Well, since Azuarc is dead set against a build that is completely viable, and misreads half my arguments I am not going to keep argueing on it's behalf. I never said I represent half the Hunters in WoW. I said that build represented half of what our class is capable of. And actually I am an unstoppable trapper. I just drop the trap 15 seconds before the pull, and I can keep anything chaintrapped for eternity, barring resists. And even if you had 50 points in Surv, a resist could seriously ruin the day for ya.
Edit: And stop taking things personally. I didn't argue against you. I argued against the attitude that this build isn't viable.
Ah, I said I would stop arguing in it's favor. No point when someone is so deadset against it.
Edited, Jul 30th 2007 12:37pm by NorthAI
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Quote:
And stop taking things personally. I didn't argue against you. I argued against the attitude that this build isn't viable.
I'm responding to what you throw up there. When you quote me and then proceed to write other stuff that isn't clearly in another vein, I can assume it's directed at me.
And I could easily argue back against what you have written, and the implicit interpretations of it, but it really doesn't matter now. I'm pretty sure Mulgrin understands both perspectives, and I'm betting will probably leave it in out of principle, so I'm not trying to force an edit here.
For my own sake, however here is all I want to know: What does a BM/SV build *do*, and do better than another talent spec. Most of the arguments I've seen presented are fairly applicable to a hunter with some skill and -no- talents, or at least a heavy surv build. The SV/BM can be a really bad sort of tanking spec, but apparently I'm the only one thinking along the lines of surv-heavy anyway. The only place I can maybe see any kind of useful advantage for BM/SV is in non-arena PvP. So enlighten me: what is it that I'm missing?
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
Quote:
For my own sake, however here is all I want to know: What does a BM/SV build *do*, and do better than another talent spec. Most of the arguments I've seen presented are fairly applicable to a hunter with some skill and -no- talents, or at least a heavy surv build. The SV/BM can be a really bad sort of tanking spec, but apparently I'm the only one thinking along the lines of surv-heavy anyway. The only place I can maybe see any kind of useful advantage for BM/SV is in non-arena PvP. So enlighten me: what is it that I'm missing?
The short answer is... everything.
It's something that you need to play for yourself to appreciate just how viable it is. It has high dps (even if not the "most" dps), it has very high survivability (by combining BM and SV talents that add to survivability), it has very high utility (by combining the BM and SV talents that add to utility), and even if this isn't an important stat, it does all of these things without sacrificing fun.
In my opinion, the BM/SV build is embracing everything the hunter is about, ranged damage, pet damage, survivability, and versatility.
It doesn't do one thing excellent, like you're trying to interpret it... it does everything very well.
Sayis summed it up nicely. It is pretty much how I look at the build. I do grant that my DPS will be lower than most other builds, but all the advantages outweigh that. It is definitely the ultimate soloing build for Outlands.
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
Sayis summed it up nicely. It is pretty much how I look at the build. I do grant that my DPS will be lower than most other builds, but all the advantages outweigh that. It is definitely the ultimate soloing build for Outlands.
Yet it's not just for soloing. It's good in PvP, in duels (not quite the same as PvP), in instances, and in smaller raids.
Well Sayis, there I will have to say I do not completely agree. It has it's uses in smaller raids, sure. I could raid Kara with a build like that. But I really shouldn't. The raid would benefit far more if I play BM/MM or Surv/MM. Some encounters really need high DPS. Look at the Curator fight for instance. You have a few short moments to unload a crapton of damage. A BM/Surv build there would hamper the raid instead of helping it.
Five mans? I agree completely. You provide utility and more than enough DPS.
When it comes to dueling, I almost never do it, so I can't really vouch for it's viability there. But I can imagine that it definitely has some strong points there.
Five mans? I agree completely. You provide utility and more than enough DPS.
When it comes to dueling, I almost never do it, so I can't really vouch for it's viability there. But I can imagine that it definitely has some strong points there.
The Curator fight, you say?
