Rogue Talent Build ReviewFollow

Combat:

The combat tree is about one thing: damage. The talents in this tree won't generate the biggest crits, and they won't prolong your stunlock, but they'll provide the basis for the highest DPS builds available. This tree is also very good for complementing the other two trees, which is why most builds that focus in Assassination or Subtlety have at least a few points here.


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19/42/0 - Combat Swords

This is the best end-game damage build out there, and unarguably the best leveling build as well. The ability to solo with this build is amazing. Pull 3-4 enemies, hit Evasion, Blade Flurry, and Adrenaline Rush, and you're an unstoppable tornado of swordly death. The only big drawback to this build is the amount of damage you'll do to your finger by spamming Sinister Strike over and over and over and over again.

Pros:

• Very high damage
• Great solo ability
• Very effective against multiple enemies
• Consistent damage output
• No positioning requirements

Cons:

• Highly dependent upon weapons
• Not as effective in PvP as other builds (like combat maces)
• Boring!

"Why those talents?":

• Malice and Relentless Strikes are must-haves for any Combat build, and Swords is no exception.
• Improved Eviscerate is a must-have as well for a Swords build, since this is your main finishing move for enemies immune to poison.
• Murder is a straight 2% increase to your DPS, and the opportunity cost is fairly small (Endurance).
• Improved Sinister Strike is a must, since that's your CP generator, and this talent makes it more energy efficient.
• Precision and Dual Wield Specialization are must-haves.
• Sword Specialization is a must have. Actually, that's one of the only things that makes this build unique from other Combat builds.
• Aggresion is awesome. It increases SS and Evis damage. 'Nuff said.
• Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry are must-haves for any Combat build. These are the talents that make this build so amazing for engaging multiple enemies.
• Combat Potency is awesome. A 20% chance to generate 15 energy with your offhand might not sound like much, but it's absolutely nails for your DPS, and playing without it is difficult once you've tried it.
• Surprise Attacks increases SS damage, and you'll be using that. A lot.

How it compares:

• Higher single-target damage than Combat Daggers in the current end-game raids, and much better for soloing. You don't need to be behind the enemy either, which plays in huge in both PvP and PvE.
• Similar single-target damage to Mutilate, but much better for engaging multiple enemies, plus you don't need to start every fight in stealth, which makes it an easier leveling build. The lack of a positioning requirement is also a plus, but it offers less stun control and less burst damage.
• Less effective than Subtlety builds in PvP, but only because of the lack of a strong opener. If AR and BF are up, you'll be melting faces. If they're on cooldown, you're basically a gimpy warrior wearing leather.
• Less versatility than hybrid builds, but steadier damage output.

Sample variation builds:

The really nice thing about Combat builds is the variation that you can have with them. In the above build, the "swing points" are put into Murder, Imp Sprint, and Imp Kick. If you're still leveling, or you solo quite a bit, don't be afraid to put those points into Deflection and Riposte. If you do a lot of PvP, I'd recommend keeping Imp Sprint, but move some points around to grab Nerves of Steel as well, or even Blade Twisting.

Also note that, while Lethality is a very nice talent, Combat builds don't rely on crits to produce damage and CPs as much as other builds. If you're really focused on AP over crit, don't hesitate to move those points somewhere else.

11/42/7 - PvP Combat Swords

Master of Deception and Dirty Tricks are both nice for PvP. Nerves of Steel is also nice against warlocks and priests, but it's more of a pleasent surprise, so don't count on it. Improved Kick is awesome against any caster, and Improved Sprint should be mandatory for any PvP build. Improved Gouge is key for this build as well, as this will extend your Gouge long enough to drop combat and let you restealth. Put that one left-over point into the talent of your choice.

17/44/0 - Combat Fists

This build is almost exactly like the Combat Swords build, which is why I'm putting it under the variation builds instead of giving it a unique section. Just move the 5 points from Sword Specialization into Fist Specialization, and you've got a Combat Fists build. The +5% crit chance instead of the +5% chance for an extra swing might change your choices for support talents (like making Lethality a more appealing option), but other than that, there are absolutely no differences to mention.

17/44/0 - Combat Maces

Just like Combat Swords and Fists, only with Mace Specialization (and without Weapon Expertise). This build isn't very popular for people who only do PvE because the other weapon specs offer higher damage output, but this is the best deep combat build for PvP because of the stuns and the increased control that it provides.


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15/41/5 - Combat Daggers

While this build will theoretically out-damage Combat Swords (given infinite time, no agro gain, etc), its spot atop the damage meters has been relinquished simply because current raiding doesn't allow you to stay in one place, and positioning is sometimes a very difficult task. However, it does sit comfortably at number two.

In order to achieve optimal damage, this build relies on 3/5/5 cycles, which are near impossible to achieve while soloing or in PvP. This means that Combat Daggers are fairly useless outside of a raid setting. However, if you want to sit comfortably near the top of damage meters, or if you're just a die hard dagger adherent, this is the build for you.

