Alrighty, I'm not a tank and probably never will be. Being a shadow priest and regularly breaking 1000tps, however, I do have an interest in a warrior's ability to build threat :P
I'm basically wondering, on raid bosses (or at least those that hit hard enough for endless rage... god I hate Attumen >.>), what the most effective way to build threat is. It seems to me it's basically the following sequence, once full Sunders are on:
- Shield Block always up.
- Keep Shield Slam and Shield Bash on cooldown - if it comes down to it, Slam is more important than Bash.
- Revenge every GCD possible.
- Every GCD not taken with previous abilities should be Devastate (using it instead of other abilities if Sunder will fall off soon).
- Heroic Strike on every white attack possible.
With offtanks or DPS warriors responsible for Demo Shout and TC.
This seem about right? I'm interested in giving my tank tips on getting his threatgen up higher, since it seems like it's leveled off at a lower rate than what I've heard it should be (and I'm sure it's not his gear).
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 7:29:35pm by lsfreak
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Yep, that's essencially it. Some small changes though:
This doesn't help your threat. Maybe in the sence of keeping Revenge avalable, but even if it doesn't it's still good for survivability and should be kept on CD as you say.
I wouldn't Shield Bash rather than using Devastate. It's not as much threat.
Very true, and most people don't know this.
Demo. Shout, yes. TC, no. TC is a MT move now. In addition to actually dealing more threat than sunder when fully talented (Imp. TC and Focused Rage), it's one of your main AOE aggro forms. Although, AOE aggro isn't really an issue in most raids. They're all mostly about single targets.
lsfreak wrote:
- Shield Block always up.
This doesn't help your threat. Maybe in the sence of keeping Revenge avalable, but even if it doesn't it's still good for survivability and should be kept on CD as you say.
lsfreak wrote:
- Keep Shield Slam and Shield Bash on cooldown - if it comes down to it, Slam is more important than Bash.
I wouldn't Shield Bash rather than using Devastate. It's not as much threat.
lsfreak wrote:
- Heroic Strike on every white attack possible.
Very true, and most people don't know this.
lsfreak wrote:
With offtanks or DPS warriors responsible for Demo Shout and TC.
Demo. Shout, yes. TC, no. TC is a MT move now. In addition to actually dealing more threat than sunder when fully talented (Imp. TC and Focused Rage), it's one of your main AOE aggro forms. Although, AOE aggro isn't really an issue in most raids. They're all mostly about single targets.
Alrighty, so you'd take Shield Bash off the list completely in order to Devastate more? (not really sure where I got that it did more threat than Devastate >.>).
And it looks like TC is better single-target than Devastate as long as your average, unmitigated white is is... erm... 309dmg? That sound right? (compared devastate's threat equal to TC's 644, solved x for white damage). I guess it's actually lower than that, since Devastate's threat isn't entirely dependent on damage while TC's is (so higher armor states closes the gap in Devastate's favor). So in lieu of that, would it be better to keep TC on cooldown as well?
Which puts the list at:
- Shield Block every cooldown
- Shield Slam every cooldown
- Revenge every time it's up
- TC every cooldown if Revenge isn't up
- Devastate when you have a spare GCD
- Heroic Strike every white hit possible
EDIT: Alrighty, doing more quick calculations and I'm realizing it's not a easy as I though comparing TC to Devastate >.> The gap appears to close faster than I thought, though, with higher mitigation. For example, paper doll average of 220 is tied with TC at about 30% mitigation, and higher mitigation favors Devastate. With that in mind, should TC only be used often enough to keep the debuff up?
EDIT2: Did more maths (compared threat and tpr against 0%, 30%, and 60% mitigation, using the warrior in my guild who wasn't in his dps gear :P), and it looks like in most encounters Devastate, TC, and Shield Bash are the three bottom threat generators, depending on mitigation. Devastate and TC are about tied on what I assume most encounters are like, while bosses with lots of armor, Shield Bash is actually better than both (at least until you get decent amounts of 25-man gear).
And, just out of curiosity, would a rage-starved situation (like previously mentioned Attumen) probably look like this?
- Shield Block
- Revenge
- Devastate enough to keep Sunders up
- Shield Slam/Heroic Strike remaining rage (really unsure if HS is better than Devastate or not... not sure how much rage is actually gained with weapon hits, not being a warrior).
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 2:24:54pm by lsfreak
And it looks like TC is better single-target than Devastate as long as your average, unmitigated white is is... erm... 309dmg? That sound right? (compared devastate's threat equal to TC's 644, solved x for white damage). I guess it's actually lower than that, since Devastate's threat isn't entirely dependent on damage while TC's is (so higher armor states closes the gap in Devastate's favor). So in lieu of that, would it be better to keep TC on cooldown as well?
