How do you do it?
The more elaborate version of the scenario:
Non-heroic Mechanar with the humanoid 3-pulls at the start. 2 casters, 1 melee. Pally tank marks caster for trap and then pulls with a thrown shield. LoS is not too tricky, but the difficulty is compounded by the tremendous effort I have to put into getting the caster off the Pally before my LoS options are gone and before my trap expires. Aimed Shot takes too long...by the time it goes off the mobs are already on the Pally who is not positioned for me to use LoS. Nevermind that I pretty much need a crit on Aimed Shot to generate enough threat to get the mob to focus on me. Level 71 caster mob means if I try to stack hate on my pet with Misdirection and have pet draw mob into trap, my pet is dead before the process is halfway complete. That means more downtime to rez/feed/heal pet.
Seems to me like it was just another ignorant tank/marker, but I don't want to write it off as such if there's something more I could have been doing. I left the group before we had made it to the second room because it just wasn't working. (I actually had another Hunter lined up to replace me, but the tank who had lead to mark suddenly didn't have lead to invite them anymore. While the other Hunter was trying to figure out what was going on, he and I were chatting. I explained why I left (to include me feeling like maybe I just wasn't on my game) and I think he decided not to join the group after all. Two partial wipes and one full wipe in the first room of an instance is usually a bad sign.
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Freeze Trap Caster after Thrown Shield?Follow
In my experience, most tanks have little understanding of how a hunter's trapping techniques work. Using a pull that causes the mob that was marked-to be-trapped to aggro himself, the tank is just asking for trouble. But then, he may not know any better.
He would either have to pull by focusing a ranged attack on one mob, which would allow you to easily pull your mob away, and only after that mob has been contained use his AoE.
OR, a little tougher for you, but doable, would be for him to mark the non-caster as the trapee. Less LOS issues for you, and you can delay setting your trap a bit since you'd had to nuke him to draw him away.
I'll usually give the tank the benefit of the doubt, and if the pulls aren't working, or trapping is becoming difficult due to his technique, I'll explain things to him. If he listens, and things go smoother, we're good. If he refuses to listen (rare, but egos are funny), then I walk. I have little interest in wasting time and money.
Fortunately for me, most of my instance runs are with tanks who know me, and know my strengths and limitations.
What are the odds, something like this just happend to me in Non heroic Steamvaults. I was confused at our group from the beggining, MM/Survival hunter (Me), MM/BM hunter(Guildie), Feral Druid(Another guildie, and good friend of mine), and 2 pallys, one healadin, and 1 tankadin. I'm not used to having 2 of the same class for 2 differant classes in a group before, so i knew something was kind of off. First pull was wierd, pally used their wierd pulling shield shot thing, which he used the whole instance. The spell added threat apparently, because when i have a warrior pull in my groups, 1 distracting shot and the mobs on me, with this, i had to drop 2 distracting and an arcane. So i do my usual trapping method on the first pull, but the stupid pally comes running up towards me and fights near me and my frozen mob. I think, no biggy, i can just move to get in range. Then he AoEs. Thats when i knew this group was doomed to fail, another hint was when he got 2 shotted by the Bog Lord.
But on to my main point, he kept marking for me to trap casters, even though i told him over and over, i cant trap a caster, they just you know, cast at me. But no, he said i could handle it. Caused so many wipes, i was almost more incline to go get new gear instead of pay the outragous repair bill. Eventually i remembered my new little trick, SS(I've been BM since level 10, on all my hunters), but that shield still made it almost impossible.
I guess what im trying to say is, NEVER PuG WITH A PALLY TANK.
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 2:07:57pm by FangXLR
But on to my main point, he kept marking for me to trap casters, even though i told him over and over, i cant trap a caster, they just you know, cast at me. But no, he said i could handle it. Caused so many wipes, i was almost more incline to go get new gear instead of pay the outragous repair bill. Eventually i remembered my new little trick, SS(I've been BM since level 10, on all my hunters), but that shield still made it almost impossible.
