Hi, 44 Arms warrior here, and I was tanking in Uldaman today. The party was myself, healadin, two locks and a hunter, who was giving me some trouble. At the beginning of every pull, he wouldn't pull so much as just send his pet in and start blasting away. I then had to run in and pull hate off of his pet, which would get ripped to pieces otherwise. When I asked the hunter to give me a few seconds to establish solid threat before he sent his pet in, I got ignored. I decide to let his cat die on a couple of pulls just to get my point across, and then I get berated for tanking poorly.
Here's my question(s): First, is it standard procedure to let the tank get some threat before the dps starts, or does everyone just unload as soon as the pull starts? Second, is it within my rights as a tank to get the hunter booted if he won't listen to me? DPS is much easier to find than a tank, but I'm also not the best tank in the world, so I wouldn't be exactly comfortable making demands like that. Third, is this an unavoidable part of PUGs? I don't want to boss people around, but it seems like as the tank, I usually end up taking charge and giving party members a good tongue-lashing for various reasons.
In conclusion, am I an ***?
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Am I a rude tank?Follow
many people are idiots in groups and feel that their dps class means that they don't care about anything else but topping the damage charts... to answer your questions in order though
1) yes, you are supposed to (as dps) give tank a bit to gain aggro. it is also your duty (as dps) to make sure you don't go over the tank no matter how much he sucks, unless its like 10% left to death of a boss and you blow all your cooldowns so you can down that boss [unless you're in raids, although still, some people go ALL out as soon as that 10% hits bc its regarded as a "must kill" scenario]
2) by all means, if the hunter is being stupid, messing up the healer, you, and the group, get another dps, you're the tank, you won't have a problem finding a group if you really want to. if your healer feels mutual about this then its a 100% group kick, if the healer is really strong about letting the person stay ( if its his down syndromed brother or guild mate with a similar demise) then i would talk to that person and maybe that healer will get through to the idiot who is messing up
3) yes, you will have to gamble this with every pug you make, heck just today i ran ramparts 5 times with my new-to-outlands druid, i got my leather belt ninjaed 3 times and the last time [a 70 paladin rolled need...] i said something about it, which prompted him to /1 don't group with ______ because he's an awful tank and ninjaed [proceeds to link 5 things from loot link from one boss here].
naturally, you have to take gambles on such idiots all the time [luckily, since I've been running ramparts just about all day, every day this past week, many people that were on have ran with me at some point in time, contradicted him, and proceeded to laugh at his guild]
in conclusion, no, you have every right to tell people they're idiots really. if you're doing your job right [holding aggro after the initial pull] then you have every excuse to yell at the person who is trying to make sure you never establish it in the first place, or that stupid rogue who sits in stealth making poisons and bandaids while you fight, etc etc.
make sure they're aware that between them getting a huge repair bill and successfully getting that new blue item it's only up to you. The group wouldn't be able to kill anything without a tank [unless they're way overleveled or SUPER over-geared, or both]. if people **** me off more than 3 times [3 x's you're out!] i let them die over and over and over to make sure they get the point... unless it's really hurting our group, in which case i usually get them kicked.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 1:14:47am by russki
1) yes, you are supposed to (as dps) give tank a bit to gain aggro. it is also your duty (as dps) to make sure you don't go over the tank no matter how much he sucks, unless its like 10% left to death of a boss and you blow all your cooldowns so you can down that boss [unless you're in raids, although still, some people go ALL out as soon as that 10% hits bc its regarded as a "must kill" scenario]
2) by all means, if the hunter is being stupid, messing up the healer, you, and the group, get another dps, you're the tank, you won't have a problem finding a group if you really want to. if your healer feels mutual about this then its a 100% group kick, if the healer is really strong about letting the person stay ( if its his down syndromed brother or guild mate with a similar demise) then i would talk to that person and maybe that healer will get through to the idiot who is messing up
3) yes, you will have to gamble this with every pug you make, heck just today i ran ramparts 5 times with my new-to-outlands druid, i got my leather belt ninjaed 3 times and the last time [a 70 paladin rolled need...] i said something about it, which prompted him to /1 don't group with ______ because he's an awful tank and ninjaed [proceeds to link 5 things from loot link from one boss here].
