A lot of the questions being asked are people who have just started playing Rogue, are thinking about it, or just don't know what to do with their first talent points. These people don't want to make a bad decision and regret it later, and frequently ask for definitive answers to very subjective questions.
WoW is about choice, and there isn't a "wrong" way to play. There is, however, a "best" way to level up quickly, and enjoy the game at the same time. This guide will try to ease you into the class, provide you with answers to very common beginner questions, and go into the most detail I possibly can.
This guide will assume you have already created your Rogue, so race will not be a factor. It will also not cover quests or starting areas, mainly general Rogue topics.
Answers to Frequently Asked Questions
Your energy regenerates twenty points every two seconds. This cannot be increased except through the talent "Adrenaline Rush" (100% increase for 15 seconds, 5 minute cooldown).
Your maximum energy is 100. This can be increased through the Vigor talent (+10), the four piece bonus on the Merciless Gladiator set (+10) and the five piece bonus on the Nightslayer set (+10).
You get Dual Wield at level 10. You should always be dual wielding from that point onward.
You have a 5% chance to miss any special attack (anything that's not a normal swing of your weapon). You have a 24% chance to miss a normal swings while dual wielding (5% otherwise).
The Global Cooldown is the time you must wait between any two actions that are associated with the Global Cooldown (all Rogue skills that are not Finishers). For most classes, this is 1.5 seconds. It is only one second for Rogues. Lucky us.
When dual wielding, your offhand weapon only does 50% damage.
Weapon Choice
WoW is about choice, but this guide is about efficiency. You're going to be using a sword. They're the best weapon type to solo with. If you don't want to use a sword, that's fine, but this guide assumes that you will indeed be using a sword.
Professions
Again, this guide is about efficiency. The best professions to get for early levels are either Mining and Skinning or Herbalism and Skinning. Mining and Herbalism can be done together, but you won't be able to locate both minerals and herbs on the minimap simultaneously.
As for why, you will spend virtually no money leveling them, and will have a steady stream of income from mining, skinning and picking all the resources you come across. It's perfectly acceptable to drop your professions to pick a true crafting profession later, but having two gathering professions will make your journey to 70 much easier.
Funding your Rogue
The perpetual new player problem. How to make money. Here are a few general tips.
1. Sell any item you find which has a gray name to a vendor. These items are of "poor" quality, and have no use in the game except to be sold to vendors.
2. Learn to use the Auction House. If you don't know where it is, ask a guard in whatever city you're in. Only major cities have Auction Houses, no small outposts. Sell your green items that you don't use here. If you're unsure of the price, look for similar items of the same level range.
3. Sell all your cloth on the Auction House. Linen cloth sells for about 20-30 silver per stack, and drops very commonly from low level Humanoid mobs. This is a good way to get the money you need to keep your skills up to date and to upgrade your gear.
4. Invest in bags early. You can buy basic six slot bags from vendors for a few silver each. Having a bigger inventory means loading up on more stuff before having to sell it, which means more experience when grinding, along with more money.
Talent Progression
Here is a level by level talent progression guide that you can follow. It's not necessarily the best way to level, but it is a good one.
Level 10: Improved Sinister Strike 1/2
Level 11: Improved Sinister Strike 2/2
The reason for these is pretty simple. Sinister Strike is your bread and butter attack. You use it, and you use it a lot. -5 energy might not seem like much, but consider this. After two seconds in combat, you will have regenerated 20 energy, for 120 total energy. That's enough for 3 Sinister Strikes at 40 energy each. If they were 45, you'd need to wait another two seconds to perform the third.
Level 12: Remorseless Attacks 1/2
Level 13: Remorseless Attacks 2/2
This increases the crit chance of your next Sinister Strike by 20% at level 1, and 40% at level 2. Very nice grinding talent. Start the battle off right, with a swift SS crit to the face.
Level 14: Malice 1/5
Level 15: Malice 2/5
Level 16: Malice 3/5
Level 17: Malice 4/5
Level 18: Malice 5/5
A lot of low level players might scoff at a measly 5% crit chance, but this is one of the best talents Rogues get. It is maxed out in every level 70 build, and for very good reason. +5% crit chance is equivalent to +5% damage. That means you'll kill mobs about 5% faster, get about 5% more experience in a given time, make about 5% more money, and have a better sex life.
