I've been using the Xavian Stiletto for some time now.
Yesterday, I got Sunfury Bow of the Pheonix. No hunter in the raid, I figured it looked cool and decided to take it.
So after the raid, out of curiosity, I put it in my spreadsheet... and lo and behold, it actually increase my dps over the Xavian Stiletto.
So let me get this straight...
53 atk and about .48% crit is better then +12hit and about .98% crit?
Granted, that's a lot of attack... but I'm also losing a fair amount of Crit and 12 hit... my +hit is still over 200, but 12 points less from being at the so sought after 308.
I'm glad I took the bow now... but this surprised and even shocked me.
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+Hit nor that good?Follow
Pretty much correct.
Once past 8.6% hit (which is extremely trivial to achieve as a Rogue), +hit only effects white damage and poison procs/combat potency. Assuming that the poison procs are not much of an issue (Deadly offhand, not using Envenom, windfury mainhand) the only real gain per point of hit is in Combat Potency and your white damage, which likely comprises at most 60-65% of your overall DPS, although this depends upon how good your gear is. Point for point, crit (or Agility) provides a larger benefit once you've become hit capped.
Once past 8.6% hit (which is extremely trivial to achieve as a Rogue), +hit only effects white damage and poison procs/combat potency. Assuming that the poison procs are not much of an issue (Deadly offhand, not using Envenom, windfury mainhand) the only real gain per point of hit is in Combat Potency and your white damage, which likely comprises at most 60-65% of your overall DPS, although this depends upon how good your gear is. Point for point, crit (or Agility) provides a larger benefit once you've become hit capped.
That`s the thing thought, I'm nowhere near being Hit capped, and I'm losing both Hit and Crit in favor for ATK... and my dps went up.
Your not at that 308 hit cap, but you have exceeded the hitcap of special abilities. I think that is RP's point.
It's more the amount of AP that you picked up as a mace/fist/sword rogue.
AP, since it effects our main finisher (rupture), and our main finisher can't crit, is worth more than both hit and crit.
It's pretty reasonable to say that 53 AP is better than 12 hit and half a percent of crit. If you think about the itemization points spent, it'd make more sense.
AP, since it effects our main finisher (rupture), and our main finisher can't crit, is worth more than both hit and crit.
It's pretty reasonable to say that 53 AP is better than 12 hit and half a percent of crit. If you think about the itemization points spent, it'd make more sense.
Sorry, meant the 8.6% special attack hit cap, not the white damage hit cap. Once you get something like... ~25 hit rating as a Rogue, you should be yellow-hit capped on bosses with full-on combat (5% from Precision, 10 Weapon Skill = 1% Hit, .4% Crit, -.8% Dodge Chance on Target), at which point Crit becomes a more valuable stat.
Barring external influences (like, yes, Combat Potency) and assuming that your DPS numbers are relatively stable... once you have exceeded 8.6% hit, +hit only increases white damage (including Windfury Totem). 15.8 Hit Rating is 1% Hit, whereas 22.1 Crit Rating is 1% Crit. 22.1 / 15.8 = 1.4
If you could magically add either the same amount of Hit Rating or Crit Rating (like looking at socketing a piece of armor), in order for the 1.4% +Hit to be better than 1% +Crit you would need to have 71.4% of your damage come from white attacks. While this _is_ possible in certain situations, especially with an immense amount of Haste stacking (multiple Bloodlusts, multiple Drums of Battle, Dragonspine Trophy, 35% Slice and Dice, passive haste rating) it's extremely unlikely. To use the very-often reposted WWS of Furi's DPS, he gets 67% of his damage from autoattacks.
There are other factors as well, though - effects which can proc on hits (certain haste procs, especially) obviously benefit from an increased chance to land and thus proc - but... as a general rule, try to pick up AP and Crit where you can over increasing your Hit, especially before you start getting heavily into Haste gear (i.e. before Hyjal/BT).
