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OMFG Pandaren? I'm quitting! And here's why...Follow

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#77 Oct 25 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
someproteinguy
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Kanngarnix wrote:
selebrin wrote:
ElMuneco wrote:

From my perspective, I'm not at war with (the social and genetic group) Orcs, I'm at war with (the political organization) Orcs. It's just that, in simplifying it for the game context, the two groups are pretty much comprised of the same people.


Interestingly, as shown by Stonetalon horde-side Garrosh cliffs orcs who see things that way. He's ambitious, and he fights the Alliance, but he's no fan of Stupid either.


Actually seems to have some moral standards too. He seemed quite disgusted after watching Sylvanas having the valkyrs raise some more corpses. Just a glimpse before realizinng the threat.


And Varian has had compassion too in the past:

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Muradin Bronzebeard gasps for air.
Muradin Bronzebeard says: That was Saurfang's boy - the Horde commander at the Wrath Gate. Such a tragic end...
Muradin Bronzebeard says: What in the... There, in the distance!
A Horde Zeppelin flies up to the rise
Muradin Bronzebeard yells: Soldiers, fall in! Looks like the Horde are comin' to take another shot!
The Zeppelin docks, and High Overlord Saurfang hops out, confronting the Alliance soldiers and Muradin
Muradin Bronzebeard says: Don't force me hand, orc. We can't let ye pass.
High Overlord Saurfang says: Behind you lies the body of my only son. Nothing will keep me from him.
Muradin Bronzebeard says: I... I can't do it. Get back on yer ship and we'll spare yer life.
A mage portal from Stormwind appears between the two and Varian Wrynn and Jaina Proudmoore emerge
King Varian Wrynn says: Stand down, Muradin. Let a grieving father pass.
High Overlord Saurfang walks over to his son and kneels before his son's body.
High Overlord Saurfang says: [Orcish] No'ku kil zil'nok ha tar.
Higher Overlord Saurfang picks up the body of his son and walks over towards Varian
High Overlord Saurfang says: I will not forget this... kindness. I thank you, Highness
King Varian Wrynn says: I... I was not at the Wrath Gate, but the soldiers who survived told me much of what happened. Your son fought with honor. He died a hero's death. He deserves a hero's burial.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore cries.
King Varian Wrynn says: Jaina? Why are you crying?
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: It was nothing, your majesty. Just... I'm proud of my king.
King Varian Wrynn says: Bah! Muradin, secure the deck and prepare our soldiers for an assault on the upper citadel. I'll send out another regiment from Stormwind.
Muradin Bronzebeard says: Right away, yer majesty!


I'd be more afraid of Muradin... Smiley: lol
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#78 Oct 25 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, being turned into diamond kind of makes him a non-issue now. =x

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To slap the label "racism" onto the in-game conflict seems to be diluting a very real and tragic problem.


This I'm very much inclined to agree with.
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#79 Oct 25 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wonder Gem PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Well, being turned into diamond kind of makes him a non-issue now. =x


Old Ironforge was merely a setback. Smiley: sly

Smiley: lol
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#80 Oct 25 2011 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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#81 Oct 25 2011 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Old Ironforge was merely a setback. Smiley: sly


"So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain."
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#82 Oct 25 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, but this is after he ordered the genocide of Gilneas. So I'm not inclined to actually praise him for drawing the line at necromancy.


Actually.. he didnt. It was Sylvanas who wanted to use the plague, and Garrosh simply didn't have the guts to oppose her. This part is nicely wrapped up in the Sylvanas short story that was put out not too long ago.

She is a major problem for him. He needs her forces to pursue his war plans against the Alliance - whaterver his motives might be - yet he knows that with every dead soldier on either side Sylvanas will become even more powerful.

THAT conflict is sure to be part of the expansion.
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#83 Oct 25 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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Kanngarnix wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, but this is after he ordered the genocide of Gilneas. So I'm not inclined to actually praise him for drawing the line at necromancy.


Actually.. he didnt. It was Sylvanas who wanted to use the plague, and Garrosh simply didn't have the guts to oppose her. This part is nicely wrapped up in the Sylvanas short story that was put out not too long ago.

She is a major problem for him. He needs her forces to pursue his war plans against the Alliance - whaterver his motives might be - yet he knows that with every dead soldier on either side Sylvanas will become even more powerful.

THAT conflict is sure to be part of the expansion.


Wait, so they completely retconned the storyline AFTER they released it in this expansion? Can you link me that story?
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#84 Oct 25 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
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I'm thinking he's referring to this.
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#85 Oct 25 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Good
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Ah, I see. It's not a retcon at all then. Garrosh was absolutely in favor of the genocide of Gilneas. The fact that the Forsaken had used the Plague to accomplish it was never a sore point for me--it's almost kinder than committing genocide by the sword (though I say that knowing full well that we are talking about something so atrocious that the distinction is moot).

