To all those ppl getting discouraged with their rogue - ReadFollow

Alright Theo, now you're talking.

A percentage-based EA has considerable merit. In fact, is there anything wrong at all with that suggestion?

Your other suggestions would be nice, too.

And if I might add a few:

Add blind in with sap on dirty deeds so it gets increased range, and change blind to 'have a chance' to break on damage.

Are you ******** me?!


MAYBE... Just, just maybe... they should, *gasp* decrease the energy cost on both too!?

20yds(maybe 15) on blind is way more than enough.

1) I already explained what we need.

2) Maces are the best because we don't need burst damage in PvP; we need control, and mace spec allows us that.

The suggestion that has been repeated the most is having an -out of stealth- shadowstep but without the 20% damage bonus. Possibly also root the target for 1 or 2 seconds on top. This would work like a warriors intercept, the difference is that we would be teleported BEHIND the opponent, rather than in the direction that we faced at the point of activation.

Of course, a change like this needs to be ecological, seeing as it would imply some major balance issues in smaller scale pvp. But let's leave shadowstep discussion elsewhere.




It's really simple. The rogue class is designed around Burst damage (= critting with instant attacks) and control.

This is why we got long - but powerful - cooldowns and it's why many of our talents are designed around increasing critical hits and critical hit damage.

Rogue philosphy summed up: Kill your opponent with fast and controlled bursts of damage.

Then TBC (and later arena) came and everything changed. Blizzard had a vision that WoW PvP should be all about longer fights and more survivabilty. Naturally, this philophy had severe implications for the rogue class, seeing as it was in direct opposition to the whole IDEA behind the rogue class.

Hit point pools rised astronomically and the stat resilience was introduced. Resilience is a stat that DIRECTLY mitigates crit damage and crit chance by very large amount.

Furthermore, the control that the rogue has was bound to certain abilities with a fixed amount of "control value". What do I mean by this?

Cheapshot - 4 seconds stun.
Kidneyshot - 6 seconds stun

Four seconds of stun allows only a certain amount of time where you can apply your abilities. Using such a static amount of control has a VERY different outcome on a player with 5000 HP (pre-tbc geared opponents) versus a player with 12000 HP (TBC geared opponents).

You see my point? As survivability scaled BIGTIME with the expansion, the control of the rogue stayed the same. All along the BURST of the rogue took a step BACK in that regard (with resilience completely killing crit builds).

Right now we have a rogue who
1) Can't use their crits
2) Struggling to use their controls

Blind used to be a reliable control ability as well. The new PvP trinket changed that as well.

Sap used to be a reliable control ability as well. The new PvP trinket AND the new PvP environement (Arena - which is VERY stealth unfriendly) changed that as well.

What is a rogue left to do now that he lost his ability to burst and control?

Sustained damage.

Which leads me to the answer to your question: Combat builds.

Combat fist builds allows for crits - which as stated above is kinda gimped.

Combat swords allows for extra attacks - which is good.

Combat maces allows for extra control - which is invaluable.

Which is why combat maces is now the prefered builds in resilience-infested pvp environments (currently, which what WoW top PvP is).


In summary:
TBC and the many changes that followed (arena, trinket change, resilience) destroyed the the original idea behind the rogue class. Change is good, but Blizzard "forgot" to change the rogue class along with the game and adapt their abilities along with the new conditions. Which is why rogues are currently sub-par warriors in high-end PvP battles.

Many thanks flagermusen for the insight you gaved me :D

Now i will stil remain a optimist about rogues. Took my time to read about the frost mage and can understand why its a nightmare. Stil there must be a way to handle them. Either we rogues has to find a weakness we can use against them or we need to find alternative ways of using our skills and talents we have.

QQ.

If your struggling in PvP then you need to get out of outland greens and start playing well.

Do you even play a rogue? All I see in your sig is that you play a shaman. Kindly sod off, since you don't have any authority to talk on a class you don't play.


That would be ungodly overpowered. 15 seconds of spell immunity wouldn't help us against warriors, but casters wouldn't have a chance against us at all.

Hi, I'm a rogue with 10k HP and ~200 resilience with 1200 AP in my PvP gear.

Kindly shut the @#%^ up and gtfo my forums. You're a 45 shaman; your opinion doesn't count for sh*t.

(ding 2700 posts btw)

Edited, Aug 24th 2007 8:58:52am by Theophany

Wrong post sorrry.

Edited, Aug 25th 2007 8:45:56am by Flubgaurd

I find it quite amusing that you clearly "see the big picture", yet you're stilling yapping about random 1 on 1 encounters.

It's hard to take you seriously ^^

And for english:

School is a magnificent place to start.

Edited, Aug 25th 2007 12:54:57pm by Flagermusen

Theres nothing wrong with having issues 1v1, I just don't appreciate having to rely on the other player making mistakes for some of the fights, this doesn't mean CD blowing.

Anyways, yes Rogues have gotten harder to play in PvP although not wholly impossible like the OP is making it. The main problem is our talent trees where we really can't go anything but deep Combat or deep Assassination. The main issue is with how weak our Subtlety tree is in terms of complementing our other trees, because right now its really a trashy tree with very few gems.