I’ve been working on two toons. Both are heroic ready (333 or Higher). Both have 2 pieces of tier gear. One is a tank. One is a healer. I can say, without a doubt, PVP gear should not be allowed in Heroics via the /LFD tool.
Some people can do it. Many (Read: Most) can not.
The reason an iLevel was installed to use the /LFD tool was because at a certain iLevel, the gear should have enough stats to defeat the content. PVP gear has stats that are completely wasted in a PVE environment and thus the iLevel does not reflect the actual stats.
A piece of gear that has 500 Resil would be very valuable in PVP, but completely useless in PVE (for all practical purposes).
The problem, as I see it, is how to effectively implement this. I often queue as a DPS while waiting to heal. My DPS gear could be anything… My healing gear could turn out to be PVP gear…
All that I do know is that it’s a huge problem for me right now. I can not, as a new, but reasonably geared tank/healer, carry a group that has the other roll (Healer/Tank) filled by someone who shouldn’t be there.
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PVP Gear Should Not Be AllowedFollow
wrong
PVP gear should just have it's effective iLvl reduced so that the iLvl increase granted by the resilence on it doesn't count for the LFD tool
Edit:
About the Tanks/Healers showing up in PVP gear... sorry, that's not the gear's fault. The problem lies in the peoples heads, their mentality. strip them off the PVP gear and they will just equip the highest iLvl gear they can get their hands on, no matter if it's actually useful for them
Edited, Sep 1st 2011 9:09am by Wortschmied
PVP gear should just have it's effective iLvl reduced so that the iLvl increase granted by the resilence on it doesn't count for the LFD tool
Edit:
About the Tanks/Healers showing up in PVP gear... sorry, that's not the gear's fault. The problem lies in the peoples heads, their mentality. strip them off the PVP gear and they will just equip the highest iLvl gear they can get their hands on, no matter if it's actually useful for them
Edited, Sep 1st 2011 9:09am by Wortschmied
Borsuk wrote:
The problem, as I see it, is how to effectively implement this. I often queue as a DPS while waiting to heal. My DPS gear could be anything… My healing gear could turn out to be PVP gear…
I don't understand why they don't just get rid of PvP gear, apply a blanket 35% damage reduction in Arenas and Battlegrounds and let people use whatever gear they can get their hands on.
I can run heroics just fine in PvP gear, but I get demolished if I set foot in PvP with my PvE gear.
That doesn't seem right.
I can run heroics just fine in PvP gear, but I get demolished if I set foot in PvP with my PvE gear.
That doesn't seem right.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Wortschmied wrote:
wrong
PVP gear should just have it's effective iLvl reduced so that the iLvl increase granted by the resilence on it doesn't count for the LFD tool
Edit:
About the Tanks/Healers showing up in PVP gear... sorry, that's not the gear's fault. The problem lies in the peoples heads, their mentality. strip them off the PVP gear and they will just equip the highest iLvl gear they can get their hands on, no matter if it's actually useful for them
PVP gear should just have it's effective iLvl reduced so that the iLvl increase granted by the resilence on it doesn't count for the LFD tool
Edit:
About the Tanks/Healers showing up in PVP gear... sorry, that's not the gear's fault. The problem lies in the peoples heads, their mentality. strip them off the PVP gear and they will just equip the highest iLvl gear they can get their hands on, no matter if it's actually useful for them
1. Changing the ilvl could possibly hinder gems and enchants. It's not as simple as saying cut out all the ilvl that is implied by the Resil stat. That could take an item below the effective range to use gems.
2. I'm not saying that the gear is at fault. What I am saying is that a barrier has been imposed and people are exploiting PVP gear to get around that barrier. People will always take the path of least resistance – it’s Blizzard’s job to make sure that that path does not interfere with the game. The last 3 /LFD groups I’ve joined have had major issues with either the tank or the healer using PVP gear.
The “Bloodthirsty†Tailoring set requires <90 bolts and < 40 Fire/Earths. That’s not only easy, it’s ridiculously easy to achieve the required ilvl.
Again – I’m not saying that it can’t be done. I’m sure a good healer/tank could do it. The problem is that very few good players use this tactic and if they do, it’s generally very few pieces of gear. Bad players looking to circumvent the ilvl requirement abuse this tactic and that’s what hurts groups.
Blizzard obviously put the ilvl requirement in there for a reason. That reason wasn’t to have people use PVP gear. It would be nice if they found a way to close this obvious loophole.
