ok, i came up with two hemo builds:
Build 1- http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboE0sVZZEMc0hhRoxo
Build 2- http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wZ0xEkMVtZEMc0hhRoxo
For me i guess they come down to CB/SF and weapon specialization. I'm sticking with maces because of how the slow weapon speed factors directly into hemos damage. I would also like to add that i do mostly PVE with a little bit of PVP. Anything you guys can put out would be most helpful whether it be constructive criticism, your opinions, or even different builds.
Thanks in advance!
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Heya,
I don't have much info that would be helpfull to you since I am a lvl 54 rogue myself. I too looked for a hemo spec and I think the SF CB version would work best.
I don't know about lvl 70, but with a Krol Blade your hemo's would really hurt. If you meant to ask for some advice on these builds for when you hit lvl 70 then just ignore my post :)
I don't have much info that would be helpfull to you since I am a lvl 54 rogue myself. I too looked for a hemo spec and I think the SF CB version would work best.
I don't know about lvl 70, but with a Krol Blade your hemo's would really hurt. If you meant to ask for some advice on these builds for when you hit lvl 70 then just ignore my post :)
Why do you take Opportunity in a Hemo build? You can't use Muti, Ambush, Backstab and the whole point of your build is to use Hemo instead, isn't it?
Setup isn't that great. I'd take Elusiveness instead. and I thinkt that a build with 31 in Sub needs 3/3 Master of Subtlety.
As for the Assassination part, I wouldn't invest those 5 points into Vile Poisons. I'd personnally prefer 3/3 Imp Evisc or some utility from 2/2 Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery.
nostra
Setup isn't that great. I'd take Elusiveness instead. and I thinkt that a build with 31 in Sub needs 3/3 Master of Subtlety.
As for the Assassination part, I wouldn't invest those 5 points into Vile Poisons. I'd personnally prefer 3/3 Imp Evisc or some utility from 2/2 Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery.
nostra
ah yes, i see your point nostra, its just that as a maces rogue, my main opener is garrote, so i went for the 20% dm from opportunity, i guess it was a bit of a waste, hmm, let me fiddle with the calculator while keeping in mind your advice, ill post here what i come up with...
Here we go:
Build 1- http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhebot0sqZZxMe0RhRsbo
Build 2- http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wZ0xEkMVtZxMe0RhRsbo
As you can see i moved the 5 pts in oppertunity to camouflage (speed in stealth is good too) and to get master of subtlety i migrated 3 points from deadliness. As for the point in setup, i just needed a filler and wasnt sure about ghostly. For the assassination tree, i put 3 points in imp evisc, left 1 point in poisons as a filler cause i dont use expose armor, cant do BS, and remorseless would have the same effect as oppertunity. I only put 1 point in quick recovery because i wanted 5 points in SF.
well if i have everything strait, this leaves 1 question... which build? 30/0/31 or 0/30/31?
Edited, Jul 23rd 2007 5:34am by Untoucheable
Here we go:
Build 1- http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhebot0sqZZxMe0RhRsbo
Build 2- http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wZ0xEkMVtZxMe0RhRsbo
As you can see i moved the 5 pts in oppertunity to camouflage (speed in stealth is good too) and to get master of subtlety i migrated 3 points from deadliness. As for the point in setup, i just needed a filler and wasnt sure about ghostly. For the assassination tree, i put 3 points in imp evisc, left 1 point in poisons as a filler cause i dont use expose armor, cant do BS, and remorseless would have the same effect as oppertunity. I only put 1 point in quick recovery because i wanted 5 points in SF.
well if i have everything strait, this leaves 1 question... which build? 30/0/31 or 0/30/31?
Edited, Jul 23rd 2007 5:34am by Untoucheable
First build with 30/0/31 would be best I think.
I'd personnally do it slightly differently, but rather a matter of taste (and that's for a mostly pve goal as you said): http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iuebox0RiZZxMe0RhRsbo
nostra
Edited, Jul 23rd 2007 4:49pm by nostraaa
I'd personnally do it slightly differently, but rather a matter of taste (and that's for a mostly pve goal as you said): http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=iuebox0RiZZxMe0RhRsbo
nostra
Edited, Jul 23rd 2007 4:49pm by nostraaa
Actually there was nothing wrong with your 1st build in the OP. 5/5 deadliness>master of sub. And 5/5 vile poisons with imp ks + CB = big envenom dam. Also having Opp in a hemo huild is fine, although I generally use a wpn switching mod to ambush and pick up imp ambush as well. The only other thing i would say is that if you are gonna pick up setup, you need GS too.
As far as comparing the 30/0/31 and 0/30/31 builds: the assassination build is going to be way better against single targets, as it allows for more burst dam along with much better cp generation(SF+relentless strikes) while the combat spec will have far superior white dam and better dam mitigation(LR, deflection+riposte, mace spec) along with the utility of bf and imp kick.