Level 19: Improved Eviscerate 1/3
Level 20: Improved Eviscerate 2/3
Level 21: Improved Eviscerate 3/3
Eviscerate is the only finisher you'll be using for a long time. 15% bonus damage is very nice. At low levels, this bonus is fairly small, but Eviscerate can do some major damage later on.
Level 22: Relentless Strikes 1/1
Regenerates a lot of energy over a period of time. If you've got 5 combo points, it's a 100% chance for 25 energy. That means Eviscerate effectively cost 10 energy. Very nice talent, in pretty much every build there is.
Level 23: Lethality 1/5
Level 24: Lethality 2/5
Level 25: Lethality 3/5
Level 26: Lethality 4/5
Level 27: Lethality 5/5
This is where Rogues really start to come into their own. We're all about stacking damage multipliers. With this talent, your crits will do 230% of normal damage, instead of just 200%.
At this point you have close to the standard Assassination talents, with the exception of Ruthlessness. It's not the best grinding talent (an extra CP every other fight is nothing earth shattering), so it will be skipped for now. We'll also start picking up some PvP things, since the upper 20s is where most people really start getting into PvP.
Level 28: Improved Gouge 1/3
Level 29: Improved Gouge 2/3
The infamous combat restealth. Gouge lasts 4 seconds without talents, 5.5 with. If you take no hostile action against another player for 5 seconds, you are considered out of combat. If you are out of combat, you can get back into stealth. If you are in stealth, you can re-open the battle and throw out all your best attacks again, while your opponent is already wounded. A Rogue successfully re-opening a battle very often spells doom for his opponent, so this is a trick you should learn to do early.
*Only works against other players, you cannot do this against monsters*
Now, here you have a choice. You have a solid base in Assassination. Damage increase, crit chance increase, and some energy regeneration. You can slowly progress through Combat until 40 (at which point a respec is pretty much mandatory), or you can respec now, and lose your Assassination goodies to pick up the ones in Combat. I'll go down the respec route, as it's what I'd recommend.
This is what your new Combat build will be (at level 30). I'm sure I could find a dozen people to tell me how it should be done better, but this is how I'd do it.
Deflection - Taken to get Riposte
Riposte - Very powerful tool for grinding. 10 energy for another attack that disarms is very nice. Grinding on disarmable mobs will really let this shine, as you'll take very little damage from a mob with no weapon.
Precision - You have a 5% chance to miss any instant attack (anything that's not a normal swing). With this, you'll never miss a mob of equal or lower level again. *Can still dodge, block, parry etc*
Dual Wield Specialization - Your offhand weapon hits for 50% damage. With this, that will go up to 75%.
Blade Flurry - One of the best grinding talents in the combat tree. Hitting two mobs and a 20% increase to attack speed is very, very nice. Intentionally overpulling when it's up is a good way to get some extra experience, or get extra experience corpse running. Don't overdo it, but do take advantage of it.
Level 31: Sword Specialization 1/5
Level 32: Sword Specialization 2/5
Level 33: Sword Specialization 3/5
Level 34: Sword Specialization 4/5
Level 35: Sword Specialization 5/5
And sword specific finally comes into play. 5% seems small, especially considering how slow Swords are compared to daggers, but this talent does indeed add a significant amount of damage. It can also proc off itself, providing the occasional frenzy of attacks, leaving a mob dead in a matter of only a few seconds.
Level 36: Aggression 1/3
Level 37: Aggression 2/3
Level 38: Aggression 3/3
Sinister Strike is our bread and butter attack, so we'd like to increase its damage all we can.
Level 39: Weapon Expertise 1/2
Not the strongest talent in the tree, but more weapon skill means fewer misses and more crits, and that's definitely a good thing.
level 40: Adrenaline Rush
The mother of all Rogue burst talents. This doubles your energy regeneration rate for 15 seconds, causing you to regenerate 40 energy every 2 seconds instead of 20. This means that you can perform Sinister Strike twice as often. Stack this with Evasion and Blade Flurry to mow down a pack of mobs quickly.
There you have it. Level 10-40 talent progression. These talent choices prioritize efficiency in grinding over all else. Damage increases, energy regeneration, even disarming your opponent, it's all there.
