I will admitt it's frustrating.Follow

Although I don't think this is the weakest the rogue class has ever been, I will tell you what I've seen since BC.

Several "changes" were made to the class at the start that looked just absolutely astounding. It isn't hard to see those that these changes soon showed their true color.

1.) Fleet Footed- This talent is still pretty good due to its movement impairing effects reduce chance. I used to think it would be astounding though, due to the run speed increase. It meant that we would never be kited by someone just simply walking the opposite way again. But then alas, look what happened. Every class has access to a movement increasing talent: there's even a new enchant that makes it even more ridiculous. Feral Druids get a +25% movement speed bonus from equips and are unable to be kited by just simply running the other direction, and it annoys me to no end that we don't have something similar. So, what seemed to be a really promising talent became pointless: your increase is the same as everyone elses, making you still kiteable by just simply running the opposite direction. I have no problems being kited by curse of exhaustion, or hunters with their snares or even rogues with crippling poison. That's a fair kite. When people (namely locks) just drop what they're doing and run the other way it hurts. If blind is down you're done for as you can't close distance and they can keep hurting you via dots or whatever else they want. Throw in paladin blessing of freedom in arena combat (even though it's getting nerfed soon thank god) and it's just plain stupid.

2.) Deadly Throw- Another ability that looked great but soon turned lackluster. In the incredibly rare chance that I do get the opportunity to interrupt a spell with it, the projectile moves too slow to be of any use on faster spells (lesser healing wave and flash of light to be exact). Even in a normal pvp situation where you're just trying to use it to slow someone down, it's nowhere near enough. You touch a mage and instantly are reduced to a pathetic movement speed: we throw something at them and they only take a 50% decrease. Deadly throw needs to root or slow them down more or something. Basically giving up combo points for a ridiculously stupid low damaging move with only a 50% movement reduction just usually isn't worth it. You're usually slowed by another movement impairing effect when you have the option to use this anyway, and yours is still weaker than theirs. The fact that you can't even use it if you get tagged when you have no combo points is yet another factor that makes this ability just stupid in the long run.

3.) Mutilate- I love mutilate. I love the CP generation and everything about it. What I don't love is how much people can ignore it. Resilience may very well one day be the death of this build, as it takes you longer and longer to kill foes (mainly because this build's damage is dependent on mutilate crit damage whereas other classes still throw strong non-crits of their abilities anyway) as resilience increases. Perhaps if they gave you a talent that ignored resilience instead of armor, or changed expose armor to do this, this might not be as big of a problem. As it is now, fights last longer and longer and that's a big bad sign for a mutilate rogue. Resilience has gotten so bad that it even has people speccing combat for pvp, has rogues acting more like bad warriors than rogues. It breaks my heart knowing that I may one day join them.

4.) Multiple Targets- Though not a talent, this does still bother me. Arena pvp requires one to be able to switch targets. For instance, a mage could get stupid and line of sight his healers. In that brief second, you need to jump from whoever you're on straight onto the mage. However if you do that, you'll have to start over from scratch: no combo points and no poisons on the target. By the time you've sucessfully switched targets your opportunity has passed. This is unlike the warrior class: they can be hurting someone badly and then switch at their own will, not stopping in damage for a second. Imagine warriors if you lost all of your rage everytime you switched targets, and that would be about what it's like for a rogue.

I will not say the class is broken because I don't think it is. I do think however that it has it harder than most, at least for the time being. So, I think the rogue class needs the following "additions" to become less of a "hard mode" class:

-Either make deadly throw root instead of slow or make it a move that is "casted" with the same cast time as throwing a knife but keeping all its original properties. Damage isn't an issue: it's meant to be a range closer, not a strong ranged ability.

-Some form of an intercept. The rumored sprint changes would fit this bill, but one can only hope that becomes the truth.

-Combo points saved to the rogue instead of saved to target. Make this a new talent even if you feel it is too overpowered.

-A -stun resist talent. Every class in the game has access to stun resist now, and since stuns are our best weapon it is quite annoying watching most of them resist.

-An ability to combat resilience: perhaps change expose armor to reduce resilience instead of armor.

Again, the part that I love about the rogue class is the challenge. It's just becoming very challenging indeed whereas I feel like most classes get it easier and easier.

Edit: Said 30 where I meant 50

Edited, Aug 17th 2007 8:53:56pm by Shaolinz

Edited, Aug 17th 2007 8:55:54pm by Shaolinz

I was under the impression that he meant a talent to bypass the stun resist options that other classes have available to them now. Since everyone can resist our stuns we seemed somewhat gimped without a way to circumvent the resists.

Like if everyone was buffed to resist shadow...locks wouldn't be happy.

