MMO Christian Ministy (was forum=10) (was forum=28)Follow

"Data" is not the plural of "anecdote".

Universal Truth is a lot like Friendly Fire.

It isn't.

It's amusing that nearly everyone refers to their own belief set, whatever it may be, as "Truth". You never really hear anyone going around going "Well personally, and this is a load of baseless crap, but what I think is..."

The Atheist, the Scientologist, the Christian, the Muslim, the Wiccan, the Jainist, the Jew, and the Hinduist all believe in the "Truth". They just believe in different Truths, each of which insist that all other "Truths" are *********

This was on the front page of Wikipedia and seems especially relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada

See: Pascal's Wager


I never actually went to momocon before I graduated, despite being roommates one year with one of the man planners of it (technically the BF of one of the main planners but w/e). I never understood why they always held it spring break week when nobody was there. :/

Can't believe I read through 5 pages without stumbling across a single philosophical argument for either side that would be found in a remedial freshman philosophy text until the very last post. . . and its probably the weakest that either side could possibly site. Edit: speaking of the post two posts up now. Spent too long typing this I reckon.

A bunch of silly analogies, a ton of claims to truth, and quite a few improbable scenerios. . . but its all just your opinion (both sides) because nobody has even called upon the most rudimentory points that philosophers and theologians use when defending their positions.

Instead of repeating what is just your opinion for the 14th different time (with a fresh analogy of course), why not pick up a book that enhances your way of thinking? Then maybe pick one up that challenges it? Some of the assertions made in this thread aren't just opinions. They are totally baseless. The value of life currently being reduced by belief in life later? I haven't run across a professor in my 11 years of graduate study that would champion that cause. Likewise, motivation for good deeds most certainly plays a role in how benevolent that act is (assuming that we are free moral agents and have such a thing as choice to begin with).


You want a universal truth? Here it is: Nobody has ever, is currently, or will ever change their mind about something as foundational to one's self as the idea of God as a result of something they read on a messageboard dedicated to a video game. So instead of beating our heads against the wall to try and 'prove the other guy wrong', why not pick up a book or search out a group that will enrich and challenge us?

Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:51am by BarberofSeville

Edit 2: Not fixing spelling because its too late.

Edited, Sep 20th 2008 3:16am by BarberofSeville

I understand where you're coming from, CoalHeart. (I like the Psalms and the Song of Solomon, though obviously I don't agree with the underlying theology.) However, it's not quite as simple as the OT being obsolete. Christ did say in one of the gospels that he was "bringing a new law," but the OT is kept as part of the bible for a reason.

Part of it was to maintain the prophecies that supposedly foretold Christ's coming. A larger part was that Christianity has always considered itself the true follow-up to Judaism, so to speak. The books of Genesis and Exodus in particular are still considered very important to Christianity. Can you honestly say that the story of Adam and Eve or the story of Moses aren't integral parts of the Christian belief?

Then we come to Leviticus, and the reason I'm not really satisfied with "what people believe doesn't matter" style arguments. Modern Christian leaders still use the injunctions in Leviticus as justification for their prejudice against homosexuals. They also use lines from the OT to justify ordering people not to **********, a perfectly healthy and natural thing to do. The story of Noah's children has been used to justify any number of atrocities committed against black people. Many OT verses are used as justification for misogyny, though a lot of Paul's NT stuff is worse in that regard. And so on...

Sorry, but religion is not simply a matter of people's personal beliefs they keep to themselves. If that was the case I'd have no problem with Christianity, other than the fact that it's all pretty ridiculous. Christianity is used as a justification for all sorts of bigotry. It's been used to justify brutal wars of aggression. It's worst tenets are still influential in the running of several world governments, including the US. Hateful bastards like Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell have the President's ear whenever they wish. In short, it affects me and the people I care about.

While the loudest Christian preachers spend more time yelling about verses from Leviticus than about the Beatitudes, the OT is very much a part of Christian theology.

If you're a Christian who actually follows the words of Christ, loves your neighbor, and tries to do good in the world, good for you. Frankly though, you're not doing a hell of a lot the quiet the bigots and haters in your ranks. If you won't shout them down, I will, because those bastards certainly aren't going to stop working against me.

A couple more notes: Yes, lots of religions are just as bad, if not worse. Islam is the prime culprit here, and it's worse than Christianity in nearly every way I've noted here. Luckily for me, they have no power in my government, so there's no concern about lessening their influence over my life. Hinduism promotes horrifying caste-based bigotry, though to its credit the Indian government has done a lot to try to squash that out.