Barring external influences (like, yes, Combat Potency) and assuming that your DPS numbers are relatively stable... once you have exceeded 8.6% hit, +hit only increases white damage (including Windfury Totem). 15.8 Hit Rating is 1% Hit, whereas 22.1 Crit Rating is 1% Crit. 22.1 / 15.8 = 1.4
If you could magically add either the same amount of Hit Rating or Crit Rating (like looking at socketing a piece of armor), in order for the 1.4% +Hit to be better than 1% +Crit you would need to have 71.4% of your damage come from white attacks. While this _is_ possible in certain situations, especially with an immense amount of Haste stacking (multiple Bloodlusts, multiple Drums of Battle, Dragonspine Trophy, 35% Slice and Dice, passive haste rating) it's extremely unlikely. To use the very-often reposted WWS of Furi's DPS, he gets 67% of his damage from autoattacks.
There are other factors as well, though - effects which can proc on hits (certain haste procs, especially) obviously benefit from an increased chance to land and thus proc - but... as a general rule, try to pick up AP and Crit where you can over increasing your Hit, especially before you start getting heavily into Haste gear (i.e. before Hyjal/BT).
RPZip wrote:
Sorry, meant the 8.6% special attack hit cap, not the white damage hit cap. Once you get something like... ~25 hit rating as a Rogue, you should be yellow-hit capped on bosses with full-on combat (5% from Precision, 10 Weapon Skill = 1% Hit, .4% Crit, -.8% Dodge Chance on Target), at which point Crit becomes a more valuable stat.
Barring external influences (like, yes, Combat Potency) and assuming that your DPS numbers are relatively stable... once you have exceeded 8.6% hit, +hit only increases white damage (including Windfury Totem). 15.8 Hit Rating is 1% Hit, whereas 22.1 Crit Rating is 1% Crit. 22.1 / 15.8 = 1.4
If you could magically add either the same amount of Hit Rating or Crit Rating (like looking at socketing a piece of armor), in order for the 1.4% +Hit to be better than 1% +Crit you would need to have 71.4% of your damage come from white attacks. While this _is_ possible in certain situations, especially with an immense amount of Haste stacking (multiple Bloodlusts, multiple Drums of Battle, Dragonspine Trophy, 35% Slice and Dice, passive haste rating) it's extremely unlikely. To use the very-often reposted WWS of Furi's DPS, he gets 67% of his damage from autoattacks.
There are other factors as well, though - effects which can proc on hits (certain haste procs, especially) obviously benefit from an increased chance to land and thus proc - but... as a general rule, try to pick up AP and Crit where you can over increasing your Hit, especially before you start getting heavily into Haste gear (i.e. before Hyjal/BT).
Barring external influences (like, yes, Combat Potency) and assuming that your DPS numbers are relatively stable... once you have exceeded 8.6% hit, +hit only increases white damage (including Windfury Totem). 15.8 Hit Rating is 1% Hit, whereas 22.1 Crit Rating is 1% Crit. 22.1 / 15.8 = 1.4
If you could magically add either the same amount of Hit Rating or Crit Rating (like looking at socketing a piece of armor), in order for the 1.4% +Hit to be better than 1% +Crit you would need to have 71.4% of your damage come from white attacks. While this _is_ possible in certain situations, especially with an immense amount of Haste stacking (multiple Bloodlusts, multiple Drums of Battle, Dragonspine Trophy, 35% Slice and Dice, passive haste rating) it's extremely unlikely. To use the very-often reposted WWS of Furi's DPS, he gets 67% of his damage from autoattacks.
There are other factors as well, though - effects which can proc on hits (certain haste procs, especially) obviously benefit from an increased chance to land and thus proc - but... as a general rule, try to pick up AP and Crit where you can over increasing your Hit, especially before you start getting heavily into Haste gear (i.e. before Hyjal/BT).
This actually isn't true based on the current theory crafting for combat rogues at EJ. As far as itemization points are concerned, 1agi = 2ap = 1 hr = 1 cr as far as DPS stats are concerned. However, in a buffed raid, 1 hr produces more raw DPS than any of the other DPS stats at most gear levels, with common DPS groups (I personally use an enh shammy + warrior as that is generally what I have). You can check this for individual builds by swapping around gems in the spreadsheet (8hit/8crit/16ap/8agi).
This being said, hit scales in a linear manner (second time I'm writing this this week). You gain the same DPS upgrade by going from 0->10 hr as you would from 260->270 hr. There is no real added benefit gained by stacking hit. However, in general, hit gems will provide you the largest DPS upgrade out of any gem (for raiding). Point being, don't pass on better gear just because it has less hit rating on it. If the item is better, it is better. Just because the combination of DPS stats on the "better" item doesn't include hit doesn't mean that said item is inferior. You have to look at not making crazy assumptions that one stat is just flat out better than another. Crit rating is actually the worst stat for sustained raid DPS on an dps per itemization point scale (according to the charts). However, a good amount of rogue gear has it on! Guess what, it's only worse by a slight amout... so who cares.