naturally, you have to take gambles on such idiots all the time [luckily, since I've been running ramparts just about all day, every day this past week, many people that were on have ran with me at some point in time, contradicted him, and proceeded to laugh at his guild]
in conclusion, no, you have every right to tell people they're idiots really. if you're doing your job right [holding aggro after the initial pull] then you have every excuse to yell at the person who is trying to make sure you never establish it in the first place, or that stupid rogue who sits in stealth making poisons and bandaids while you fight, etc etc.
make sure they're aware that between them getting a huge repair bill and successfully getting that new blue item it's only up to you. The group wouldn't be able to kill anything without a tank [unless they're way overleveled or SUPER over-geared, or both]. if people **** me off more than 3 times [3 x's you're out!] i let them die over and over and over to make sure they get the point... unless it's really hurting our group, in which case i usually get them kicked.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 1:14:47am by russki
My main is a hunter, and I find it interesting that you would have to pull hate off of the hunter's pet. I take this to mean that the hunter was leaving growl on (otherwise, it should only take one of your attacks to get hate back (and was the hunter not sending his pet after the main target? another no-no))- as a general rule, growl should be off in instances, unless the pet *has* to do some off-tanking. Even then, growl technically doesn't have to be on as long as no one else touches the pet's target.
In my all of my groups - PUGs or otherwise - I prefer that the tank take a leadership role. It just seems to make things easier. I think you'll find that as you do more groups, you'll be expected to lead, and as such, make sure any hunters in your groups are leaving growl off and are sending their pets after the main target. Even if the pet gets to the target at the same time you do, or even before, it won't be able to take hate from you if growl is off. Our pet's attacks just aren't strong enough. And yes, the dps should wait to start unloading - not doing so just causes trouble for everyone. The tank has to run around to try to keep the mobs under control, the healer has more targets to use mana on, etc.
Before letting the pet die, I would have sent the hunter a few tells letting him know what he was doing wrong - which you said you did. When you're talking to people to tell them what to do, it helps to know each class at least a little bit, so use what I have told you in the future when you encounter hunters such as this. While our pets have a lot of armor and can take a beating, they don't have near the avoidance or health of a tank, so they cannot stand up to elites for very long. Explain this to them if necessary. It might be you were encountering someone such as myself at that level. I didn't do many instances because I didn't have to (hunters are VERY easy to solo with) and I was always scared that I would ***** up a group hardcore. Hopefully you'll be able to help someone become a better player.
In your case, I would have let the hunter's pet die, and then defended myself by saying that 1) the hunter can control, heal, and revive his own pet - you shouldn't have to babysit it, and 2) you babysitting the pet would hurt the whole group - instead of concentrating on taking down targets quicker, you have to try to keep an expendable group member alive, making everything take longer. I'm of the opinion that if my pet dies in an instance, it's my own stupidity. I have complete control over my pet - I tell it what to attack, when to attack, when to come and stay by me, and I can heal it myself - not as well as an acutal healer, but as long as it isn't tanking, my heals are sufficient to account for AOE attacks and such.
So, in the end, don't worry about what you did. You were right. I have been in some bad PUGs, but if you play well, you'll eventually come across other good players in PUGs who you'll add to your friends list and group with later on, negating the need to group very often with bad players.
In my all of my groups - PUGs or otherwise - I prefer that the tank take a leadership role. It just seems to make things easier. I think you'll find that as you do more groups, you'll be expected to lead, and as such, make sure any hunters in your groups are leaving growl off and are sending their pets after the main target. Even if the pet gets to the target at the same time you do, or even before, it won't be able to take hate from you if growl is off. Our pet's attacks just aren't strong enough. And yes, the dps should wait to start unloading - not doing so just causes trouble for everyone. The tank has to run around to try to keep the mobs under control, the healer has more targets to use mana on, etc.
Before letting the pet die, I would have sent the hunter a few tells letting him know what he was doing wrong - which you said you did. When you're talking to people to tell them what to do, it helps to know each class at least a little bit, so use what I have told you in the future when you encounter hunters such as this. While our pets have a lot of armor and can take a beating, they don't have near the avoidance or health of a tank, so they cannot stand up to elites for very long. Explain this to them if necessary. It might be you were encountering someone such as myself at that level. I didn't do many instances because I didn't have to (hunters are VERY easy to solo with) and I was always scared that I would ***** up a group hardcore. Hopefully you'll be able to help someone become a better player.