Gear
A question asked frequently, and pondered upon by all. Where can I get better gear? This will be a list of good gear from instances that you should try to get as you level. Emphasis on cheap or free.
Cruel Barb. Very good level 19 sword.
Leggings of the Fang. These will last you until you get the Triprunner Dungarees in the upper 20s.
Triprunner Dungarees. These will last you a LONG time. I don't even know how long I used these.
Deviate Scale Belt. Very good belt. Can be expensive on the auction house, but getting the materials isn't too hard if you run Wailing Caverns for your pants.
Blackened Defias Armor. Very good chest armor.
...of the Monkey. Any item "of the monkey" will have agility and stamina on it. These are the two most important stats to you as you level, so spending a few silver here and there to replace your gear with updated versions isn't a bad idea. Don't break the bank, though. I wouldn't update anything unless the item is very cheap, or it's very out of date. Spending 50s to upgrade an item to something one level higher will quickly eat through your gold reserves.
Community Contributed Gear Choices
Tunic of Westfall (Alliance-only Deadmines quest) - Dotorion
Cape of The Brotherhood (Van Cleef) - Dotorion
Wingblade (Horde-only Wailing Caverns quest) - Dotorion
Outlaw Sabre (Horde-only Blackfathom Depths quest) - Dotorion
I'll update this with more gear for lower levels as I remember it. It's been a bit too long for me to call up every cool item I found off the top of my head.
Thanks to Slyyth for reminding me that Mining + Herbalism doesn't work so well.
Edited, Jun 26th 2007 2:16pm by Nooblestick
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Nooble, I freaking adore you.
Incoming karma love.
Incoming karma love.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Scholar
48 posts
wish i had this when i started my rogue.. i've been sub since the beginning and man is leveling tough =\ great guide ^.^
For the amount of community service you do here, Alla should give you a Key to the City or somethin...
Nice post.
Sticky please.
Sticky please.
One small note.
Mining and Herbalism can not be simultaneously used on the mini-map finder (unless something has changed recently), making the skinning/herb or skinning/mining combinations a much better choice imho.
Mining and Herbalism can not be simultaneously used on the mini-map finder (unless something has changed recently), making the skinning/herb or skinning/mining combinations a much better choice imho.
I linked it at the top of the sticky I already had, so no real need to re-sticky this.
Good point about the Mining/herb combo, I'd forgotten all about that.
Also, if people could point out some good starter Rogue gear (no world drops please), levels 10-30 or so, I'll add it to the gear section and add you to the thanks section in the guide.
Edited, Jun 24th 2007 8:54pm by Nooblestick
Good point about the Mining/herb combo, I'd forgotten all about that.
Also, if people could point out some good starter Rogue gear (no world drops please), levels 10-30 or so, I'll add it to the gear section and add you to the thanks section in the guide.
Edited, Jun 24th 2007 8:54pm by Nooblestick
Great guide !
Some nice low level gear:
Tunic of Westfall (Alliance-only Deadmines quest)
Cape of The Brotherhood (Van Cleef)
Wingblade (Horde-only Wailing Caverns quest)
Outlaw Sabre (Horde-only Blackfathom Depths quest)
Those are all I can think of right now ^^
Some nice low level gear:
Tunic of Westfall (Alliance-only Deadmines quest)
Cape of The Brotherhood (Van Cleef)
Wingblade (Horde-only Wailing Caverns quest)
Outlaw Sabre (Horde-only Blackfathom Depths quest)
Those are all I can think of right now ^^
Thanks for the guide (I actually am rerolling horde right now as alliance sucks so bad at pvp).
Just wanted to say I put the 3 points from Imp Gouge in Light Refl, since I see Imp Gouge mainly as a pvp talent. If I'm wrong, then I'd better know why!
thanks,
nostra
Just wanted to say I put the 3 points from Imp Gouge in Light Refl, since I see Imp Gouge mainly as a pvp talent. If I'm wrong, then I'd better know why!
thanks,
nostra
Good guide and (as usual) good attention to detail and plenty of common sense on build etc..... but awww -c'mon: "YOU'RE GOING TO BE USING A SWORD" as your starting premise is well....a bit strong - to say the least - isn't it" ?
