Probably a weird question, but I'm curious.
If you find yourself running a PuG heroic, where do you expect a group member to be at a minimum on their DPS levels, assuming they've read the fights, are adept at avoiding hazards, can CC like a champ and have at least the minimum ilvl for said dungeon without being in all PvP gear.
This goes for both standard heroics and troll heroics.
I ask because, as my own worst critic, I have this mental block about running heroics. When I took my break, I was at ilvl 339 or so, popping out around 10k in dungeons(more on bosses or when the RNG loved me). Thanks to the Molten Front, Private Thrall and a BoE or two, I'm at 351 now, so I suspect it's gone up significantly, though I haven't run much of anything aside from Coren Direbrew to be sure.
With the LFR tool coming in, I'm also curious about raids. At which point do you start shaking your head at a group member's crappy DPS?
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Imo, anything below 10k dps for any Cata raid is poor.
Below that is a clear sign of being vastly undergeared (a pugged 110k hp L84 bear tank with ICC gear simply didnt cut it when I did Ahune for Midsummer Festival /groan), ungemmed/not enchanted, crappy rotation (or lack of one), or any combination of these.
Hell, I still see an occasional 4k dps in current regular Cata heroics and I'm facepalming.
Heroics... with Cata quest gear (and needing heroic 346 gear), some effort on -any- gems/chants, and all else being competently doable, I don't see any problem expecting 6-10k dps. And yes, I try to take into account classes/specs may vary, especially with group buffs.
Below that is **** poor performance for any of the previously mentioned reasons. Or perhaps the dreaded "carry me" crap.
Below that is a clear sign of being vastly undergeared (a pugged 110k hp L84 bear tank with ICC gear simply didnt cut it when I did Ahune for Midsummer Festival /groan), ungemmed/not enchanted, crappy rotation (or lack of one), or any combination of these.
Hell, I still see an occasional 4k dps in current regular Cata heroics and I'm facepalming.
Heroics... with Cata quest gear (and needing heroic 346 gear), some effort on -any- gems/chants, and all else being competently doable, I don't see any problem expecting 6-10k dps. And yes, I try to take into account classes/specs may vary, especially with group buffs.
Below that is **** poor performance for any of the previously mentioned reasons. Or perhaps the dreaded "carry me" crap.
Azaza wrote:
Imo, anything below 10k dps for any Cata raid is poor.
Azaza wrote:
Heroics... with Cata quest gear (and needing heroic 346 gear), some effort on -any- gems/chants, and all else being competently doable, I don't see any problem expecting 6-10k dps. And yes, I try to take into account classes/specs may vary, especially with group buffs.
Below that is **** poor performance for any of the previously mentioned reasons. Or perhaps the dreaded "carry me" crap.
Below that is **** poor performance for any of the previously mentioned reasons. Or perhaps the dreaded "carry me" crap.
I stopped looking for the most part. DPS can be all over the place depending on class, pack size if if's trash, speed of pulls, mob abilities (like the nasty cyclone in VP) and whatnot. Another very important factor is overall dps of the group, which really can mess up numbers big time.
Coren is a wonderful example. My bear druid, despite having quite crappy gear, does somewhere in between 23-25K IF Coren dies within my 25 seconds of Berserk. If it takes longer, I drop way below 20K.
More time in between pulls means more cooldowns available over the course of the instance. Constantly being in combat without necessarily hurting things much drops overall numbers. If trash dies or a boss changes phases before bleeds or poisons have much of a chance to do damage, numbers go down dramatically.
I tend to keep my votekick cooldown for the "GOGOGO"-kids. DPS is not a factor, unless there is actually somebody who has set himself on "follow" and doesn't do anything at all. I personally know quite a few people who are not exactly gifted when it comes to skills, but I don't see myself in the position of ruining the gaming experience for them by holding them against certain benchmarks.
