A couple reasons.
1. Sometimes your poisons just don't proc fast enough. This happens more often than you'd think (I'm beginning to think the proc rate is bugged). When that happens, Mutilate sucks the big one, and Backstab is just fine.
2. There are a lot of elementals in the outlands after level 65 or so. Mutilate sucks quite hard then as well.
3. Sometimes poisons wear off without you noticing. Hey, it happens. When it does, it's nice to be able to still do good DPS.
Is Imp. Backstab necessary for an effective Mutilate build? Not by any stretch. Is the backup nice to have? Most certainly.
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Nooblestick wrote:
A couple reasons.
1. Sometimes your poisons just don't proc fast enough. This happens more often than you'd think (I'm beginning to think the proc rate is bugged). When that happens, Mutilate sucks the big one, and Backstab is just fine.
2. There are a lot of elementals in the outlands after level 65 or so. Mutilate sucks quite hard then as well.
3. Sometimes poisons wear off without you noticing. Hey, it happens. When it does, it's nice to be able to still do good DPS.
Is Imp. Backstab necessary for an effective Mutilate build? Not by any stretch. Is the backup nice to have? Most certainly.
1. Sometimes your poisons just don't proc fast enough. This happens more often than you'd think (I'm beginning to think the proc rate is bugged). When that happens, Mutilate sucks the big one, and Backstab is just fine.
2. There are a lot of elementals in the outlands after level 65 or so. Mutilate sucks quite hard then as well.
3. Sometimes poisons wear off without you noticing. Hey, it happens. When it does, it's nice to be able to still do good DPS.
Is Imp. Backstab necessary for an effective Mutilate build? Not by any stretch. Is the backup nice to have? Most certainly.
Yeah, I actually caught that in a different thread after I asked. I should have just paid more attention before i put points there.
I must say i love this spec though. It's a serious combo builder and just rips stuff apart.
It was a good question to bring up, as I'm willing to bet you're not the first person to wonder about that decision.
But yeah, it's my favorite spec so far, though I've decided to give Combat a go sometime soon. It's going to be hard sacrificing the ability to toss out two 5 CP Eviscerates in about a 6 second window, but I honestly never gave combat much of a chance after I hit 60. With the ludicrous amount of gold you get in the outlands, 50g to respec every couple weeks is nothing.
But yeah, it's my favorite spec so far, though I've decided to give Combat a go sometime soon. It's going to be hard sacrificing the ability to toss out two 5 CP Eviscerates in about a 6 second window, but I honestly never gave combat much of a chance after I hit 60. With the ludicrous amount of gold you get in the outlands, 50g to respec every couple weeks is nothing.
hum reading your guide i thought you were a Shadowstep guy
but you say your favorite is mutilate and on the other thread you posted your build with lots of points in Subtilety but no SS.
did you get tired of it? or is it just that bad in instances?
EDIT: scratch that Nooble i confused moongoose's post with one of yours :)
Edited, Feb 15th 2007 12:21pm by Konuvis
but you say your favorite is mutilate and on the other thread you posted your build with lots of points in Subtilety but no SS.
did you get tired of it? or is it just that bad in instances?
EDIT: scratch that Nooble i confused moongoose's post with one of yours :)
Edited, Feb 15th 2007 12:21pm by Konuvis
Hey guys, you completely skipped over my post. :( I'd really like to hear some more information on Hemo. All the information on these threads seems to be about Mutilate and Shadowstep, not much detail about Hemo and how good it is or isn't.
Thanks,
J
Thanks,
J
In your referral to swords:
I am choosing to grind rep with Aldor because I WANT that sword lol. Could you post a link to wowhead with the type of buld that you're suggesting here? At level 70, I currently have an unbuffed AP of 1232 with blue gear. Does this mean I can not spend the two talent points in Improved Sinister Strike and just rely on Hemo? And also, when does it become beneficial to really put points into Opportunity in a sword build, since the only useable attack to gain the damage bonus is Garrote. With Cheap Shot almost always giving you 3 combo points, I'd say that Opportunity is worthless, but other opinions are welcome.
