I know SOE claims the lotto system is working fine, but I just find it absolutely impossible to beleive. It seems to me every time i am in a group there is always 1 person who ends up winning about 75% of the loot every time. Even in 2 person groups this seems to happen alot.
For instance yesterday me and a friend went into nek castle. We wasn't in there long but during the time we was in there ID estimate 7 items dropped (some junk, some good) anyways they won all but 1 item through the lotto.
Day before that I was in a Rivervale group with 6 people. ID say about 20 to 30 items dropped (again some junk some good) The healer probably won 3 out of every 4 items that dropped. People was actually asking him to decline a few things he was winning so much (although they didn't hehe).
Few days before that I was in a everfrost group. The entire time I was there once again a certain person seemed to win almost everything. In fact in this particular group out of 2 hours of hunting I did not win a single item. I know 30 to 40 things dropped and I won none of it.
I just think SOE needs to rethink the Lotto system, cause it don't seem very random to me. Does anybody else have any similar stories to share?
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Lotto system just don't work right?Follow
8 posts
The lotto system is probably very basic, so the only thing that is likely to be 'bad' is the random number generator that decides who gets each item.
If you want to prove that it is bad you'll need to back this up with some numbers. I suspect that extensive analysis of a logfile could do it. You'd probably need to be able to tell when you joined and left a group, but once you have that you can figure out the distribution of drops. In any sort period of time there will be inbalances as that is how random number work, but if the long-term distribution is skewed then there is a problem.
If you go to a Random Number Generator you'll see that they are random but not necessarily fair over any particular subset.
Edited, Tue Apr 5 12:50:42 2005 by Toger
If you want to prove that it is bad you'll need to back this up with some numbers. I suspect that extensive analysis of a logfile could do it. You'd probably need to be able to tell when you joined and left a group, but once you have that you can figure out the distribution of drops. In any sort period of time there will be inbalances as that is how random number work, but if the long-term distribution is skewed then there is a problem.
If you go to a Random Number Generator you'll see that they are random but not necessarily fair over any particular subset.
Edited, Tue Apr 5 12:50:42 2005 by Toger
I have always had terrible luck with the EQ2 lotto system. There have been evenings in a 2 man group where I didn't win a single drop out of dozens and dozens. It got so bad I started to wonder if I would lose the lotto even when I soloed!!!
I normally duo and trio with a couple of R/L friends and after a while we just stopped using it.
Our current policy is that the guy with the biggest bags loots, sells everything off at the end of the session and does a 3 way split. We keep rare drops for sale on a trader and anyone can NBG anything that drops that is an upgrade. Seems to work out well but the 3 of us are friends in RL so... your mileage may vary!
I normally duo and trio with a couple of R/L friends and after a while we just stopped using it.
Our current policy is that the guy with the biggest bags loots, sells everything off at the end of the session and does a 3 way split. We keep rare drops for sale on a trader and anyone can NBG anything that drops that is an upgrade. Seems to work out well but the 3 of us are friends in RL so... your mileage may vary!
Have to say the Lotto system doesn't work for me. Whether I'm playing with just one friend or grouping, I never win a thing. I've got used to it but it does cheese me off.
2 posts
I totally agree with you all
Fronglo:
Yes, I feel the lotto system of distributing loot to be anything but fair.
I only ever group with my brother - normally for 3 - 4hrs per night after work and anything up to 6-8hours on sat/sun.
We originally always used the lotto as we thought it would be a fair distribution of the loot but we have had many many times where one person keeps getting the loot - and I am not talking about for 2-3 drops, I am talking about for consecutive runs of multiple drops
Now, both of us were starting to get pretty peeved - not at the loot (as it was mostly crap) but that one person was always getting it and feeling guilty about it whilst the other guy got nothing for hours on end. I think it is nice to be able to get the roll on the loot even if it is crap as this gives me the right to distribute the loot as I see fit (i.e., sell or give away, etc.) - it's a side bonus to getting the loot in the first place. When one person continually gets the loots it's like I'm being robbed of that little (small) benefit - if it appeared random then fair enough, that's the name of the game - but, currently to my brother and I, loot distribution doesn't appear random at all - therefore, it is not fair
We have both talked about it many a time as we were grinding along and we have both agreed that if we didn't know the other person in the duo (i.e., a pickup group or whatever) then we'd instantly disband thinking that the person was hacking the system somehow to ensure they got the loot drops. We believe, a sure fire way to peeve someone off is to set the loot to lotto as it will 'appear' that one person will get more than the rest
Toger:
I understand your point about random distributions and how everything will revert back to the mean in the long run (i.e., everybody gets their share in the end) - the problem is though - I feel that the random seed or methodology SOE are using to distribute the loot can 'appear' to be bugged due to frequent long runs off 'bad luck' - yes, this is to be expected in a 'random walk' but sheesh!!!
