Do you agree?
My theory;
They cause more grief that they are worth. They can push players to squeeze the max amount of damage at risk of overaggroeing and casuing group wipes. Ive seen a Frost Mage do that before. Over aggroed early pulled the Boss cast iceblock and Boss turned onto the priest because of his healing....BAM group wipe.
If instances were all about doing the max amount of damage possible on a single target then they would be boring. Instead a lot of bosses now require teamwork which is far more involving than planting your feet in the ground and casting your primary nuke spell.
And they casue arguments.....(not even going there0...
Your thoughts?
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Damage Meters - The bane of WoW?Follow
28 posts
hah, I would agree for you on the most part. I like using them to be able to judge more easily how efficient I am with my spell casting, and what the real damage from my spells are with out having to really pat attention to what's popping up on the screen and what my tooltip says.
I do see a lot of DPS players (with and without damage meters) who only care about the most burst damage they can pump out. It's pretty annoying to say the least, it was god-awful when I was tanking and I had to deal with a Hunter/Mage/Rogue going balls out right when I get aggro and no better now that my main is a priest. For the most part it doesn't seem like a lot of people ever really learn to roll on the damage with a little finesse and care, even if they die all the time due to it.
We'll see if it ever gets better, but I imagine that's pretty slim since it hasn't in all the time I've been playing. Yes, I used to do the same thing, but it didn't take very long to realize the error in my ways.
I do see a lot of DPS players (with and without damage meters) who only care about the most burst damage they can pump out. It's pretty annoying to say the least, it was god-awful when I was tanking and I had to deal with a Hunter/Mage/Rogue going balls out right when I get aggro and no better now that my main is a priest. For the most part it doesn't seem like a lot of people ever really learn to roll on the damage with a little finesse and care, even if they die all the time due to it.
We'll see if it ever gets better, but I imagine that's pretty slim since it hasn't in all the time I've been playing. Yes, I used to do the same thing, but it didn't take very long to realize the error in my ways.
In raids, we all turn our DMs off, or you could get /gkicked. The only real time that they are interesting is when you are a mentor to someone and want to show them how to do a bit more damage while playing your class well....
And for the ever-wanting-to-be-larger-e-peen... that's it.
And for the ever-wanting-to-be-larger-e-peen... that's it.
stridernje wrote:
Do you agree?
My theory;
They cause more grief that they are worth. They can push players to squeeze the max amount of damage at risk of overaggroeing and casuing group wipes. Ive seen a Frost Mage do that before. Over aggroed early pulled the Boss cast iceblock and Boss turned onto the priest because of his healing....BAM group wipe.
If instances were all about doing the max amount of damage possible on a single target then they would be boring. Instead a lot of bosses now require teamwork which is far more involving than planting your feet in the ground and casting your primary nuke spell.
And they casue arguments.....(not even going there0...
Your thoughts?
My theory;
They cause more grief that they are worth. They can push players to squeeze the max amount of damage at risk of overaggroeing and casuing group wipes. Ive seen a Frost Mage do that before. Over aggroed early pulled the Boss cast iceblock and Boss turned onto the priest because of his healing....BAM group wipe.
If instances were all about doing the max amount of damage possible on a single target then they would be boring. Instead a lot of bosses now require teamwork which is far more involving than planting your feet in the ground and casting your primary nuke spell.
And they casue arguments.....(not even going there0...
Your thoughts?
I disagree. They are like any other tool. Useful when you use them properly, but with a potential for misuse and disaster.
The best thing you can do, IMO, is to pair them with a threat meter.
But yeah, they aren't for the weak. You must know how to interpret them, how to make sure you're maximizing their full potential.
Protip: If the only Visible Quantity you ever look at is Damage Done, you're doing it wrong.
Quote:
I disagree. They are like any other tool. Useful when you use them properly, but with a potential for misuse and disaster.
The best thing you can do, IMO, is to pair them with a threat meter.
But yeah, they aren't for the weak. You must know how to interpret them, how to make sure you're maximizing their full potential.
The best thing you can do, IMO, is to pair them with a threat meter.
But yeah, they aren't for the weak. You must know how to interpret them, how to make sure you're maximizing their full potential.
QFT. Very useful for mature players, but the ones who focus on NOTHING but topping the meters ruin it for others. I consider someone skilled if they know their class inside out, perform well on the meters, and never ever pull aggro.