The only real DPS benefits in a BM/MM build (with primary BM) is going to be +5% crit, and +30% crit damage. Using some general estimates, you'd be doing about 5-7% less overall dps (depending on your stats, but it's nothing astronomical), but you'd be sparing the healers some mana, freeing up another player to handle flares, and sparing that same player a hefty beating.
DPS is important, but the BM/SV build doesn't sacrifice a lot of it, and brings a good bit more to the table.
Smoothrustic wrote:
Having been able to consistently get to the Curator in Karazhan the past few weeks has led me to create a new use for my pet. It works well, but your guild must be fairly trustworthy in your hunter knowledge. So I'll try to pass this along to help out. If someone has done this before or done it better, feel free to chime in with your thoughts...
With most of our guild lacking in Arcane resistance gear, the Curator has been difficult. The healers are wasting time and mana, especially on the poor sap who is #2 on the Curator's aggro list. (they get bombed for 4 to 5.5k arcane dmg)
I get the bright idea to retrain Shellie (my faithful turtle) to arcane resist level 5 -- 140 -- and as much health as I can get on her with Bite 9 and Shell Shield.
Sending in Shellie with Growl on after the MT has gotten aggro seemed to work exremely well. With 165 arcane resistance (with GotW) the damage was reduced by about 35 - 40%, or about 2.5 - 3k per hit. Very easy to heal.
This allowed the healers more time to focus on the poor feral druid putting mangle on every flare that goes by. With better success as well.
Shellie did stay #2 on the threat meter the entire fight, although intimidation is absolutely necessary everytime it's up. Kill command is very important to hit everytime you can to keep aggro as well. The time when the Curator is regaining mana are the rough parts, but sending the pet as early as possible will help you out.
Try it for yourself if your guild will let you. It does seem to work better as one person is now switched to dpsing the flares instead of getting hit with the Curator's bolt (typically a lock or the off tank if you did it that way). I think any BM pet will have enough health to do this, and retraining only costs you 50s.
Have yet to see how avoidance will factor in here, but since the bolt from the Curator is not an aoe spell I don't expect it to change.
*side note* i didn't get my damn tier 4 :(
With most of our guild lacking in Arcane resistance gear, the Curator has been difficult. The healers are wasting time and mana, especially on the poor sap who is #2 on the Curator's aggro list. (they get bombed for 4 to 5.5k arcane dmg)
I get the bright idea to retrain Shellie (my faithful turtle) to arcane resist level 5 -- 140 -- and as much health as I can get on her with Bite 9 and Shell Shield.
Sending in Shellie with Growl on after the MT has gotten aggro seemed to work exremely well. With 165 arcane resistance (with GotW) the damage was reduced by about 35 - 40%, or about 2.5 - 3k per hit. Very easy to heal.
This allowed the healers more time to focus on the poor feral druid putting mangle on every flare that goes by. With better success as well.
Shellie did stay #2 on the threat meter the entire fight, although intimidation is absolutely necessary everytime it's up. Kill command is very important to hit everytime you can to keep aggro as well. The time when the Curator is regaining mana are the rough parts, but sending the pet as early as possible will help you out.
Try it for yourself if your guild will let you. It does seem to work better as one person is now switched to dpsing the flares instead of getting hit with the Curator's bolt (typically a lock or the off tank if you did it that way). I think any BM pet will have enough health to do this, and retraining only costs you 50s.
Have yet to see how avoidance will factor in here, but since the bolt from the Curator is not an aoe spell I don't expect it to change.
*side note* i didn't get my damn tier 4 :(
The only real DPS benefits in a BM/MM build (with primary BM) is going to be +5% crit, and +30% crit damage. Using some general estimates, you'd be doing about 5-7% less overall dps (depending on your stats, but it's nothing astronomical), but you'd be sparing the healers some mana, freeing up another player to handle flares, and sparing that same player a hefty beating.
DPS is important, but the BM/SV build doesn't sacrifice a lot of it, and brings a good bit more to the table.