That was my impression but the language is a little confusing to me.

hey saho, my 2 cents on each point you made

1: fleet footed: i hide it lackluster as you say myself, but yes... the original concept was to make us have a talented way to catch someone in pvp... but umm cough BOARS SPEED cough? 2 talents points in this, or have 3 more stam for the other boot enchant in pvp? make it 10%, and make it stack with other sh*t(or better yet, keep it as is, and make it reduced snare effects duration by 40% or something.... similiar to the anti-kick caster epic necklaces)

2: deadly throw: ive crit 1 point throws for bout 800, with a high crit of 1780... so id say its not ridiculously low damage... but used right its a great addition to our ******** if you cant catch up enough to shiv after a DT (interrupt or not) then you got a smidge of a problem to begin with... its not hard to interrupt, just requires anticipation

my opinion? revise throw! give it a cooldown equal to the length of the movement speed reduction! then change "imp kick" to "imp kick+DT" and give em BOTH 2 second solid silence (maybe make the silence effect static to DT, and get the glove ability for pvp "your expose armor now reduces resilience by 12 per combo point")... that would add a LOT of use imo, and it woudl finally make me WANT imp kick (worst talent ever... i have never taken it and liked wasting the 2 points for it... that change would make it a mandatory to me) giving it a CD prevents 10 seconds of snare+spell lock, so thats re-balances it

3: mutilate: no comment, @#%^ daggers ;)

4: mutliple targets: making combo points 'to the rogue' would break 2v1 combat in our favor, easily.... maybe instead add a talent to the sub tree "your combo points dont disappear when you generate a combo point on a different target" (possibly a tier 6-7 ability, as part of a sub tree re-vamp to make it the pvp tree again)

as to your lil notes at the end

-DT is fine as is... the silence effect i think is its weak point, but read up on my idea for a good change, point#3

-i like sprint as is myself, but we need more mobility... making a 100 energy cost personal BoFreedom could fix this? (100 energy: instant cast: removes all roots and movement impairing effects, makes ya immune for 6 seconds.... for this duration you move at 120% speed, 1 min cooldown (can be prep'd))

(another awesome change for the sub tree? tier 9 ability? @#%^ shadowstep?)

-minus stun resist chance? like penetration? that woudl be weird, and difficult to do... maybe just make imp KS have (increase dmg 2/4/6% and reduces chance this will be resisted 4/7/10%?)

if CS is your spot, another sub tree re-vamp (tier 3: reduce chance effects from your opener moves will be resisted by 5/10%) that helps the silence resist on garrote, or a sap resist even maybe?

-expose armor note, i agree, note my point #3 :)

---------

rogues need some work, but different ways then what every rogues want would give us our options, make sub VIABLE again, and not cause a 'rogues are op' flood

Edited, Aug 18th 2007 8:01:08pm by mongoosexcore

No no, MINUS stun resist talent. Like a talent that negates your enemy's stun resist.

I've been a lurker in this forum for a while, but this thread caught my eye. An intelligent point of view instead of the usual WTF DEY NERFED US ROUEGS AND NOW WE ARE TEH SUCK post.

I think it is interesting that a lot of rogues hate on daggers when they were supposed to be OUR weapon to begin with. I personally love mutilate. Great CP generation, equal or greater damage than backstab, not to mention all of the great talents in that tree.

I do agree that the rogue class needs some revision. We are a crit reliant class and resilience is completely killing us. Spec combat and spam white damage? No thanks, What are we now squishy furry warriors?

I think that the suggestions and comments that Shoalinz made are completely valid, we have basically been handed some cool but overall crappy abilities since BC. The fact is that most other classes require very little talent to crush us in PVP. Warriors are nearly impossible to kill if they are stacked in Gladiator gear, I'm sure half of them are just watching TV and spamming 2 or 3 attacks while we maniacally run around trying our best to get them to 50% before we die. I am under the impression that there should be no anti-class class. I'm sorry but all geared Warriors should not be able to crush all geared rogues, that's just silly. Espescially given that we are no longer the uber anti-caster class. Most other classes can just kite us to death, and does anyone find it odd that a warlock in full PVP gear has more armor than us? WTF IS UP WITH THAT. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that, but even then casters are no longer the squishy classes that they used to be.

Fleet Footed is fine as it is. Anyone that doesn't think so probably doesn't understand the rationale behind it.

It's the same movement speed increase as a run speed enchant, in addition to giving you 10% snare/root resistance. This allows you to socket 18 stam in your helm and get 12 stam on your boots, rather than Boar's Speed.

I mean, honestly, looking at your armory, you really don't know what's going on with itemization. You realize that in every socket you have an orange gem you have crit/AP, which is actually worse for your build than 8 Agi gems would be?

Other than that, I like Mongoose's changes suggested for DT, but most of what you all are looking at aren't fixes for the class.

its also worth noting that fleet-footed stacks with the +crit/snare/root resist meta gem. 15% chance to resist everything from a nova to a piercing howl is pretty nice. i believe with CloS up that gives you a 100% chance to resist any root effect cast by a mage or druid, and any magical snare (imp wing clip, CoEx).

good call, i guess its 90% so theres always that chance... like how theres that chance of flat-resisting a death coil

skill coil
cloak of skill

just think they took the 'skill' moves and make em have luck chance to em?