Raids have their own ruleset. If there is an enrage timer, you know exactly how much everyone in the group has to deliver. If you don't have people to make up for what others are lacking, there is very little that can be done other than replacing those who don't meet the minimum.
Coren is a wonderful example. My bear druid, despite having quite crappy gear, does somewhere in between 23-25K IF Coren dies within my 25 seconds of Berserk. If it takes longer, I drop way below 20K.
More time in between pulls means more cooldowns available over the course of the instance. Constantly being in combat without necessarily hurting things much drops overall numbers. If trash dies or a boss changes phases before bleeds or poisons have much of a chance to do damage, numbers go down dramatically.
I tend to keep my votekick cooldown for the "GOGOGO"-kids. DPS is not a factor, unless there is actually somebody who has set himself on "follow" and doesn't do anything at all. I personally know quite a few people who are not exactly gifted when it comes to skills, but I don't see myself in the position of ruining the gaming experience for them by holding them against certain benchmarks.
Raids have their own ruleset. If there is an enrage timer, you know exactly how much everyone in the group has to deliver. If you don't have people to make up for what others are lacking, there is very little that can be done other than replacing those who don't meet the minimum.
I'm tanking mostly. Here are my thoughts:
1. Tank Damage = Unimportant.
2. Healer damage = Priests only = Unimportant
3. DPS:
Regulars ~ Anything goes so long as you aren't auto-attacking
Heroics ~ Weak classes (Ret) ~ about 8k
~ Strong classes (Arcane) ~ about 10k
Troll ~ Weak classes (Ret) ~ 10k
~ Strong classes (Arcane) ~ 15k
Raids ~ Everyone should be >12k.
~ There's always a Spriest, Arcane, DK, or druid that's throwing the curve higher, but mid to low teens is my
"Benchmark"
~ On Valarion (Twin dragons) - I have been the tank who switches to DPS. I do about 10k as Ret. So - not good
but not horrible either.
In the end though - it's all about Damage Done.
1. Tank Damage = Unimportant.
2. Healer damage = Priests only = Unimportant
3. DPS:
Regulars ~ Anything goes so long as you aren't auto-attacking
Heroics ~ Weak classes (Ret) ~ about 8k
~ Strong classes (Arcane) ~ about 10k
Troll ~ Weak classes (Ret) ~ 10k
~ Strong classes (Arcane) ~ 15k
Raids ~ Everyone should be >12k.
~ There's always a Spriest, Arcane, DK, or druid that's throwing the curve higher, but mid to low teens is my
"Benchmark"
~ On Valarion (Twin dragons) - I have been the tank who switches to DPS. I do about 10k as Ret. So - not good
but not horrible either.
In the end though - it's all about Damage Done.
IIRC, the median for pre-nerf Firelands kills should float around 13-15k average per DPS assuming 2 tanks, 2 heals (total damage / 6 / time). Most of the raids I've been in lately are 3-5k higher.
I think it's important to not overly concern yourself with a specific number though (we don't have Brutallus style fights anymore). Execution is more important. If you're not lagging behind the rest of the DPS in your group by a significant amount, I wouldn't stress. Focus on learning your role in the fights and being a good team member. That's far more important. Have fun! =)
I think it's important to not overly concern yourself with a specific number though (we don't have Brutallus style fights anymore). Execution is more important. If you're not lagging behind the rest of the DPS in your group by a significant amount, I wouldn't stress. Focus on learning your role in the fights and being a good team member. That's far more important. Have fun! =)
What Therion said. For regular heroics, I think 8k is acceptable and for trolls, 10k is acceptable. That said, I'm not going to give someone **** for lower DPS as long as the bad guys are dying and we aren't.
For T11/Argaloth raids, I think 10k is an acceptable starting point. If people are below that, I start to grumble, but again I won't say anything as long as **** is dying.