If you do decide to try the combat spec make sure you pick up GS in sub(just move 1 pt out of MoD, as you need 0 pts in MoD to sap effectively with dirty tricks, and 2-4 should be fine for any pvp you do) as your dodge should be fairly high with 5/5 in LR. I would say you need about 35-40% dodge for setup not to be a waste of 3 pts, that way when you GS you are somewhere near 50% dodge and generating quite a few cps.
My preference for either build(if i were using maces) would be along these lines:
30/0/31: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0eboE0sVZZiMfohhRoxo
0/30/31: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wZhxVbrVtZiMfohhRoxo
As far as comparing the 30/0/31 and 0/30/31 builds: the assassination build is going to be way better against single targets, as it allows for more burst dam along with much better cp generation(SF+relentless strikes) while the combat spec will have far superior white dam and better dam mitigation(LR, deflection+riposte, mace spec) along with the utility of bf and imp kick.
If you do decide to try the combat spec make sure you pick up GS in sub(just move 1 pt out of MoD, as you need 0 pts in MoD to sap effectively with dirty tricks, and 2-4 should be fine for any pvp you do) as your dodge should be fairly high with 5/5 in LR. I would say you need about 35-40% dodge for setup not to be a waste of 3 pts, that way when you GS you are somewhere near 50% dodge and generating quite a few cps.
My preference for either build(if i were using maces) would be along these lines:
30/0/31: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0eboE0sVZZiMfohhRoxo
0/30/31: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wZhxVbrVtZiMfohhRoxo
Coming from a long time Hemo Rogue:
Build 1: Setup is worthless, as you should be stunocking with Hemo, not doging attacks. Seal Fate is equally as worthless. You don't have the 30% additional crit rte from imp backstab, making it not proc nearly as much as it does with daggers. No imnproved Evis is also a bad choice for a Hemo build, which counts heavily on big Cold Blood eviscerates. The 2 points in murder is a waste as well. The 2% damage may help over the long run in a raiding environment, but it doesn't do squat in PVP.
Build 2: I tried a similar build about 3 months ago. OK for PVE, but absolutely lacking ANY burst damage for PVP. It was lackluster at best. Also, keep in mind prep does not rest BF...only AR, which you didn't take. Just not very good for PVP imho....and PVP is the only reason you should be speccing Hemo.
Take a look at the Hemo Build in my signature for some ideas on what you should take.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2007 11:01am by Slyyth
Build 1: Setup is worthless, as you should be stunocking with Hemo, not doging attacks. Seal Fate is equally as worthless. You don't have the 30% additional crit rte from imp backstab, making it not proc nearly as much as it does with daggers. No imnproved Evis is also a bad choice for a Hemo build, which counts heavily on big Cold Blood eviscerates. The 2 points in murder is a waste as well. The 2% damage may help over the long run in a raiding environment, but it doesn't do squat in PVP.
Build 2: I tried a similar build about 3 months ago. OK for PVE, but absolutely lacking ANY burst damage for PVP. It was lackluster at best. Also, keep in mind prep does not rest BF...only AR, which you didn't take. Just not very good for PVP imho....and PVP is the only reason you should be speccing Hemo.
Take a look at the Hemo Build in my signature for some ideas on what you should take.
Edited, Jul 23rd 2007 11:01am by Slyyth
ok, slyth i see what you're saying about setup and murder but what im not seeing is your point on SF. I dont have a high crit rate and i cant do backstab or ambush, but what i was thinking was that anything that can help the cp generation of the build would help a lot and have "synergy" with setup. I was just thinking... a hemo crit, 2 CPs for 35 energy would be awesome, but i guess thats just situational. Ok, so, i take the five points out of SF and shift em around. If im hearing everyone correctly, the assassination is for me.
With that out of the way, taking into consideration, everyones thaughts...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fue0oxbsbZbZxMeoMhRsLo
1. i took all points out of SF and moved them to imp gouge, deadliness, and
quick recovery (imp gouge to help in stunlocking, deadliness to help
balance damage for hemo, and QR for those "just in case" situations)
2. I skipped murder and put the 2 points into improved poisons as a filler
3. I got GS incase in pvp they use their damned trinkets and start wailin on me
4. I got imp evisc after recently discovering its used in almost all stunlock
combos
5. And 1 point in remorseless for farming/grinding
Thank you all for input, it was extremely helpful! Just want to double check, did i fix everything? any more suggestions? Different variations?
With that out of the way, taking into consideration, everyones thaughts...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fue0oxbsbZbZxMeoMhRsLo
1. i took all points out of SF and moved them to imp gouge, deadliness, and
quick recovery (imp gouge to help in stunlocking, deadliness to help
balance damage for hemo, and QR for those "just in case" situations)
2. I skipped murder and put the 2 points into improved poisons as a filler
3. I got GS incase in pvp they use their damned trinkets and start wailin on me
4. I got imp evisc after recently discovering its used in almost all stunlock
combos
5. And 1 point in remorseless for farming/grinding
Thank you all for input, it was extremely helpful! Just want to double check, did i fix everything? any more suggestions? Different variations?