In your case, I would have let the hunter's pet die, and then defended myself by saying that 1) the hunter can control, heal, and revive his own pet - you shouldn't have to babysit it, and 2) you babysitting the pet would hurt the whole group - instead of concentrating on taking down targets quicker, you have to try to keep an expendable group member alive, making everything take longer. I'm of the opinion that if my pet dies in an instance, it's my own stupidity. I have complete control over my pet - I tell it what to attack, when to attack, when to come and stay by me, and I can heal it myself - not as well as an acutal healer, but as long as it isn't tanking, my heals are sufficient to account for AOE attacks and such.
So, in the end, don't worry about what you did. You were right. I have been in some bad PUGs, but if you play well, you'll eventually come across other good players in PUGs who you'll add to your friends list and group with later on, negating the need to group very often with bad players.
I have to agree with the previous 2 posters. The only thing that I can suggest in addition to that is to make sure that you establish the ground rules before you start. This way there is no confusion. When I PUG (which I try to avoid at all costs, but sometimes you just have to), I make sure to do the following:
1. Ask to be group leader so I can mark targets, CC, etc.
2. Establish the kill sequence so that everyone understands the order.
3. Ask anyone with pets to make sure the pet taunt is turned off.
4. Ask the DPS to give you X time or Y threat (It really helps to have a threat meter for this) before DPS starts.
As long as everyone understands and agrees to these, I'm willing to tank. If not, then I'd probably leave the group. It sounds harsh, but too many PUGs gone bad have left me jaded ;P
Assuming that you proceed, everyone should be following the rules. In your case, if the hunter was sending his pet in/DPSing too early, warn him the first time. Tell him that you're not going to fight his pet for aggro. If he continues, let the healer know that you're going to let his pet and/or him die the next time he does it. If the healer doesn't send him any heals, he should learn his lesson pretty quickly. If not tell the group it's either you or him. They're more than likely going to be cool with kicking him out of the party than you leaving. DPS is a dime a dozen, while tanks are hard to come by.
Hope that helps.
-Camel
1. Ask to be group leader so I can mark targets, CC, etc.
2. Establish the kill sequence so that everyone understands the order.
3. Ask anyone with pets to make sure the pet taunt is turned off.
4. Ask the DPS to give you X time or Y threat (It really helps to have a threat meter for this) before DPS starts.
As long as everyone understands and agrees to these, I'm willing to tank. If not, then I'd probably leave the group. It sounds harsh, but too many PUGs gone bad have left me jaded ;P
Assuming that you proceed, everyone should be following the rules. In your case, if the hunter was sending his pet in/DPSing too early, warn him the first time. Tell him that you're not going to fight his pet for aggro. If he continues, let the healer know that you're going to let his pet and/or him die the next time he does it. If the healer doesn't send him any heals, he should learn his lesson pretty quickly. If not tell the group it's either you or him. They're more than likely going to be cool with kicking him out of the party than you leaving. DPS is a dime a dozen, while tanks are hard to come by.
Hope that helps.
-Camel
To the OP, yes you did right. If you were having the hunter pull, and he was charging his pet, he wasn't thinking much. If nothing else, one of the universal strategies is the ol' "pull back here" and if the hunter is really savvy he should be using the Zone of Perfect Safety. ESPECIALLY in Uldaman, where several of the pulls require a fair amount of precision to prevent the party from being mobbed.
There is a term for hunters like this, which is "huntards". Whether it is lack of experience or lack of brains, this guy needs to learn to play his class.
As a dpser (at least on my main), you gotta know that the tank needs to get initial aggro unless there's a good reason not to. In your specific situation, as an arms warrior (not prot) this is even more important. You are not going to be as able to generate threat as a prot warrior, and thus smart dps will let you get a couple extra seconds in. Players should be using KTM or Omen or something to make this easier, but if not reminding them of the need for time to generate threat should be part of the initial ground rule chat.
However, the goal to be shot for is that tank gets inital threat and can generate enough threat fast enough that dpsers can start doing thier thing pretty much as soon as the tank "touches" the target (i.e. when melee commences). This makes encounters go faster, put less stress on healer mana, and enables the party to get a few to several pulls in before having to sit and "recharge". Your group was far from this, and any smart hunter should have known this.
Party kick approved :)
There is a term for hunters like this, which is "huntards". Whether it is lack of experience or lack of brains, this guy needs to learn to play his class.
As a dpser (at least on my main), you gotta know that the tank needs to get initial aggro unless there's a good reason not to. In your specific situation, as an arms warrior (not prot) this is even more important. You are not going to be as able to generate threat as a prot warrior, and thus smart dps will let you get a couple extra seconds in. Players should be using KTM or Omen or something to make this easier, but if not reminding them of the need for time to generate threat should be part of the initial ground rule chat.
