Very, VERY nice post.
I've got nothing to do with tanking since I'm a mage but it certainly cleared some things up for me.
I really like the placeholders though :D
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Found this in my search for infor, I'm Druid, and it has good info for me as well.
Added some stuff about PTR T4 gear VS Karazhan tanking gear.
ehhm, sorry but, isn't this post completely the same on the WoW-europe site as a sticky on the paladin forum there? With the same title and all.
Defense and mitigation, how it all works.-by Zoe
Good thing though to post it here also :-) great post
Defense and mitigation, how it all works.-by Zoe
Good thing though to post it here also :-) great post
Yes, it is. Check my signature to see my characters?
Aahh ok, i didnt know that you were the same person, sorry :-)
Good guide anyhow :-)
Good guide anyhow :-)
newfangle wrote:
Hello ThelsDeKwant,
I've finally gotten around to reading all of your mitigation stuff, and I must say it is quite an informative piece.
I have one issue, however, and it deals with facing mobs 3 levels higher.
Against mobs of this level, something like holy shield does not increase block by 30% (or 35% with libram), rather at a slightly reduced amount because the higher mob level. Similarly, the displayed values of dodge, miss, and parry will be lower against these higher level mobs.
I'd be curious as to what these decreases actually are. I think back to when I was level 67, and how much more defense rating contributed to defense skill, etc...
Best,
newf
I've finally gotten around to reading all of your mitigation stuff, and I must say it is quite an informative piece.
I have one issue, however, and it deals with facing mobs 3 levels higher.
Against mobs of this level, something like holy shield does not increase block by 30% (or 35% with libram), rather at a slightly reduced amount because the higher mob level. Similarly, the displayed values of dodge, miss, and parry will be lower against these higher level mobs.
I'd be curious as to what these decreases actually are. I think back to when I was level 67, and how much more defense rating contributed to defense skill, etc...
Best,
newf
It has to do with the Defense Skill. Defense affects Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block/Crit chance.
Every point of Defense Skill over the attackers Weapon Skill raises your Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block chance by 0.04% and lowers your chance to be critted by 0.04%.
Most mobs have a Weapon Skill equal to level*5. Mobs 3 levels higher than you have 15 higher Weapon Skill than your base Defense Skill. 15*0.04% = 0.6%. Your Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block chance are each 0.6% smaller than what's listed on your character sheet. Your chance to be critted is 0.6% larger than what's listed on your character sheet.
The penalty is a constant, which you can apply at base. Stuff like Holy Shield still adds a full 30% block chance (35.06% with the Libram). As long as your total avoidance is 102.4% or higher, you're fine against mobs 3 levels higher than you.
3 posts
Excellent discussion man. I have to hand it to you. For completeness sake, you might want to add the new Engineering tanking helm off the PTR. It looks like it might be the best tank helm on the list.
Tankatronic Goggles - http://www.thottbot.com/test/i32473
Binds when picked up - Requires Engineering (350)
Sockets: Meta, Red, Bonus: +4 Block Rating
1149 Armor, 60 Sta, DefR 33, DodgeR 18, HitR 8, Slightly increase stealth detect
Paladin : 3.11% Paladin CB : 3.66%
Tankatronic Goggles - http://www.thottbot.com/test/i32473
Binds when picked up - Requires Engineering (350)
Sockets: Meta, Red, Bonus: +4 Block Rating
1149 Armor, 60 Sta, DefR 33, DodgeR 18, HitR 8, Slightly increase stealth detect
Paladin : 3.11% Paladin CB : 3.66%
There's also a lot of items changing. Guess I'll have to do a full review after the patch.