Also, this post only covers the immediate effects Christianity has over the way our society is run. I also happen to think that encouraging people to believe patently untrue nonsense from the cradle to the grave leads to a less rational society in general. People aren't being taught to think critically, they're being taught to just believe whatever an authority figure tells you to believe, and it seems to me the last several years of American history show just how dangerous it is when the population is encouraged to swallow any bullsh*t that's crapped out from on high.

If the US was 80% Jain that would be much less of a problem.

EDIT: Just for the record, yes, I'm bored. My prayers for G-d to send me bar money went unanswered yet again.

Edited, Sep 20th 2008 2:28am by MrSenethSomed

If by last several you mean about 600 years, then yeah. But that's only American history. You can go back millions of years and pick any country/society if you want and you'll come to the same conclusion. People follow unquestioningly: Bad shit happens.

Honestly, posturing and ad hominem arguments aside, didn't one of the Admins make a post a few weeks ago pointing out that we're all human, there are things beyond the game that we sometimes want to discuss...and that there are two perfectly appropriate forums here on Alla for doing so?

This thread could easily be moved into OoT by an Admin, and can just as easily have a pointer post left in its stead to allow people to easily track it down.

Though half the posts seem better suited to The Asylum. But that's another discussion entirely.

*Minor edit for Catwho: "Swiiiiirliiiieeees..."*

Edited, Sep 20th 2008 1:49am by Greenray

This just contradicts everything that you've been saying. For a while now you've been saying that people who believe in an afterlife probably have some deep seeded fear of death and refuse to acknowledge their mortality, but then go on to say the most common response you receive is "well I'd just kill myself"? Why the hell would someone kill themselves if they are as afraid of death as you claim them to be?

I'm a Christian and I don't dwell on the afterlife at all. While I do feel like it exists, I don't let my beliefs control my actions. If I decide to help someone it's because my gut instinct tells me its the right thing to do, not because "oh man, this might get me a better chance to get into heaven!!". Any real Christian knows that you do the right thing because, it's just that....the right thing. You don't do things just because you hope to find eternal bliss in the afterlife.

damn I was hoping my rate down would sub default the thread.

tired of all these people high and mighty think their own religion has anything to do with the real god. Plenty of evidence to support the idea that their might be a god however so many people actually think that they follow a religion that has anything to do with god.

Nobody even knows for sure if their is a god ok. No true religion would be based on faith. Because if a religion that did not require faith emerged, one where you can freely speak with god and he answers your questions and other people can witness this, one where the scientific community shows observable proof that it is in fact a god and that he does in fact exist, it would replace all faith based religions in a heart beat. Sure some people would ***** but after some frogs from the sky or something most people would pretty much shut up.

Thus all faith based religions are not ultimate in nature because they cannot be. A true religion has yet to show itself.

No existing religion has anything to do with the real god if he exists. All the bibles are written by people. People.. that's right I said it.

This whole thread is garbage LOL..

In before the horribly late lock and/or move.

5 pages? of a thread that is not only flamebait in nature, but wholly and entirely off topic for the forum it was posted in? The admins must be asleep at the wheel this week...

Faith, by definition of the bible, is the "assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." (Heb. 11:1) Explain to me how this is any different than the theory of evolution?

You have the entire universe and everything in it as evidence of something, the question is what? Big bang? Intelligent design? Evolution? I believe that an intelligent creator created us and the universe, and the remarkable order of which things have been designed despite the ubiquitous entropy of the elements that surround us is my evidence to support it. Scientific theories of evolution and big bang haven't exactly done any better than that.

Because its observable
If you work with animals if you study how organisms work you SEE IT FOR YOUR SELF. Zero Faith required. ANYONE who has done any kind of work with animals for any amount of time. Breading new types of dogs.

Do you have a pet dog?
You have witnessed Evolution for yourself.



Well you see thats not the part I am saying is wrong.
If you read what I said I said all faith based religions are the problem.

There IS evidence to support the idea that there is a god. Even the scientific community might refer to it as "the god particle".

We are here for SOME reason but nobody, I repeat, NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE WHY.

However the connection between ALL, not some, ALL known religions is that they have absolutely ZERO to do with the real god if it exists. They are all extrapolated from random things that may or may not have happened. Nothing with any existing religion is even remotely true.

No true religion can be based on faith. Faith is weak because if a true religion that did not require faith emerged all of the faith based religions would suffer an incredible blow. Thus all known faith based religions are weak in that they could not stand up if god ever did emerge.

Edited, Sep 20th 2008 12:48pm by thorazinekizzez