I have a question about Haste. Basically how useful is it to a Druid? Do we cap on haste? I heard Rogues have no cap and can stack a ton of haste up. Is something like the following three examples completely wasted on a Druid. If yes, why?
[link=null]http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28830[/link]
or
[link=null]http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28288[/link]
or finally
[link=null]http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22954#z0z[/link]
I know I have a base speed of 1.00. When using the Abacus of Violent Odds my speed goes down to .80 so according to the character sheet I do benefit from haste rating but I don't know if what is on paper is the same as what is being put into practice.
The reason I ask is because Druids in my guild are absolute last on the list to be able to pick up DPS trinkets. The Dragonspine Trophy dropped in Gruul's Lair and I was not allowed to roll on it despite the fact that I was #2 on the DPS list that night. From what I know right now more haste = more overall damage and a ton of crits on our part. It also procs OoC a little more wich is free damage.
DPS Set:
[link=null]http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Proudmoore&n=Mattimer[/link]
I love DPSing when I can as a druid because it is fun. And just for the record, Gruul was down to 50% before he hit his 7th growth. We had a lot of insane DPS last weekend and it was a fun fight.
I am still using some tanking items on my DPS set ( wrist and gloves ) but all in all druids seem to get shafted a little because guilds will only let us have tanking gear and make us fend for ourselves for DPS, or wait until absolutely no more rogues need a certain item. Not sure if it is a rant or not... What do you guys notice?
Mattimer
Haste Follow
My guild never was strict on class priority for loot. Even in old world dungeons, anyone who had DKP and could use the item could bid on it.
I think if they told me I wasn't allowed to roll on something I could use, I would just stop going on raids with them.
I think if they told me I wasn't allowed to roll on something I could use, I would just stop going on raids with them.
If you read the comments left on some of the linked items, you might know this already but Druids will benefit less from such trinkets than other classes.
Basically, Druids will do a helluva lot more damage with their special abilities than white damage. Also, as far as I know, all Kitty abilities are instant so you don't have to wait on your next swing. (Which could've been a reason to want this trinket)
So basically, Rogues will want it their weapons are a good part of their DPS (especially when they have procs on them) and they will apply poisons more often and whatnot. Warriors will want it because white attacks generate more Rage so haste will give them more and skills like Heroic Strike will go off faster.
All that being said, I agree with Quor. If you were running with DKP and wanted to spend some on that, they shouldn't stop you. If you weren't using DKP, you should still have been able to roll on it as long as you're called to DPS from time to time. (i.e. not always in Bear form)
Stand your ground and roll on DPS stuff. I'd only advise against it if it's a minor upgrade and/or if someone would benefit much more from it than you.
Basically, Druids will do a helluva lot more damage with their special abilities than white damage. Also, as far as I know, all Kitty abilities are instant so you don't have to wait on your next swing. (Which could've been a reason to want this trinket)
So basically, Rogues will want it their weapons are a good part of their DPS (especially when they have procs on them) and they will apply poisons more often and whatnot. Warriors will want it because white attacks generate more Rage so haste will give them more and skills like Heroic Strike will go off faster.
All that being said, I agree with Quor. If you were running with DKP and wanted to spend some on that, they shouldn't stop you. If you weren't using DKP, you should still have been able to roll on it as long as you're called to DPS from time to time. (i.e. not always in Bear form)
Stand your ground and roll on DPS stuff. I'd only advise against it if it's a minor upgrade and/or if someone would benefit much more from it than you.
Rogues typicially generate 65%+ of their damage from autoattacks, as well as abilities linked to autoattacks (Poison procs, Combat Potency, Windfury Totem).
DW Warriors typicially generate 75%+ of their damage from autoattacks, or abilities linked to autoattacks (Heroic Strike, Windfury Totem).
Enhancement Shaman typicially generate 80%+ of their damage from autoattacks or autoattack procs (Windfury), although due to the hidden WF cooldown Haste does not scale as well as it might otherwise; nevertheless, Haste is a very large boost to Enhancement Shaman DPS.