Here's the patch 2.1 changes for the defense gear:
Legs:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23518 - Felsteel Leggings
Profession: Blacksmithing (8 Felsteel Bar)
1257 Armor, 33 DefR, 39 Sta, Sockets: Red, Blue, Yellow, +4 DodgeR.
+57 armor, requires +2 Felsteel Bars
Head:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23519 - Felsteel Helm
Profession: Blacksmithing (8 Felsteel Bar)
1284 Armor, 33 DefR, 27 Sta, Sockets: Red, Blue, Blue, +4 HitR
+78 armor
Potential Addition(s):
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31368 - Wildguard Helm
Profession: Blacksmithing (8 Felsteel Bar, 12 Primal Life, 12 Primal Shadow, 1 Primal Nether)
1178 Armor, 28 DefR, 58 Sta, 50 NatureRes
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32083 - Faceguard of Determination (New in 2.1)
50 Badges of Justice
1129 Armor, 32 DefR, 36 Sta, 24 DodgeR, 24 BlockR, Sockets: Blue, Meta, +6 Sta
Hands:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23517 - Felsteel Gloves
Profession: Blacksmithing (6 Felsteel Bar)
943 Armor, 25 DefR, 27 Sta, Sockets: Red, Blue, +3 ParryR
+51 armor
Feet:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29254 - Boots of the Righteous Path
The Arcatraz: Harbinger Skyriss (Heroic)
955 Armor, 23 DefR, 34 Sta, 26 Int, 28 SpellD.
+83 Armor, +2 DefR, +1 Sta, +1 Int, +1 SpellD
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29239 - Eaglecrest Warboots
The Blood Furnace: Keli'dan the Breaker (Heroic)
955 Armor, 24 DefR, 33 Sta, 29 Str, 21 Agi.
+83 Armor, +2 DefR, +1 Sta, +1 Str, +1 Agi
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29238 - Lion's Heart Girdle
Hellfire Ramparts: Nazan & Vazruden (Heroic)
782 Armor, 23 DefR, 31 Sta, 26 Str, 22 Agi.
+69 Armor, +1 DefR, +1 Sta, +1 Str, +22 Agi, -21 CritR (might be a transcription error at wowhead?)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29253 - Girdle of Valorous Deeds
The Black Morass: Aeonus (Heroic)
782 Armor, 24 DefR, 37 Sta, 22 Int, 20 SpellD, 16 BlockR.
+69 Armor, +3 DefR, +1 Sta, -1 Int, +1 SpellD, -6MP5, +16 BlockR
Wrists
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29463 - Amber Bands of the Aggressor
The Steamvault: Warlord Kalitresh (Heroic)
608 Armor, 15 DefR, 25 Sta, 22 Str, 15 Agi.
+79 Armor, +3 DefR, +1 Sta, +3 Str, -1 Agi
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29252 - Bracers of Dignity
Mana-Tombs: Nexus-Prince Shaffar (Heroic)
608 Armor, 21 DefR, 30 Sta, 12 Int, 19 SpellD.
+53 Armor, +11 DefR, +2 Sta, -8 Int, +1 SpellD
Shields
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29176 - Crest of the Sha'tar
Reputation: The Sha'tar Exalted
4465 Armor, 13 DefR, 19 Sta, 132 BlockV, Sockets: Blue, Blue, 3 DodgeR.
+407 Armor, +2 DefR, +1 Sta, +15BlockV
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29266 - Azure-Shield of Coldarra
Badges of Justice: 33
4668 Armor, 22 DefR, 31 Sta, 148 BlockV.
+407 Armor, +2 DefR, +3 Sta, +17BlockV
Legs:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23518 - Felsteel Leggings
Profession: Blacksmithing (8 Felsteel Bar)