At an early stage doesnt this tend to encourage the new rogue(s) to go down a route that doesnt really help them learn about stealth, positioning, controlling their target or controlling their CPs quite as much as other options ? (In short you could also say "re-roll a warrior and go fury: that way you'll also get more surviveability....")
As to maximum efficiency well, hmm, maybe (?) Has it actually been proved that the fastest grind to 40 is using Swords over equiping Daggers ? I dont know, but even conceding you the efficiency argument, is it the best way to learn playing a rogue ? Is it a good way to have fun playing a rogue ? Is it going to help you learn to PvP effectively with a rogue ? On all these questions isn't it surely down to preference and play style not "It's just the way it is".
Ambush and backstab and Sap and Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot were put in the game for a reason as well as SS, Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush.... And as too burst damage, surely the Mutilate Rogue is "mother of all rogue burst" DPS, not the Combat Sword Rogue.....
Having seen previous of your posts I am positive you could easily give new rogues alternate (and still sensible and effective) routes to follow using daggers / subtlety etc, explaining how their playstyle will be effected etc. That would be a definitive "Rogue Quickstart Guide".
(Apologies for the Fury Warrior jibe, my idea of a rogue obviously isn't yours, but I totally accept their are plenty of other ways of playing a rogue effectively). Which even include Sword Rogues, if one really must....
At an early stage doesnt this tend to encourage the new rogue(s) to go down a route that doesnt really help them learn about stealth, positioning, controlling their target or controlling their CPs quite as much as other options ? (In short you could also say "re-roll a warrior and go fury: that way you'll also get more surviveability....")
As to maximum efficiency well, hmm, maybe (?) Has it actually been proved that the fastest grind to 40 is using Swords over equiping Daggers ? I dont know, but even conceding you the efficiency argument, is it the best way to learn playing a rogue ? Is it a good way to have fun playing a rogue ? Is it going to help you learn to PvP effectively with a rogue ? On all these questions isn't it surely down to preference and play style not "It's just the way it is".
Ambush and backstab and Sap and Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot were put in the game for a reason as well as SS, Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush.... And as too burst damage, surely the Mutilate Rogue is "mother of all rogue burst" DPS, not the Combat Sword Rogue.....
Having seen previous of your posts I am positive you could easily give new rogues alternate (and still sensible and effective) routes to follow using daggers / subtlety etc, explaining how their playstyle will be effected etc. That would be a definitive "Rogue Quickstart Guide".
(Apologies for the Fury Warrior jibe, my idea of a rogue obviously isn't yours, but I totally accept their are plenty of other ways of playing a rogue effectively). Which even include Sword Rogues, if one really must....
Cause there is no need to?
Sword Rogues in endgame PvE still match up, if not do better on most of the encounters.
Its not like hard to learn any of the things you have mentioned or is even relevant in a grinding situation. You don't control a target, you just wack them down, you do a stealth opener before you actually start the fight (common sense, do damage/cps before the mob aggros on you), a decent class leader or a rogue in the guild can tell you (hopefully) about basic combat principles for rogues. If not, this forum more than suffices. Basically, the learning curve is pretty damn non-existant for any of the specs.
Yes swords work better than daggers. Just grind with daggers vs swords and you'll notice the difference. Daggers is just inefficient energy and CP wise for grinding (outside of Mutilate); you need to gouge, you need to kshot, you need to wait for more energy ticks for your primary cp generator. In other words, why gouge or kshot when you can SS and Eviscerate?
Mutilate works better on mobs lower than you, but once the mob hits your level or higher, Combat Swords is much better.
Sword Rogues in endgame PvE still match up, if not do better on most of the encounters.
Its not like hard to learn any of the things you have mentioned or is even relevant in a grinding situation. You don't control a target, you just wack them down, you do a stealth opener before you actually start the fight (common sense, do damage/cps before the mob aggros on you), a decent class leader or a rogue in the guild can tell you (hopefully) about basic combat principles for rogues. If not, this forum more than suffices. Basically, the learning curve is pretty damn non-existant for any of the specs.
Yes swords work better than daggers. Just grind with daggers vs swords and you'll notice the difference. Daggers is just inefficient energy and CP wise for grinding (outside of Mutilate); you need to gouge, you need to kshot, you need to wait for more energy ticks for your primary cp generator. In other words, why gouge or kshot when you can SS and Eviscerate?