Feral Druids typicially generate under 40% of their damage from autoattacks. Rip, special attacks, the lack of Slice and Dice or Flurry and the simple fact that you're considered to be using a 2H weapon instead of dual wielding (ignoring misses for a moment, 14 AP grants a 2H weapon 1 DPS; it grants a dual wielder 1.5 DPS, more if they've got Offhand Specialization or similar) for your white attacks means that Haste is never going to be a very good Druid stat. Your damage profile just doesn't support it, for much the same reason that Tiger's Fury is absolute crap.
It's not a very good Druid trinket; if I recall correctly from browing the Elitist Jerks forums, when modeled on a Druid it comes out as inferior to most blue trinkets (Hourglass of the Unraveller being a prominent example)... so I can certainly see _why_ it'd be a very low priority for Druids. It's also quite literally the best Druid/Warrior/Shaman trinket up to and through Black Temple.
DW Warriors typicially generate 75%+ of their damage from autoattacks, or abilities linked to autoattacks (Heroic Strike, Windfury Totem).
Enhancement Shaman typicially generate 80%+ of their damage from autoattacks or autoattack procs (Windfury), although due to the hidden WF cooldown Haste does not scale as well as it might otherwise; nevertheless, Haste is a very large boost to Enhancement Shaman DPS.
Feral Druids typicially generate under 40% of their damage from autoattacks. Rip, special attacks, the lack of Slice and Dice or Flurry and the simple fact that you're considered to be using a 2H weapon instead of dual wielding (ignoring misses for a moment, 14 AP grants a 2H weapon 1 DPS; it grants a dual wielder 1.5 DPS, more if they've got Offhand Specialization or similar) for your white attacks means that Haste is never going to be a very good Druid stat. Your damage profile just doesn't support it, for much the same reason that Tiger's Fury is absolute crap.
It's not a very good Druid trinket; if I recall correctly from browing the Elitist Jerks forums, when modeled on a Druid it comes out as inferior to most blue trinkets (Hourglass of the Unraveller being a prominent example)... so I can certainly see _why_ it'd be a very low priority for Druids. It's also quite literally the best Druid/Warrior/Shaman trinket up to and through Black Temple.
True that most our damage comes from shred / mangle / rip, the only way for us to get extra shreds in is for Omen of Clarity to proc. Faster melee attacks = more chances for it to proc. There isn't much out there for Druids for haste... I guess there is a reason for that. Oh well, I will get my rogue up there one of these days.
Mattimer wrote:
True that most our damage comes from shred / mangle / rip, the only way for us to get extra shreds in is for Omen of Clarity to proc. Faster melee attacks = more chances for it to proc. There isn't much out there for Druids for haste... I guess there is a reason for that. Oh well, I will get my rogue up there one of these days.
OoC is PPM, so this is false.
Ugh, it ate my reply.
PPM procs actually scale with haste (at least, they've been shown to do so with Flurry/Slice and Dice, since that's easy to maintain), so presumably OOC would too. It's still a fairly minor damage contribution compared to other classes; it's not that the trinket is completely worthless for Druids, but there are better options for you and it's the best, period, for a bunch of other classes.
It's kind of like this little toy. Yes, I know it came from a token, but imagine it was an actual drop; it works for Warriors as a tanking weapon, but you're really getting a lot less out of it than a Feral Druid would in the same situation - it's comparable to other drops that are considerably easier to acquire, whereas this is the best for a long, long time for the Druid. Now just reverse the situation.
PPM procs actually scale with haste (at least, they've been shown to do so with Flurry/Slice and Dice, since that's easy to maintain), so presumably OOC would too. It's still a fairly minor damage contribution compared to other classes; it's not that the trinket is completely worthless for Druids, but there are better options for you and it's the best, period, for a bunch of other classes.
It's kind of like this little toy. Yes, I know it came from a token, but imagine it was an actual drop; it works for Warriors as a tanking weapon, but you're really getting a lot less out of it than a Feral Druid would in the same situation - it's comparable to other drops that are considerably easier to acquire, whereas this is the best for a long, long time for the Druid. Now just reverse the situation.
