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Swords or Daggers?Follow
16 posts
I have been wondering which is better in the long run: using 2 swords, 2 daggers or 1 of each. I know that to use some abilities, such as Ambush and Backstab, you must have a dagger in the main hand. These abilities are nice are deal a lot of damage but I am wondering if swords do more in the long run.
Swords.
Don't even think about daggers until 70.
Edited, Aug 21st 2007 3:34:48pm by MYteddy
Don't even think about daggers until 70.
Edited, Aug 21st 2007 3:34:48pm by MYteddy
16 posts
Thanks. That's what I thought since many rouges I see use only swords.
I'm not gonna get on you about this, but there has been plenty topics about this, I even posted a similar question not too long ago. it would be nice if you and some other people could read through most or atleast some of the topics to see if it answers your question.
anyway, I'll just answer your question and say swords is the way to go. it's the best lvling build by far (imo) until 70 or Outland. sure, ambush/backstab are nifty and useful, and can occasionally one-shot mobs, but it's not worth wasting the time getting behind the target. I like to just run up to mobs, arms flailin' and beat them down with my two swords! sometimes I don't even use stealth (hehe, shame on me xP)
the downsides to daggers are:
-you need to spend the time to get behind the target
-it does nice burst damage, but it's not good for longer combat [ie. you might be able to one-shot a clothie, but it's not the same for a warrior ;)]
-you MUST have a dagger in the mh to use some essential abilities, so if you get disarmed you can't do much; you also cannot use any mh swords
-most abilites require you to get the jump on the target; sure it's always useful to get the jump, even without daggers, but it's more essential with this build
the downsides with swords are:
-not very good burst damage, but it makes up for it in the long run
-cannot use the useful abilities that require a dagger in the mh
-this build relies on speed [ie. most prefer slow swords because of better SS damage, but some also prefer a faster oh sword if they want poisons. speed also makes SnD an essential move]
-most people complain on how this is a boring build
as you can see, swords are better, and most prefer it. yea it's boring, but it chews through mobs a lot quicker. you don't have the moves that require daggers, but you get moves that make up for it later in the tree (ie. Blade Fury, Adreneline Rush, etc.)
most rogue builds are completely on personal opinion, but combat swords is prefered for most rogues trying to lvl. hope that helped, and I hope others with a common question look at this and find some answers.
anyway, I'll just answer your question and say swords is the way to go. it's the best lvling build by far (imo) until 70 or Outland. sure, ambush/backstab are nifty and useful, and can occasionally one-shot mobs, but it's not worth wasting the time getting behind the target. I like to just run up to mobs, arms flailin' and beat them down with my two swords! sometimes I don't even use stealth (hehe, shame on me xP)
the downsides to daggers are:
-you need to spend the time to get behind the target
-it does nice burst damage, but it's not good for longer combat [ie. you might be able to one-shot a clothie, but it's not the same for a warrior ;)]
-you MUST have a dagger in the mh to use some essential abilities, so if you get disarmed you can't do much; you also cannot use any mh swords
-most abilites require you to get the jump on the target; sure it's always useful to get the jump, even without daggers, but it's more essential with this build
the downsides with swords are:
-not very good burst damage, but it makes up for it in the long run
-cannot use the useful abilities that require a dagger in the mh
-this build relies on speed [ie. most prefer slow swords because of better SS damage, but some also prefer a faster oh sword if they want poisons. speed also makes SnD an essential move]
-most people complain on how this is a boring build
as you can see, swords are better, and most prefer it. yea it's boring, but it chews through mobs a lot quicker. you don't have the moves that require daggers, but you get moves that make up for it later in the tree (ie. Blade Fury, Adreneline Rush, etc.)
most rogue builds are completely on personal opinion, but combat swords is prefered for most rogues trying to lvl. hope that helped, and I hope others with a common question look at this and find some answers.
I agree with Sneekky Swords while boring to play with since all you do is pound whatever key on your key board thats binded to SS then after 5 or six hits you mash what ever key you have binded to Eviscerate. Truly boring but with this you basically become one of the fastest grinders in the game... Thats why rogues are so good at gathering skills XD like LW.
haha, i love it when people do this:
Then follow it uo with:
wtf, why do people complain about lazies and then give them the answer...
If you are going to call him out, don't bother helping him. And if you are going to offer advise to lazy people then don't criticize them for asking for it
Edited, Aug 22nd 2007 12:55:24pm by chood
Sneekky wrote:
I'm not gonna get on you about this, but there has been plenty topics about this, I even posted a similar question not too long ago. it would be nice if you and some other people could read through most or atleast some of the topics to see if it answers your question.