Also keep in mind though, there are some fights in Firelands where dps can be wonky. For Rhyolith, the only good dps is going to be people on the adds. Melee dps is most likely going to suck because of the armor issue. For Alys, tank dps and flier dps is going to skyrocket, and everyone else is going to be meh at best.
For T11/Argaloth raids, I think 10k is an acceptable starting point. If people are below that, I start to grumble, but again I won't say anything as long as **** is dying.
Also keep in mind though, there are some fights in Firelands where dps can be wonky. For Rhyolith, the only good dps is going to be people on the adds. Melee dps is most likely going to suck because of the armor issue. For Alys, tank dps and flier dps is going to skyrocket, and everyone else is going to be meh at best.
I think you guys are misinterpreting me. I know better than to worry too much about DPS while learning fights(I raid led for almost two expansions). I want a benchmark of about where I should be before even entering the instance. 
The idea is that I can assume I'm doing no less than 2k less than where I was before I left, meaning I'm starting to feel comfortable for doing normal heroics. Then when I've consistently put out above a certain benchmark, I can move up. Only if I find myself doing consistently below on fights I know that lack gimmicks will I worry. And part of that researching fights thing I mentioned in the OP means I'll know when I'm in a fight where DPS is strange.
The idea is that I can assume I'm doing no less than 2k less than where I was before I left, meaning I'm starting to feel comfortable for doing normal heroics. Then when I've consistently put out above a certain benchmark, I can move up. Only if I find myself doing consistently below on fights I know that lack gimmicks will I worry. And part of that researching fights thing I mentioned in the OP means I'll know when I'm in a fight where DPS is strange.
Pigtails and I both included rough "benchmarks". Personally, I don't queue for heroics as a DPS until my median output is 10k but that's not to say 10k is a requirement by any stretch. Just my personal "about here" mark.
As far as progressing I tend to look at it this way: When a toon gears out of a tier (ie there is no further reasonable upgrade available in that tier) I move to the next. That simple. And by "tier" I mean regular 5s, heroic 5s, trolls, t11, t12, t11h, t12h, etc. This view (as opposed to looking at numbers to tell me when to progress) has been far easier and simpler for me. Esp. with a lot of alts.
The meter, outside of napkin math for min/max, is really only useful as a very general indication of where your skill and class compare to other DPS. If you are more or less "in the pack" and not falling way behind the curve, you're fine in the content that you are attempting. I add this because you're not the only one reading this thread Pold =)
Cheers!
As far as progressing I tend to look at it this way: When a toon gears out of a tier (ie there is no further reasonable upgrade available in that tier) I move to the next. That simple. And by "tier" I mean regular 5s, heroic 5s, trolls, t11, t12, t11h, t12h, etc. This view (as opposed to looking at numbers to tell me when to progress) has been far easier and simpler for me. Esp. with a lot of alts.
The meter, outside of napkin math for min/max, is really only useful as a very general indication of where your skill and class compare to other DPS. If you are more or less "in the pack" and not falling way behind the curve, you're fine in the content that you are attempting. I add this because you're not the only one reading this thread Pold =)
Cheers!
My benchmarks tend to vary from class to class, but a rule of thumb is:
10k for normal heroics, 15k for troll heroics. If the numbers are above those benchmarks, it'll usually be a swift and easy run (provided the healer's HPS isn't crap).
Any class should be able to push 10k on bosses if they're able to get into normal heroics. If they're able to get into troll heroics then they should be able to push 15k on bosses. If they can't then they're lazy and/or fail at their class.
It should be noted that a lot of players are lazy and/or fail at their classes. I base this on the experience I've gathered while gearing up seven level 85 characters by only running dungeons.
My rule of thumb assumes the class in question isn't being crowd controlled or some other unavoidable stuff that sometimes happens when fighting bosses.
10k for normal heroics, 15k for troll heroics. If the numbers are above those benchmarks, it'll usually be a swift and easy run (provided the healer's HPS isn't crap).