Make PvP gear like BOA gear, make it scale by character level and honor points accumulated. Then give it an iLevel of 1. case closed.
Quote:
Make PvP gear like BOA gear, make it scale by character level and honor points accumulated. Then give it an iLevel of 1. case closed.
This...
Honestly in my limited experience, when leveling up alts I HATE seeing tanks in PvP gear for this simple reason: They lack proper damage mitigation. Granted they have the stam to take it like a truck, and mobs don't exactly pose as much as a challenge as they used to back in the day.
Still Blizzard needs to realize PvP and PvE should remain seperate but equal. I think Blizzard should remember that PvP wasn't always a part of the game and should take a back seat to PvE. Like maybe restrict people who wear PvP gear into getting into the LFD groups with a debuff or just not let them queue at all until they have less than 2-3 pieces of PvP gear.
Debuff should be called: Out of Place - You feel the glares of your peers causing you to perform under intense scrutiny causing your damage and healing abilities to be reduced by 30% and any damage you take by NPC's is increased by 20%.
And don't tell me you don't glare at someone in PvP gear running dungeons/heroics. ;P
I'm not a fan of people trying to do gear dependent pve content in pvp gear. That being said, using a bit of pvp gear can be a huge pve upgrade to quested greens until a person can get their hands on more of the decent starter pve gear.
I have some alts who hit 85 while still in Deepholme or Uldum so they were in mainly quested greens from zones about 2 levels below 85. I got some reputation gear and a few odd pieces I picked up here and there but for several slots, I just didn't have anything above ilevel 320. When I was looking through the AH for decent upgrades, some of the pvp crafted gear I saw was a huge upgrade even with the worthless resilience on it. The prices were pretty good too so a few of my 85 alts have a piece or two of pvp gear. I didn't get the gear to raise my ilevel or to get into content that I wasn't really geared for. I bought it to give me upgrades in the stats I do need so I can go about my dailies and questing easier.
I prefer the solution of having the dungeon finder treat ilevel gear as a step or two lower than it's shown value. If only the dungeon finder reads it this way, it shouldn't affect enchants and gems. It would be nice if the dungeon finder kept a constant monitoring of ilevel and warned players that they risk being removed if their ilevel drops below the required threshold of the content so as to limit the problem of people holding onto high ilevel useless gear just to boost their ilevel or people who have healing or tank gear that is subpar to their dps gear but who queue up as tanks or heals. *shrugs* It's a messy situation and no fix is perfect. I tend to just avoid using the dungeon finder entirely unless I have a mostly known group to start with.
I have some alts who hit 85 while still in Deepholme or Uldum so they were in mainly quested greens from zones about 2 levels below 85. I got some reputation gear and a few odd pieces I picked up here and there but for several slots, I just didn't have anything above ilevel 320. When I was looking through the AH for decent upgrades, some of the pvp crafted gear I saw was a huge upgrade even with the worthless resilience on it. The prices were pretty good too so a few of my 85 alts have a piece or two of pvp gear. I didn't get the gear to raise my ilevel or to get into content that I wasn't really geared for. I bought it to give me upgrades in the stats I do need so I can go about my dailies and questing easier.
I prefer the solution of having the dungeon finder treat ilevel gear as a step or two lower than it's shown value. If only the dungeon finder reads it this way, it shouldn't affect enchants and gems. It would be nice if the dungeon finder kept a constant monitoring of ilevel and warned players that they risk being removed if their ilevel drops below the required threshold of the content so as to limit the problem of people holding onto high ilevel useless gear just to boost their ilevel or people who have healing or tank gear that is subpar to their dps gear but who queue up as tanks or heals. *shrugs* It's a messy situation and no fix is perfect. I tend to just avoid using the dungeon finder entirely unless I have a mostly known group to start with.
Item level 371 PvP gear beats 333 normal mode and quest gear as well as 346 heroic stuff. Base stats are significantly higher. Only one secondary stat is being replaced by resilience on PvP gear and thus "wasted". Only exception are plate tanks, where you want all the dodge, parry, and mastery you can get.
Absolutely nothing wrong with people wearing PvP gear in 5-mans. You fail because of a dozen other reasons, mostly not using CC when you could, standing in bad stuff, ignoring or simply not knowing boss mechanics, or being outright stupid.
PvP players want to be able to improve their gear - in what is a gear-centered game- without being forced to run PvE content. It was a long, hard road to get there. Demanding for it to be changed back is just... dumb
Agreed. This really needs to happen actually in order to balance out low-level PvP so you aren't just facerolled by some of the dps classes, especially if you're a healer and trying to keep yourself and others alive.