Then follow it uo with:
Sneekky wrote:
anyway, I'll just answer your question and say swords is the way to go.
wtf, why do people complain about lazies and then give them the answer...
If you are going to call him out, don't bother helping him. And if you are going to offer advise to lazy people then don't criticize them for asking for it
Edited, Aug 22nd 2007 12:55:24pm by chood
I criticized him to make sure he learned his lesson; basically if I tell him this now, hopefully he'll be smart enough to actually look at topics in the future before asking a common question.
I answered his question because I'm not a jack a$$ who laughs at noobs and tells them to go cry in a corner. I just never came as a person to do those things, so I'll tell them what they did wrong, not to do it again, but I'll show some sympathy and actually give them the answer. Have you ever realized that some people take our advice and do read topics to find answers? But if we don't answer anyone, there won't be any topics to read and find the answer ;) just think about that next time
I answered his question because I'm not a jack a$$ who laughs at noobs and tells them to go cry in a corner. I just never came as a person to do those things, so I'll tell them what they did wrong, not to do it again, but I'll show some sympathy and actually give them the answer. Have you ever realized that some people take our advice and do read topics to find answers? But if we don't answer anyone, there won't be any topics to read and find the answer ;) just think about that next time
i've also heard that combat maces are pretty good. some say that they are a close 2nd to combat swords. it would make sense because most maces are pretty slow and have high damage range for SS. and with mace spec it's like getting a low-CP KS every now and then. let me know what you guys think. . .
Edit: Spelling
Edited, Aug 22nd 2007 1:44:17pm by tehghostlyone
Edit: Spelling
Edited, Aug 22nd 2007 1:44:17pm by tehghostlyone
What about combat fists? The fists from the Arena are AWESOME! Shall I go fists, swords, or maces?
If you actually think that Combat Daggers is good for burst damage and nothing else, you've never played a Rogue at 70.
Just stop posting, honestly, because you're so far off the mark with all of your "advice" that you're actually hindering more than helping.
Just stop posting, honestly, because you're so far off the mark with all of your "advice" that you're actually hindering more than helping.
Sneekky wrote:
-it does nice burst damage, but it's not good for longer combat [ie. you might be able to one-shot a clothie, but it's not the same for a warrior ;)]
-you MUST have a dagger in the mh to use some essential abilities, so if you get disarmed you can't do much; you also cannot use any mh swords
-you MUST have a dagger in the mh to use some essential abilities, so if you get disarmed you can't do much; you also cannot use any mh swords
1.) Daggers can do good sustained damage even at low levels. The biggest issue is that you need to get behind the target ... which is a pain when soloing.
2.) The same applies for sword.
I used 2 swords in my 30's, but I wasn't all that happy with it. I could just be a dw fury warrior :) (actually I do have a dw fury warrior haha). And in STV there was little point in stealthing as there was too much competition for mobs and you lose out.
But now I stealth quite a bit with both my druid and rogue. Pickpocketing isn't that great a moneymaker, but it helps. I save time farming my lockpicking as well.
And I'm not sure what to open up with in stealth when I don't have a dagger. garrotte? yuck. I like big pretty numbers, and I like ambush. And I like the faster attack speed of a dagger in main hand (I use sword off hand). It's easier to get a crip poison proc.
I think I'm sticking with dagger in main, sword in off even though I have 5 points in sword specilization. It just "feels" right.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:12:48pm by thrashering
But now I stealth quite a bit with both my druid and rogue. Pickpocketing isn't that great a moneymaker, but it helps. I save time farming my lockpicking as well.
And I'm not sure what to open up with in stealth when I don't have a dagger. garrotte? yuck. I like big pretty numbers, and I like ambush. And I like the faster attack speed of a dagger in main hand (I use sword off hand). It's easier to get a crip poison proc.
I think I'm sticking with dagger in main, sword in off even though I have 5 points in sword specilization. It just "feels" right.
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 4:12:48pm by thrashering
Quote:
If you actually think that Combat Daggers is good for burst damage and nothing else, you've never played a Rogue at 70.
If you actually say that's what I "think" then you're way in over your head. Who said that's what I think? I wasn't going to get into a whole page worth of information about daggers, all I said is that they're mainly burst damage; to deal effective damage with daggers you have to be behind the target, and that's not always possible. What then? SS damage isn't that good with daggers beause they're mainly fast. I never said they're only burst damage; you're acting like I've never used daggers before. I was simply just saying that because I was comparing to the amount of damage you can get with swords, whether in front or behind the target. If you want more information you say you "know" about me, I used daggers until the mid 40s. Another thing is, my 70 friends have rogues and have tried many specs, and I believe their advice after the many things they've done for me that turned out good. Anything else you say I think?