Which puts the list at:
- Shield Block every cooldown
- Shield Slam every cooldown
- Revenge every time it's up
- TC every cooldown if Revenge isn't up
- Devastate when you have a spare GCD
- Heroic Strike every white hit possible
EDIT: Alrighty, doing more quick calculations and I'm realizing it's not a easy as I though comparing TC to Devastate >.> The gap appears to close faster than I thought, though, with higher mitigation. For example, paper doll average of 220 is tied with TC at about 30% mitigation, and higher mitigation favors Devastate. With that in mind, should TC only be used often enough to keep the debuff up?
EDIT2: Did more maths (compared threat and tpr against 0%, 30%, and 60% mitigation, using the warrior in my guild who wasn't in his dps gear :P), and it looks like in most encounters Devastate, TC, and Shield Bash are the three bottom threat generators, depending on mitigation. Devastate and TC are about tied on what I assume most encounters are like, while bosses with lots of armor, Shield Bash is actually better than both (at least until you get decent amounts of 25-man gear).
And, just out of curiosity, would a rage-starved situation (like previously mentioned Attumen) probably look like this?
- Shield Block
- Revenge
- Devastate enough to keep Sunders up
- Shield Slam/Heroic Strike remaining rage (really unsure if HS is better than Devastate or not... not sure how much rage is actually gained with weapon hits, not being a warrior).
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 2:24:54pm by lsfreak
endless rage is a ****** 41 point warrior talent, so to avoid confusion the situation you're referring to is called 'unlimited rage'
http://www.mediafire.com/?4zjgwjv34eg
it helps.
::EDIT::
It's a tanking threat spreadsheet. Virus check it all you want.
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 2:50:43pm by devioususer
it helps.
::EDIT::
It's a tanking threat spreadsheet. Virus check it all you want.
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 2:50:43pm by devioususer
for edit 2, i assume you mean shield slam.
shield slam does the most threat as an ability, then i believe is revenge, and then devastate for 5 point sunders... at least this was the case a patch or two in the past :)
just spam shield block and revenge, shield slam as ofter as you can, between that spam devastate and heroic strike
while TC is a lot more threat/rage on multiple mobs and such, spamming it on single targets isn't really overly effective for rage gen.
tell your tank to pick up some block VALUE items to increase his shield slam damage, thusly causing more aggro.
also, re: heroic strike, in an unlimited rage situation, you should be heroic striking EVERY attack since it does not trigger any global cooldowns and on top of that does quite a good amount of threat.
to imagine how to play a warrior, whenever anything is off cooldown, use it :) [this goes both to dps and prot] you just have to use it in the right order ;)
shield slam does the most threat as an ability, then i believe is revenge, and then devastate for 5 point sunders... at least this was the case a patch or two in the past :)
just spam shield block and revenge, shield slam as ofter as you can, between that spam devastate and heroic strike
while TC is a lot more threat/rage on multiple mobs and such, spamming it on single targets isn't really overly effective for rage gen.
tell your tank to pick up some block VALUE items to increase his shield slam damage, thusly causing more aggro.
also, re: heroic strike, in an unlimited rage situation, you should be heroic striking EVERY attack since it does not trigger any global cooldowns and on top of that does quite a good amount of threat.
to imagine how to play a warrior, whenever anything is off cooldown, use it :) [this goes both to dps and prot] you just have to use it in the right order ;)
Ah, sorry, that shows how much I know about warriors, inadvertently titling the thread after a crappy talent >.>
Actually, I did mean Shield Bash. According to the fairly basic math I did, Shield Bash surpasses Devastate (in the specific gear I was comparing to, that is) around 40% mitigation it looks like. Shield Bash does a static 429 threat (at least according to WoWwiki - damage not effected by armor, else it'll be slightly lower), 5-Sunder Devastate wouldn't quite be 400 threat (of course, Sunder does more than both of these, soo...). In terms of overall threat, it's always Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Heroic Strike, with Devastate, TC, and Shield Bash coming in after that depending on how much armor the boss has.
If you're interested in the numbers I came up with... this was an 11/5/46 build, with mostly Kara pieces. 290 shield block after strength, average weapon hit 265 pre-armor, pre-defensive including talents. Don't take these as 100% accurate though, I may have messed something up >.>
Shield Bash – 429threat – 61tpr
Sunder Armor – 450threat – 37.5tpr
Thunderclap – 579threat – 44.5tpr (30% mitigation, 405t, 31tpr; 60% mitigation 232threat, 17.8tpr)
Devastate – 565threat – 47tpr (30% mitigation 441t, 36.8tpr; 60% mitigation 306t, 26tpr)
Heroic Strike – 886threat – 98tpr (plus lost rage) (30%
mitigation 708t, 79tpr; 60% mitigation 530t, 59tpr)
Revenge – 918threat – 459tpr (30% mitigation, 732t, 366tpr; 60% mitigation 547t, 263.5tpr)
Shield Slam – 1432threat – 84.2tpr (30% mitigation, 1142t, 67tpr; 60% mitigation 851t, 50tpr)
EDIT: And as a shadow priest, I kinda know how the "use it when it's off cooldown" thing goes, except it's slightly more complicated. If VT's not up, it goes up. If VE's not up, same. If SWP's not up, same. If Death cooldown's up, it goes; same with Blast. Fill in remainder with Flays.