But for gear progression's sake (reasons I mentioned above) I'd want that removed at max level.
Really Simple fix? A single heirloom, possibly even a PvP trinket with a level 1-84 restriction that's offering resilience rating equivalent to the average resilience at max level, let's say 30% reduction.
Would take a Blizzard intern maybe a couple hours to create, without any other code needing changed.
Completely irrelevant while leveling, especially now that crit-immunity is granted through talents alone. And who is actually still leveling a toon in anything more PvP gear but the Wintergrasp Heirloom Shoulders and possibly a WIntergrasp Weapon? Your scenario is next to non-existant.
Edited, Sep 1st 2011 5:59pm by Kanngarnix
Absolutely nothing wrong with people wearing PvP gear in 5-mans. You fail because of a dozen other reasons, mostly not using CC when you could, standing in bad stuff, ignoring or simply not knowing boss mechanics, or being outright stupid.
PvP players want to be able to improve their gear - in what is a gear-centered game- without being forced to run PvE content. It was a long, hard road to get there. Demanding for it to be changed back is just... dumb
Mazra wrote:
I don't understand why they don't just get rid of PvP gear, apply a blanket 35% damage reduction in Arenas and Battlegrounds and let people use whatever gear they can get their hands on.
Agreed. This really needs to happen actually in order to balance out low-level PvP so you aren't just facerolled by some of the dps classes, especially if you're a healer and trying to keep yourself and others alive.
But for gear progression's sake (reasons I mentioned above) I'd want that removed at max level.
Really Simple fix? A single heirloom, possibly even a PvP trinket with a level 1-84 restriction that's offering resilience rating equivalent to the average resilience at max level, let's say 30% reduction.
Would take a Blizzard intern maybe a couple hours to create, without any other code needing changed.
Dorojin wrote:
Honestly in my limited experience, when leveling up alts I HATE seeing tanks in PvP gear for this simple reason: They lack proper damage mitigation. Granted they have the stam to take it like a truck, and mobs don't exactly pose as much as a challenge as they used to back in the day.
Completely irrelevant while leveling, especially now that crit-immunity is granted through talents alone. And who is actually still leveling a toon in anything more PvP gear but the Wintergrasp Heirloom Shoulders and possibly a WIntergrasp Weapon? Your scenario is next to non-existant.
Edited, Sep 1st 2011 5:59pm by Kanngarnix
Kanngarnix wrote:
Item level 371 PvP gear beats 333 normal mode and quest gear as well as 346 heroic stuff. Base stats are significantly higher. Only one secondary stat is being replaced by resilience on PvP gear and thus "wasted". Only exception are plate tanks, where you want all the dodge, parry, and mastery you can get.
Since my druid is mostly a PvP toon anyway (back in LK she lived in Wintergrasp like Sabine Schmitz owns the Nurburgring), I made the Bloodthirsty set to make the transition easier if I start her up again. Mr. Robot says that the ilvl 358 items just about split the difference between well-itemized 333 and poorly-itemized 346. Which is pretty much what I was expecting. I'd have no shame going into a non-Zul heroic in it.
PvP gear should just be treated by the PvE dungeon finder as being a couple of tiers lower then the listed ilvl.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
I wear Pvp gear on a few o my newer 85s to get into heroics and i still out dpsd most people. Ilvl gear is based on whats in your BAGS not what your wearing only. So you would prefer they dont wear the better stat pieces but greens while holding them in their bags.
Its not PVP gear thats the problem, as others said use CC, don't be stupid, and all heroics are relatively easy.
Its not PVP gear thats the problem, as others said use CC, don't be stupid, and all heroics are relatively easy.
I just replaced my 359 neck with the 384 PVP neck off Occu'thar for pve. When fighting him I accidentally had my PvP gear equipped (unenchanted Bloodthirsty Gladiator's with PvE trinkets/rings/etc) and still pulled 17K.
Sometimes the PvP stuff's an upgrade despite the resilience. For a tank the extra stamina can often help. For the DPS it sure beats sitting around waiting for gear that doesn't drop or relying on very splotchy quest rewards.
Sometimes the PvP stuff's an upgrade despite the resilience. For a tank the extra stamina can often help. For the DPS it sure beats sitting around waiting for gear that doesn't drop or relying on very splotchy quest rewards.
selebrin wrote:
I just replaced my 359 neck with the 384 PVP neck off Occu'thar for pve. When fighting him I accidentally had my PvP gear equipped (unenchanted Bloodthirsty Gladiator's with PvE trinkets/rings/etc) and still pulled 17K.
