Howdy!;)
Well, we were going FL yesterday and we were missing 2 people to have a complete group. We pugged them, and went ahead to down 4 bosses. (10% on Alysrazor..>.< ) We are a casual guild that only raids 2 nights a week. So we are aiming to take down the last 3 bosses this coming monday. We already have 13 signups for that raid, so im abit "meh" on what to do actually. Both of the pugged members said that they would want to join on monday.
What is the "general consensus"? It seems fair to give the "puggers" a chance to clear the place, but then again leaving guildies "out in the cold". I just dont know. People have real life commitments that made it hard for them to come on wednesday, but it does not feel fair to use that towards them. Like : " You were not there on Wednesday, so therefore you can not come on Monday either". Feels like thats a fast way to lose members..>.<
What would you do?
Cheers
Cyanice
Edited, Sep 30th 2011 8:50am by Azena
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- Do you invite pugged ppl to the continuation of the run?
Do you invite pugged ppl to the continuation of the run?Follow
There is no expectation of getting invited back when i join a PUG.
When my guild uses pugs, we tend to invite them back, however. This is usually because the roll (Healer) is something we naturally lack. But we also tend to give people a fair shot at completing a run. We also like to encourage people in the guild to show up to events... (Read: It's a sort of punishment for people who skip the few raids we can actually schedule).
When my guild uses pugs, we tend to invite them back, however. This is usually because the roll (Healer) is something we naturally lack. But we also tend to give people a fair shot at completing a run. We also like to encourage people in the guild to show up to events... (Read: It's a sort of punishment for people who skip the few raids we can actually schedule).
Guild over pugs, always, imo.
We'd tell the PuG that they may or may not get invited back for the second night. However if we needed someone to fill a spot for a guild member again they'd get priority because they we're already saved to the raid.
Either way you do it just be clear up front so there's no surprises come the second night of raiding.
Either way you do it just be clear up front so there's no surprises come the second night of raiding.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
In the 'old days' we would usually give anyone who was in the first part of the run priority since they were already saved to the instance. It seemed like common courtesy to invite them back (unless they were bad of course) since they couldn't go anywhere else that week in that raid.
Things have changed now though since you are only saved to the bosses you kill (and any that come before that one) and you can pug with one group one day and then pug in another group for the later bosses on another day.
I would lean towards guildies first these days assuming all of the key roles are filled and I would make sure the pugs know that too so they can decide for themselves whether to go find another raid for the later bosses or wait for your second day.
Things have changed now though since you are only saved to the bosses you kill (and any that come before that one) and you can pug with one group one day and then pug in another group for the later bosses on another day.
I would lean towards guildies first these days assuming all of the key roles are filled and I would make sure the pugs know that too so they can decide for themselves whether to go find another raid for the later bosses or wait for your second day.
Our usual practice is that, if we have spots, we poke the guy again. Especially if they're competent.
Edited, Sep 29th 2011 10:22am by selebrin
Edited, Sep 29th 2011 10:22am by selebrin
Our guild usually invites them back. There are a couple notes there though; our "pugs" are generally people the raiding officers know and in the past 3 or so months of raiding we've done the pugs have generally been one of about 4 of the same people.
It's frankly a bit frustrating to myself and several others (guild/raid leader included) that we have a solid raid core . .of about 8 people. The other 2 spots are almost always signed up for by someone or another but we have probably 4 or 5 in the guild who are really gung-ho, communicative, and timely for 2-3 weeks and then sort of disappear for a bit, or forget, or get hung up with something else, or raid elsewhere because we didn't have a spot right that minute.
Most of our raids have consisted of about 7 or 8 people who are there *every single time* and another 7 or so who make one, miss another, do part of another etc. Honestly, a couple of our "pugs" are more reliable than some in-guild so none of us who are actually there every time have a problem with re-inviting.
So I guess it depends on your guild dynamics really. I wouldn't push out a guildy who was willing to actually be there and put in the work but I also wouldn't push out a good pug because Joe Guildmate *says* he's going to try to make it.
It's frankly a bit frustrating to myself and several others (guild/raid leader included) that we have a solid raid core . .of about 8 people. The other 2 spots are almost always signed up for by someone or another but we have probably 4 or 5 in the guild who are really gung-ho, communicative, and timely for 2-3 weeks and then sort of disappear for a bit, or forget, or get hung up with something else, or raid elsewhere because we didn't have a spot right that minute.
Most of our raids have consisted of about 7 or 8 people who are there *every single time* and another 7 or so who make one, miss another, do part of another etc. Honestly, a couple of our "pugs" are more reliable than some in-guild so none of us who are actually there every time have a problem with re-inviting.