Oh I have no qualms about those tactics, but a BM/Surv build can be the little loss of DPS that loses us the raid, unless the rest of the raid picks up the DPS slack. Which in some cases just don't happen. So even though it CAN be used in raids, I'd rather bring one BM/MM and one Sv/mm to the raid.
Azuarc wrote:
[quote]I'm pretty sure Mulgrin understands both perspectives, and I'm betting will probably leave it in out of principle, so I'm not trying to force an edit here.
Nope, I don't include in on principle, but because I believe a BM/sv spec has its merits.
Azuarc wrote:
For my own sake, however here is all I want to know: What does a BM/SV build *do*, and do better than another talent spec.
It is like "the marksman" spec. It might not be the best overall spec but there are a lot people who are really in love with BM and not only spec BM because it currently gives the most DPS.
If you are deep into BM you can only go two ways. Either you spec into MM to get mortal shots, lethal shots and go for the throat (the raid cookie cutter) or you go into survival and get all those buffs to the traps and a little extra hit chance.
In the current version I have included the spec as follows:
new version wrote:
Mainly for soloing (buffed pet and crowd control):
41/0/20 Solo PvE. Makes your pet a great tank and gives the hunter nice crowd control.
Sayis wrote:
Yet it's not just for soloing. It's good in PvP, in duels (not quite the same as PvP), in instances, and in smaller raids.
Of course one could tweak the specs to be better for groups, but I have already included two specs for groups and I wanted to show a spec which is more focused on soloing.
In raids however this spec does not shine. It might deliver OK damage, but there are clearly better specs for raids, so I would never encourage anyone to spec BM/sv for raids. You'll miss those 5% crit and 30% crit damage in raids.
As for the Curator example. Curator is a DPS fight. You'll need good dps, especially during evocation.
During those ~10seconds you'll deal 400% damage against curator and it is the only time you'll hurt the boss (you'll have enough to do with the adds the remaining time).
So the 5%less crit and less damage on crit will hurt your damage in that fight. It might be the difference between 3 or 4 evocations (which should be realistiv numbers if you are learning the fight. If you have an instance on farm you can of course enter the instance with a sub optimal spec).
Bump to first page
Aspects
I know AotP lets all in party move faster, but I can't find the reason for being asked to turn it off during fights. They only say turn off pack, sometimes they say plz.
Edited, Aug 17th 2007 1:01:36am by alcattle
Edited, Aug 17th 2007 1:02:20am by alcattle
I know AotP lets all in party move faster, but I can't find the reason for being asked to turn it off during fights. They only say turn off pack, sometimes they say plz.
Edited, Aug 17th 2007 1:01:36am by alcattle
Edited, Aug 17th 2007 1:02:20am by alcattle
Daze. That's why noone wants Pack on if a fight is even possible. Noone wants to be dazed. When that aspect is up, everyone in the party is susceptible to it.
AotP has very rare uses, IMO. And none of them are when you're anywhere close to drawing aggro or getting ready to fight.
AotP has very rare uses, IMO. And none of them are when you're anywhere close to drawing aggro or getting ready to fight.
So do I cause that or is it something the other team does to cause it. I am learning to keep it off, but really did not know why
Mulgrin,
Sorry it took so long for me to look over and reply, but as an SV Hunter I saw a few flaws in sticky.
#1 Deterrance adds 25% chance to dodge, not 50%!!! Its as you said a mediocre talent at best and generally used in arena/pvp situations mainly.
#2 You need to stress that Expose Weakness is the best Hunter party buff when stacked with insane amount of agility. Wording it as "can out do trueshotaura" gives it a bit of a misleading importance, as it always outdoes TSA with decent gear. Also need to stress that this with better traps is the number one reason for SV hunters in a raid situation.