For what it's worth, at 308 hit, 1669 ap, and 25.01% crit about 62-66% of my damage comes from white hits (depending on the fight and group comp). I won't be holding on to the hit cap, but for now it's easy to reach with gems and such (and the fact that all of the lower end raiding leather has hit on it).
Quote:
This actually isn't true based on the current theory crafting for combat rogues at EJ. As far as itemization points are concerned, 1agi = 2ap = 1 hr = 1 cr as far as DPS stats are concerned. However, in a buffed raid, 1 hr produces more raw DPS than any of the other DPS stats at most gear levels, with common DPS groups (I personally use an enh shammy + warrior as that is generally what I have). You can check this for individual builds by swapping around gems in the spreadsheet (8hit/8crit/16ap/8agi).
Interesting, that's not the results I recall when I messed around with it, but I'll give it another whirl. I believe I specified non-haste proccing item when I set up my gearbase for the spreadsheet, which I said would have a large impact... hm.
Quote:
This being said, hit scales in a linear manner (second time I'm writing this this week). You gain the same DPS upgrade by going from 0->10 hr as you would from 260->270 hr.
This isn't actually true, as before 135 hit rating it also effects yellow damage (Sinister Strike, Evisc, whatever) damage. After that, it will only impact white hits.
RPZip wrote:
Quote:
This actually isn't true based on the current theory crafting for combat rogues at EJ. As far as itemization points are concerned, 1agi = 2ap = 1 hr = 1 cr as far as DPS stats are concerned. However, in a buffed raid, 1 hr produces more raw DPS than any of the other DPS stats at most gear levels, with common DPS groups (I personally use an enh shammy + warrior as that is generally what I have). You can check this for individual builds by swapping around gems in the spreadsheet (8hit/8crit/16ap/8agi).
Interesting, that's not the results I recall when I messed around with it, but I'll give it another whirl. I believe I specified non-haste proccing item when I set up my gearbase for the spreadsheet, which I said would have a large impact... hm.
Quote:
This being said, hit scales in a linear manner (second time I'm writing this this week). You gain the same DPS upgrade by going from 0->10 hr as you would from 260->270 hr.
This isn't actually true, as before 135 hit rating it also effects yellow damage (Sinister Strike, Evisc, whatever) damage. After that, it will only impact white hits.
1) For the first point I was refering to buffed raid DPS in a melee DPS group. Hit isn't the stat to stack if you are going to be running around unbuffed 100% of the time.
2) You're completely right. I'm not sure why I didn't pick a higher "low" number there hehe. I always just assume that everyone has enough hit to never miss specials, as the amount of hit needed for this in a combat build is VERY low. For white damage it's a linear increase, but you always want enough hit to cover specials. Definitely the most valuable stat until you get to that point!
Are there still people that miss specials?
Quote:
1) For the first point I was refering to buffed raid DPS in a melee DPS group. Hit isn't the stat to stack if you are going to be running around unbuffed 100% of the time.
Hm... it might depend on the makeup of that melee DPS group, too. We usually run one Enhancement Shaman, two Rogues, two Warriors in the group.
Quote:
2) You're completely right. I'm not sure why I didn't pick a higher "low" number there hehe. I always just assume that everyone has enough hit to never miss specials, as the amount of hit needed for this in a combat build is VERY low. For white damage it's a linear increase, but you always want enough hit to cover specials. Definitely the most valuable stat until you get to that point!
Are there still people that miss specials?
Are there still people that miss specials?
I really doubt there are for Rogues (see: 5% hit from talents, easily reachable by nearly every build) but there are for a lot of other classes/specs.
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
I've been using the Xavian Stiletto for some time now.
Yesterday, I got Sunfury Bow of the Pheonix. No hunter in the raid, I figured it looked cool and decided to take it.
So after the raid, out of curiosity, I put it in my spreadsheet... and lo and behold, it actually increase my dps over the Xavian Stiletto.
So let me get this straight...
53 atk and about .48% crit is better then +12hit and about .98% crit?
