go past the necessary amount though or it is wasted).
Pally tanks are great because their threat generation is so high (especially in Kara) that even a prot warrior can pull it off them. Doesn't mean the tank sucks if he doesn't build as much aggro as a prot pally.
How far did you make it this time Tommy and where specifically did you start having trouble?
The problem with Ret is that they only need 110% threat to pull aggro of tanks threat and you are dead, especially as a melee you will get 1-2 shotted. If you make it to Gruul's you really have to watch because Hurtful Strike hits the person in Melee with 2nd highest threat and it will 1 shot you even with 10k health.
Range dps has to get 130% threat to pull aggro off a tank, plus most have built in aggro reducers. Rogues and Cat druids have 29% reduced aggro. Hell even a fury warrior in berserker form gets 10% reduced. Which is why they can pump out more dps while you are forced to hold back. It would be key if you could get another Pally into raid and have him put Bosalv on you, hell even if you are the only one you need to put Bosalv on yourself. DPS = 0 when dead afterall.
You still need to up your hit rating, remember your going against lvl 73 elites. Right build it only takes 89 hit rating to push your misses to 1% and if you read my other post you will realize that for raiding hit rating is more important for upping dps than Crit. (Don't go past the necessary amount though or it is wasted).
Pally tanks are great because their threat generation is so high (especially in Kara) that even a prot warrior can pull it off them. Doesn't mean the tank sucks if he doesn't build as much aggro as a prot pally.
How far did you make it this time Tommy and where specifically did you start having trouble?
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
How far did you make it this time Tommy and where specifically did you start having trouble?
this week was more or less a 3hr rep run and to give group2 some boss practice. attumen, moroes, maiden were the targets.
anything high armor and hard hitting was tricky: valets, skele's, and especially the groups of leet stewards. as always, i'd give the tank at least 5k threat before i jump in, which is about 3secs. then the battle to stay under the MT began. this was especially frustrating after maiden on those leets that ice block the MT. i didn't die, but when i bubbled the mage under me did a few times. i just dont like the high threat investment vs the lower dps return. its difficult trying to conform to the tank's playstyle while trying to maximize your own.
i'm also trying to figure out why i had such a breeze with Tagrey(where i had BoM the whole run) yet had trouble with Homers(where i had BoSanc most of the time) i did notice neither of them used AW and Homers didn't usually judge any debuffs:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blade%27s+Edge&n=Tagrey
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blade%27s+Edge&n=Homers
Quote:
You still need to up your hit rating, remember your going against lvl 73 elites. Right build it only takes 89 hit rating to push your misses to 1% and if you read my other post you will realize that for raiding hit rating is more important for upping dps than Crit. (Don't go past the necessary amount though or it is wasted).
i agree, i'm workin on it.
The difference between your tanks was spell damage. Tagrey has 270 and Homers has 70. Since Holy damage is threat for a Prot pally that is the difference.
The prot pally I run Kara with has the benefit of being a little better geared but he is pushing 522 Def and still has +370 spell damage.
The prot pally I run Kara with has the benefit of being a little better geared but he is pushing 522 Def and still has +370 spell damage.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Warriors get 20% reduction in 'Zerker or Battle Stance, actually.
Which still kind of proves your point. I'm holding out hope that Blizz is going to introduce some kind of inverse-Righteous Fury effect (or cut all Paladin threat by a certain amount, then make Righteous Fury stronger, which would also work), otherwise no matter what changes they make Ret is going to be a bad raiding spec.
Amusingly enough, the previewed changes are designed to eliminate Ret from any kind of viability. They moved their one good debuff (3% crit on a seal!) to the second tier, and reduced the damage bonus from Vengeance (admittedly it's now easier to keep stacked, but still...) It's as if they said "We know that pretty much every other spec is now viable for raids, and as for Ret... ***** it, we're going to remove whatever reason there is no to bring you."
Which still kind of proves your point. I'm holding out hope that Blizz is going to introduce some kind of inverse-Righteous Fury effect (or cut all Paladin threat by a certain amount, then make Righteous Fury stronger, which would also work), otherwise no matter what changes they make Ret is going to be a bad raiding spec.
Amusingly enough, the previewed changes are designed to eliminate Ret from any kind of viability. They moved their one good debuff (3% crit on a seal!) to the second tier, and reduced the damage bonus from Vengeance (admittedly it's now easier to keep stacked, but still...) It's as if they said "We know that pretty much every other spec is now viable for raids, and as for Ret... ***** it, we're going to remove whatever reason there is no to bring you."
RPZip wrote:
Amusingly enough, the previewed changes are designed to eliminate Ret from any kind of viability. They moved their one good debuff (3% crit on a seal!) to the second tier, and reduced the damage bonus from Vengeance (admittedly it's now easier to keep stacked, but still...) It's as if they said "We know that pretty much every other spec is now viable for raids, and as for Ret... ***** it, we're going to remove whatever reason there is no to bring you."
Yeah, pretty much. Retribution might be workable in the arena and BG's with these changes, but it's not going to do much for their raiding. As I said in a different thread, they still have not addressed the most critical issue for Retribution Paladins at the moment, which is their threat as you are well aware.
Pally tanks are great because their threat generation is so high (especially in Kara) that even a prot warrior can pull it off them.
you meant "can't pull if off" right? still mulling that one over lol
you meant "can't pull if off" right? still mulling that one over lol
oops didnt quote that from bodhi
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