So I guess it depends on your guild dynamics really. I wouldn't push out a guildy who was willing to actually be there and put in the work but I also wouldn't push out a good pug because Joe Guildmate *says* he's going to try to make it.
If they're worth bringing back, throw them a trial invite and solve two problems at once.
Pantherfern wrote:
Our guild usually invites them back. There are a couple notes there though; our "pugs" are generally people the raiding officers know and in the past 3 or so months of raiding we've done the pugs have generally been one of about 4 of the same people.
It's frankly a bit frustrating to myself and several others (guild/raid leader included) that we have a solid raid core . .of about 8 people. The other 2 spots are almost always signed up for by someone or another but we have probably 4 or 5 in the guild who are really gung-ho, communicative, and timely for 2-3 weeks and then sort of disappear for a bit, or forget, or get hung up with something else, or raid elsewhere because we didn't have a spot right that minute.
Most of our raids have consisted of about 7 or 8 people who are there *every single time* and another 7 or so who make one, miss another, do part of another etc. Honestly, a couple of our "pugs" are more reliable than some in-guild so none of us who are actually there every time have a problem with re-inviting.
So I guess it depends on your guild dynamics really. I wouldn't push out a guildy who was willing to actually be there and put in the work but I also wouldn't push out a good pug because Joe Guildmate *says* he's going to try to make it.
It's frankly a bit frustrating to myself and several others (guild/raid leader included) that we have a solid raid core . .of about 8 people. The other 2 spots are almost always signed up for by someone or another but we have probably 4 or 5 in the guild who are really gung-ho, communicative, and timely for 2-3 weeks and then sort of disappear for a bit, or forget, or get hung up with something else, or raid elsewhere because we didn't have a spot right that minute.
Most of our raids have consisted of about 7 or 8 people who are there *every single time* and another 7 or so who make one, miss another, do part of another etc. Honestly, a couple of our "pugs" are more reliable than some in-guild so none of us who are actually there every time have a problem with re-inviting.
So I guess it depends on your guild dynamics really. I wouldn't push out a guildy who was willing to actually be there and put in the work but I also wouldn't push out a good pug because Joe Guildmate *says* he's going to try to make it.
You're not in Rose Thorns, are you? That's our situation too.
selebrin wrote:
You're not in Rose Thorns, are you? That's our situation too.
No. I'm sure it's not an uncommon problem though. I would think especially in guilds like mine which are more casual/social inclined and not necessarily strict as far as raiding goes.
We have a quite a few people in the guild. We have a number of really solid people in the guild. Our hunter, rogue, and mage are on daily nearly without fail and consistently put up solid numbers. Myself and the guild/raid leader are likewise with heals. My wife is a solid tank and is always there. The 2nd tank spot seems to rotate through 3 guildies -who are all decent but none phenomenal- depending on who happens to show up/have decent internet/feels like it. The 3rd heal spot . . I feel kind of bad for her but her connection is atrocious and as a result she underperforms almost consistently and disconnects constantly. But she's nice enough and is always there so she goes.
Because that's how guilds like mine (and maybe yours) go; its more like youth sports where everybody gets to play regardless of performance because we're a team and that's what we do.
The other 2 spots, as I said, go to whatever guildy happens to have signed up -and more importantly showed up- or to a small group of people we know from old guilds, sister guilds, or whatever. Some of them are really good but just on sporadically, others not so much.
Our guild seems to place more emphasis on the idea of going than on actually winning. Which kind of annoys me a bit honestly, but I guess I don't care enough to let it bother me too much. It can be aggravating to run with people you chatter in /g with every day and have them doing 4k or 7k on a raid boss and just knowing that this is simply not going to happen due to badness.
I think guilds which are a lot more "business" oriented probably fare much better in this regard. You try out, you test, those who perform best get the spot. You better show up on time every time or you're out. You have the same team every time barring emergencies, etc. But they don't care about hurt feelings and making friends so much either I wouldn't suppose. This is why I'm not a guild or raid leader though - I'd have an aneurism.
Scholar
18 posts
I think since the change of raid lockouts that those pugs would be able to start their own group, or find one, on the boss that was ended on. That's the only good part about the raid lockout, IMO.
Scholar
27 posts
Well, i think i`ll send them a /w saying that we are going to prefer guildies if possible the coming run. Reckon your right that with the new raid lockout they should be able to get another pug for atleast some of the last 3 bosses.