Granted, that's a lot of attack... but I'm also losing a fair amount of Crit and 12 hit... my +hit is still over 200, but 12 points less from being at the so sought after 308.
I'm glad I took the bow now... but this surprised and even shocked me.
Yesterday, I got Sunfury Bow of the Pheonix. No hunter in the raid, I figured it looked cool and decided to take it.
So after the raid, out of curiosity, I put it in my spreadsheet... and lo and behold, it actually increase my dps over the Xavian Stiletto.
So let me get this straight...
53 atk and about .48% crit is better then +12hit and about .98% crit?
Granted, that's a lot of attack... but I'm also losing a fair amount of Crit and 12 hit... my +hit is still over 200, but 12 points less from being at the so sought after 308.
I'm glad I took the bow now... but this surprised and even shocked me.
You fell victim to the hit rating hype. 1 hit rating is barely better than 1 agility. There is no magic in getting to the hit rating cap, you don't get any special bonus from that. I wonder how many rogues are gimping themselves running after hit rating instead of increasing their overall DPS.
If I convert the stiletto stats to AEP (using my own character template) I get 27.5 AEP for it, while the bow is 36 AEP. That is a huge difference. The only advantage of the stiletto is that it is an actual thrown weapon, but for raiding it is really nothing special. I mean, it is barely better than
Mama's Insurance
And yes, crit rating is really nothing special. 1% crit gives me about 15AEP.
...you need at least 200 hit rating to make your white dps not suck, it doesn't matter if you are hitting for like 5 damage more...check the ej forums on this overdiscussed issue
I did check many forums over the course of last months and I have not found ANY proof that you NEED hit rating for anything, other than getting over the threshold of not missing special attacks (which combat builds get by default from talents).
You don't *need* 200 hit rating, you don't *need* 2000 AP, you don't *need* 30% crit rate. The only think one needs is a decent DPS output, which can be achived with any reasonable combination of the above factors, with the biggest contributor being the attack power. Of course it is nice to have all of them as high as possible, but you do not have to reach any magical numbers to be "worthy".
As I mentioned already some time ago, going from 0 to 300 hit rating will increase your total DPS by about 15%. If your DPS sucked to start with, 15% will not help you, and having the max hit rating will not make it much better. It's practically like an icing on the cake - you need to build a solid DPS based on attack power (and weapon DPS), and then you can enjoy the 15% increase.
In summary, stop spreading the hype. Hit rating is good, but it is not everything. And as Tyrandor did, take the DPS spreadsheet and check for yourself. You will see that looking for items with hit rating, and disregarding other stats is a mistake.
You don't *need* 200 hit rating, you don't *need* 2000 AP, you don't *need* 30% crit rate. The only think one needs is a decent DPS output, which can be achived with any reasonable combination of the above factors, with the biggest contributor being the attack power. Of course it is nice to have all of them as high as possible, but you do not have to reach any magical numbers to be "worthy".
As I mentioned already some time ago, going from 0 to 300 hit rating will increase your total DPS by about 15%. If your DPS sucked to start with, 15% will not help you, and having the max hit rating will not make it much better. It's practically like an icing on the cake - you need to build a solid DPS based on attack power (and weapon DPS), and then you can enjoy the 15% increase.
In summary, stop spreading the hype. Hit rating is good, but it is not everything. And as Tyrandor did, take the DPS spreadsheet and check for yourself. You will see that looking for items with hit rating, and disregarding other stats is a mistake.
Quote:
I did check many forums over the course of last months and I have not found ANY proof that you NEED hit rating for anything, other than getting over the threshold of not missing special attacks (which combat builds get by default from talents).
You don't *need* 200 hit rating, you don't *need* 2000 AP, you don't *need* 30% crit rate. The only think one needs is a decent DPS output, which can be achived with any reasonable combination of the above factors, with the biggest contributor being the attack power. Of course it is nice to have all of them as high as possible, but you do not have to reach any magical numbers to be "worthy".
As I mentioned already some time ago, going from 0 to 300 hit rating will increase your total DPS by about 15%. If your DPS sucked to start with, 15% will not help you, and having the max hit rating will not make it much better. It's practically like an icing on the cake - you need to build a solid DPS based on attack power (and weapon DPS), and then you can enjoy the 15% increase.