Oldblue:
Your suggestion for fair loot splitting is exactly how we now do it - and have been doing for quite a while now
My brothers the meat shield and I'm a healer (plus have bigger bags) so I normally pick up everything whilst he goes charging off to the next mob. From there we follow the same pattern every night:
- Anything that drops, which we can use, is given to the appropriate person
- At the end of the night, we gate back to town
- I go to the bank and deposit any coins I may have on me
- I then go to our favourite vendor and flog the rest of the loot
- we then simply split the coin down the middle 50/50
- sometimes we give a little each way depending on if one of us had a bad run of deaths or something (to pay for the smithing, etc.)
This works well for us - as we are brothers and trust each other - good to see that Oldblue and others can rely on their friends to do the same. BUT - this would require a pretty big ask in a pickup group (i.e., would never happen) - could lead to some pretty snakey bickering too as some person may believe something 'should' have sold for 'x' amount whilst they only recieved 'y' on the split, etc., etc.
So..for us the one guy grabs and sells all approach works great - for others - well....
To be honest, I'd love to see a 'round-robin' (DAoC) type system of loot-splitting introduced - this just simply means that the loot drops are cycled between the chars - for example, me, you, me, you, me, you etc etc etc - that to me sounds the fairest
Anyways...
Fronglo:
Yes, I feel the lotto system of distributing loot to be anything but fair.
I only ever group with my brother - normally for 3 - 4hrs per night after work and anything up to 6-8hours on sat/sun.
We originally always used the lotto as we thought it would be a fair distribution of the loot but we have had many many times where one person keeps getting the loot - and I am not talking about for 2-3 drops, I am talking about for consecutive runs of multiple drops
Now, both of us were starting to get pretty peeved - not at the loot (as it was mostly crap) but that one person was always getting it and feeling guilty about it whilst the other guy got nothing for hours on end. I think it is nice to be able to get the roll on the loot even if it is crap as this gives me the right to distribute the loot as I see fit (i.e., sell or give away, etc.) - it's a side bonus to getting the loot in the first place. When one person continually gets the loots it's like I'm being robbed of that little (small) benefit - if it appeared random then fair enough, that's the name of the game - but, currently to my brother and I, loot distribution doesn't appear random at all - therefore, it is not fair
We have both talked about it many a time as we were grinding along and we have both agreed that if we didn't know the other person in the duo (i.e., a pickup group or whatever) then we'd instantly disband thinking that the person was hacking the system somehow to ensure they got the loot drops. We believe, a sure fire way to peeve someone off is to set the loot to lotto as it will 'appear' that one person will get more than the rest
Toger:
I understand your point about random distributions and how everything will revert back to the mean in the long run (i.e., everybody gets their share in the end) - the problem is though - I feel that the random seed or methodology SOE are using to distribute the loot can 'appear' to be bugged due to frequent long runs off 'bad luck' - yes, this is to be expected in a 'random walk' but sheesh!!!
Oldblue:
Your suggestion for fair loot splitting is exactly how we now do it - and have been doing for quite a while now
My brothers the meat shield and I'm a healer (plus have bigger bags) so I normally pick up everything whilst he goes charging off to the next mob. From there we follow the same pattern every night:
- Anything that drops, which we can use, is given to the appropriate person
- At the end of the night, we gate back to town
- I go to the bank and deposit any coins I may have on me
- I then go to our favourite vendor and flog the rest of the loot
- we then simply split the coin down the middle 50/50
- sometimes we give a little each way depending on if one of us had a bad run of deaths or something (to pay for the smithing, etc.)
This works well for us - as we are brothers and trust each other - good to see that Oldblue and others can rely on their friends to do the same. BUT - this would require a pretty big ask in a pickup group (i.e., would never happen) - could lead to some pretty snakey bickering too as some person may believe something 'should' have sold for 'x' amount whilst they only recieved 'y' on the split, etc., etc.
So..for us the one guy grabs and sells all approach works great - for others - well....