#3 Your rather mistaken on the importance of viper sting in pvp/arena environment. I am not a master at either of these, but if you go to the wow forums and read the hunter forum, the best rated arena Hunter gives faq's on this matter. Anyone who has mana essentially is shot with viper sting, and then kited around pillars draining their mana until they are oom. By far the best sting for a mana user! Serpent sting is never used except for maybe the occasional rogue to prevent vanish....they can always COS out of it, but generally won't blow thier cd for such a small damage.
#4 You should not on SV hunters, that they should also carry around at least 2 pieces of beastlord combined with improved traps, really help! The extra 4 seconds on trap cd's combined with longer duration traps keeps your trapped target encased in a block of ice at all times (if you have readiness for a resisted trap as well). Even guys with better gear than me that roll SV still do this too as they might only drop a few small stats for this (Beastlord is tier 3.5 ya know so its pretty damn good!)
Hope this helps update the sticky!
V
Sorry it took so long for me to look over and reply, but as an SV Hunter I saw a few flaws in sticky.
#1 Deterrance adds 25% chance to dodge, not 50%!!! Its as you said a mediocre talent at best and generally used in arena/pvp situations mainly.
#2 You need to stress that Expose Weakness is the best Hunter party buff when stacked with insane amount of agility. Wording it as "can out do trueshotaura" gives it a bit of a misleading importance, as it always outdoes TSA with decent gear. Also need to stress that this with better traps is the number one reason for SV hunters in a raid situation.
#3 Your rather mistaken on the importance of viper sting in pvp/arena environment. I am not a master at either of these, but if you go to the wow forums and read the hunter forum, the best rated arena Hunter gives faq's on this matter. Anyone who has mana essentially is shot with viper sting, and then kited around pillars draining their mana until they are oom. By far the best sting for a mana user! Serpent sting is never used except for maybe the occasional rogue to prevent vanish....they can always COS out of it, but generally won't blow thier cd for such a small damage.
#4 You should not on SV hunters, that they should also carry around at least 2 pieces of beastlord combined with improved traps, really help! The extra 4 seconds on trap cd's combined with longer duration traps keeps your trapped target encased in a block of ice at all times (if you have readiness for a resisted trap as well). Even guys with better gear than me that roll SV still do this too as they might only drop a few small stats for this (Beastlord is tier 3.5 ya know so its pretty damn good!)
Hope this helps update the sticky!
V
alcattle wrote:
So do I cause that or is it something the other team does to cause it. I am learning to keep it off, but really did not know why
Read the spell description:
The hunter and group members within 30 yards take on the aspects of a pack of cheetahs, increasing movement speed by 30%. If a pack member takes damage, they will be dazed for 4 seconds. Only one Aspect can be active at a time.
AotP and AotC are for traveling purposes only.
So, uh...
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
As someone who appreciates the sticky, and, after reading all the work going into the update, appreciates everyone who's contributed to it, I say thank you.
An area I would like to see added would be a general primer on some of the tasks/functions a hunter should be able to do and, most importantly, how and where to practice them. I guess I'd really like to see a stress on practice so I don't waste the time (and repair funds) of my group when I try to learn by fire when it counts. Three areas stand out for me (basically because I can't do them well and as I'm starting to do more instances, they'll become more important).
Kiting - my simple definition is 'keeipng a mob at ranged distance while continuing to do damage' is that correct? What should I be looking for as I practice this? What should I look for in an area to practice (types of mobs, terrain, etc)? I've read a post about good areas to practice kiting (long sinced buried in the unsearchable depths of the forum).
Crowd Control - my simple definition "keeping a group of mobs manageable and prevent them from overwhelming a person/group". A general outline on how you do this would be useful along with practice areas and signs of success. I read another post long since buried on this as well. (I've started printing a lot more posts as I come across them).
Pulling - I read the thread where pulling rules/routines are often guild or raid specific and that's fine and "Pulling My Leg" is a great primer on the general how to's, but is there a way to practice it without risking a run where other members may have other goals and objectives? One idea I do have would be to help run lower levels through dungeons on the condition that you do the pulling. Is there a way to practice solo?