Just to bring a bit of hard info to the conversation, and to explain with raw numbers why haste isn't as good for us druids as for pther classes.
Numbers from last night's victorious fight on Shade of Aran.
My damage: (175k)
- auto-attack: 37% (65k)
- rip: 28% (49k)
- mangle: 26% (45k)
- rake: 9% (15k)
Rogue's damage: (187k)
- auto-attack: 45% (85k)
- sinister strike: 35% (66k)
- eviscerate: 11% (21k)
- poison: 4% (7k)
- other: 5% (8k)
Numbers from last night's victorious fight on Shade of Aran.
My damage: (175k)
- auto-attack: 37% (65k)
- rip: 28% (49k)
- mangle: 26% (45k)
- rake: 9% (15k)
Rogue's damage: (187k)
- auto-attack: 45% (85k)
- sinister strike: 35% (66k)
- eviscerate: 11% (21k)
- poison: 4% (7k)
- other: 5% (8k)
Rake? When and why do you use this? Is it more damage per energy than shred? Should we be working it into our long boss battles? I've always been doing:
Keep Mangle up
Shred Shred Shred
Rip
Shred Shred Mangle Shred
Rip
And repeat also tossing in cower every now and again.
Keep Mangle up
Shred Shred Shred
Rip
Shred Shred Mangle Shred
Rip
And repeat also tossing in cower every now and again.
Hmm, you know, I was about to say that Rake was a huge amount of damage, but looking at the math...at 2000 AP, you're only getting a 228 over 9sec bleed out of it. Even with Mangle, that only goes up to 296.4.
I'm not so sure it's a good idea after all. I may even stop using it in normal grinding. o.O
I'm not so sure it's a good idea after all. I may even stop using it in normal grinding. o.O
Unless of course he was using rake right before he had to run away... But given the amount of damage he did with it it seems more or less routine for him. Feedback Anathor?
Yes, feedback:
- rake = 1 more combo point for rip for a small amount of energy
- if you can shred aran at all times then you must be better than me at counterstrike :)
Edited, Jul 24th 2007 8:37pm by anathor
- rake = 1 more combo point for rip for a small amount of energy
- if you can shred aran at all times then you must be better than me at counterstrike :)
Edited, Jul 24th 2007 8:37pm by anathor
I noted the 'unless he was running away part'.
Just needed to know if Rake was worth it or not. Seems very situational and very smartly done. Kudos.
Just needed to know if Rake was worth it or not. Seems very situational and very smartly done. Kudos.
While not good for raw dps, I've heard of alot of druids using Dragonspine Trophy for multi mob tanking. Using it in conjunction with swipe allows it to proc very often, and in turn allows for a druid to generate significantly more threat on multiple targets. Since threat output on multiple targets is critical for AoE dps to be an option, this trinket is very useful in specfic circumstances.
I've toyed with the idea of experimenting with the trinket in cat form though. Using it to help boost proc rate on not just OoC, but also T4 2 peice set bonus and hourglass might give enough of a dps boost to make it worth using. Still would be more useful to a rogue or warrior, but might be an upgrade for druids as well.
I've toyed with the idea of experimenting with the trinket in cat form though. Using it to help boost proc rate on not just OoC, but also T4 2 peice set bonus and hourglass might give enough of a dps boost to make it worth using. Still would be more useful to a rogue or warrior, but might be an upgrade for druids as well.
Re: Aran, it's not only while running away, it's also that he turns around all the time to target a new player, that I need to avoid blizzard and that I can't move during flame wreath. And there's also all the running away ;-) All in all I think bleeding effects are very good during this fight.
Re: your eq it looks very nice, I definitely wish I had some of your items. There are a couple of items I was a bit surprised about, namely:
- surely you've had better gloves drop than Verdant Gloves, even for tanking? e.g. Gloves of Dextrous Manipulation or t4 gloves? Or even my beloved Wastewalker Gloves (I use them for both sets).
- for legs I'd say the Clefthoof Hide Leggings (quest reward) would be better. I'm going to start farming the Forestwalker Kilt.