In summary, stop spreading the hype. Hit rating is good, but it is not everything. And as Tyrandor did, take the DPS spreadsheet and check for yourself. You will see that looking for items with hit rating, and disregarding other stats is a mistake.
You don't *need* 200 hit rating, you don't *need* 2000 AP, you don't *need* 30% crit rate. The only think one needs is a decent DPS output, which can be achived with any reasonable combination of the above factors, with the biggest contributor being the attack power. Of course it is nice to have all of them as high as possible, but you do not have to reach any magical numbers to be "worthy".
As I mentioned already some time ago, going from 0 to 300 hit rating will increase your total DPS by about 15%. If your DPS sucked to start with, 15% will not help you, and having the max hit rating will not make it much better. It's practically like an icing on the cake - you need to build a solid DPS based on attack power (and weapon DPS), and then you can enjoy the 15% increase.
In summary, stop spreading the hype. Hit rating is good, but it is not everything. And as Tyrandor did, take the DPS spreadsheet and check for yourself. You will see that looking for items with hit rating, and disregarding other stats is a mistake.
Quite. It's not a magic pill.
On the other hand, it is extremely good _once you start stacking effects that require you to land hits_. Haste procs, more and more combat potency make hit rating much, much better than it is without massive +hit.
200 HR is kind of the point where you start considering other stats, but before that your boss encounters are going to suck considerably because of the crappy white damage you are putting out, trash is usually irrelevant because they are normally your level or maybe 1 level higher.
The reason WT got a better DPS increase is because of the 53 AP to +12 Hit trade, in other words there is definitely a trade off threshold where you can drop HR for AP/Crit/Agi and still increase your DPS. Note the important part of WT's original post, his +hit is still over 200. Now if another Rogue's HR is like 150 going down to 130 something, on the boss encounters hes gonna suffer more.
The reason WT got a better DPS increase is because of the 53 AP to +12 Hit trade, in other words there is definitely a trade off threshold where you can drop HR for AP/Crit/Agi and still increase your DPS. Note the important part of WT's original post, his +hit is still over 200. Now if another Rogue's HR is like 150 going down to 130 something, on the boss encounters hes gonna suffer more.
Gosh, you still have it all wrong. Hit rating and crit rating are only as good as your base DPS is. If your base DPS is non existant, the ratings will give you nothing! Therefore increasing your base DPS by means of attack power comes first, and ratings later. You can even see that by looking at the itemization - AP is present on low level items, rating stats start to appear only on blues and epics - simply because earlier they make no real sense.
Imagine you have a very low DPS - just 100dps total.
If you add 300 hit rating, your will gain 15dps.
If you add 300 crit rating, you will also gain something like 15dps (or a bit less)
If you add 300 agility, you will gain 50dps or maybe even more (counting with dual wield talent).
I hope you see the difference. These are not exact numbers, but enough to make an example. If you suck, your will still suck with 300 hit rating. You have to get your DPS high enough so that 15% of it will actually mean something.
Now I wonder where you got this 200 number from. For a non-combat build, you need something like 140 hit rating to not miss specials on lvl73 bosses, for combat it is 42. You are pretty much guaranteed to pick up 42 hit rating even without looking for it, that is why I say that if you are combat (i.e have the precision talent, and possibly WE), you can ignore hit rating almost completely.
When I started Karazhan, I had 100 hit rating. And I did not miss any specials on bosses. This is all you NEED - everything else is a bonus.
Imagine you have a very low DPS - just 100dps total.
If you add 300 hit rating, your will gain 15dps.
If you add 300 crit rating, you will also gain something like 15dps (or a bit less)
If you add 300 agility, you will gain 50dps or maybe even more (counting with dual wield talent).
I hope you see the difference. These are not exact numbers, but enough to make an example. If you suck, your will still suck with 300 hit rating. You have to get your DPS high enough so that 15% of it will actually mean something.
Now I wonder where you got this 200 number from. For a non-combat build, you need something like 140 hit rating to not miss specials on lvl73 bosses, for combat it is 42. You are pretty much guaranteed to pick up 42 hit rating even without looking for it, that is why I say that if you are combat (i.e have the precision talent, and possibly WE), you can ignore hit rating almost completely.
When I started Karazhan, I had 100 hit rating. And I did not miss any specials on bosses. This is all you NEED - everything else is a bonus.
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