Sometimes the PvP stuff's an upgrade despite the resilience. For a tank the extra stamina can often help. For the DPS it sure beats sitting around waiting for gear that doesn't drop or relying on very splotchy quest rewards.
Sometimes the PvP stuff's an upgrade despite the resilience. For a tank the extra stamina can often help. For the DPS it sure beats sitting around waiting for gear that doesn't drop or relying on very splotchy quest rewards.
Not even bear tanks stack stamina, although the fact that we have to reforge to get any dodge rating means that a bear in PvP gear is really only losing out on threat stats (since you can reforge the one non-resil stat to dodge). Savage Defense uptime would go down, but it's never been terribly reliable. For plate tanks, all the dodge/parry lost by using a PvP piece while tanking negates any gains in stamina. For DPS and healers, it's less important.
4 posts
I used to think that using PVP gear was a thing that shouldn't be done, but the optimizer utilities (ShadowCraft, Rawr, spreadsheets) say otherwise; as does experience. Full PVP in instances/raids doesn't work, but filler pieces that bring set bonuses do.
As I've always said, they need to make Fresh 85 -> Heroic a bit less painful for tanks and healers.
Spoken as a Plate Tank, it is 100% impossible to find any Blue-quality Bracers or Shoulders anywhere that's 333+.
Wrists, you can buy from the AH, true. If there's any there, and if they don't want a ridiculous price for it. Or, you could wait -weeks- grinding out Firelands Dailies until you unlock the armorer for DPS plate wrists.
Shoulders?
The best you can do is 325. I've done the stat comparisons between the 325 Uldum Tank Shoulders and the PvP 358 Shoulders. You gain quite a lot, and only lose about 90 or so dodge rating if I recall correctly. The STamina gains alone are 120+, a bunch of strength, some armor, and I forget the other stat... Mastery? Hit Rating? I can't remember. I'd look it up but I have to leave for work in a min.
Either way, wearing just the PvP Shoulders for plate tanking is fine. Wrist? Meh. Really should buy the Amani wrists instead.
All other slots can be filled with 333+, even if a couple of those would be DPS (like the gloves from Twilight Highlands).
Wanna know what I personally -hate-?
People showing up with green, 333, or 346 capes.
Seriously. You can get a better cape (365!) by doing a 30 minute quest. Or, the people who don't have the items from the very first day of Firelands dailies. Plate gets a pair of boots, and a necklace, everyone else gets a ring. The stats might not be ideal, but that's what reforging is for. The boots are Tank, but could be reforged for DPS (it'd be better than those 318 quested I've seen some plate DPS wear!).
One day and 2 hours would get you that cape, and items from that first Firelands dailies vendor. One Day. Seriously, just do it already before stepping into a Heroic.
Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 11:07am by Lyrailis
Spoken as a Plate Tank, it is 100% impossible to find any Blue-quality Bracers or Shoulders anywhere that's 333+.
Wrists, you can buy from the AH, true. If there's any there, and if they don't want a ridiculous price for it. Or, you could wait -weeks- grinding out Firelands Dailies until you unlock the armorer for DPS plate wrists.
Shoulders?
The best you can do is 325. I've done the stat comparisons between the 325 Uldum Tank Shoulders and the PvP 358 Shoulders. You gain quite a lot, and only lose about 90 or so dodge rating if I recall correctly. The STamina gains alone are 120+, a bunch of strength, some armor, and I forget the other stat... Mastery? Hit Rating? I can't remember. I'd look it up but I have to leave for work in a min.
Either way, wearing just the PvP Shoulders for plate tanking is fine. Wrist? Meh. Really should buy the Amani wrists instead.
All other slots can be filled with 333+, even if a couple of those would be DPS (like the gloves from Twilight Highlands).
Wanna know what I personally -hate-?
People showing up with green, 333, or 346 capes.
Seriously. You can get a better cape (365!) by doing a 30 minute quest. Or, the people who don't have the items from the very first day of Firelands dailies. Plate gets a pair of boots, and a necklace, everyone else gets a ring. The stats might not be ideal, but that's what reforging is for. The boots are Tank, but could be reforged for DPS (it'd be better than those 318 quested I've seen some plate DPS wear!).
One day and 2 hours would get you that cape, and items from that first Firelands dailies vendor. One Day. Seriously, just do it already before stepping into a Heroic.