Mutilate works better on mobs lower than you, but once the mob hits your level or higher, Combat Swords is much better.
nostraaa wrote:
Just wanted to say I put the 3 points from Imp Gouge in Light Refl, since I see Imp Gouge mainly as a pvp talent. If I'm wrong, then I'd better know why!
Yeah, they're PvP talent, and a lot of people like to start experimenting with PvP at around that level, so I threw them in. The trush is there aren't a lot of other good choices at that point, so those are just fillers waiting on the respec.
Quote:
but awww -c'mon: "YOU'RE GOING TO BE USING A SWORD" as your starting premise is well....a bit strong - to say the least - isn't it" ?
The guide is about making the grind from 10-70 as quick and painless as possible. Swords are the fastest way to grind.
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At an early stage doesnt this tend to encourage the new rogue(s) to go down a route that doesnt really help them learn about stealth
Sword users don't use stealth...?
Quote:
positioning
Nothing to learn. Stand behind the mob, you can Backstab/Ambush/Garrote. Not exactly complicated.
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controlling their target
Uhh, swords are actually much better at control because they generate CPs far more efficiently than most dagger builds.
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or controlling their CPs
CP control? If you're grinding, it's basically spam your normal attack and then Eviscerate when you hit 5, it doesn't matter what weapon you're using.
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(In short you could also say "re-roll a warrior and go fury: that way you'll also get more surviveability....")
And in short, your argument is "Use daggers or GTFO," correct?
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As to maximum efficiency well, hmm, maybe (?) Has it actually been proved that the fastest grind to 40 is using Swords over equiping Daggers?
Get titan panel and watch your exp/hour. Swords beats daggers, always.
Quote:
I dont know, but even conceding you the efficiency argument, is it the best way to learn playing a rogue ? Is it a good way to have fun playing a rogue ?
That would be entirely dependent on the person playing the Rogue. Some people don't like daggers, some don't like swords. As for learning to play, weapon choice makes very little difference. It's like saying a priest has to be holy to learn to play the class, or a Warrior has to be prot.
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Is it going to help you learn to PvP effectively with a rogue ?
Swords > Daggers for PvP until level 70.
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On all these questions isn't it surely down to preference and play style not "It's just the way it is".
Partially correct. The preference part is up to preference. If you like daggers, then you like daggers. This guide isn't about teaching you what you enjoy, it's about grinding fast and efficiently, and getting started on the right foot.
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Ambush and backstab and Sap and Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot were put in the game for a reason
And only Ambush and Backstab are dagger exclusive. Have you ever equipped a non-dagger weapon before?
Quote:
And as too burst damage, surely the Mutilate Rogue is "mother of all rogue burst" DPS, not the Combat Sword Rogue.....
1. I never said a Combat Sword Rogue was the king of burst DPS, I said Adrenaline Rush was the mother of all burst talents. There is a HUGE difference.
2. No, Mutilate is not the king of burst, they actually do pretty poor burst compared to Combat. Adrenaline Rush + Blade Flurry + Slice and Dice + Bloodlust + Skyfire Haste + Assassination Set Haste will get your mainhand attack speed down to about .7 when using a 1.8 speed dagger. Your energy will regenerate twice as fast, and you'll be hitting two targets at once. Mutilate gets Cold Blood, for one extra crit every 3 minutes. There is no comparison.
[quote]Having seen previous of your posts I am positive you could easily give new rogues alternate (and still sensible and effective) routes to follow using daggers / subtlety etc, explaining how their playstyle will be effected etc. That would be a definitive "Rogue Quickstart Guide".[/quote]
That's actually the opposite of what this guide is about. This is here to give very new players definitive answers as to what is the "best" way to play at very early levels. People who want answers handed to them without worrying that they made a bad choice. The sticky contains plenty of useful info that people looking for those choices can use, and this contains the info that people who want to take the safe road can use.
Nooblestick wrote:
nostraaa wrote:
Just wanted to say I put the 3 points from Imp Gouge in Light Refl, since I see Imp Gouge mainly as a pvp talent. If I'm wrong, then I'd better know why!
