To all those ppl getting discouraged with their rogue - ReadFollow

A little harsh, but /nod.

"HI2U GAIZ, I HVAE A ROUEGE LVL 23 AND PVP IS EZ!! I KIL ALL MAGICENS AND DEMONDUDES WITH 2 HIT!! MEYBE U JUST L2P!? LOLOLZ JEUST MAI OPININEN! BB!"

But then people like you and me wouldn't be able to post there.

Make it 1600, because some people actually know what they're talking about at 1600.

Everybody just wants to win everyone, everywhere, everytime.

Rogues are very strong 1v1 (and even 2v2 and 3v3) from lvl 1 to high-end arena.

How many prot warriors, holy priests, enh shammies, balance druids, (etc. etc.) can say the same thing? Different classes and builds have different strengths and purposes.

Duh. You all know this. But then you whine about how nobody wants you in 5v5. 1 rogue at Blizzcon? How about 0 Druids. Only 2 hunters and warlocks (and we all know they're OP, right?).

Cry-babies.

"...we're subpar in 5v5"--you both made my point and missed it.

Dry your tears so you can read my post. Or use MS Sam to listen to me reiterate the point below:

There is only one aspect of pvp in which rogues are not a force to be reckoned with, and that is arena 5v5.

Yet you whine like there's no point to playing a rogue anymore.

You want to be a bigtime gankster, be untouchable in raid dps, win all duels, and basically just rip through everybody (1v1 to 100v100 bring it on!!) like there's no tomorrow, amirite?

Blizzard needs to implement a special arena-only toolbar for all the whiners such as yourself; it would be a 'target dies instantly' insta-cast on a 1s cooldown. That way all classes and specs would be perfectly balanced and able to compete in any pvp setting.

QQ

Huh? This quote says more about you than it does about rogues.

Translated: You hate being ganked by rogues. Fair. But I could care less if my rogue sucks in World PvP. What's the point anyway? World PvP is dead, non-existant, difunto, hinscheiden, kaput, finito and so on.



Yes of course we do. Why else bring a rogue to a raid? We bring !ZERO! utility, and strains the healers too. We NEED to have better dps than the ranged classes in order to justify our raid spot.


Uhm, wrong forum. Warlocks ---------> that way.

We are one of the weaker classes 1v1 in TOP pvp. Not scrub pvp, not green pvp, not 39 pvp, not AFK-pvp. But TOP pvp. Meaning FULL S2 gladiator gear, Proper PvP specced and a skilled player behind the keyboard.

Yes you heard it first here. Rogues are WEAK 1v1 where it counts.



We just want to be a viable class in top rated arena. Is that really too much to ask?

PvP is revolving around the arena now, so giving us the title as "WURLD PVP KINGZ0RZ" is just buying a pig in a poke.

We know other classes also needs some love (hunters and druids in particular) but that isn't an argument to asking for a fix where a fix is due.

According to your logic, we'd be better off stop asking for a fix/buff to rogues and thus leave ALL classes broken, instead of fixing where fixing is needed, amirite?

Yea, I disagree with that. Personally I don't think there's a single class in WoW that is worried about rogues at lvl 70.

Are there some classes that rogues can handle? Yes.
Are some of those classes easier than others? Yes.
Are there classes that are terrified of rogues like they once were? Not in my opinion.

Every time this subject comes up, there's a flood of "L2P" comments.

Look at rogues on BG leaderboards. In any bracket before Outlands, rogues made up a nice percentage of the top of the leaderboard. Now finding a rogue in the top 10 is fairly rare. Think that KBs aren't an accurate indicator? Sort by damage and you'll get an even clearer picture. The suggestion that rogues bemoaning a drop in effectiveness are simply unskilled players either suggests that a huge portion of the rogues that played the game well up until lvl 60 suddenly became incapable of playing their class well once they hit Outlands, or at the very least suggests that all the people that play other classes suddenly got much better while rogue players idled.

Regardless of my skill level, the rogue's effectiveness has not scaled at the same rate as other classes. It's demonstarted in every measurable that PvP provides.

Every Spec? No.

Every class? Yes, sort of.

Personally, I think an ideal world would be every class, assuming equivalent skill and gear, evenly matched. If class A and class Z are both played by equally skilled players, and have equal gear, the outcome of their battles would be relatively equal.

Since the likelihood of developers ever being able to accomplish perfect equality is remote, I think another viable approach is the rock paper scissors type of equality. Every class gets a few classes that they will generally have an advantage over, assuming all other things being equal.

There shouldn't be classes that are consistently at a disadvantage in BGs. One of those classes used to be the warrior. It was rare they excelled in BGs without a pocket healer and/or uber gear, and often not only did they not top the boards, they outright sucked. IMO Blizzard did a pretty decent job changing that recently. It took them a long time, but they have implemented small changes to the warrior class in a way that a properly specced warrior can enjoy BGs, and a well-geared, skilled warrior can tear it up.