However, the goal to be shot for is that tank gets inital threat and can generate enough threat fast enough that dpsers can start doing thier thing pretty much as soon as the tank "touches" the target (i.e. when melee commences). This makes encounters go faster, put less stress on healer mana, and enables the party to get a few to several pulls in before having to sit and "recharge". Your group was far from this, and any smart hunter should have known this.
Party kick approved :)
19 posts
ALl of these suggestions are good in my book. Even if it isn't a hunter's pet pulling the aggro, mage, lock, rogue, shaman ect. I will let them tank it, because I always clearly mark and establish kill sequence with marks. So if they attack the wrong target and take 10% that is the fault of themselves. It is easier for me to keep aggro on 2 targets when the 4rd runs off to whoever attacked the wrong one than to run after the pulled mob and possibly loss aggro on another. I just watch for the healer to ensure survival.
I also always tell people, count to 10 then attack, by that time I have enough rage and used Revenge and a Sunder plus TClap. Lower lvl instances most people don't have KTM so I can't tell them give me 4k threat b4 attacking. :*( I have had people leave when I set the rules of the run, but tank and healers are rare so I use that to my advantage and say "If you don't like it, go spend 30 minutes finding another group." That usually shuts them up.
Warriors are the leaders of the group, you take that when you roll one. Unless the tank is newer to the game and doesn't know the instance, tanks have always marked kill sequence/CC.
Boot them if you have to.
So for writing so much, but I know how you feel as I have a 42 Warr.
I also always tell people, count to 10 then attack, by that time I have enough rage and used Revenge and a Sunder plus TClap. Lower lvl instances most people don't have KTM so I can't tell them give me 4k threat b4 attacking. :*( I have had people leave when I set the rules of the run, but tank and healers are rare so I use that to my advantage and say "If you don't like it, go spend 30 minutes finding another group." That usually shuts them up.
Warriors are the leaders of the group, you take that when you roll one. Unless the tank is newer to the game and doesn't know the instance, tanks have always marked kill sequence/CC.
Boot them if you have to.
So for writing so much, but I know how you feel as I have a 42 Warr.
A good way to get good groups. Demand leader. Demand that people use raid marks (skull, x, condom, thong, etc...).
If the group isn't working out, find another group; or replace a dps/healer.
Personal empowerment, through feminist values in tanking!
If the group isn't working out, find another group; or replace a dps/healer.
Personal empowerment, through feminist values in tanking!
Quote:
Personal empowerment, through feminist values in tanking!
About as true as it gets sir.
Gotta be an *** about caring and sharing =P
devioususer wrote:
A good way to get good groups. Demand leader. Demand that people use raid marks (skull, x, condom, thong, etc...).
If the group isn't working out, find another group; or replace a dps/healer.
Personal empowerment, through feminist values in tanking!
If the group isn't working out, find another group; or replace a dps/healer.
Personal empowerment, through feminist values in tanking!
I just tanked Uldaman on my Druid at 42, and there's no reason to use raid marks in that instance. That instance is beyond easy. The final area is a bit more difficult, but only relatively speaking.
I had a similar issue in that the dps kept going all out and attacking from the start, so my strategy to get around that was to feral charge into groups of mobs and just start swiping. I never planned my pulls and often would pull bosses as well as groups of 3-4 elites. We wiped once in the entire run, on the final boss, but only because the dps was focused on killing the elites that add near the end. When I told them to start focusing on the boss after he brings in the elites, we easily finished him.
Had I been playing on my warrior, my strategy would have been to charge into groups of mobs and start thunder clapping.
I know how to tank properly with marking and careful use of CC, as my 70 warrior main is a tank that has started tanking heroics, but you just don't need any of that in Uldaman. It slows you down way too much. I tanked it underleveled with no problems and no strategy.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:58:44pm by Lorimath
crappy hunter. wonder if his pet had growl turned on. probably. How hard was it to get aggro from the pet?
The tank should be in control and dare I say it- party leader in most cases. He needs to dictate where the fight takes place (pull or charge in). Though I have seen crappy tanks that charge at all times, then run backwards. This usually results in additional adds. But if it's a competant tank, he should dictate the action on the field. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm no expert tank (only do it on my druid). The above post seems to advocate charging at all times. I've just seen too many wipes because of adds. If the dps and healing is good, they can overcome this. But in my case, we could not.