I guess what im trying to say is, NEVER PuG WITH A PALLY TANK.
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 2:07:57pm by FangXLR
FangXLR wrote:
But on to my main point, he kept marking for me to trap casters, even though i told him over and over, i cant trap a caster, they just you know, cast at me. But no, he said i could handle it. Caused so many wipes, i was almost more incline to go get new gear instead of pay the outragous repair bill. Eventually i remembered my new little trick, SS(I've been BM since level 10, on all my hunters), but that shield still made it almost impossible.
I used to think that marking casters to be trapped was an act of severe lunacy/ignorance. After poking around here for a while I found that a lot of Hunters (including those who can't silence casters) don't mind having casters marked for trapping, but there are certain conditions that have to be met. There either has to be some LoS feature that can be used to force the caster into the trap, or there has to be some way to split the caster off from whatever group it is with so that a trap can be placed directly beneath it.
In the situation today, I had neither. It would be so much simpler if all a Hunter had to say was, "Please don't mark casters for trapping" and have whoever was marking cooperate. They almost always seem to require an explanation and then they have to force the party to wipe a couple of times before they go along with it.
It's easy. If a Paladin tanks, let him tank all that are affected by the shield. It even makes it easier on him, since the more damage he receives, the more healing he needs, and the more mana he gets. That means he can dish out that much more Holy damage, and get that much more threat. A Paladin tank thrives on Holy damage, and three enemies is almost a minimum for him to truly tank efficiently. Only trap those that aren't affected by the Shield, because he wouldn't have much threat on them anyway.
True, the paladin may not understand hunter mechanics. However, the OP and some replies also don't have a super understanding of paladin tanks. Paladins have NO ranged attack to pull with other than Avenger's Shield (I think that's the name, haven't played my alt paladin in awhile). They also generate their threat through Holy damage. This means, if they have to tank more than one mob they are likely to lay down a Consecrate which deals damage to anything in the area around it. They also generate a TON of threat when they get hit. So basically, if you have a paladin as your main tank and the pull only involves 3 mobs, you don't need to crowd control at all if the healer can keep up with the damage.
From the sounds of it, the paladin didn't know what he was doing. But next time you're in a group with a paladin tank just be aware that they don't have the pulling options a warrior or a druid do, they don't have any skills that can target just one ranged attacker. The shield does only affect 3 mobs though, so my advice would be to trap one of the other unaffected targets if there are more than 3 in the pull. Paladin tanks can be great if everyone in the group understands how they differ from druids and warriors and everyone adjusts their play style accordingly. :D
From the sounds of it, the paladin didn't know what he was doing. But next time you're in a group with a paladin tank just be aware that they don't have the pulling options a warrior or a druid do, they don't have any skills that can target just one ranged attacker. The shield does only affect 3 mobs though, so my advice would be to trap one of the other unaffected targets if there are more than 3 in the pull. Paladin tanks can be great if everyone in the group understands how they differ from druids and warriors and everyone adjusts their play style accordingly. :D
Those pulls can be interesting without a mage to sheep one, counterspell the other. A pally's only way of ranged pulling also causes threat on up to 3 mobs, instead of a warrior's one. Personally, I'd say just leave the mob there in that particular instance (especially if you had a good healer), since the pally will be able to taunt them off any healers that get aggro. I wouldn't really start thinking about CC with a pally until there were 4 mobs (or in heroic, of course).
The marker was a bit... off though. Never give a hunter a ranged anything to trap, it should always be melee imo. Ranged should either be CS/silenced and picked up by the tank, or sheeped.
Be sure to adapt to every group, as well. Heroic Mana-Tombs with all guildies, we marked a mob every pull to be trapped. But for the first half the instance, by the time the mob actually got in the trap, the main target was dead, so it wasn't really worth it beyond keeping a hit or two off the tank (which, granted, in heroics can be quite a bit).