OK Poldaran, I'm interested in what number you look at other than Damage Done.
Anyway, I care more on where I'm at on a threat meter, but unfortunately it seems like a lot of players install Damage Meters first and a Threat Meter last.
Anyway, I care more on where I'm at on a threat meter, but unfortunately it seems like a lot of players install Damage Meters first and a Threat Meter last.
tfwagner wrote:
OK Poldaran, I'm interested in what number you look at other than Damage Done.
Anyway, I care more on where I'm at on a threat meter, but unfortunately it seems like a lot of players install Damage Meters first and a Threat Meter last.
Anyway, I care more on where I'm at on a threat meter, but unfortunately it seems like a lot of players install Damage Meters first and a Threat Meter last.
DPS is a good one to look at instead of that.
In our raids I like to keep an eye on the damage charts to know how well I am doing compared to the other Mages (normally been the highest of the mages lately), and then in comparison to the locks/rogues (almost always below them). I do never do more spells to raise my level though, seeing how I am a frost mage I am pretty much only casting frostbolt anyway with the occasional trinketpop. I never really use trinkets unless I am against a boss anyway to prevent accidently over-aggroing on the trash mobs (especially with the ogres in gruul's lair and how they like to wipe aggro and charge and one shot casters).
I always keep it running, but hidden, I prefer to just check up on it every now and then and try not to care about damage that much. Instead I keep an eye on the threatmeter. Besides, when I'm rolling out those AP'd crits, I know we're doing all the damage we need anyway.
I've seen lots of people die because they were just focusing too much on damage over the fight itself.
I've seen lots of people die because they were just focusing too much on damage over the fight itself.
1st off, most people use Damage Meters, which is inaccurate and misleading.
SW Stats and other parsing mods will give you a better idea how the raid is going/went. Dmg Done and DPS are the most looked at stats because Dmg Needed is virtually a constant. If a boss has 1 million hp then you need to make 1 million dmg before your group dies, plain and simple. You can have the greatest tanks and healers but if you aren't putting out the necessary dmg, you will not win! Dmg done and DPS give you an idea of where/who you need to step it up.
However, it is not the whole picture. Different classes/specs will be focusing on different stats. As a healer, i'm looking at Healing Done/HPS/Dmg Taken/Heals Taken/etc. As a tank, i'd be interested in Dmg Taken/Heals Taken/Misses/Blocks/Dodges/Types of Dmg/etc.
Other things factor in as well which need to be looked at more subjectively, like time spent Poly and CS. Also, you can gauge your downtime. It's great to have +800 spell dmg, but when you have no mana or no +spell hit your dps drops off greatly. a stat meter will let you adjust what needs fixing.
Dont confuse max DPS and max Aggro, they are not interchangable. Rather, they are both skills to be mastered. Stat meters and threat meters are meant to teach that.
SW Stats and other parsing mods will give you a better idea how the raid is going/went. Dmg Done and DPS are the most looked at stats because Dmg Needed is virtually a constant. If a boss has 1 million hp then you need to make 1 million dmg before your group dies, plain and simple. You can have the greatest tanks and healers but if you aren't putting out the necessary dmg, you will not win! Dmg done and DPS give you an idea of where/who you need to step it up.
However, it is not the whole picture. Different classes/specs will be focusing on different stats. As a healer, i'm looking at Healing Done/HPS/Dmg Taken/Heals Taken/etc. As a tank, i'd be interested in Dmg Taken/Heals Taken/Misses/Blocks/Dodges/Types of Dmg/etc.
Other things factor in as well which need to be looked at more subjectively, like time spent Poly and CS. Also, you can gauge your downtime. It's great to have +800 spell dmg, but when you have no mana or no +spell hit your dps drops off greatly. a stat meter will let you adjust what needs fixing.
Dont confuse max DPS and max Aggro, they are not interchangable. Rather, they are both skills to be mastered. Stat meters and threat meters are meant to teach that.
I'm a raid leader (or one of them) in my guild. I run a DPS/everything else you can think of meter called Recount (currently unsynced, but with a 200 yard range it generally doesn't matter). The important thing about Damage Meters is that they are interpreted based on the fight and the players.