OP says is interested in PvE mostly. I'm assuming this means 5mans and solo questing/grinding. Not to argue with Slyyth, because his points about how the build works best in pvp are right on, but I find stunlocking in pve pretty worthless as it takes forever to kill stuff if you are cs+gouging+5 cp ks'ing at every chance. Take setup and GS and a 35%+ dodge and kick some ***. Turns out you can do decent dam if you use your cps for evis/envenom, and you have the utility to stun if you need to.
Also if you calculate your dam from lethality it comes to way less than 2%(of your total dam) in instance runs. Which means murder is not a waste as it is a flat 2% extra dam to all hits(except against undead of course).
I agree SF+hemo not the greatest spec, but if your crit is above 25% it's prolly not the worst build possible. But the 5 pts in SF are prolly better spent elsewhere(quick recovery, more pts in poison talents, etc).
The reason most people spec hemo for pve is they like the utility of prep and hemo is just part of the package. Not everyone cares for/about pvp.
And there is nothing wrong with speccing hemo for pve, I just wouldn't spec more than 22 pts in sub or i would spec 40 pts, nothing in between for general pve. For instance, 11/28/22 is a viable hemo raiding spec according to recent things i've read at EJ's.
Also if you calculate your dam from lethality it comes to way less than 2%(of your total dam) in instance runs. Which means murder is not a waste as it is a flat 2% extra dam to all hits(except against undead of course).
I agree SF+hemo not the greatest spec, but if your crit is above 25% it's prolly not the worst build possible. But the 5 pts in SF are prolly better spent elsewhere(quick recovery, more pts in poison talents, etc).
The reason most people spec hemo for pve is they like the utility of prep and hemo is just part of the package. Not everyone cares for/about pvp.
And there is nothing wrong with speccing hemo for pve, I just wouldn't spec more than 22 pts in sub or i would spec 40 pts, nothing in between for general pve. For instance, 11/28/22 is a viable hemo raiding spec according to recent things i've read at EJ's.
hm, i see what your saying mahlerite, but if i dont land between those numbers, i either wont have premed/deadliness/master of sub or i will not be able to get the "full" benefit from the other tree.
The OP's phrase was "PVE with a little bit of PVP". IMHO this is perfect for Hemo.
Yes, all of my comments were geared towards PVP, because any monkey can kill a mob at around his level with a sword. For PVE a simple CS>>>SS>>>SS>>>KS>>SS>>>>SS>>>Evis until dead, is all that's needed. Got and add or two? No problem. You have Cold Blood X2, Evasion X2, and Blind.
The real issue is being great at PVP. Since PVE is so simple, you want to create a hemo build that let's you kick *** in PVP. Sure setup and ghostly are nice to have in PVE, but if you are using them in PVP, it means you are going to die anyway. Why? Because Hemo is all about stunning and disorienting your opponent while you beat their *** into the ground.
Your last build is spot on, with one exception. 2/3 improved gouge is a waste of 2 points because it doesn't let you restealth in PVP. With 3/3 imp gouge you can gouge>>>>restealth when your vanish isn't up. I can't tell you how useful that is in world PVP. Take you point in Ghostly and put it towards 3/3 imp gouge and you are good to go.
Good luck.
Edited, Jul 24th 2007 11:43am by Slyyth
Yes, all of my comments were geared towards PVP, because any monkey can kill a mob at around his level with a sword. For PVE a simple CS>>>SS>>>SS>>>KS>>SS>>>>SS>>>Evis until dead, is all that's needed. Got and add or two? No problem. You have Cold Blood X2, Evasion X2, and Blind.
The real issue is being great at PVP. Since PVE is so simple, you want to create a hemo build that let's you kick *** in PVP. Sure setup and ghostly are nice to have in PVE, but if you are using them in PVP, it means you are going to die anyway. Why? Because Hemo is all about stunning and disorienting your opponent while you beat their *** into the ground.
Your last build is spot on, with one exception. 2/3 improved gouge is a waste of 2 points because it doesn't let you restealth in PVP. With 3/3 imp gouge you can gouge>>>>restealth when your vanish isn't up. I can't tell you how useful that is in world PVP. Take you point in Ghostly and put it towards 3/3 imp gouge and you are good to go.
Good luck.
Edited, Jul 24th 2007 11:43am by Slyyth
theres a slight problem with moving the point in GS, i need 1 point in one of the upper rows to gain access to the lower ones. All i can do is take a point out of deadliness or master of sub, if you think its worth it. Or i can take a point from the assassination tree, like imp KS or QR, which of the four is worth taking a point out?
Edited, Jul 25th 2007 3:59pm by Untoucheable
Edited, Jul 25th 2007 3:59pm by Untoucheable
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