The marker was a bit... off though. Never give a hunter a ranged anything to trap, it should always be melee imo. Ranged should either be CS/silenced and picked up by the tank, or sheeped.
Be sure to adapt to every group, as well. Heroic Mana-Tombs with all guildies, we marked a mob every pull to be trapped. But for the first half the instance, by the time the mob actually got in the trap, the main target was dead, so it wasn't really worth it beyond keeping a hit or two off the tank (which, granted, in heroics can be quite a bit).
With a fried of mine (great pally tank) i had to shoot a mob down to 25% before i was able to get aggro (throw shield+pally AoE thing) so we decided that i would pull with concussive shot and the pally would wait a few seconds before throwing shields to get the others off of me so i could trap.
Stupidly complicated but the safest way to pull with a paladin unless he/she has linken's boomerang.
If i happen to PuG a pally tank, its either he/she uses the boomerang (or any other ranged thing), I pull or i dont trap.
Stupidly complicated but the safest way to pull with a paladin unless he/she has linken's boomerang.
If i happen to PuG a pally tank, its either he/she uses the boomerang (or any other ranged thing), I pull or i dont trap.
Some great replies here...thanks ^^
I was frustrated but I didn't want to immediately jump to the conclusion that my way was teh uber. The way that entrance area in Mechanar seems to work, I don't know that trapping was our best option. We were running into people dying on the minion spawns of the caster B.Elves because everyone was so worried about the tank that they were trying to burn down his mob and leaving the minions up to go after the casters. That's where the "to trap/not to trap" dilemma came in; if I could trap one of the B.Elves like the Pally wanted me to, he'd have one less mob pounding on him and could maybe pick up the minion spawns. I did try trapping one of the minions but my trap was either resisted or immediately broken.
My guildies run Azeroth instances together all the time; they know how one another works and they get along fantastically. If anything, I'll have the largest transition when I start running Outland instances with them. The whole idea of having a pool of 6-10 people to go to when I want to run an instance is shocking to me. Only having a handful of people to teach about the abilities/limitations of my job, and then not having to re-teach them every instance...that idea alone is the only ting keeping me playing right now. Anything else I do in-game is just filler.
I was frustrated but I didn't want to immediately jump to the conclusion that my way was teh uber. The way that entrance area in Mechanar seems to work, I don't know that trapping was our best option. We were running into people dying on the minion spawns of the caster B.Elves because everyone was so worried about the tank that they were trying to burn down his mob and leaving the minions up to go after the casters. That's where the "to trap/not to trap" dilemma came in; if I could trap one of the B.Elves like the Pally wanted me to, he'd have one less mob pounding on him and could maybe pick up the minion spawns. I did try trapping one of the minions but my trap was either resisted or immediately broken.
My guildies run Azeroth instances together all the time; they know how one another works and they get along fantastically. If anything, I'll have the largest transition when I start running Outland instances with them. The whole idea of having a pool of 6-10 people to go to when I want to run an instance is shocking to me. Only having a handful of people to teach about the abilities/limitations of my job, and then not having to re-teach them every instance...that idea alone is the only ting keeping me playing right now. Anything else I do in-game is just filler.
I was tanking and marking in normal SL two nights ago, the situation is utterly familiar.
A pallie will pull with Avenger's shield. This ability jumps to three targets, slowing them down like conc shot for 6 seconds and frontloads a huge amount of threat.
The shield jumps aren't entirely predictable, which makes CC difficult depending on the mob order. It is however worth mentionning that a pallie tank thrives on multi-mob tanking - for classical trash, 3 to 5 hitting on me is my sweet spot between aggro generation and survival, provided the healer keeps up.
What typically screws up my pulls is anything breaking a cluster of mobs - a felguard intercept on one of the mobs not hit by Avenger's shield for instance.