1257 Armor, 33 DefR, 39 Sta, Sockets: Red, Blue, Yellow, +4 DodgeR.
+57 armor, requires +2 Felsteel Bars
Head:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23519 - Felsteel Helm
Profession: Blacksmithing (8 Felsteel Bar)
1284 Armor, 33 DefR, 27 Sta, Sockets: Red, Blue, Blue, +4 HitR
+78 armor
Potential Addition(s):
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31368 - Wildguard Helm
Profession: Blacksmithing (8 Felsteel Bar, 12 Primal Life, 12 Primal Shadow, 1 Primal Nether)
1178 Armor, 28 DefR, 58 Sta, 50 NatureRes
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32083 - Faceguard of Determination (New in 2.1)
50 Badges of Justice
1129 Armor, 32 DefR, 36 Sta, 24 DodgeR, 24 BlockR, Sockets: Blue, Meta, +6 Sta
Hands:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23517 - Felsteel Gloves
Profession: Blacksmithing (6 Felsteel Bar)
943 Armor, 25 DefR, 27 Sta, Sockets: Red, Blue, +3 ParryR
+51 armor
Feet:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29254 - Boots of the Righteous Path
The Arcatraz: Harbinger Skyriss (Heroic)
955 Armor, 23 DefR, 34 Sta, 26 Int, 28 SpellD.
+83 Armor, +2 DefR, +1 Sta, +1 Int, +1 SpellD
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29239 - Eaglecrest Warboots
The Blood Furnace: Keli'dan the Breaker (Heroic)
955 Armor, 24 DefR, 33 Sta, 29 Str, 21 Agi.
+83 Armor, +2 DefR, +1 Sta, +1 Str, +1 Agi
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29238 - Lion's Heart Girdle
Hellfire Ramparts: Nazan & Vazruden (Heroic)
782 Armor, 23 DefR, 31 Sta, 26 Str, 22 Agi.
+69 Armor, +1 DefR, +1 Sta, +1 Str, +22 Agi, -21 CritR (might be a transcription error at wowhead?)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29253 - Girdle of Valorous Deeds
The Black Morass: Aeonus (Heroic)
782 Armor, 24 DefR, 37 Sta, 22 Int, 20 SpellD, 16 BlockR.
+69 Armor, +3 DefR, +1 Sta, -1 Int, +1 SpellD, -6MP5, +16 BlockR
Wrists
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29463 - Amber Bands of the Aggressor
The Steamvault: Warlord Kalitresh (Heroic)
608 Armor, 15 DefR, 25 Sta, 22 Str, 15 Agi.
+79 Armor, +3 DefR, +1 Sta, +3 Str, -1 Agi
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29252 - Bracers of Dignity
Mana-Tombs: Nexus-Prince Shaffar (Heroic)
608 Armor, 21 DefR, 30 Sta, 12 Int, 19 SpellD.
+53 Armor, +11 DefR, +2 Sta, -8 Int, +1 SpellD
Shields
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29176 - Crest of the Sha'tar
Reputation: The Sha'tar Exalted
4465 Armor, 13 DefR, 19 Sta, 132 BlockV, Sockets: Blue, Blue, 3 DodgeR.
+407 Armor, +2 DefR, +1 Sta, +15BlockV
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29266 - Azure-Shield of Coldarra
Badges of Justice: 33
4668 Armor, 22 DefR, 31 Sta, 148 BlockV.
+407 Armor, +2 DefR, +3 Sta, +17BlockV
Thx, Alastair. I've been checking all the epics, but I overlooked the Felsteel armor boosts. Thanks for pointing them out.
Drastically changed the layout.
Included a lot of raid drops.
Afaik, incorporated all the 2.1 changes. Hope I didn't miss any.
Included a lot of raid drops.
Afaik, incorporated all the 2.1 changes. Hope I didn't miss any.
Couldn't you have left the original stuff too? 
I don't do arena and I was looking at the original pally prot gear as my starting benchmark for raiding. Foolishly I didn't copy it and now it's all gone.
I don't do arena and I was looking at the original pally prot gear as my starting benchmark for raiding. Foolishly I didn't copy it and now it's all gone.
Celcio wrote:
Couldn't you have left the original stuff too?
I don't do arena and I was looking at the original pally prot gear as my starting benchmark for raiding. Foolishly I didn't copy it and now it's all gone.
I don't do arena and I was looking at the original pally prot gear as my starting benchmark for raiding. Foolishly I didn't copy it and now it's all gone.
The information is still in there, just mixed up with the rest. You can also use the patch update I posted just above as a pointer, and you will find the pre-Khara tanking gear on wowhead.com by filtering plate by iLevel between 90 and 114 (115+ is usually Khara grade and better).