Nooblestick wrote:
Probably the best weapon to use with PvP, as it allows for high instant attack damage without having to be behind your target or stealthed. Particularly slow swords (2.8 or slower) combined with a high attack power (in the 1000 range) can be used with Hemorrhage with great success.
If you're goind Hemo.. don't bother with Imp SS. Hemorrhage is replacing Sinister Strike anyways.
But nooble.. something to add to your guide, perhaps, when explaining why combat swords is the fastest way to go for leveling solo. I had a very boring bus ride from the coast back to my house.. so I was fiddling with numbers. Here's the very abreviated version of it.
30 seconds of fighting. No poisons, no enchants, weapons with (very) comparable DPS. Level 40, weapons all with 29.1-29.7 DPS. 380 AP. 12% base crit chance, modifiable by talents. Target has infinite life, no dodge chance, no armor, no shield. 25% miss chance has been factored into white damage, and 5% miss chance has been factored into special attacks damage. The damage is calculated from averages. I'm not going to do a comprehensive damage range.
Sub build daggers. (with 5/5 malice, 3/3 imp BS, sub down to prep and such)
In 30s, pulled off 4310 damage. 144 DPS. This is entirely unrealistic, as the target has no effective dodge/parry/armor. But you can use comparatively none the less.
Assasination build Daggers (with 5/5 Opportunity, 2/2 imp sap)
In 30s, pulled off 4650 damage. 155 DPS. Again.. unrealistic, but it's somewhat harder hitting than a 40 sub daggers build.
Combat Swords
In 30s, pulled off 7582(5443 damage to primary target, 2.1k to the secondary target from Blade Fury) damage on two targets and 5443 damage against a single target. That's 253 dps between two targets, and a whopping 181 dps against a single target.
Combat Daggers wasn't even worth looking at. the CP generation for this build at this level is so ABYSMAL it's just... sad. boo hoo..
Combat Swords' 181 dps might not look like much of a difference from 144 dps and 155 dps.. but over thirty seconds, that's a lot of damage you haven't dealt with your dagger. 1k versus a single target, and 2.6k if you've accidentally double-pulled. Which I've found has happened a lot around my level.
Dunno, add it if you think it's relevant. It probably should be boiled down if it is added. I tend to ramble. But there it is.. take it how you'd like. It's useful to me, and it's relevant untill level 55, when an Opportunity-laden Mutilate comes onto the field. I'll probably have that figured out sometime in the next few weeks, as I get closer to -having- mutilate. heheh. T'care
Note/Edit: Keep in mind, the numbers are for comparison. Most monsters this level.. have 30%-45% damage reduction. But the ratio of DPS between the three will still be the same.
Edited, Feb 19th 2007 9:03pm by Banatu
But nooble.. something to add to your guide, perhaps, when explaining why combat swords is the fastest way to go for leveling solo. I had a very boring bus ride from the coast back to my house.. so I was fiddling with numbers. Here's the very abreviated version of it.
30 seconds of fighting. No poisons, no enchants, weapons with (very) comparable DPS. Level 40, weapons all with 29.1-29.7 DPS. 380 AP. 12% base crit chance, modifiable by talents. Target has infinite life, no dodge chance, no armor, no shield. 25% miss chance has been factored into white damage, and 5% miss chance has been factored into special attacks damage. The damage is calculated from averages. I'm not going to do a comprehensive damage range.
Sub build daggers. (with 5/5 malice, 3/3 imp BS, sub down to prep and such)
In 30s, pulled off 4310 damage. 144 DPS. This is entirely unrealistic, as the target has no effective dodge/parry/armor. But you can use comparatively none the less.
Assasination build Daggers (with 5/5 Opportunity, 2/2 imp sap)
In 30s, pulled off 4650 damage. 155 DPS. Again.. unrealistic, but it's somewhat harder hitting than a 40 sub daggers build.
Combat Swords
In 30s, pulled off 7582(5443 damage to primary target, 2.1k to the secondary target from Blade Fury) damage on two targets and 5443 damage against a single target. That's 253 dps between two targets, and a whopping 181 dps against a single target.