Quote:
Just stop posting, honestly, because you're so far off the mark with all of your "advice" that you're actually hindering more than helping.
o wow, I say one thing that you misunderstand and you already skip ahead to 'ur a noob, get off this board!' lol this sounds just like most of the wsg matches xD you also seem to mistaken someone's opinion for an arguemental statement.
Edit: o and btw, believe it or not I have played a 70 rogue...with daggers spec. and from my experiences, I still do believe that they have wonderful burst damage, but the damage begins to lose itself if you're not behind the target and the damage isn't the best compared to combat.
Also, of coarse it's going to be different at 70! combat swords is best for lvling, you're not trying to lvl at 70 :P so there's definately going to be a change in how specs work
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 7:38:02pm by Sneekky
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 7:40:10pm by Sneekky
Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 7:40:27pm by Sneekky
Sneekky wrote:
Quote:
If you actually think that Combat Daggers is good for burst damage and nothing else, you've never played a Rogue at 70.
If you actually say that's what I "think" then you're way in over your head. Who said that's what I think?
Sneekky wrote:
it does nice burst damage, but it's not good for longer combat [ie. you might be able to one-shot a clothie, but it's not the same for a warrior ;)]
You think it does nice burst damage, but it isn't good for longer combat. Okay, it may have been unfair for me to say "nothing else", when really, you just meant "longer combat". However, this is horribly wrong, and based on what you've said, it's clear you've never played a rogue at 70 to any extent worth mentioning (playing on your friends once or twice doesnt count, for obvious reasons).
Quote:
However, this is horribly wrong, and based on what you've said, it's clear you've never played a rogue at 70 to any extent worth mentioning (playing on your friends once or twice doesnt count, for obvious reasons).
Yet another thing you misunderstand. I said I take my friends' words, I don't play on their accounts or anything. I have a PTR rogue that I play a lot, to get a hang of how things will be when I get my main rogue to 70. He's a dagger rogue because I plan to switch to daggers when I get to 70. I say daggers are better for burst damage, however that's not the only thing I think. They're awesome stunlockers, and they can deal massive damage if they're behind the target...but if they're not behind the target they can't do nearly as much damage as a combat rogue. IE, if the rogue can't get behind the target, it can use SS, Shiv, the finishing moves, etc. However, combat can do the same, but deal a lot more damage.
Now, I'd like to hear your side. Like I've said countless times, mostly everything people say is opinion, and you keep yelling and saying I'm completely wrong and I have no clue what I'm saying. Well if I'm wrong, what's your opinion? What do you think is right, then?
Sneekky wrote:
Now, I'd like to hear your side. Like I've said countless times, mostly everything people say is opinion, and you keep yelling and saying I'm completely wrong and I have no clue what I'm saying. Well if I'm wrong, what's your opinion? What do you think is right, then?
I think that his "opinion" is that Combat Daggers is often considered to be the highest sustained DPS build for a raid.
In general, through leveling, Combat Swords is accepted to be an easier and faster build (see the second post), though in a good party, Daggers of most stripes can deal very nice damage.
The problem is that you're discussing "Dagger Rogues" when it sounds like you mean "Subtlety Rogues" or "Combat Dagger Rogues who try to PVP." And you're referring to a "Combat" build when you clearly mean a "Combat Sword/Maces" build while ignoring the very high sustained DPS of a Combat Daggers build in a raid setting.
Overall, you seem like you may know what you're talking about, but you're making your points so poorly that no one can tell.
Does no one get my point? Am I saying things wrong or something? Maybe it's because I keep posting at night >.> I'm not discussing combat daggers, or sub daggers, or assa daggers...I'm discussing daggers. I didn't even know this would turn out as an arguement in the first place. I just came in, said combat swords is better for lvling because you can keep sustained damage, and it's a lot easier because you don't have to be behind the target. Then I said daggers is good, but not prefered for lvling because for a lot of it's moves you have to be behind the target, a lot of it's burst damage and it's hard to do the same damage when you can't get behind the target or some moves are on cd, and it's just more complicated than combat swords (swords isn't complicated, but it makes it boring xD.)