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 7:47:38pm by lsfreak
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 7:50:47pm by lsfreak
Actually, I did mean Shield Bash. According to the fairly basic math I did, Shield Bash surpasses Devastate (in the specific gear I was comparing to, that is) around 40% mitigation it looks like. Shield Bash does a static 429 threat (at least according to WoWwiki - damage not effected by armor, else it'll be slightly lower), 5-Sunder Devastate wouldn't quite be 400 threat (of course, Sunder does more than both of these, soo...). In terms of overall threat, it's always Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Heroic Strike, with Devastate, TC, and Shield Bash coming in after that depending on how much armor the boss has.
If you're interested in the numbers I came up with... this was an 11/5/46 build, with mostly Kara pieces. 290 shield block after strength, average weapon hit 265 pre-armor, pre-defensive including talents. Don't take these as 100% accurate though, I may have messed something up >.>
Shield Bash – 429threat – 61tpr
Sunder Armor – 450threat – 37.5tpr
Thunderclap – 579threat – 44.5tpr (30% mitigation, 405t, 31tpr; 60% mitigation 232threat, 17.8tpr)
Devastate – 565threat – 47tpr (30% mitigation 441t, 36.8tpr; 60% mitigation 306t, 26tpr)
Heroic Strike – 886threat – 98tpr (plus lost rage) (30%
mitigation 708t, 79tpr; 60% mitigation 530t, 59tpr)
Revenge – 918threat – 459tpr (30% mitigation, 732t, 366tpr; 60% mitigation 547t, 263.5tpr)
Shield Slam – 1432threat – 84.2tpr (30% mitigation, 1142t, 67tpr; 60% mitigation 851t, 50tpr)
EDIT: And as a shadow priest, I kinda know how the "use it when it's off cooldown" thing goes, except it's slightly more complicated. If VT's not up, it goes up. If VE's not up, same. If SWP's not up, same. If Death cooldown's up, it goes; same with Blast. Fill in remainder with Flays.
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 7:47:38pm by lsfreak
Edited, Aug 18th 2007 7:50:47pm by lsfreak
either you or xordon messed something up quite a lot in devastate / shield bash. this was also discussed in http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=1;mid=118677058013784106;num=33;page=1 thread where calculations were made near the bottom of the post re: devastate and shield bash
Hmm... I counted Defiance in the calculations for both, while he appeared to do it for neither. Did I misinterpret Defiance's wording? I assumed it meant pretty much anything that deals damage - SBash, SSlam, Devastate, HS, and so on.
However, we get the same numbers with Defiance on Shield Bash, but vastly different numbers on Devastate (my 565 versus his 599+Defiance=689). Weird. We did use different weapons (Sun Eater versus King's Defender), but my source also had more than his listed 800AP. I don't think those differences are going to account for an extra 120 threat >.>
However, we get the same numbers with Defiance on Shield Bash, but vastly different numbers on Devastate (my 565 versus his 599+Defiance=689). Weird. We did use different weapons (Sun Eater versus King's Defender), but my source also had more than his listed 800AP. I don't think those differences are going to account for an extra 120 threat >.>
Quote:
Hmm... I counted Defiance in the calculations for both, while he appeared to do it for neither. Did I misinterpret Defiance's wording? I assumed it meant pretty much anything that deals damage - SBash, SSlam, Devastate, HS, and so on.
However, we get the same numbers with Defiance on Shield Bash, but vastly different numbers on Devastate (my 565 versus his 599+Defiance=689). Weird. We did use different weapons (Sun Eater versus King's Defender), but my source also had more than his listed 800AP. I don't think those differences are going to account for an extra 120 threat >.>
However, we get the same numbers with Defiance on Shield Bash, but vastly different numbers on Devastate (my 565 versus his 599+Defiance=689). Weird. We did use different weapons (Sun Eater versus King's Defender), but my source also had more than his listed 800AP. I don't think those differences are going to account for an extra 120 threat >.>
Calculating threat becomes considerably easier if you ignore ALL modifiers, and calculate the base threat... after all, Defiance increases base threat and damage threat, so if 110 is more than 100 it will still be the same once you throw in Defensive Stance and Defiance. Shield Bash also lists as 230 threat plus 63 damage on zero-mit targets, not the 490-odd you came up with.
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