Combat Daggers wasn't even worth looking at. the CP generation for this build at this level is so ABYSMAL it's just... sad. boo hoo..
Combat Swords' 181 dps might not look like much of a difference from 144 dps and 155 dps.. but over thirty seconds, that's a lot of damage you haven't dealt with your dagger. 1k versus a single target, and 2.6k if you've accidentally double-pulled. Which I've found has happened a lot around my level.
Dunno, add it if you think it's relevant. It probably should be boiled down if it is added. I tend to ramble. But there it is.. take it how you'd like. It's useful to me, and it's relevant untill level 55, when an Opportunity-laden Mutilate comes onto the field. I'll probably have that figured out sometime in the next few weeks, as I get closer to -having- mutilate. heheh. T'care
Note/Edit: Keep in mind, the numbers are for comparison. Most monsters this level.. have 30%-45% damage reduction. But the ratio of DPS between the three will still be the same.
Edited, Feb 19th 2007 9:03pm by Banatu
@jaynick
theres a few hemo threads floating around, not stickied
do a lil lookin around, they all have hemo in the title, if you dont find what you need... post something and ill try to help ya out, i spent a lot of time as hemo <3
-----
@banato
a fair try indeed, but for a effective comparsion, you gotta make sure your using equal speed for the build
what i mean by this is if a sword is 20 dps 2.6 speed, a comparable dagger is 20 dps 1.7-1.8 speed
both considered slow weapons, but not the slowest
whys this? cuz lets say your comparing a 2.8 sword with ss, to a 1.4 dagger with backstab
the backstab will hit much lower then 1 .8 speed dagger, while the ss is hitting for about as hard as you could at 2.8 speed
hope that was factored into your math <3
Edited, Feb 22nd 2007 10:12am by mongoosexcore
theres a few hemo threads floating around, not stickied
do a lil lookin around, they all have hemo in the title, if you dont find what you need... post something and ill try to help ya out, i spent a lot of time as hemo <3
-----
@banato
a fair try indeed, but for a effective comparsion, you gotta make sure your using equal speed for the build
what i mean by this is if a sword is 20 dps 2.6 speed, a comparable dagger is 20 dps 1.7-1.8 speed
both considered slow weapons, but not the slowest
whys this? cuz lets say your comparing a 2.8 sword with ss, to a 1.4 dagger with backstab
the backstab will hit much lower then 1 .8 speed dagger, while the ss is hitting for about as hard as you could at 2.8 speed
hope that was factored into your math <3
Edited, Feb 22nd 2007 10:12am by mongoosexcore
The dagger is 1.7 speed, the sword was 2.8 speed. The off hand for all of these was a 1.9 speed sword for some poison procs and harsh dps.
But the attacks are normalized, but I can see your concern. Though seeing as those are the best weapons available at the level.. it's a fair trial imo. Since you can't get a higher damage range dagger at that level, and you can't get a higher damage range sword either. /shrug
thanks for the feedback, though. It's always nice ^^
But the attacks are normalized, but I can see your concern. Though seeing as those are the best weapons available at the level.. it's a fair trial imo. Since you can't get a higher damage range dagger at that level, and you can't get a higher damage range sword either. /shrug
thanks for the feedback, though. It's always nice ^^
While the comparison seems fair, it is not. The fact of the matter is that mobs don't have infinite health, and a dagger is going to two-three shot them, bringing the actual battle length very, very close to swords. Double the DPS doesn't matter when the mob is already dead.
The real strengths in combat swords are the powerful cooldowns which can mow through packs of mobs that daggers would shy away from, and the ability to still do 100% damage when a mob is not incapacitated.
The real strengths in combat swords are the powerful cooldowns which can mow through packs of mobs that daggers would shy away from, and the ability to still do 100% damage when a mob is not incapacitated.
Thanks for your help. I did some searching the other day and found a good thread on Hemo. I have actually Re-Spec'd and I must say that it's really pretty awesome, I really dig it. It also seems like group instances / quests really benefit from it because the MOB you gang up on takes more damage from everybody attacking it, or at least that's what it seems like; am I wrong in saying that? I guild member and I were doing Scarlet Monestary the other night just to see how far we could get on our own. Before we had gone in with a 3-man team and we didn't do too well. I re-spec'd Hemo and we ran through some of the sticking points a bit easier.