Here's a starting filter: http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.4&filter=qu=2:3:4;minle=90;maxle=114;cr=42:44:45:46;crs=1:1:1:1;crv=0:0:0:0;ma=1#00cz
Hope that helps some.
Edited, Jun 1st 2007 11:41pm by Alastaironsiren
Celcio wrote:
Couldn't you have left the original stuff too?
I don't do arena and I was looking at the original pally prot gear as my starting benchmark for raiding. Foolishly I didn't copy it and now it's all gone.
I don't do arena and I was looking at the original pally prot gear as my starting benchmark for raiding. Foolishly I didn't copy it and now it's all gone.
The problem is that a lot of stuff changed with the patch, allowing for different optimizations. The new format is easier for people that for example don't want to run heroics.
There are 2 items in the list that are PvP oriented, the weapon and the shield. Just stick to the Continuum Blade as your weapon, and the Crest of the Sha'Tar as your shield.
Also, with the Paladin CB values added, it's easier to see how much each item helps fighting crushing blow.
One request: Could you please expand the "Maintaining Aggro" section?
This part is so vitally important, it needs more on it, and then your tanking masterpiece will be totally ... total.
Anyone who hasn't played RPG groups before really need to get the idea that their own personal damage to the mob/s is a secondary consideration, and that their own damage to the mob is probably not where most of the Threat (Hate) that they generate is going to come from.
They need to be looking out for moves or spells that generate Threat in particular, whenever they join a group/party. (Not necessarily high damage moves).
This part is so vitally important, it needs more on it, and then your tanking masterpiece will be totally ... total.
Anyone who hasn't played RPG groups before really need to get the idea that their own personal damage to the mob/s is a secondary consideration, and that their own damage to the mob is probably not where most of the Threat (Hate) that they generate is going to come from.
They need to be looking out for moves or spells that generate Threat in particular, whenever they join a group/party. (Not necessarily high damage moves).
I'm working on a heavy updated version of this thread. I've grown a bit tired of mirrorupdating it, though, so this thread is a little behind.
As for threat and damage, they're basically the same for a paladin.
PAladins have 1 selfbuff that raises the threat done by all holy spells by 90%. Then there is 1 spell (Holy Shield) that has a built-in 35% threat bonus on all the damage it deals.
As for threat and damage, they're basically the same for a paladin.
PAladins have 1 selfbuff that raises the threat done by all holy spells by 90%. Then there is 1 spell (Holy Shield) that has a built-in 35% threat bonus on all the damage it deals.
I know I'm a little late, as the last post on this thread was a good 4 months ago now, but I wanted to say thanks. I'm relatively new and I've used this as my Bible. It really made the game 1000x more interesting for me, and inspired me to run my respec bill up to cap going back and forth from Holy to Prot on a regular basis. :)
One question though:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28502 - Vambraces of Courage
Karazhan: Attumen the Huntsman
634 Armor, 33 Sta, 15 Def, 33 BlockV, Sockets: Yellow, +2 DodgeR.
Warrior: 1.35%, Paladin: 1.47%, Paladin CB: 1.72%.
Is this correct? I got em last night and I've been trying to figure out the math to see if I can wear them and not become crushable again, so I checked the numbers at work today and compared to my current bracers and noticed that what you have listed for Paladin CB is about the same for both. Is there something I'm missing in the system that gives these the 1.72%? Or is it just a typo? (I really wish it was 1.72% though. :)) Or do you include the possible gemming in your CB math as well maybe?
Edited, Oct 31st 2007 4:55pm by Michaera
One question though:
Quote:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28502 - Vambraces of Courage
Karazhan: Attumen the Huntsman
634 Armor, 33 Sta, 15 Def, 33 BlockV, Sockets: Yellow, +2 DodgeR.
Warrior: 1.35%, Paladin: 1.47%, Paladin CB: 1.72%.