The big thing for me is it shows who's using what skills and how often. I can then bug the healers about using their 1.5-sec heals as their primary heal, I can yell at the locks when they have any Curse damage up when they were on CoS/CoE duty, and I can compare skills used with DPS with gear to see what appears to be better. We've got a mage that uses almost only Fireball - nothing else. only about 5% of his damage comes from anything but Fireball. He's almost always the top mage on the damage meters. To me, that means he's one of the best geared, but also means his damage is slightly inflated because the other mages are the ones keeping up Imp Scorch. Our best healer was running massive overhealing on Gruuls - but, to put it in context, he was pre-casting Gheal while most of the others were casting reactively, or spot-healing, and he still topped the healing charts (which don't count overhealng). There was another shadow priest in the raid who, using that data, I can approach and make suggestions about her casting rotation and such, since I noticed there was a wide margin between us.
It's got other uses as well. You can compare were people "should" be - someone dies early (provided it's not from overaggroing), you can compare their DPS with others that have similar DPS and figure out about where they'd be. In Gruul's, ideally the only two people taking more damage than me should be the tanks - because if I'm doing my job, I'm popping SW:Death every time it's up. I can check to see who's throwing me the most heals when I don't need them, to tell them that unless I drop really fast and really suddenly I can heal it up with VE (more of a problem for me in Kara atm). I can brag about having 95% overhealing.
You can also see noticeable differences in some fights. Take Prince compared to Nightbane compared to Gruul's - on Prince, the mages and locks are usually quite a ways ahead of me; on Nightbane we're all fighting for #1; on Gruul's, I was #2 with a relatively large margin between me and the mages. Translation? On Prince, I have to interrupt my casting in order to get out of Shadow Nova range; in Gruul's, my DoT's are still ticking during the Silence and Ground Slam/Shatter. On Nightbane, we're all doing the same thing, so it comes down to spec, gear, and skill, and is probably the best of the three to determine who does "the most" damage.
Short version: It's all about context and correct interpretation. Damage meters become *MUCH* more useful in raids, on boss fights, than anywhere else, however.
Plus, it's still fun for me to just run BM and top both damage and healing :D
Edited, Jul 24th 2007 3:21pm by lsfreak
The big thing for me is it shows who's using what skills and how often. I can then bug the healers about using their 1.5-sec heals as their primary heal, I can yell at the locks when they have any Curse damage up when they were on CoS/CoE duty, and I can compare skills used with DPS with gear to see what appears to be better. We've got a mage that uses almost only Fireball - nothing else. only about 5% of his damage comes from anything but Fireball. He's almost always the top mage on the damage meters. To me, that means he's one of the best geared, but also means his damage is slightly inflated because the other mages are the ones keeping up Imp Scorch. Our best healer was running massive overhealing on Gruuls - but, to put it in context, he was pre-casting Gheal while most of the others were casting reactively, or spot-healing, and he still topped the healing charts (which don't count overhealng). There was another shadow priest in the raid who, using that data, I can approach and make suggestions about her casting rotation and such, since I noticed there was a wide margin between us.
It's got other uses as well. You can compare were people "should" be - someone dies early (provided it's not from overaggroing), you can compare their DPS with others that have similar DPS and figure out about where they'd be. In Gruul's, ideally the only two people taking more damage than me should be the tanks - because if I'm doing my job, I'm popping SW:Death every time it's up. I can check to see who's throwing me the most heals when I don't need them, to tell them that unless I drop really fast and really suddenly I can heal it up with VE (more of a problem for me in Kara atm). I can brag about having 95% overhealing.
You can also see noticeable differences in some fights. Take Prince compared to Nightbane compared to Gruul's - on Prince, the mages and locks are usually quite a ways ahead of me; on Nightbane we're all fighting for #1; on Gruul's, I was #2 with a relatively large margin between me and the mages. Translation? On Prince, I have to interrupt my casting in order to get out of Shadow Nova range; in Gruul's, my DoT's are still ticking during the Silence and Ground Slam/Shatter. On Nightbane, we're all doing the same thing, so it comes down to spec, gear, and skill, and is probably the best of the three to determine who does "the most" damage.
Short version: It's all about context and correct interpretation. Damage meters become *MUCH* more useful in raids, on boss fights, than anywhere else, however.