Very cool!
Very cool!
I agree that combat's power is in it's cooldowns and multiple mobs, nooble. Though at level 38-44.. daggers have a hard time beating swords with killing things faster, even without cooldowns. I tried it at 38, got a level and some with it.. then went to combat swords with the same mobs, same gear and one weapon change (main hand). I was killing things a fair bit faster, but that may just be my experience with them. Side note.. I was killing those mobs in 25-30 seconds with combat swords, and with assasin/sub daggers it was taking me 40+ seconds. It was absolutely useless for a lot of my solo play, simply because of how long it took, and the lack of ability to kill two mobs without taking MASSIVE damage.
PvP is a different story. In PvP either dagger build takes combat swords hands down, even at level 38. You don't need stuns to backstab in pvp, just run at them and jump through them, backstab. ker-bam. Undeniably, I had the most fun in the BG's with assasin daggers that I've ever had.
But my focus is leveling at the moment. Combat swords is (reputably) the strongest leveling build. I'm not convinced, but I don't have enough gold to continually finance all these respecs I'd have to take to test that reputation. So I'm combat swords until I hit outland and find two decent mutilate daggers.
[Ramble]
At level 45 however..Seal Fate comes into play with Opportunity, and that's where it starts making it up imo. I'm working on the same sort of comparison as I did before, only for Level 60 and some level between 48 and 56. I'll do seventy as well, though by then you should know what works for you anwyays, and don't need a comparison like this ;). I might post it if I find something interesting, though it'll probably just be numbers behind the well-accepted trends that are in the Updated Rogue Guide anyways! heh.
Meh. I'm doing these comparisons for my own enlightenment. I'm posting them here in case people have the same curiosities that I do, but lack the free time to punch it all into a spreadsheet.
[/ramble]
But thanks nooble, none the less. It's good when my mistakes are pointed out, I know that people are actually reading it for one.. and secondly I know to correct something if I'm doing it wrong. =D
PvP is a different story. In PvP either dagger build takes combat swords hands down, even at level 38. You don't need stuns to backstab in pvp, just run at them and jump through them, backstab. ker-bam. Undeniably, I had the most fun in the BG's with assasin daggers that I've ever had.
But my focus is leveling at the moment. Combat swords is (reputably) the strongest leveling build. I'm not convinced, but I don't have enough gold to continually finance all these respecs I'd have to take to test that reputation. So I'm combat swords until I hit outland and find two decent mutilate daggers.
[Ramble]
At level 45 however..Seal Fate comes into play with Opportunity, and that's where it starts making it up imo. I'm working on the same sort of comparison as I did before, only for Level 60 and some level between 48 and 56. I'll do seventy as well, though by then you should know what works for you anwyays, and don't need a comparison like this ;). I might post it if I find something interesting, though it'll probably just be numbers behind the well-accepted trends that are in the Updated Rogue Guide anyways! heh.
Meh. I'm doing these comparisons for my own enlightenment. I'm posting them here in case people have the same curiosities that I do, but lack the free time to punch it all into a spreadsheet.
[/ramble]
But thanks nooble, none the less. It's good when my mistakes are pointed out, I know that people are actually reading it for one.. and secondly I know to correct something if I'm doing it wrong. =D
Quote:
I was killing those mobs in 25-30 seconds with combat swords, and with assasin/sub daggers it was taking me 40+ seconds.
Quick suggestion: Fight weaker stuff. You should never be spending nearly that much time fighting one thing. At 60 I made the effort to actually compare the time it took to kill stuff before I respecced. Combat Swords took about 6 seconds to kill one mob, Mutilate took about 8 seconds. Shadowstep was killing those same mobs in about 2, but its DPS turns to **** as soon as you break stealth, so the high health mobs that I couldn't come close to one-shotting in BC were a problem.
5 posts
Does the extra chance to attack for the sword skill proc on both hands i.e. i effectively double my change my dual-wielding swords? Or is it just the mainhand?
