I was talking last night with another rogue in my guild, and he mentioned that he was thinking about trying out a "Shiv" build. We started talking about it a bit, and while he seemed excited to give it a try, I was very skeptical at the damage of such a build, not to mention the viability outside of a raid setting.
I would think that such a build would look something like this. I imagine that you'd use Deadly on the OH, and a fast enough dagger to stack those up as quickly as possible. Then, you'd probably rotate between SnD, Rupture and Envenom.
Still, I seriously doubt that such a build could even come close to the damage of deep combat builds, or even Mutilate builds. Plus, if you ever encountered a boss that was immune to poisons, you'd be whamboozled.
Any thoughts?
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Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
This build has definitely been thought of before. In fact it has been tested by a decent amount of people looking for new viable builds (when everyone was still hitting 70). While the concept isn't bad, the overall DPS of the build is lack luster. There is a point in gearing (early level 70 greens/blues) where it can be viable for solo work, but nothing more. You have to remember, shiv doesn't scale well at all. Even with DW spec you are only getting 75% weapon damage on that offhand. The other component of shiv damage is poison which doesn't scale at all. The bottom line is: shiv sucks at moderate to high gear levels (damage wise). It's useful, but shouldn't be used for anything other than applying poison or generating a few cheap CP here and there. I know there are a lot of combat dagger rogues who open up on a raid boss with a few shivs to get into their SnD cycle faster.
Also, just to note, shiv is a normalize attack just like backstab or SS. It's actually better to shiv with a fast sword like latro's than it is to shiv with a fast dagger. The sword will get the 2.4 speed multiplier but the dagger will only get 1.7.
Also, just to note, shiv is a normalize attack just like backstab or SS. It's actually better to shiv with a fast sword like latro's than it is to shiv with a fast dagger. The sword will get the 2.4 speed multiplier but the dagger will only get 1.7.
shiv is just a daggers helper move if used for primary damage
how so?
instant offhand, and shiv while waiting for gouge cd... or to get to a faster KS
the latros sword is golden for this kinda build, but any non-dagger arena offhand is just as good, albeit harder to get
1.5 speed or faster = a harder hitting hemo, due to the +190ish (more if talented) damage of the instant poison
is it horrible? nah
but i tried it before... and its never quite good enough, other then to lazy damage... combat daggers it helps a bunch as that build solos like total **** ^_-
how so?
instant offhand, and shiv while waiting for gouge cd... or to get to a faster KS
the latros sword is golden for this kinda build, but any non-dagger arena offhand is just as good, albeit harder to get
1.5 speed or faster = a harder hitting hemo, due to the +190ish (more if talented) damage of the instant poison
is it horrible? nah
but i tried it before... and its never quite good enough, other then to lazy damage... combat daggers it helps a bunch as that build solos like total **** ^_-
I will ask my buddy, but we were looking at a Shiv spec with a rogue in high 1900's to 2000's in 2v2 and 3v3.
You put instant offhand, AR, and go to town essentially.
I'll see if i can't dig up the guys profile, if he is even Shiv still.
Raid viability, 4/10
PVP/Arena 8/10
You put instant offhand, AR, and go to town essentially.
I'll see if i can't dig up the guys profile, if he is even Shiv still.
Raid viability, 4/10
PVP/Arena 8/10
Shiv was originally given to us to work somewhat like the hunter's wing clip. You don't see hunters (well, good ones) trying to make a DPS build out of wingclip do you?
I doubt any kind of build would ever come to fruition.
I doubt any kind of build would ever come to fruition.
I've done the math on this several times when it cropped up, and it always boils down to one simple fact.
Shiv does not scale. Yeah, it's cheap, but the damage is never going to amount to anything. Poisons won't crit (well, not often enough to matter). AP doesn't increase poison damage. You get 25% off the top of any bonus damage you do get from crit and AP that would be applied to Shiv. You get better CPs from Mutilate, and better damage/energy ratio from pretty much any other attack I can think of. There are no talents that increase Shiv base damage (aside from DW spec).
The only time I've ever really used Shiv is spamming it for Deadly Poison charges to Envenom on a Prot warrior. I imagine it would be useful on any kind of high armor target that you need to kill in PvP, but that's about it.
Shiv does not scale. Yeah, it's cheap, but the damage is never going to amount to anything. Poisons won't crit (well, not often enough to matter). AP doesn't increase poison damage. You get 25% off the top of any bonus damage you do get from crit and AP that would be applied to Shiv. You get better CPs from Mutilate, and better damage/energy ratio from pretty much any other attack I can think of. There are no talents that increase Shiv base damage (aside from DW spec).
The only time I've ever really used Shiv is spamming it for Deadly Poison charges to Envenom on a Prot warrior. I imagine it would be useful on any kind of high armor target that you need to kill in PvP, but that's about it.
Quote:
The only time I've ever really used Shiv is spamming it for Deadly Poison charges to Envenom on a Prot warrior. I imagine it would be useful on any kind of high armor target that you need to kill in PvP, but that's about it
Whenever I'm fighting mobs that disarm I equip something like instant/deadly in offhand. If you get disarmed, just spam shiv for combo points & some extra damage.
Shiv also can't be dodged, useful against Rogues with evasion up or when someone uses one of the dodge trinkets. Also useful if you run across a stationary or mounted rogue, garotte>shiv crippling> back off & stealth & cheapshot for an easy 4/5 combo points.
Edited, Aug 16th 2007 2:03:49pm by Flubgaurd
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