also, I wasn't referring to raids..lvling isn't raids. Lvling is instances, and I wasn't exactly referring to them. If I'm talking about instances, then sure, daggers is great; there could be a couple problems if you pull agro off the tank, but being a dagger rogue in a group is a lot easier. I was actually referring to solo play; quests, grinding..one on one pvp sometimes. All I'm saying is that combat swords is better long term damage and it's easier for lving, and daggers is good burst damage but most of the good damage from daggers is from behind the target. I never said it's only burst damage. I never said it's not good in instances. I never said no one can make a good build out of daggers...I mean come on, my friend with nearly the same gear but had daggers and I had swords, got a quest done 2x faster than me. A build is what you make it, and you can become better than what everyone else says if you practice or you're just good at it. Once again, a lot of people use opinions, and the reason this arguement started up was because I gave an opinion and someone started the whole 'ur a noob, ur wrong, get off this board.' go ahead, call me a noob, say I'm wrong, yell at me and keep trying to run me off this board, I'm just here to share an opinion and try to help with the knowledge that others have given me.
And btw, you keep thinking I'm clueless..well I'm not exactly a daggers rogue; I know the upsides for combat swords, and I know how much I improved from back when I was daggers. And yes, like I already said, I used to be sub, but I was also assassination at one time. Before I went combat swords I tried assassination to see if that was any better. Then I went combat swords and it worked a lot better for me. Daggers can work better than combat swords for some people, but me and a lot of other people chose swords, so that's our opinions.
also, I wasn't referring to raids..lvling isn't raids. Lvling is instances, and I wasn't exactly referring to them. If I'm talking about instances, then sure, daggers is great; there could be a couple problems if you pull agro off the tank, but being a dagger rogue in a group is a lot easier. I was actually referring to solo play; quests, grinding..one on one pvp sometimes. All I'm saying is that combat swords is better long term damage and it's easier for lving, and daggers is good burst damage but most of the good damage from daggers is from behind the target. I never said it's only burst damage. I never said it's not good in instances. I never said no one can make a good build out of daggers...I mean come on, my friend with nearly the same gear but had daggers and I had swords, got a quest done 2x faster than me. A build is what you make it, and you can become better than what everyone else says if you practice or you're just good at it. Once again, a lot of people use opinions, and the reason this arguement started up was because I gave an opinion and someone started the whole 'ur a noob, ur wrong, get off this board.' go ahead, call me a noob, say I'm wrong, yell at me and keep trying to run me off this board, I'm just here to share an opinion and try to help with the knowledge that others have given me.
And btw, you keep thinking I'm clueless..well I'm not exactly a daggers rogue; I know the upsides for combat swords, and I know how much I improved from back when I was daggers. And yes, like I already said, I used to be sub, but I was also assassination at one time. Before I went combat swords I tried assassination to see if that was any better. Then I went combat swords and it worked a lot better for me. Daggers can work better than combat swords for some people, but me and a lot of other people chose swords, so that's our opinions.
Well, I'm just gonna jump in with a completely off-track opinion. 
I love using daggers. I use daggers in both hands and I do good damage, imho. I was very worried that maybe I wasn't fairly recently and started paying a lot more attention to it. Now I know that I'm ok.
Just one small example of a time I was paying attention: I was out with a guildie the other day doing a quest together and he commented on how much he liked his new ax and the damage it was doing. I don't normally tell people my damage numbers but I did draw attention to it, wondering if he had noticed or would look at the combat log and see for himself. It was right after a kill and my finishing move hit like 1400 or 1500 and I was impressed with it myself since those big finishing hits just keep getting bigger and more common lately. Anyway, all I said was, "wow, I believe thats the biggest hit I've ever had." A moment later. He exclaimed over it and typed in *looks at puny axe in hand*
I've actually been looking for a good sword for my off-hand for several levels, but I haven't actually gotten one. And now I'm about to get a nice new blue dagger from a ST quest, so I'll probably make that my new off-hand weapon.
I can't tell you about the fastest leveling since that has never been my goal and I havn't leveled another rogue to compare with anyway. I also haven't played end-game content yet. But I think it is worth saying: Go play what you enjoy. I play as an assassin with two daggers and lots of poisons and I have a lot of fun with that.
I love using daggers. I use daggers in both hands and I do good damage, imho. I was very worried that maybe I wasn't fairly recently and started paying a lot more attention to it. Now I know that I'm ok.