Both mainhand and offhand, and I think all the extra attacks go to your mainhand. If this is correct, then having a Thrash Blade in the main hand has even higher benefits, especially with a nice proc based enchant like Fiery.
Yeah, nooble. I probably should be fighting weaker stuff.. but I've torn through all of my 'go kill weak ****' quests three or four levels before those mobs are weak. /shrug.
I'm also only level 45 at the moment, and.. yeah. I'm out of excuses. I'm a bit slow. Takes me about 7 hours a ding at the moment, lol. Combat swords is the best for sustained damage.. but shiiit, am I bad at playing wow. Good in theory, bad in practice. I'm getting better though, slowly. Pulling out 120 dps at the moment, which isn't so bad I s'pose.
If you have any suggestions for these mythical "weaker mobs" I should be killing, fire away. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Because.. right now I'm on The Hinterlands, orange Feralis/Tanaris quests. Everything else is just gone, or you need a group to resonably finish. Cough. STV. Cough.
Definately open to suggestions.
I'm also only level 45 at the moment, and.. yeah. I'm out of excuses. I'm a bit slow. Takes me about 7 hours a ding at the moment, lol. Combat swords is the best for sustained damage.. but shiiit, am I bad at playing wow. Good in theory, bad in practice. I'm getting better though, slowly. Pulling out 120 dps at the moment, which isn't so bad I s'pose.
If you have any suggestions for these mythical "weaker mobs" I should be killing, fire away. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Because.. right now I'm on The Hinterlands, orange Feralis/Tanaris quests. Everything else is just gone, or you need a group to resonably finish. Cough. STV. Cough.
Definately open to suggestions.
actually you don't need a group at all :)
although it gets trickier I just did some of the final quests in SV today.
.i.e. the bucaneers when you have to kill the captains and i soloed it with my 45 rogue.
Careful pulling is key and keeping BF and AR for emergencies
didn't even use a potion and my gouge was resisted when i wanted to bnadage.......:/
although it gets trickier I just did some of the final quests in SV today.
.i.e. the bucaneers when you have to kill the captains and i soloed it with my 45 rogue.
Careful pulling is key and keeping BF and AR for emergencies
didn't even use a potion and my gouge was resisted when i wanted to bnadage.......:/
Yeah, but there's a few quests that are definately group quests. Zanzil's essence, or whatever it is, is one. I couldn't have done that one if I hadn't had a shammy with me at the time.
Then again, I'm definately not the best at pulling mobs away from a group.
Edited, Feb 27th 2007 1:56pm by Banatu
Then again, I'm definately not the best at pulling mobs away from a group.
Edited, Feb 27th 2007 1:56pm by Banatu
Bravo! Cleanly written, thoroughly explained, and intelligently weaved together! I have read many guides for jobs, classes, quests, missions... you name it. Even since Nintendo Power days, and this is by far the most enjoyable read.
Well over ninty percent of all guides and walkthroughs I have read. Leave out the small details. The details that simple minds like me fail to grasp, at times. This is one of the very few guides, that did not leave those small, yet important details out. I am very grateful for your skill and attention to detail.
I was able to read and understand your explanations to an extreme degree. Thank you very much for this excellent guide to the Rouge class. This has been extremely helpful, thus far and I am sure will be in the future. Great Job!
Hats off!
Ps, forgive any oddly shapen sentences and what have you. Been working for over twenty hours. All work and no play, make Jack and dull boy........
@Banatu
I soloed the Zanzils quests too but it was tough.
do you use poisons? cause they really help
I soloed the Zanzils quests too but it was tough.
do you use poisons? cause they really help
Generally? I don't. I probably should, but they never come to mind at the time.
Also.. question. I'm at 46 right now, and all of my 'zomg obvious' choices seem dried up to me. Here's my current spec.. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to push deeper into assassination to eventually pick up Lethiality again, or is it smarter to go deeper and pick up the deep combat stuff?
Agression, Vitality, Combat Potency and Suprise attacks all look somewhat appealing to me, but I have no idea if they're better bang for my buck than deeper into lethiality.