Pros:

• Very high damage
• Relatively easy to play

Cons:

• Useless outside of raids
• Must be behind your target
• Requires a good tank to pull off

"Why those talents?":

• Malice and Improved Backstab should be obvious choices.
• Ruthlessness is just a way to get to Lethality, but it's fairly interchangable with Murder.
• Relentless Strikes helps to keep your cycles flowing smoothly, or give you some extra energy for Feint/Kick/Whatever.
• Opportunity is a must for this build since it increases BS damage by 20%, and that's your main (only) CP generator.
• Improved Sinister Strike is pointless, since you won't be using it. Pick up Imp Gouge and two points into Lightning Reflexes instead.
• Precision and Improved Slice n' Dice are both must-haves, as are Dual Wield Spec and Dagger Spec.
• Those 4 points in Deflection are more of a personal preference. Since this is a raid build, you shouldn't be getting hit anyways, and you might find those four talent points to be more useful in other areas like Imp Kick and Endurance. Feel free to move those points around if desired.
• Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush, and Combat Potency are all obvious choices.
• Vitality increases your Agility, and therefore your AP and crit chance. Since this build is all about damage, this talent is a must-have.
• Nerves of Steel is another personal preference, but not crucial to the build.

How it compares:

• Higher damage than Mutilate, but useless outside of raiding.
• Higher theoretical damage than other Combat builds, but positioning means that this will be lower than Combat Swords in practice. Again, useless outside of raiding. It also has the positioning requirement, where Combat Swords/Fists/Maces do not.
• Higher damage than Subtlety builds, but no PvP viability.
• Higher damage than hybrid builds, but yet again, useless outside of raiding.

Sample variation builds:

Like the other Combat builds, this has several points that can be moved around as desired. In my build, those points are put into Deflection, Nerves of Steel, and Vitality, but feel free to put them into other talents that you'd find more useful. Other than that, the core talents remain the same, and there's not a whole lot of variation in this build.

Edited, Oct 31st 2007 12:27pm by Demea

Edited, Nov 13th 2007 1:08pm by Demea

Hybrids:

Hybrid builds are those that focus on two or three talent trees, but don't go all the way down to the 41-point talents of any one tree. They offer a great deal of flexibility in your play style, and most are proficient in both PvP and PvE, although they don't do quite as well as some of the above builds in their respective strong areas. Hybrids are generally prefered by players that like to do both PvP and PvE, and also want to grab the useful talents from more than one tree.

Since the talent combination possibilities are basically endless, there are far too many hybrid builds to catalogue them all. With that in mind, here's just a few of the more popular ones.


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30/31/0 - Seal Fate/AR Daggers

This build goes into Assassination for the awesome crit and CP talents, and into Combat for the great damage talents. It's really just an alternative to a Combat Daggers build, but with a slightly different spin; instead of the deep Combat talents, you'll have a garunteed crit every 3 minutes, and your CP generation will be slightly higher with Seal Fate. This makes it a bit easier to solo, but not by much, and your overall DPS will be slightly lower.

Pros:

• High damage
• Decent CP generation

Cons:

• Poor solo viability
• Must be behind your target

"Why those talents?":

• Instead of talents like Opportunity, you'll have Cold Blood and Seal Fate, which help tremendously with CP generation.
• Ruthlessness is yet another talent that helps generate CPs, making it worthwhile.
• Relentless Strikes is awesome for energy efficiency, and shouldn't be passed up.
• Quick Recovery is nice for soloing, and the reduced energy cost of missed finishers shouldn't be overlooked, but those points are interchangable with Fleet Footed.
• While you won't be using it much, Improved Sinister Strike is still a talent worth getting because it makes soloing that much easier.
• The points in Endurance and Weapon Expertise can easily be moved around as desired, but both are solid talents.
• If you find yourself using Envenom over Eviscerate, don't be afraid to move the points from Imp Evis and Quick Recovery into Vile Poisons for the increased Envenom damage.

How it compares:

• Lower damage than pure Combat Daggers, but higher CP generation and more viability in a solo environment.
• Higher damage than Mutilate builds (thanks to those deeper Combat talents), but lower CP generation and less solo viability.
• Comparable damage to other Combat builds, but much less solo viability.
• Higher sustained damage and CP generation than Subtlety builds, but much less useful in PvP.

Sample variation builds:

In order to achieve Cold Blood, Seal Fate, and Adrenaline Rush, this build doesn't have much flexibility as far as where your talent points go. In fact, that's the entire idea behind this build. However, there are several points in both trees that can be moved around as desired, such as the points in Quick Recovery, Endurance, Weapon Expertise, and Improved Kick.

30/31/0 - Seal Fate/AR Swords

Basically the same build, only made for swords instead of daggers. This build drops Improved Backstab and picks up a few other talents in the Assassination tree, and replaces Dagger Spec with Sword Spec. Also notice that you should take Aggression, as this will increase your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate damage.