For me, it's not so much about wanting class X to be really good. It's about wanting to see all the classes have somewhat even footing.

So we shouldn't be pissed because our class is horrible in the Arena setting which Blizzard balances classes around?


If you're getting frequently killed by rogues, you must be a really bad hunter. Here's a hint: don't try to melee with them.


Somebody had to say it. "OMG OP!"

Go play in traffic, you ignorant ****.

Alright! Another 'stfu you ignorant ****' poster! This thread is fun again.

Guru Demea, pop-quiz (and maybe Theo can help you with this):

Q1) If Blizz is balancing classes around arenas (at least in terms of pvp), should all classes have both a pve spec and a pvp spec (remember not long ago the whole issue of rogue viability in raids)?

Q2) Where is pvp balance most important: battlegrounds at the various brackets, >1900 5v5 arenas, >1900 3v3 arenas, or >1900 2v2 arenas? Or should Blizz base it on where-ever the majority of players spend their time pvp'ing?

Q3) Would you be happier if they had a 9v9 arena that had to have every class represented?

Bottom-line (for those that don't have Grollog's ability to think things through): thanks to rock/paper/scissors, certain situations and setups will be more favorable than others. Hence the spectrum of pvp environments that Blizzard has implemented.

Rogues may be gimped in high-end 5v5, but they're not exactly dead-and-gone elsewhere, despite what some whiners here would have you believe. Take what you can get and hope they make you viable everywhere, but don't sob and whine when you finally get some 5v5 utility only to find something else nerfed in order to balance it.

BTW Demea, I used to play on SWC, I'd expect a little more from someone on that server--not to mention you're a Guru here, and you posted like that??

1) Yes. Though multiple builds should be viable for arena and PvE.

2) 5v5, especially if Blizz is trying to get serious about WoW being in the WSVG.

3) No. That would require much less strategy. As it is we get 3 DPS 2 healer or 4 DPS 1 healer teams and it's interesting to see the strategy teams are using, because even at high ratings people use different strategies. Rogues would be useful in arena--as useful as warriors--if we didn't have mobility issues and we had some utility. As it is, a warrior is better because they can use Commanding Shout to give everyone another 1k+ HP, and they have a 15 sec Intercept.

Theo, thanks for the response. I apologize for my earlier hostility towards you.


Q1) We've all heard the pve group complain that Blizz is making changes that affect them based on pvp, which they feel is unjust. i.e. the warlocks complaining that a more fragile fear would hurt them pve. Granted, many of the complainers are just whining, but what can you do? I'm with you on the whole multiple builds thing; perhaps the sub tree could be beefed up more for utility, and up combat's damage (at least imo, rogues need to return to being the undisputed dps champs).

Q2) Points-wise that seems a sensible choice. This would be a hard one to get consensus on, though. And this might be where some of the slowness on Blizz's part is coming from. Strengthening rogues in 5v5 might imbalance them in the others, where I personally feel rogues are mostly balanced.

Q3) I'm with you on #3, though it seems like it might be fun.

wow....sounds like alot of fun here...im in!! :D

To start simple out...Arena sucks...i hate it, its annoying. Why? Because all people think that they can be the best and they will attack/flame anyone who says anything against them. I mean just look at you now people...this is not the rogues from alla i used to read there post about...it is a big time kindergarden where kids is complaing about who got the smallest and biggest size of cake.

I only have one rule when it comes for a duel: No potions..Which means that i will use any other dirty tricks i have to win a fight and im a engineer. Sounds unfair?? That is my point, Im a rogue and rogues has never been fighting fair. Dont believe me? Then start reading some books and learn from it or try play some good rpg games. In a arena, most of the engineer stuff i can make is useless because they dont allow it. Sure its because to make the fights a little more fair..otherwise warlocks would be able to use soulstones and healthstone..and all the other classes could use there things. But stil it sucks.

One rule of thump an old Diablo 2 player told me was that every class can be beaten, you just need to how to do it. So dont come and say to me that a well played frost mage cant be beaten...With that attitude its no wonder why you lose to a frost mage.

Now about rogues...how should blizz improve them?? give them some debuffs...i dont care that i cant buff my group up, why? Because im a rogue thats why.

That is all for this mad one. Ever the optimist

edit changed: thx MYteddy for correcting some of my bad spelling, will try to do my best.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2007 8:50:35am by Livies

I'm gonna touch on that bolded part here in a second. You'll get a kick out of it.



Warlocks and thier party members can use healthstones in Arena. Strike one.




Your english is ******* terrible. Strike two.



Assuming equal gear, and IDENTICAL skill, a frost mage is a rogue's counter. Strike three.

Now Mr. Terribad, gtfo.

CoS out of that.