- the band of the exorcist, that one left me puzzled. Maybe you were trying something out when you had it on? Because it's one of the worst dps rings out there, e.g. the Ravenclaw Band from Ikiss in Sethekk would be a clear upgrade.
All in all I had the impression you sometimes went too much for crit/AP/hit (like a rogue) instead of straightforward str/agi?
Re: your eq it looks very nice, I definitely wish I had some of your items. There are a couple of items I was a bit surprised about, namely:
- surely you've had better gloves drop than Verdant Gloves, even for tanking? e.g. Gloves of Dextrous Manipulation or t4 gloves? Or even my beloved Wastewalker Gloves (I use them for both sets).
- for legs I'd say the Clefthoof Hide Leggings (quest reward) would be better. I'm going to start farming the Forestwalker Kilt.
- the band of the exorcist, that one left me puzzled. Maybe you were trying something out when you had it on? Because it's one of the worst dps rings out there, e.g. the Ravenclaw Band from Ikiss in Sethekk would be a clear upgrade.
All in all I had the impression you sometimes went too much for crit/AP/hit (like a rogue) instead of straightforward str/agi?
Guess i'm not as 1337 as you are Anathor. I'll remember to bow down to you later. I don't recall asking you for your opinion on my gear but I appreciate it. I disagree with you on my leggings, I love them a lot even if they are more for Rogues. As for the rest, they will improve over time.
I went for a LOT of + hit rating because I didn't know for a long time that we cap out at like 136 or something. I was pushing +194 at one point... Oops.
Edited, Jul 25th 2007 11:05am by Mattimer
I went for a LOT of + hit rating because I didn't know for a long time that we cap out at like 136 or something. I was pushing +194 at one point... Oops.
Edited, Jul 25th 2007 11:05am by Mattimer
Hmm, sorry if I made an unsensitive comment, I don't know what I said wrong tbh. But I'm certainly not 1337 at all, actually Aran is as far as I got right now so you're obviously much farther ahead. I made comments about the gear because you posted your profile and I was wondering about a few of your choices. I always like to look at what others are doing to see where I can improve. I don't even have one epic on me right now be it on dps or tanking gear so I like to see which way ppl decide to go. Anyhow I didn't mean to be disrespectful or cocky or anything. And good luck on Magtheridon since I guess that's where you're going next.
Mattimer wrote:
Guess i'm not as 1337 as you are Anathor. I'll remember to bow down to you later. I don't recall asking you for your opinion on my gear but I appreciate it. I disagree with you on my leggings, I love them a lot even if they are more for Rogues. As for the rest, they will improve over time.
I went for a LOT of + hit rating because I didn't know for a long time that we cap out at like 136 or something. I was pushing +194 at one point... Oops.
Edited, Jul 25th 2007 11:05am by Mattimer
I went for a LOT of + hit rating because I didn't know for a long time that we cap out at like 136 or something. I was pushing +194 at one point... Oops.
Edited, Jul 25th 2007 11:05am by Mattimer
Dood, lighten up. You might actually find yourself relaxing once in a while :)
Fine, to make everyone happy ( maybe ) go back and watch this again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqO7zEWu0W0
I unfortunately have never seen it before. Perhaps you will get a laugh out of it... ( Especially the gnomes! )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqO7zEWu0W0
I unfortunately have never seen it before. Perhaps you will get a laugh out of it... ( Especially the gnomes! )
Funny vid. Did Blizzard produce it?
Oh, and I went back to the math and yes, Rake doesn't make sense. If I can't shred I should Mangle. I guess Rake (or rather the absence of it) will create a nice, much-needed empty spot in my action bar :)
Sorry that it has taken us far away from haste rating for druids...
Edited, Jul 26th 2007 3:58am by anathor
Oh, and I went back to the math and yes, Rake doesn't make sense. If I can't shred I should Mangle. I guess Rake (or rather the absence of it) will create a nice, much-needed empty spot in my action bar :)
Sorry that it has taken us far away from haste rating for druids...
Edited, Jul 26th 2007 3:58am by anathor
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