Plus, it's still fun for me to just run BM and top both damage and healing :D
Edited, Jul 24th 2007 3:21pm by lsfreak
I also use damagemeters (that's the name of it, I didn't like the way swstats displayed the damage)... like Pol, I tend to look at DPS, but it also gives me the option to see how much each type of spell I cast did, damage-wise and how much what spell critted. That's good and useful information.
lsfreak wrote:
The big thing for me is it shows who's using what skills and how often.
lsfreak wrote:
Short version: It's all about context and correct interpretation. Damage meters become *MUCH* more useful in raids, on boss fights, than anywhere else, however.
lsfreak hit it pretty well on the head. I'd like to add that there are a ton of function reports to look at, and most of them hold something of value to someone at some time.
Curing done is one you'd be surprised to see that few people use, when it tells you who is doing a very important function on many fights and who is slacking because they want to focus more on the pew pew.
I'm thinking I may need to check out Recount. I too didn't like SWStats, but I would definitely love to pick up something a bit more accurate than Damage Meter.
I'm going through a phase right now where I don't want to do -ANY- damage. Like, if I could go to Karazhan and just wand everything to death, that'd be fine by me.
However, I know I can't do that, because it just causes more stress to the other 9 people in my group. I know how much damage I can do. I'm sure everyone knows what they're capable of. That's not the point of a group.
Yeah, I can look at the damage meters and see that the hunter was ahead of me by 5%. But isn't that the same hunter who overaggroed on Prince and caused us to wipe? Our priest is doing a lot of dispels on that fight, does that mean his DPS is bad? Melees have to get out of range of Shadow Nova, and if there's an infernal plopped down right beside Prince, they pretty much just back off and let the ranged classes do their thing.
Or Illhoof. Our warlock is always number one on damage done that fight, because we just have him spam Seed of Corruption.
Damage meters mean jack squat to me. Do your job the right way, the way groups are supposed to go, and everything will work out just fine.
However, I know I can't do that, because it just causes more stress to the other 9 people in my group. I know how much damage I can do. I'm sure everyone knows what they're capable of. That's not the point of a group.
Yeah, I can look at the damage meters and see that the hunter was ahead of me by 5%. But isn't that the same hunter who overaggroed on Prince and caused us to wipe? Our priest is doing a lot of dispels on that fight, does that mean his DPS is bad? Melees have to get out of range of Shadow Nova, and if there's an infernal plopped down right beside Prince, they pretty much just back off and let the ranged classes do their thing.
Or Illhoof. Our warlock is always number one on damage done that fight, because we just have him spam Seed of Corruption.
Damage meters mean jack squat to me. Do your job the right way, the way groups are supposed to go, and everything will work out just fine.
strangely enough, as this thread was posted a guildy of mine posted on our guild forums that he had made a spreadsheet of the dps/damagedone/healingdone/damagetaken/etc (by spec/person/group/etc)
It is a very interesting spreadsheet to say the least (and must have taken a bit of time to put it all together).
Does this give reason for the players to go all out and blow stuff early? No.
-- It gives people a chance to recognize their potential. See, now I know that my other mages are doing about 100+ less dps than I am. Because I saw that I gave up my spot in kara to a fellow mage to get him more geared (strangely enough, the two other mages are fire spec [and if anyone knows me here -- I'm frost].
It is a very interesting spreadsheet to say the least (and must have taken a bit of time to put it all together).
Does this give reason for the players to go all out and blow stuff early? No.
-- It gives people a chance to recognize their potential. See, now I know that my other mages are doing about 100+ less dps than I am. Because I saw that I gave up my spot in kara to a fellow mage to get him more geared (strangely enough, the two other mages are fire spec [and if anyone knows me here -- I'm frost].
I use a mod called recap. It keeps track of all players and mobs you fight.
You can use it to figure out what kind of damage you are taking, what % of damage does a move account for. It also keeps track of heals by healing spell etc. It's always interesting to see damage meters but far more useful is the detailed stats you can dig out.
From talking with a friend I think it offers the same data as SWstats but with a very nice presentation. Also it's been very accurate on pets, and you can sync it.
Avoid damage meters that only tell you damage and maybe dps. Try and find something that will give details that will allow you to analyze your fighting style.
You can use it to figure out what kind of damage you are taking, what % of damage does a move account for. It also keeps track of heals by healing spell etc. It's always interesting to see damage meters but far more useful is the detailed stats you can dig out.
From talking with a friend I think it offers the same data as SWstats but with a very nice presentation. Also it's been very accurate on pets, and you can sync it.
Avoid damage meters that only tell you damage and maybe dps. Try and find something that will give details that will allow you to analyze your fighting style.
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