Yeah, they're PvP talent, and a lot of people like to start experimenting with PvP at around that level, so I threw them in. The trush is there aren't a lot of other good choices at that point, so those are just fillers waiting on the respec.
Ok, that was my point. If someone, like me, wants to purely rush to lvl 70 as fast as possible, I'd rather put those points into Light Refl... another 3 % dodge can never hurt the grinding.
nostra
Well I guess you felt I lit the touch-paper: but it wasnt meant as a personal in any way at all attack Nooble, I always like reading your posts and generally rate them - but I am just genuinely questioning some of the points you've made, because I don't think they are accurate.
1. Mutilate is the fastest CP generator. Period. Not SS which is by comparison, less efficient, even when improved. When I last looked Mutilate was a daggers only build.
2. And then....the talents which allow for extra CP generation (Initiative, Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes) are in the Subtlety and Assasination trees, not Combat. So if you want to stunlock effectively (and this is where my point about KS comes in), combat is not the way to go. This definitely relates to your playstyle in PvP, for obvious reasons.
3. Re positioning, to the contrary. Combat swords players dont need to worry about positioning whereas backstabbing / ambushing / mutilating rogues do need to worry about positioning otherwise they wont be able to maximise their damage. So making sure you are behind your target at all times changes your playstyle, yes, and means you have to be more position sensitive, yes, and I personally do feel that requires some skill both in PVE and (especially) in PvP.
4. I have equiped Swords and Maces. I honestly feel that Combat and equiping either of those does and would detract from the roguey-ness of my rogue but that is purely personal: I totally accept that other people play different ways and have different perceptions of what enjoying playing a rogue is about.
So my argument is not go "Daggers or GTFO", I am just suggesting your guide is skewed by personal preference rather than fact.
1. Mutilate is the fastest CP generator. Period. Not SS which is by comparison, less efficient, even when improved. When I last looked Mutilate was a daggers only build.
2. And then....the talents which allow for extra CP generation (Initiative, Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes) are in the Subtlety and Assasination trees, not Combat. So if you want to stunlock effectively (and this is where my point about KS comes in), combat is not the way to go. This definitely relates to your playstyle in PvP, for obvious reasons.
3. Re positioning, to the contrary. Combat swords players dont need to worry about positioning whereas backstabbing / ambushing / mutilating rogues do need to worry about positioning otherwise they wont be able to maximise their damage. So making sure you are behind your target at all times changes your playstyle, yes, and means you have to be more position sensitive, yes, and I personally do feel that requires some skill both in PVE and (especially) in PvP.
4. I have equiped Swords and Maces. I honestly feel that Combat and equiping either of those does and would detract from the roguey-ness of my rogue but that is purely personal: I totally accept that other people play different ways and have different perceptions of what enjoying playing a rogue is about.
So my argument is not go "Daggers or GTFO", I am just suggesting your guide is skewed by personal preference rather than fact.
Thanks, at least I'll know I haven't screwed up if I ever decide to level my rogue.
@Whitestile
Lets go over your arguements again shall we?
1. You know Mutilate is so pro at level 25 or 45 right?
2. Nooble suggested Rogues dip into Assassination first, theres a dead zone (the Poison talents) in that tree where you really don't want to be spending points in while grinding. Subtlety is crap till you can get Deadliness and the gear to support Hemo, again Hemo is pretty leet at 30 right?
3. Nah, of course not, theres no benefit for us to be behind a mob right? During grinding you just wanna kill a mob as soon as possible, not dance with it. Cause moving behind a mob is so damn difficult right? If you can't move/stay behind a mob as any class then you have bigger issues than learning to play a Rogue.
4. This is your opinion, not fact.
Your last statement is contradictory and ironic, you are the one skewed by bias, Swords/Maces will always be >>>>>>>>> Daggers in grinding, always.
@Nooblestick
You should mention Maces under your weapon choice section namely because they are usually underpriced on most servers, especially the lower level ones so if you don't get lucky with drops or run dungeons they are always a possibly for a quick and cheap upgrade.
Oh and you can't stunlock, if you think you can you need to re-think your theorycraft.
Lets go over your arguements again shall we?