Any class should be able to push 10k on bosses if they're able to get into normal heroics. If they're able to get into troll heroics then they should be able to push 15k on bosses. If they can't then they're lazy and/or fail at their class.
It should be noted that a lot of players are lazy and/or fail at their classes. I base this on the experience I've gathered while gearing up seven level 85 characters by only running dungeons.
My rule of thumb assumes the class in question isn't being crowd controlled or some other unavoidable stuff that sometimes happens when fighting bosses.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Borsuk wrote:
Heroics ~ Weak classes (Ret) ~ about 8k
Off topic, but this really confuses me and I've seen it in more than one place lately. Why is ret considered a "weak" class? My main is a ret pally (ilvl 376, mind you) and unless the fight is very unfair to melee, like Rhyolith, I am always in the top 5 in damage done, with 22-25k+ dps. There are 3 ret paladins in my raid group and one of the others puts out similar, if not even better numbers. The other guy is always 6-7k lower, but he's a "special" case. Anyway, I didn't come in here to brag, I'm just curious about why ret is regarded as weak.
Tellaria wrote:
Borsuk wrote:
Heroics ~ Weak classes (Ret) ~ about 8k
Off topic, but this really confuses me and I've seen it in more than one place lately. Why is ret considered a "weak" class?
Weak in that until the recent buff to Censure Ret paladins were world wide parsing at the back of the pack.
While the buff has changed that and personal experience might buck the trend it was pretty much a basic fact that Ret in Cata was on the low end of the dps pool.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Because anecdotal "I always place in the top X in my raid" arguments are really good evidence for why your class is/isn't over or underpowered.
I always place #1 in heroics.
Take it for what it's worth +1.
Take it for what it's worth +1.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Because anecdotal "I always place in the top X in my raid" arguments are really good evidence for why your class is/isn't over or underpowered.
That's why I asked. I don't follow top end guilds or do a lot of reading outside of Zam, so I only have my "anecdotal" observations to go by. I wasn't trying to say my mediocre performance contradicted the statement that ret is weak, I was just asking for more information since I was honestly not aware we were considered weak. And honestly, since I have no ambitions to be a hardcore player I'm perfectly happy with what I can put out.
Mazra wrote:
My benchmarks tend to vary from class to class, but a rule of thumb is:
10k for normal heroics, 15k for troll heroics. If the numbers are above those benchmarks, it'll usually be a swift and easy run (provided the healer's HPS isn't crap).
Any class should be able to push 10k on bosses if they're able to get into normal heroics. If they're able to get into troll heroics then they should be able to push 15k on bosses. If they can't then they're lazy and/or fail at their class.
10k for normal heroics, 15k for troll heroics. If the numbers are above those benchmarks, it'll usually be a swift and easy run (provided the healer's HPS isn't crap).
Any class should be able to push 10k on bosses if they're able to get into normal heroics. If they're able to get into troll heroics then they should be able to push 15k on bosses. If they can't then they're lazy and/or fail at their class.
Trash is too random to use as a benchmark and rarely does trash dps matter. Bosses tend to stay up long enough to know how well you are doing dps wise.
Criminy wrote:
Trash is too random to use as a benchmark and rarely does trash dps matter. Bosses tend to stay up long enough to know how well you are doing dps wise.
Some may be talking "Meter for Entire Run" while others are saying "Bosses only".
Ah I see what you are driving at. I used to look at both the entire run and bosses only to see how I did. I thought you might have been referring to those "specials" that like to pop aoe cooldowns on trash and then link meters when they do big numbers. Heck I have done it on my mage in HoO with the 50% haste buff as fire. Nothing like hitting 23k dps with an iLevel of 324 and shutting up the idiot tank in your party that is bragging how he can do 15k on the same trash with just a couple pieces of heroic gear.