Btw, I have never tried Staghelm before, but i have watched quite a few videos of it. Is it as "easy" as it seems? I mean, there doesnt seem to be that many mechanics to the fight. Like; stack up on scorpion, spread out on cat, move out of fire, get away if u have the orb.. Just seems much easier than alysrazor for example. But i dont know, might be wrong..;) And i know that some of you might say; " After they nerfed it its all easy, etc etc.." Might even claim it to be easy before the nerf. But if you have people who sometimes have trouble doing more than one thing at a time, even the easiest challenges might pose a challenge..;)
Cheers
Cyanice
Edited, Sep 30th 2011 8:50am by Azena
Btw, I have never tried Staghelm before, but i have watched quite a few videos of it. Is it as "easy" as it seems? I mean, there doesnt seem to be that many mechanics to the fight. Like; stack up on scorpion, spread out on cat, move out of fire, get away if u have the orb.. Just seems much easier than alysrazor for example. But i dont know, might be wrong..;) And i know that some of you might say; " After they nerfed it its all easy, etc etc.." Might even claim it to be easy before the nerf. But if you have people who sometimes have trouble doing more than one thing at a time, even the easiest challenges might pose a challenge..;)
Cheers
Cyanice
Edited, Sep 30th 2011 8:50am by Azena
I did find Staghelm to be easier in theory, but my guild struggled for a bit because of stupidity. People not collapsing/spreading out fast enough, people letting their seeds detonate in the group, healers not healing the tanks, etc. Once we killed him for the first time though and people did what they needed to do, it's a very easy fight.
Scholar
27 posts
Tellaria wrote:
healers not healing the tanks
Totally understandable that that might cause problems..;)
Edited, Sep 30th 2011 8:50am by Azena
I'd be inclined to say guildie over pug, but it depends on your guild/the guildie in question. If you're talking about someone who usually raids and helps the guild by putting in a good performance then I would prioritize them. On the other hand if your option is between a guildie you need to carry through or a pug who knows what they are doing (especially if you might be able to use them later) I would go for the pug, but again that depends on your guild. If you have a free for all attitude to raiding then it's a bit harder to justify taking someone from outside the guild when you have a guild member who wants to go (in which case I would go for the 'starting group has priority' angle).
If I came to a guild group as a pug I wouldn't expect to be included in the continuation run, but if I was then I would prefer to be told in advance if guild members will have priority or if I'm definitely going to be included.
Staghelm is fairly simple compared to the other bosses, our guild had the shortest learning curve on him. You might need to assign sides for spreading out (if people are not good at spatial awareness) and we also had a little trouble getting used to the fire stacks from the orbs. There's nothing too tricky about the fight though, just knowing when/where to move and for healers what sort of damage is going to be happening (aoe vs single target), you might also want to assign cooldowns so you don't have all healers popping them at the same time and remind people to use barkskin/mana shield etc for heavy damage parts.
If I came to a guild group as a pug I wouldn't expect to be included in the continuation run, but if I was then I would prefer to be told in advance if guild members will have priority or if I'm definitely going to be included.
Staghelm is fairly simple compared to the other bosses, our guild had the shortest learning curve on him. You might need to assign sides for spreading out (if people are not good at spatial awareness) and we also had a little trouble getting used to the fire stacks from the orbs. There's nothing too tricky about the fight though, just knowing when/where to move and for healers what sort of damage is going to be happening (aoe vs single target), you might also want to assign cooldowns so you don't have all healers popping them at the same time and remind people to use barkskin/mana shield etc for heavy damage parts.
We reached Staghelm at the end of our last raid night last week (also got our first Baelroc/Alysrazor), Wednesday we blitzed the other bosses and killed him too.
There's relatively few abilities but they rely on the entire raid. If people fail to collapse fully in the cat/scorp transition then he's likely to pounce the folks who are already grouped. If people with seeds are too slow running back in (or someone dies) he'll shift into cat. I believe the requirement's 7 people grouped to force a shift 10-man, so counting hunters being too far out by accident it can get tricky. Scorp form's a healing check and cat form's a "don't stand on top of other folks" check.
So it's few abilities, but when things go wrong they usually cascade.
There's relatively few abilities but they rely on the entire raid. If people fail to collapse fully in the cat/scorp transition then he's likely to pounce the folks who are already grouped. If people with seeds are too slow running back in (or someone dies) he'll shift into cat. I believe the requirement's 7 people grouped to force a shift 10-man, so counting hunters being too far out by accident it can get tricky. Scorp form's a healing check and cat form's a "don't stand on top of other folks" check.
So it's few abilities, but when things go wrong they usually cascade.
Simple. Just tell them that the raid may or may not be full of guild members. If there are slots you'll let them know. That's if they don't suck.
MentalFrog wrote:
Simple. Just tell them that the raid may or may not be full of guild members. If there are slots you'll let them know. That's if they don't suck.
I wish I could find a raid static that wouldn't involve me leaving my guild. I'm sure if I was a tank or healer I could, but as a DPS it's doubtful.
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