If you prefer to use maces or fists over swords, it's as easy as moving those 5 points in Sword Spec to the appropriate weapon spec.


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30/0/31 - Seal Fate/Premed Daggers

This build is geared towards PvP, with the crit and CP talents from Assassination, and a load of PvP goodies from Subtlety. If you like to PvP and you want to use daggers, but Mutilate doesn't appeal to you, this is a great build to use. Unfortunately, this build suffers in PvE due to the lack of any Combat talents.

Pros:

• High burst damage
• Tons of useful PvP talents
• Decent CP generation

Cons:

• Low PvE viability
• Poor sustained damage
• Must be behind target (especially difficult in PvP)

"Why those talents?":

• The first 20 points in Assassination should be very familiar by now, and this build is no different.
• Cold Blood and Seal Fate are awesome, and don't need any explanation.
• Improved Kidney Shot is a personal preference, but if you don't like it, feel free to move those points into Quick Recovery, Fleet Footed, or one of the poison talents in the previous tier.
• Opportunity should be an obvious choice.
• Master of Deception is awesome for PvP. It should almost be required. Dirty Tricks is right up there too.
• Improved Ambush pretty much nails down your opener, and with Seal Fate, you'll be getting at least 2 CPs on your opener very often.
• Initiative grants you up to 3 CPs on your opener, which is absolutely astounding a non-Mutilate dagger build.
• Serrated Blades will help you immensely with plate classes.
• Heightened Senses is another personal preference. If you don't feel like you'd need it, move the points into Elusiveness, Dirty Deeds, or Master of Subtlety.
• Preparation rocks. Take it. No explanation required.
• Deadliness increases your AP by 10%. Enough said.
• Premeditation adds two CPs to your target before you even attack. Therefore, Premed + Cold Blood/Seal Fate + Initiative = 4 or 5 CPs just on your opening Ambush. GG.

How it compares:

• Higher burst damage than Combat builds, but horrible sustained damage, and poor soloing viability.
• Higher burst damage than Mutilate builds, but low PvE usefulness, and lower sustained damage and CP generation.
• Higher burst damage than pure Subtlety builds (thanks to Cold Blood), and better CP generation. Better all around, unless you really like Shadowstep.

Sample variation builds:

This build is purely focused on daggers. If you'd rather use swords, take the Shadowstep Hemo build in the Subtlety section above, and move ten points over into Assassination. It's really that easy.

Ther are several talent points in there that can be moved around. The points in Improved Kidney Shot and Quick Recovery are fairly fluid, so feel free to move them into other areas like Fleet Footed or Improved/Vile Poisons. You can also move the points in Elusiveness and Heightened Senses into other talents like Dirty Deeds and Master of Subtlety. If you don't find yourself using Ambush very often, move the points out of Improved Ambush and into Dirty Deeds. Other than that, it's a PvP build, so have fun with it!


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11/28/22 - Hemo Raid

Basically just a PvE build, but easily modified for PvP by switching a few talents. I won't include a full write-up for this one since it should stand on its own merit, although it probably deserves one.

Edited, Jan 27th 2008 6:26pm by Demea

Linked in the sticky.

Thanks for the great work Demea.

Very well done Demea, good job.

/clap

I stated at the very beginning of the guide that it was in no way comprehensive.


After reading (and understanding) the above guide, it shouldn't be too hard to make this build on your own. Besides, as stated above, the guide is not comprehensive.


Dagger spec mutilate? It's the very first build. Besides, is there such thing as a non-dagger mutilate? The hybrid build is down there too.


As also stated in the first post, many of those talent choices are a matter of personal preference.

I can't imagine why anybody would actually want to take Dagger Spec over DW Spec since it's been mathmatically and empirically proven that DW Spec does more damage.

"Spikey?" Please elaborate, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, you have a 5% chance to get an extra CP, but even with the 5% damage increase from crits, you'll still see more damage from DW Spec. And rogues are about damage, not "spikeyness."

This is a great post and a good idea if it will reduce constant posts of "mutilate vs combat" etc. However, unless this becomes a sticky, it will unfortunately get lost among the later pages (page 3 atm) and a lot of people don't go past page one before they post. Any hope of this becoming a sticky?

This is linked in the talent section of the Rogue FAQ that's at the top of the forum. If people can't be ***** to read that far, that's their own problem.

the guide was good, but ur mutilation specs don't have Imp KS..... whats that about? that's an essential skill to mastering a mut. spec

Awesome. Excellent Job. /standingovation

This post is AMAZING. Thanks so much on the time you spent on it.

Only thing I saw wrong was for your Combat-Mace spec you have points in Weapon Expertise; that talent only increases skill ratings for swords, fists, and daggers. Maces get the skill-up from the Imp spec talents on its own.

Great post, took most of my day at work to read, but was great.

/clap