Working with good PUG hunters, the smartest way to peel off a mob to trap we found: hunter at max range, me behind him a couple of steps and positioned so that consecrate won't break the trap. He opens with conc shot, when I have range I use Avenger's Shield. Works well on 4 mob pulls, on 5-mob pulls where AS wasn't predictable we would often improvise, including on that SL run, the amazing hunter would sometimes simply run up to a standing caster and lay a trap right under his feet for great effect.
I think the key here is to communicate - a hunter / pallie tank synergy is an amazing thing, especially when the hunter is good. I know I suck at marking so far, but that one run with a skilled partner has taught me a great deal about it. It's also important to understand the various classes' abilities - pulling / CCing with a pallie tank is different than with druids and warriors, just as there's no equivalent to using misdirection and traps for the greatest effect.
A pallie will pull with Avenger's shield. This ability jumps to three targets, slowing them down like conc shot for 6 seconds and frontloads a huge amount of threat.
The shield jumps aren't entirely predictable, which makes CC difficult depending on the mob order. It is however worth mentionning that a pallie tank thrives on multi-mob tanking - for classical trash, 3 to 5 hitting on me is my sweet spot between aggro generation and survival, provided the healer keeps up.
What typically screws up my pulls is anything breaking a cluster of mobs - a felguard intercept on one of the mobs not hit by Avenger's shield for instance.
Working with good PUG hunters, the smartest way to peel off a mob to trap we found: hunter at max range, me behind him a couple of steps and positioned so that consecrate won't break the trap. He opens with conc shot, when I have range I use Avenger's Shield. Works well on 4 mob pulls, on 5-mob pulls where AS wasn't predictable we would often improvise, including on that SL run, the amazing hunter would sometimes simply run up to a standing caster and lay a trap right under his feet for great effect.
I think the key here is to communicate - a hunter / pallie tank synergy is an amazing thing, especially when the hunter is good. I know I suck at marking so far, but that one run with a skilled partner has taught me a great deal about it. It's also important to understand the various classes' abilities - pulling / CCing with a pallie tank is different than with druids and warriors, just as there's no equivalent to using misdirection and traps for the greatest effect.
My best friend, perhaps, in our guild is our paladin tank - who's pretty much our main tank since she's been at 70 and running dungeons and heroics with us.
So this is very familiar. "Damnit, you generate too much aggro!" I had trouble myself with trapping in Heroic Mechanar on the weekend for much the same reason.
We're still working things out, but we talk about it.
Anyway what can work pretty well is to have the hunter pull first - NOT with concussion shot, I don't know quite why you'd do that. When you pull, as you know, the first mob you hit starts moving before the others. So that can separate out the mobs and the paladin can hit the others with the shield.
Otherwise, if her shield hits my target, I try to activate my AP trinket and blast away with distracting shot, everything I've got.
Or if the paladin is pulling and you've got aimed shot... start winding up for the aimed at the same time as the pull. You'll probably save a second or two of time there.
So this is very familiar. "Damnit, you generate too much aggro!" I had trouble myself with trapping in Heroic Mechanar on the weekend for much the same reason.
We're still working things out, but we talk about it.
Anyway what can work pretty well is to have the hunter pull first - NOT with concussion shot, I don't know quite why you'd do that. When you pull, as you know, the first mob you hit starts moving before the others. So that can separate out the mobs and the paladin can hit the others with the shield.
Otherwise, if her shield hits my target, I try to activate my AP trinket and blast away with distracting shot, everything I've got.
Or if the paladin is pulling and you've got aimed shot... start winding up for the aimed at the same time as the pull. You'll probably save a second or two of time there.
seroster wrote:
Anyway what can work pretty well is to have the hunter pull first - NOT with concussion shot, I don't know quite why you'd do that. When you pull, as you know, the first mob you hit starts moving before the others. So that can separate out the mobs and the paladin can hit the others with the shield.
Concussive shot because it separates the mob more than the other way round - the concussed stays behind while the other mobs get bunched together in a nice close group, ensuring that they will get second and third AS hop. With a normal shot you're only totally in the clear when you pull a mob well in front of the rest - if they're in an arc, crap tends to happen.
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