Just one small example of a time I was paying attention: I was out with a guildie the other day doing a quest together and he commented on how much he liked his new ax and the damage it was doing. I don't normally tell people my damage numbers but I did draw attention to it, wondering if he had noticed or would look at the combat log and see for himself. It was right after a kill and my finishing move hit like 1400 or 1500 and I was impressed with it myself since those big finishing hits just keep getting bigger and more common lately. Anyway, all I said was, "wow, I believe thats the biggest hit I've ever had." A moment later. He exclaimed over it and typed in *looks at puny axe in hand*
I've actually been looking for a good sword for my off-hand for several levels, but I haven't actually gotten one. And now I'm about to get a nice new blue dagger from a ST quest, so I'll probably make that my new off-hand weapon.
I can't tell you about the fastest leveling since that has never been my goal and I havn't leveled another rogue to compare with anyway. I also haven't played end-game content yet. But I think it is worth saying: Go play what you enjoy. I play as an assassin with two daggers and lots of poisons and I have a lot of fun with that.
Sneekky wrote:
Does no one get my point? Am I saying things wrong or something? Maybe it's because I keep posting at night >.> I'm not discussing combat daggers, or sub daggers, or assa daggers...I'm discussing daggers.
And the central point of your opinion/discussion is that daggers is good for burst dps, when in actuality, a dagger spec is best at long, sustained fights.
Sure, you can have an opinion, but your opinion is based off of completely untrue beliefs such as the ones you seem to harbor, nobody is going to take you seriously.
Quote:
And the central point of your opinion/discussion is that daggers is good for burst dps, when in actuality, a dagger spec is best at long, sustained fights.
...that was NEVER my central point. This whole time I was comparing daggers to swords. It was also about lvling and NOT endgame. Yea, you're right, my main might not be at endgame yet(almost actually), but what does that have to do with anything? Things are completely different at endgame; lvling rogues don't get shiv, or envenom, or deadly throw, and depending on their lvl maybe even some of the moves like mutilate, or ad rush, or shadowstep. Listen, idc who the hell is right by now. This arguement is getting old imo, and I just want this to be over. But before I leave, you keep saying I'm wrong, and that they're the best at long fights. Then why don't you tell me what your definition of a long, dagger-fun filled fight is..that seems to be better than combat swords? Remember, this is a lvling rogue, possibly in it's 30s or 40s, lower if you want to; it doesn't get all of it's pretty endgame rogue moves. I've been defending my opinion this whole time, I'm pretty sure it's your turn now..
The fact you haven't even reach end game is an indication that you need to shut up before more stupid stuff comes out of your mouth.
Daggers do more damage in long fights simply because you maintain the better cycles, or rather have time to setup the cycles.
However, Daggers is more or less dead. Positioning fights hurt it, and Poison immune bosses nils Mutilate, in addition the split stat focus (+ap vs +crit) also hurts the build some more, raid buffs typically benefit Sword Rogues more (read: WF).
I have topped the damage meters with both builds, its just so much easier with Swords than Daggers on any given fight.
Daggers do more damage in long fights simply because you maintain the better cycles, or rather have time to setup the cycles.
However, Daggers is more or less dead. Positioning fights hurt it, and Poison immune bosses nils Mutilate, in addition the split stat focus (+ap vs +crit) also hurts the build some more, raid buffs typically benefit Sword Rogues more (read: WF).
I have topped the damage meters with both builds, its just so much easier with Swords than Daggers on any given fight.
Sneekky wrote:
Quote:
And the central point of your opinion/discussion is that daggers is good for burst dps, when in actuality, a dagger spec is best at long, sustained fights.
...that was NEVER my central point. This whole time I was comparing daggers to swords. It was also about lvling and NOT endgame.
...and in your comparison of swords vs. daggers, you noted that daggers is good at burst damage (and other things that you noted, but trying to shift focus to those doesn't make you any righter), which isn't the point of daggers at all.
...you still haven't answered my question..but idc, leave this poor topic alone, I've got better things to worry about then the use of daggers even though I've been discussing swords and swords are better :P....school's starting so I don't feel like arguing with my spare time -_-
Burst damage isn't the focus for daggers? Since when? These are ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS!! STFU and play how you like to play and thats it, end of story. Remember this is a GAME!!! Every single build has its strengths and weaknesses. If you use each one to every bit of your advantage, then you should be fine. Learn your playing style and be good at what you want to do and you'll be happy. Stop taking this GAME so friggen seriously and stop bashing eachother for something so stupid. Grow up people!
16 posts
Hey, it's me again. Another solution is to make a macro or download an addon that allows quick swapping of weapons (sword + sword to dagger + sword to sword + sword again).
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