That short story shows that Garrosh had absolute disgust for the Gilnean humans, feeling they were cowards for refusing to help "their allies." And this isn't exactly true--Gilneas DID fight in the war, they didn't pull out of the Alliance until after the Horde had been defeated. Plus, they were the most powerful nation in during the Second War, so a significant bulk of the fighting was done on their backs. But, after putting so much into the war, they didn't want the burden of managing the internment camps, so they pulled out. Plus, the Alliance had been infiltrated by the Black Dragonflight and split them apart. So Genn isolated his people to protect them from the corruption of the Alliance, not of Orcs.

ANYWAY, back to the story... Garrosh is quite set on taking Gilneas (and it largely seems to be because he hates them--no other strategic reason is really mentioned). In the game, Sylvanas assures Garrosh that the invasion will be successful. Rather, this story actually suggests that Garrosh was more involved in the battle than I realized--his personal troops were involved in the battle from the start. They HAD to have known that they were attacking civilians. The method of execution was hardly a matter of consideration.

Remember, the units attacking the docks where NEs were carrying away the citizens were being attacked by Garrosh's personal guard, not by Forsaken.
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#86 Oct 26 2011 at 4:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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War... War never changes.

Gilneas was a major military threat to the Horde. Garrosh probably suspected the Gilneans would join the Alliance at some point, giving Stormwind access to a heavily fortified (Greymane Wall) position close to the Horde territory.

Stormwind would be able to ship its army to Gilneas and attack Undercity, thereby gaining control over the zeppelin towers and Horde reinforcements, before the Horde could assemble a proper defensive force.

Once Undercity had been taken, the Alliance would have another strategically dangerous position. The Alliance could move a secondary force up through Eastern Plaguelands and would be able to do a pincer maneuver and trap the Blood Elves on their peninsula.

In short, Gilneas, if not taken, could lead to the Horde losing the Eastern Kingdoms.

As for attacking civilians, it's likely not out of cruelty he did it. A large army relies on civilians to maintain it. Cooks, surgeons, smiths, whores... vital to maintaining a large military force. Attacking the civilians not only prevents the maintenance of the army, but also breaks the spirit of the populace, thereby crushing any potential resistance before it builds up.

Attacking civilians to break a resistance isn't uncommon in warfare. Today it's frowned upon because we like to think of war as two military forces attacking each other. We don't have to look further back than the end of World War II to find this method being used to break a resistance. The US bombed Japan and they surrendered.

True neutrality doesn't apply to war. You choose your side, even if indirectly through apathy. If you're not with us, you're against us, etc.

War is hell.
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#87 Oct 26 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra, you're....green!!!

And Idiggory, you are so vehemently opposed to Garrosh's actions, but that's still not enough to make you join the war on the side of the Alliance? Sounds to me like you're just looking for an excuse not to like the new expansion.

Edited, Oct 26th 2011 8:57am by Bigdaddyjug
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#88 Oct 26 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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I'm green da ba dee daba die...
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#89 Oct 26 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Today it's frowned upon because we like to think of war as two military forces attacking each other.
Attacking your own civilian institutions (schools, hospitals, water treatment facilities, religious buildings) during the night and coming back during the day to tell those same civilians that those invaders can't protect them like they can is a common tactic to this day.
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#90 Oct 26 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, same tactic applies to posting here.
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#91 Oct 26 2011 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mazra, you're....green!!!

And Idiggory, you are so vehemently opposed to Garrosh's actions, but that's still not enough to make you join the war on the side of the Alliance? Sounds to me like you're just looking for an excuse not to like the new expansion.

Edited, Oct 26th 2011 8:57am by Bigdaddyjug


I hate Varian enough as well that it offsets it. :P
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#92 Oct 26 2011 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm green da ba dee daba die...


I would have gone more the Kermit the Frog route.
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#93 Oct 26 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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For Bigdaddyjug.

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#94 Oct 26 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Mazra wrote:
I'm green da ba dee daba die...


I would have gone more the Kermit the Frog route.



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#95 Oct 26 2011 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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I played both videos one second apart and it completely blew my mind.
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#96 Oct 26 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I played both videos one second apart and it completely blew my mind.


How bout this one for a flashback? Smiley: smile



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#97 Oct 26 2011 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm still trying to get over the fact that Mazra just digivolved. I guess 30k+ post counts aren't completely immobile.
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#98 Oct 26 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish wrote:
I'm still trying to get over the fact that Mazra just digivolved. I guess 30k+ post counts aren't completely immobile.


I'm betting his karma was like .0003 away from it for the past 20k or so. :P
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Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#99 Oct 26 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I played both videos one second apart and it completely blew my mind.


It got disturbing near the end where they would appear to work soo well together. Smiley: lol
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#100 Oct 26 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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I will be sure to check this out when I get home and can actually see the videos.
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#101 Oct 27 2011 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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selebrin wrote:
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Love it! Made me want to read Thud! again.
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