1. You know Mutilate is so pro at level 25 or 45 right?
2. Nooble suggested Rogues dip into Assassination first, theres a dead zone (the Poison talents) in that tree where you really don't want to be spending points in while grinding. Subtlety is crap till you can get Deadliness and the gear to support Hemo, again Hemo is pretty leet at 30 right?
3. Nah, of course not, theres no benefit for us to be behind a mob right? During grinding you just wanna kill a mob as soon as possible, not dance with it. Cause moving behind a mob is so damn difficult right? If you can't move/stay behind a mob as any class then you have bigger issues than learning to play a Rogue.
4. This is your opinion, not fact.
Your last statement is contradictory and ironic, you are the one skewed by bias, Swords/Maces will always be >>>>>>>>> Daggers in grinding, always.
@Nooblestick
You should mention Maces under your weapon choice section namely because they are usually underpriced on most servers, especially the lower level ones so if you don't get lucky with drops or run dungeons they are always a possibly for a quick and cheap upgrade.
Oh and you can't stunlock, if you think you can you need to re-think your theorycraft.
Good guide Nooble. My personal choice when lvling is to take 2/2 Imp SS followed by 3/3 Imp gouge and then pickup the assassination talents. As there's nothing better(at that lvl) than the gouge+bandage for 5.5sec when you get in trouble grinding/questing and are down to that last mob and your hps are looking iffy.
As to lvling with anything but swords/maces pre lvl 40, it's just really ineffecient. You don't get ambush till lvl 18, cs isn't till 26 and ks is lvl 30. Without the cs/ks abilities it's very annoying(and extremely inefficient) to reposition using only gouge.
Once you hit 30-31 you can pick up whichever 21pt talent appeals to you. If you are going to continue grinding(not questing much) combat is by far the best(bf is extremely sweet), but if you are more into pure questing and and are planning on doing most quests solo respeccing prep+hemo at lvl 31 is also viable. It's still a sword/mace spec so you don't have to find new wpns and prep is very forgiving if you get into trouble as you can vanish/evade/sprint twice in quick succession.
As to lvling with anything but swords/maces pre lvl 40, it's just really ineffecient. You don't get ambush till lvl 18, cs isn't till 26 and ks is lvl 30. Without the cs/ks abilities it's very annoying(and extremely inefficient) to reposition using only gouge.
Once you hit 30-31 you can pick up whichever 21pt talent appeals to you. If you are going to continue grinding(not questing much) combat is by far the best(bf is extremely sweet), but if you are more into pure questing and and are planning on doing most quests solo respeccing prep+hemo at lvl 31 is also viable. It's still a sword/mace spec so you don't have to find new wpns and prep is very forgiving if you get into trouble as you can vanish/evade/sprint twice in quick succession.
Whitestile wrote:
Well I guess you felt I lit the touch-paper: but it wasnt meant as a personal in any way at all attack Nooble
No, I was in no way offended, it's just the way I rebut posts. I counter each and every point.
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1. Mutilate is the fastest CP generator. Period. Not SS which is by comparison, less efficient, even when improved. When I last looked Mutilate was a daggers only build.
And when I last looked, Mutilate required level 50, and this guide goes to level 40. Not only that, but when you consider the amount of energy you have to spend to get behind the mob when soloing, that efficiency goes right out the window. CPs are also not the measure of efficiency, damage is. The Damage/Energy ratio of combat swords will be much higher than any other leveling spec at least to 60 (never played it after 60 due to lack of weapons).
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2. And then....the talents which allow for extra CP generation (Initiative, Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes) are in the Subtlety and Assasination trees, not Combat. So if you want to stunlock effectively (and this is where my point about KS comes in), combat is not the way to go. This definitely relates to your playstyle in PvP, for obvious reasons.
Stunlock is absolutely not possible at low levels. This is also not a PvP guide, it's a grinding guide. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say that.
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3. Re positioning, to the contrary. Combat swords players dont need to worry about positioning whereas backstabbing / ambushing / mutilating rogues do need to worry about positioning otherwise they wont be able to maximise their damage.
I never disputed that.
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I personally do feel that requires some skill both in PVE and (especially) in PvP.
In PvP, yes, some skill is required. In PvE, all you have to do is stand behind it. Since you were talking about learning to play, we'll talk about what you'll ultimately be doing, which is instances. If you can't figure out where the back of the mob is in a group...damn. No skill required whatsoever.