Edited, Sep 2nd 2011 11:07am by Lyrailis
AstarintheDruid wrote:
Not even bear tanks stack stamina, although the fact that we have to reforge to get any dodge rating means that a bear in PvP gear is really only losing out on threat stats (since you can reforge the one non-resil stat to dodge). Savage Defense uptime would go down, but it's never been terribly reliable. For plate tanks, all the dodge/parry lost by using a PvP piece while tanking negates any gains in stamina. For DPS and healers, it's less important.
Tanks who are fully geared and looking toward gems shouldn't stack stamina, but when you're trying to gear up enough having a bit more HP can be useful. A tank's first priority is to be able to take a punch, and the second priority is to take as few of those punches as possible.
5 posts
How about making all level 85 gear stats the same, just have different looking gear for crafted, pve, pvp, or quest.
This way no one is disadvantaged, those that want to get a “special†set can farm till their hearts content in whatever way they choose and be rewarded for their effort without causing major gear scale balance issues within the game.
This way no one is disadvantaged, those that want to get a “special†set can farm till their hearts content in whatever way they choose and be rewarded for their effort without causing major gear scale balance issues within the game.
parttimegamer wrote:
How about making all level 85 gear stats the same, just have different looking gear for crafted, pve, pvp, or quest.
This way no one is disadvantaged, those that want to get a “special†set can farm till their hearts content in whatever way they choose and be rewarded for their effort without causing major gear scale balance issues within the game.
This way no one is disadvantaged, those that want to get a “special†set can farm till their hearts content in whatever way they choose and be rewarded for their effort without causing major gear scale balance issues within the game.
That would take all the gear progression out of a game that, at max-level, is about gear progression.
5 posts
it would take the gear out of the gear based game i agree,
but it would also take the "only here for gear" element out of raids, bg's etc
and leave only those that actually wanted to be there for fun and not just loot.
but it would also take the "only here for gear" element out of raids, bg's etc
and leave only those that actually wanted to be there for fun and not just loot.
parttimegamer wrote:
it would take the gear out of the gear based game i agree,
but it would also take the "only here for gear" element out of raids, bg's etc
and leave only those that actually wanted to be there for fun and not just loot.
but it would also take the "only here for gear" element out of raids, bg's etc
and leave only those that actually wanted to be there for fun and not just loot.
Doesn't sound very fun to me. A difficult boss would always be difficult, I wouldn't be able to gear up to help cover for guildies who don't play as much, there would be no sense of progression...
EJ actually lists stamina as one the primary stats to get as a Bear. Agility first, of course, but stamina as well.
It boosts our self-healing and mitigation, so why not. Plus, 230k health makes the scrubs think you're boss-like.
It boosts our self-healing and mitigation, so why not. Plus, 230k health makes the scrubs think you're boss-like.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Like a MC boss. 
Gear scaling for end game needs to stay. Yes it causes issues, but honestly it's pretty easy to figure out who is there just for gear and who is there to have fun. Those of us who are there for both (and I fully admit I enjoy both), would have part of our fun taken away if you got rid of gear scaling.
Gear scaling for end game needs to stay. Yes it causes issues, but honestly it's pretty easy to figure out who is there just for gear and who is there to have fun. Those of us who are there for both (and I fully admit I enjoy both), would have part of our fun taken away if you got rid of gear scaling.
Honestly, in LFD pvp gear shouldn't be that big of an issue. Especially the 371 gear. The only place I could see it causing some serious issues is with plate tanks. It has enough spirit and offensive stats for healers and DPS respectively that it should be more than sufficient for heroics. Would they be doing better in slightly lower ilvl pve gear? Yes. Is it enough of a difference to make or break heroics? No. Chances are if its causing a problem its the player, not the gear, and they'd still be having problems with the optimal gear.
Now if you want to start talking about raids that's a completely different story...
Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 4:32pm by ekaterinodar
Now if you want to start talking about raids that's a completely different story...
Edited, Sep 3rd 2011 4:32pm by ekaterinodar
What I think needs to happen is to remove gear all together from competative PvP. Set health and mana(or energy) based on level and class. Let player skill determine outcomes. I guess Blizzard would have to come up with new rewards for those compete. Make more vanity items. The point is this: instead of half-heartedly supporting two games as one, treat each aspect as a separate game. Let PvE and PvP have thier own rules and goals. The current mess is fustrating to those who care for one and not the other and confusing for those of us who try to do both.
Borsuk wrote:
Some people can do it. Many (Read: Most) can not.
If anyone can, anyone could. No reason to put a restriction on who can and who can't.
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