Is this correct? I got em last night and I've been trying to figure out the math to see if I can wear them and not become crushable again, so I checked the numbers at work today and compared to my current bracers and noticed that what you have listed for Paladin CB is about the same for both. Is there something I'm missing in the system that gives these the 1.72%? Or is it just a typo? (I really wish it was 1.72% though. :)) Or do you include the possible gemming in your CB math as well maybe?
Edited, Oct 31st 2007 4:55pm by Michaera
question...
Defense/Resilience?
I guess it's better to get the 490 defense, and after that(if you want to) stack some resilience to lower the damage from dot's?
or?
Defense/Resilience?
I guess it's better to get the 490 defense, and after that(if you want to) stack some resilience to lower the damage from dot's?
or?
Probably should have just made this a topic in the forum.
Resil is really only good for PvP. Getting tanking gear with resil on it generally takes away from other stats. Now obviously if a piece of gear is overwhelmingly better than what you have, and it just happens to have some resil on it as well, you might as well go for it. However, you shouldn't purposefully seek out resil for your tanking set.
Resil is really only good for PvP. Getting tanking gear with resil on it generally takes away from other stats. Now obviously if a piece of gear is overwhelmingly better than what you have, and it just happens to have some resil on it as well, you might as well go for it. However, you shouldn't purposefully seek out resil for your tanking set.
10 posts
Amazing - bless you.
I am a 64 Pally who just switched to Prot, and the goals and gear laid out in this guide have already become my Grail.
I recognize that I am not your first audience, yet you still have clarified my thinking wonderfully. I wonder if I can beg some advice from you and the gang as to how I kill stuff while I solo (even a small group is easier to figure out). 70 feels a long way off just now.
I keep full health against all but 2 casters, but $%^&, they go down so slowly. I used to be Ret specced with 26% to crit hit from gear ... and the big 2-hander + judgements made fights short. Now, I can bring a novel to each fight.
I will happily accept abuse that this is not the right thread, but these are the smartest posts that I have read for a long time.
Thanks
I am a 64 Pally who just switched to Prot, and the goals and gear laid out in this guide have already become my Grail.
I recognize that I am not your first audience, yet you still have clarified my thinking wonderfully. I wonder if I can beg some advice from you and the gang as to how I kill stuff while I solo (even a small group is easier to figure out). 70 feels a long way off just now.
I keep full health against all but 2 casters, but $%^&, they go down so slowly. I used to be Ret specced with 26% to crit hit from gear ... and the big 2-hander + judgements made fights short. Now, I can bring a novel to each fight.
I will happily accept abuse that this is not the right thread, but these are the smartest posts that I have read for a long time.
Thanks
3 posts
AoE grind. Round up a bunch of melee mobs (minimum of 3, maximum of however many you think you can handle), have ret aura on, judge wisdom and have SoW active (or SoL if your health is going down quickly), then constantly consecrate and holy shield.
The mobs will always go down slowly, but using this method at least 10 of them will go down slowly at the same time which will compensate for the lack of single target dps.
The mobs will always go down slowly, but using this method at least 10 of them will go down slowly at the same time which will compensate for the lack of single target dps.
#75REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 15 2008 at 4:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well, I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm using consecrate, I'm also using Judgement of Wisdom, double dipped (both dropped on my primary target and as a buff) - that's how I keep my mana up.
I was thinking about adding some infos for advanced tanks. It would be some kind of set lists that would display the best currently existing items / enchants... for each slot and each usage:
- total avoidance items
- block value items
- spell power items
- health items
It would count BoK of course, it could help raider tankadins to have a good idea of what could help them as we sometimes have to use different sets for different fights. We could add the total effects of each set on a "normal" specced tankadin.
I haven't begun yet, just wanted to ask you if it was a good idea?
- total avoidance items
- block value items
- spell power items
- health items
It would count BoK of course, it could help raider tankadins to have a good idea of what could help them as we sometimes have to use different sets for different fights. We could add the total effects of each set on a "normal" specced tankadin.
I haven't begun yet, just wanted to ask you if it was a good idea?
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