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4. I have equiped Swords and Maces. I honestly feel that Combat and equiping either of those does and would detract from the roguey-ness of my rogue but that is purely personal: I totally accept that other people play different ways and have different perceptions of what enjoying playing a rogue is about.
Once again, this guide is not about what is the most "roguey", it's about the fastest way to level. This is not my opinion, this is fact. Combat Swords is the fastest way to level, with Combat Maces and Combat Fists just behind. Any dagger build, and any build that does not have Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush will fall far, far behind in exp/hour.
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I am just suggesting your guide is skewed by personal preference rather than fact.
On the contrary, my guide is full of facts, it's your argument that is heavily skewed by personal opinion. That actually seems to be the meat of your argument, I don't see how you can deny it after writing several paragraphs explicitly talking about your own preference, or how another player might prefer something else.
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Nice guide Nooble....gotta bump this one till it gets stickied.
nooble this guide makes me so horny
hey nooble i have a very important question i am a lvl 28 rogue should i resec and follow this guide
and when im lvl 30 do i respec or lvl 40?
and when im lvl 30 do i respec or lvl 40?
Use your brain and decide for yourself.
Edited, Jul 3rd 2007 10:42am by Norellicus
Edited, Jul 3rd 2007 10:42am by Norellicus
Lotta angry words about Swords vs. Daggers here. Allow me to suggest two other options:
1. Dagger in main hand, sword in off-hand. That's what I did up until about 16 and it worked pretty well. Not the same exp/hour as sword/sword but you get to use Backstab which I loved, and it's more dps than dagger/dagger.
2. Macros. I carried 1 dagger and 2 swords on me at all times, and created macros to switch out my gear.
- whenever you go Stealth it automatically equips dagger.
- after performing Backstab, or any other dagger-specific opener, it automatically equips my main-hand sword.
- if I'm ever caught in Stealth, or lose Stealth some other way, automatically equips main-hand sword.
Open with a stealth move, then grind away the rest of them with 2 swords. If someone really has their heart set on using a dagger, I think this is a great system.
P.S. I used to think the Gouge talents were stupid until you explained the re-stealth. Fantastic move.
1. Dagger in main hand, sword in off-hand. That's what I did up until about 16 and it worked pretty well. Not the same exp/hour as sword/sword but you get to use Backstab which I loved, and it's more dps than dagger/dagger.
2. Macros. I carried 1 dagger and 2 swords on me at all times, and created macros to switch out my gear.
- whenever you go Stealth it automatically equips dagger.
- after performing Backstab, or any other dagger-specific opener, it automatically equips my main-hand sword.
- if I'm ever caught in Stealth, or lose Stealth some other way, automatically equips main-hand sword.
Open with a stealth move, then grind away the rest of them with 2 swords. If someone really has their heart set on using a dagger, I think this is a great system.
P.S. I used to think the Gouge talents were stupid until you explained the re-stealth. Fantastic move.
17 posts
awesome, but i'm missing something like a suggestion for which weapon is better for offhand (more dps, more maxdmg etc) and which for mainhand.
Kayleefrye wrote:
Lotta angry words about Swords vs. Daggers here. Allow me to suggest two other options:
1. Dagger in main hand, sword in off-hand. That's what I did up until about 16 and it worked pretty well. Not the same exp/hour as sword/sword but you get to use Backstab which I loved, and it's more dps than dagger/dagger.
1. Dagger in main hand, sword in off-hand. That's what I did up until about 16 and it worked pretty well. Not the same exp/hour as sword/sword but you get to use Backstab which I loved, and it's more dps than dagger/dagger.
You should be picking the highest DPS weapon for each hand as you level. Fast in your OH is going to mean more DPS because of the Instant poison procs.
Daggers are complete trash for leveling. The only dagger build that's mildly good for leveling is Mut post-60.
Other than that, you should be using anything but daggers, and the speed of your MH should be at least 2.40.
12 posts
Great guide Nooble! Helps alot. Question...you show the progression up to lvl 40 (all 30 points in combat). If I'm planning on running a 17/44 combat sword build, at what point do you suggest I start putting points in assassination? After the 44 combat points or somewhere between the 30 and 44 points?
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