Criminy wrote:
Ah I see what you are driving at. I used to look at both the entire run and bosses only to see how I did. I thought you might have been referring to those "specials" that like to pop aoe cooldowns on trash and then link meters when they do big numbers. Heck I have done it on my mage in HoO with the 50% haste buff as fire. Nothing like hitting 23k dps with an iLevel of 324 and shutting up the idiot tank in your party that is bragging how he can do 15k on the same trash with just a couple pieces of heroic gear.
Quote:
Flame Quills: Occasionally, Poldaran's phoenix will fly to the center of the room. The phoenix then launches quills that hit anyone. Deals ~10k Fire damage per second, for several seconds. Unknown cooldown
Yes, by anyone I even mean friendly. Yes, that would be a fun grieving tool for annoying pugs.
Criminy wrote:
Quote:
Flame Quills: Occasionally, Poldaran's phoenix will fly to the center of the room. The phoenix then launches quills that hit anyone. Deals ~10k Fire damage per second, for several seconds. Unknown cooldown
Yes, by anyone I even mean friendly. Yes, that would be a fun grieving tool for annoying pugs.
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
So that 10k/15k is for bosses?
Yeah.
I normally don't care about DPS on trash, unless people fail at prioritizing or controlling healers. 10k/15k on trash would be reasonable as well, though. Except for Arcane Mages and Enhancement Shaman, I can't think of a class that would do less DPS on trash than on bosses.
Some people just /afk through trash, though, or throttle their DPS to not pull aggro, which is why DPS on trash, in my opinion, doesn't matter. As long as someone is interrupting healers or pushing high damage, trash is a minor inconvenience.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
You know what? I'm feeling a lot better about where I'll be when I run a heroic tonight. Just pulled off ~7450 DPS on the whale shark while kiting it. Between that and how this thread's responses are sounding, I have a feeling I should do alright.
In other news, my god my arm is cramping from 20 minutes of holding the "D" key and tapping 4 over and over again.
Edited, Oct 1st 2011 12:43pm by Poldaran
In other news, my god my arm is cramping from 20 minutes of holding the "D" key and tapping 4 over and over again.
Edited, Oct 1st 2011 12:43pm by Poldaran
You haven't run heroics yet? What have you been doing the past year? 
But yeah, if you can push 7k while kiting, solo, you'll be just fine in a heroic. Remember, if you use the LFD thingy then you get a 5% (or more?) bonus to damage, health, etc. I'm fairly certain you'll have to try hard to not succeed.
In case you don't, though, you needn't worry. I've run heroics with people who had a hard time breaking 4k DPS and I'm not even kidding. Ran Vortex Pinnacle with a Druid who couldn't break 5k on that dragon boss with the haste bonus. I did more DPS than him and I was tanking (and thus had the haste penalty).
With the gear most people wear these days, heroics can be run with just four people in the group. Hell, I've run my share of heroics with just three people present because we couldn't be ***** waiting 10 minutes on a replacement tank.
Go-go-gadget Bear Form.
But yeah, if you can push 7k while kiting, solo, you'll be just fine in a heroic. Remember, if you use the LFD thingy then you get a 5% (or more?) bonus to damage, health, etc. I'm fairly certain you'll have to try hard to not succeed.
In case you don't, though, you needn't worry. I've run heroics with people who had a hard time breaking 4k DPS and I'm not even kidding. Ran Vortex Pinnacle with a Druid who couldn't break 5k on that dragon boss with the haste bonus. I did more DPS than him and I was tanking (and thus had the haste penalty).
With the gear most people wear these days, heroics can be run with just four people in the group. Hell, I've run my share of heroics with just three people present because we couldn't be ***** waiting 10 minutes on a replacement tank.
Go-go-gadget Bear Form.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
if you use the LFD thingy then you get a 5% (or more?) bonus to damage, health, etc.
Up to 15% health, damage, and healing if you've got 3 or more people that joined LFD individually. And I just ran a LFD where my smite-healing DPS was keeping up or ahead of 2 of the DPSers.
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