This hunter was too used to solo play. As a hunter I turn growl off, and see which target the tank attacks first. I then attack that target. Simple enough. Amazing people can't figure this out.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:29:25pm by thrashering
The tank should be in control and dare I say it- party leader in most cases. He needs to dictate where the fight takes place (pull or charge in). Though I have seen crappy tanks that charge at all times, then run backwards. This usually results in additional adds. But if it's a competant tank, he should dictate the action on the field. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm no expert tank (only do it on my druid). The above post seems to advocate charging at all times. I've just seen too many wipes because of adds. If the dps and healing is good, they can overcome this. But in my case, we could not.
This hunter was too used to solo play. As a hunter I turn growl off, and see which target the tank attacks first. I then attack that target. Simple enough. Amazing people can't figure this out.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:29:25pm by thrashering
thrashering wrote:
crappy hunter. wonder if his pet had growl turned on. probably. How hard was it to get aggro from the pet?
The tank should be in control and dare I say it- party leader in most cases. He needs to dictate where the fight takes place (pull or charge in). Though I have seen crappy tanks that charge at all times, then run backwards. This usually results in additional adds. But if it's a competant tank, he should dictate the action on the field. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm no expert tank (only do it on my druid). The above post seems to advocate charging at all times. I've just seen too many wipes because of adds. If the dps and healing is good, they can overcome this. But in my case, we could not.
This hunter was too used to solo play. As a hunter I turn growl off, and see which target the tank attacks first. I then attack that target. Simple enough. Amazing people can't figure this out.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:29:25pm by thrashering
The tank should be in control and dare I say it- party leader in most cases. He needs to dictate where the fight takes place (pull or charge in). Though I have seen crappy tanks that charge at all times, then run backwards. This usually results in additional adds. But if it's a competant tank, he should dictate the action on the field. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm no expert tank (only do it on my druid). The above post seems to advocate charging at all times. I've just seen too many wipes because of adds. If the dps and healing is good, they can overcome this. But in my case, we could not.
This hunter was too used to solo play. As a hunter I turn growl off, and see which target the tank attacks first. I then attack that target. Simple enough. Amazing people can't figure this out.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:29:25pm by thrashering
I wasn't advocating charging at all times, I was just saying that Uldaman is so easy that you don't need to play all that well to complete it. Feral Charge is different than warrior charging. You don't gain rage, in fact it uses rage. There is no strategic worth in using it to initiate combat. I just used it to initiate combat in that particular run because the dps were so gung-ho that the only way I could hold aggro was by beating them to the mobs and getting in a couple hits before they got there. I've found in PUGs that it is best to avoid stress by trying to work around their limitations. If I get angry at them pulling aggro and tell them to slow down dps, they usually won't... but they might for 2 more pulls and then get bored and revert to their aggro pulling ways. In other words, there was no threat of wiping, so I didn't feel the need to do what I do on my main warrior tank when I'm tanking Heroic Mech, which is carefully explain the pull, mark the mobs, and then ranged pull them to me.
OTOH, in a tougher instance if a hunter was sending his pet into mobs before I got to them, I would pick a different mob to tank. If he said something about it I'd reply "oh, I thought you were being nice and using your pet as offtank," and continue doing what I was doing.
uld didn't seem too bad. only ran it once with a 65 mage tanking :). I was healing. Didn't do the final boss though, she didn't think she can handle him. As she was the only dps (aside from a hunter we were running through). Even at 65 cloth doesn't cut it for tanking lol. I may have went oom healing her for the final boss, but the rest was cake. never went oom.
Boss is level 50, I tanked him at 42 with no problems.
The boss is level 47 (if it was 50 you'd be a wet stain on the Uldaman floor), and even though I seriously doubt you tanked him at 42: Ok.
Xordon wrote:
The boss is level 47 (if it was 50 you'd be a wet stain on the Uldaman floor), and even though I seriously doubt you tanked him at 42: Ok.
Yeah, you're right, he's level 47. I did tank him at level 42, but I should mention that my gear is really nice for my level.
Uldaman is hard because it has a very wide level range and bad pulls. It's not hard compared to some of the later dungeons, just... very poorly designed, and it's considerably harder than anything this side of deadside Stratholme, so it's usually a shock to people who are just leveling up. Factor in the iffy drops and the instance length and... most people just don't bother.
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