Advice would be rather.. welcomed. I'm respeccing to mutilate once I hit 55 and find some decent daggers.. if they're really lacking in what I find I may just wait till outland to do that. /shrug?
Also.. question. I'm at 46 right now, and all of my 'zomg obvious' choices seem dried up to me. Here's my current spec.. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to push deeper into assassination to eventually pick up Lethiality again, or is it smarter to go deeper and pick up the deep combat stuff?
Agression, Vitality, Combat Potency and Suprise attacks all look somewhat appealing to me, but I have no idea if they're better bang for my buck than deeper into lethiality.
Advice would be rather.. welcomed. I'm respeccing to mutilate once I hit 55 and find some decent daggers.. if they're really lacking in what I find I may just wait till outland to do that. /shrug?
Hmm yes you should definetely use poisons.
I generally have Crippling on my fast OH for running mobs (it really helps managing aggro)
and if i'm going to fight hard (bucaneers, Zanzil) i put instant IV on my MH which has 80procs for about 60 damage (that's not negligeable)
as far as your build goes i have the same except i have Aggression (in which i would sugget you put points) and haven't maxed out malice yet.
what i plan to do is max out malice is put points in Imp Eviscerate
then probably 2 points in Ruthlessness so i can put the point in Relentless Strikes ( i love this talent can't live without it) and then put the last point in Ruthlessness.
after the i'll probably max lethality
I generally have Crippling on my fast OH for running mobs (it really helps managing aggro)
and if i'm going to fight hard (bucaneers, Zanzil) i put instant IV on my MH which has 80procs for about 60 damage (that's not negligeable)
as far as your build goes i have the same except i have Aggression (in which i would sugget you put points) and haven't maxed out malice yet.
what i plan to do is max out malice is put points in Imp Eviscerate
then probably 2 points in Ruthlessness so i can put the point in Relentless Strikes ( i love this talent can't live without it) and then put the last point in Ruthlessness.
after the i'll probably max lethality
Mmm. Is it worth going down combat far enough to get Combat Potency and Suprise Attacks?
I'm grinding up levels at the moment, because it's faster than questing for me. Five hours of half-assed grinding and guild chat, versus 13 hours of questing, for a ding. :3
I'm grinding up levels at the moment, because it's faster than questing for me. Five hours of half-assed grinding and guild chat, versus 13 hours of questing, for a ding. :3
Ok, im not entirely sure where your getting those 40+ second times, I kill mobs and players that are higher then my rogue withing 10-20 seconds at the max. 43 undead rogue with Coldrage dagger in MH and Sword of omen in secondary, Sub spec.
As far as pvp goes? I took out a 46 rogue gnome last night first time, ambushed him for 800 dmg, second time he ambushed me and i still killed him. in SM cath i crit Mograine for 1K+ ambush. Most mobs off a ambush last under 10 seconds..if they have alot of health i just rupture kite them.
As far as pvp goes? I took out a 46 rogue gnome last night first time, ambushed him for 800 dmg, second time he ambushed me and i still killed him. in SM cath i crit Mograine for 1K+ ambush. Most mobs off a ambush last under 10 seconds..if they have alot of health i just rupture kite them.
Mmmm. That was against elementals, mind. They had upwards of 40% damage reduction, and fights took 40 seconds, max. I'm at the ogres in southern Tanaris at the moment, I'm having a ball. They're 2-3 levels above the feralis ones, have less health, same armor.. it's definately a worthy grinding place. Mageweave drops like candy, too. I'll get around a stack of mageweave for every bar of xp. Which goes at the Ah for 3g, more or less guaranteed pricing. It's not that bad. Pickpocket + looting corpses nets me about 6 silver a kill, too.
Dunno, it's more profitable for me than my disfunctional questing. =D
But these things go down in <20 seconds right now. Distract comes back up just in time to use it on the next mob, and that's after restealthing and switching to regen gear. I'm really not complaining, I figure it's good for a few levels worth.
Dunno, it's more profitable for me than my disfunctional questing. =D
But these things go down in <20 seconds right now. Distract comes back up just in time to use it on the next mob, and that's after restealthing and switching to regen gear. I'm really not complaining, I figure it's good for a few levels worth.
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