Great work by everyone who has worked on both the original and the update. I've read many of the other FAQs and while there are many that pale in comparison, none are better.
An area I would like to see added would be a general primer on some of the tasks/functions a hunter should be able to do and, most importantly, how and where to practice them. I guess I'd really like to see a stress on practice so I don't waste the time (and repair funds) of my group when I try to learn by fire when it counts. Three areas stand out for me (basically because I can't do them well and as I'm starting to do more instances, they'll become more important).
Kiting - my simple definition is 'keeipng a mob at ranged distance while continuing to do damage' is that correct? What should I be looking for as I practice this? What should I look for in an area to practice (types of mobs, terrain, etc)? I've read a post about good areas to practice kiting (long sinced buried in the unsearchable depths of the forum).
Crowd Control - my simple definition "keeping a group of mobs manageable and prevent them from overwhelming a person/group". A general outline on how you do this would be useful along with practice areas and signs of success. I read another post long since buried on this as well. (I've started printing a lot more posts as I come across them).
Pulling - I read the thread where pulling rules/routines are often guild or raid specific and that's fine and "Pulling My Leg" is a great primer on the general how to's, but is there a way to practice it without risking a run where other members may have other goals and objectives? One idea I do have would be to help run lower levels through dungeons on the condition that you do the pulling. Is there a way to practice solo?
Great work by everyone who has worked on both the original and the update. I've read many of the other FAQs and while there are many that pale in comparison, none are better.
small bump
All the builds in the Faq show 404 not found Plz help rebuild them, maybe on a different site.
All the builds in the Faq show 404 not found Plz help rebuild them, maybe on a different site.
alcattle wrote:
small bump
All the builds in the Faq show 404 not found Plz help rebuild them, maybe on a different site.
All the builds in the Faq show 404 not found Plz help rebuild them, maybe on a different site.
41/20/0 raiding/5-man BM
7/47/7 Raiding MM(?)
5/20/36 Raiding SV
44/5/12 Solo BM
0/43/18 Solo/5-man MM
0/21/40 solo/5-man SV
(last point in survivalist, resourcefullness or wyvern sting)
41/20/0 PvP BM (??)
0/41/20 PvP MM (??)
0/22/39 PvP SV (??)
Pvp specs i dont have a clue but just put in my best guess.
all others are fairly solid and they could be put in under the header 'Example Builds' with some general notes.
When is this going to get stickied?
This fell to page three! bump.
And to echo the previous poster, when will this be stickied?
And to echo the previous poster, when will this be stickied?
I think Mulgrin is building a new thread with an index and nice layout etc, that will then get stickied. However I have no idea on the progress of that. Is there anything that you need help with Mulgrin? let us know.
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
Bump up. Still need the sticky!
On the enchantments, you leave out shoulder enchants, leg armor kits, and the new head enchants in TBC.
Also, you're using the old AotV spell, not the new one which scales based on your current mana percentage.
Also, you're using the old AotV spell, not the new one which scales based on your current mana percentage.
Hey guys,
sorry leaving that so long in a work on progress state.
I was somewhat busy the last weeks (or better months already) and I somewhat postponed this project by the week.
Now I have a bit more free time and will bring this thing into a better format.
I also plan on putting some extra links in (to make the thing more readable).
Give me a few days (I think a week will be sufficient) for this.
Fixed those things (and a few other things as well).
sorry leaving that so long in a work on progress state.
I was somewhat busy the last weeks (or better months already) and I somewhat postponed this project by the week.
Now I have a bit more free time and will bring this thing into a better format.
I also plan on putting some extra links in (to make the thing more readable).
Give me a few days (I think a week will be sufficient) for this.
skribs wrote:
On the enchantments, you leave out shoulder enchants, leg armor kits, and the new head enchants in TBC.
Also, you're using the old AotV spell, not the new one which scales based on your current mana percentage.
Also, you're using the old AotV spell, not the new one which scales based on your current mana percentage.
Fixed those things (and a few other things as well).
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