To be honest, I'd love to see a 'round-robin' (DAoC) type system of loot-splitting introduced - this just simply means that the loot drops are cycled between the chars - for example, me, you, me, you, me, you etc etc etc - that to me sounds the fairest
Anyways...
Scholar
30 posts
Lotto system works fine if you only want a random chance to get loot. Yes Matilda, random means RANDOM. It is not going to be fair ever. If you want something better then work out something with your group. For the life of me I can't understand why two people duoing would ever have problems sharing loot. Try this one next time you are in that situation: "Okay, you get this one, and I'll take the next one and so on.." See how that works? If they don't agree then disband.
Lotto in general is just a really cheesy way to distribute loot because every person has to do their share and in high end, rare drop situations the lotto can really kill a group fast because yes you will see some incredible runs of luck. On the plus side sometimes you will be that person that walks away with your inventory maxed out but it sucks when you are not that person which is usually the case it seems. Most high end encounters where the there is great loot at stake are much more organized and that's how it should be. However, if you are just killing yard trash, I can't see how this would even matter. You have to look at the big picture in all this.
Lotto in general is just a really cheesy way to distribute loot because every person has to do their share and in high end, rare drop situations the lotto can really kill a group fast because yes you will see some incredible runs of luck. On the plus side sometimes you will be that person that walks away with your inventory maxed out but it sucks when you are not that person which is usually the case it seems. Most high end encounters where the there is great loot at stake are much more organized and that's how it should be. However, if you are just killing yard trash, I can't see how this would even matter. You have to look at the big picture in all this.
16 posts
To me lotto only seem fair when it is used for a long time with the same group. Like weekends, when same group of ppl go on for hours and hours. Then, but just then you will start to see some real variations where the loot goes. Usually when you dont get anything, its easy to blame the lotto. But I have noticed a few occasions when I have been 'the lucky one' that after say 1-2 hours the luck suddenly changed and I started to get nothing. And yes, I basically won every lotto loot we had before. So what I am saying is that if you could run lotto with same ppl for days and days in a row, you all would probably have won pretty much the same amount of stuff. The shorter the period, the more unfair IT CAN BE.
Wulf
Wulf
Datheenker sez:
I don't see this as a plus... If I won every roll for hours on end, or even if I just won more than my fair share of rare drops and/or trash drops, I would feel guilty. I don't want to be the guy that cleans up, I want everyone in the group to profit... that way everyone has a good time and the group is successful.
Quote:
...On the plus side sometimes you will be that person that walks away with your inventory maxed out...
I don't see this as a plus... If I won every roll for hours on end, or even if I just won more than my fair share of rare drops and/or trash drops, I would feel guilty. I don't want to be the guy that cleans up, I want everyone in the group to profit... that way everyone has a good time and the group is successful.
I haven't really seen this with loot drops, but there are oddities to the RNG in tradeskilling. You can get 4 or 5 "Bad rounds" in a row, and there's no way that can be random. It's almost as if getting a bad result in one round gives you a much higher chance of getting a bad result in the next one. It does not appear to work in the opposite, good direction.
4 posts
Not sure about all of you but in the groups Im in we use NBG on anything thats important (adepts, weapons,armor etc) if you can and will use it you get it more or less. On all else we just use the lotto system and tbh... even if its borked (I dont know if it is) it cant rain all the time hehe Meaning one of these days you will be the one getting all the drops. You probably wont be complaining then ;)
Most of the groups I am are NBG on spells (minus masters of course) and usually if a lore and legend items drops those are NBG as well. In Guild groups usually if somebody asks for a weapon or armor they get it, however I have yet to be in a group where a weapon or piece of armor dropped that was a upgrade for anybody.
There have been a couple of times I have actually been the person who seems to win everything, and I personally will decline a few items when that happens. However it seems like most people don't. I know a certain person who probably has 6pp worth of those rare substitues and Master 1 spells on broker right now all won in groups we have both been in. In many situations these have been 2 man groups. Every single time I am grouped with this person they seem to win a majority of the good loot. I sometimes wonder if they might be useing some sort of hack or something.
There have been a couple of times I have actually been the person who seems to win everything, and I personally will decline a few items when that happens. However it seems like most people don't. I know a certain person who probably has 6pp worth of those rare substitues and Master 1 spells on broker right now all won in groups we have both been in. In many situations these have been 2 man groups. Every single time I am grouped with this person they seem to win a majority of the good loot. I sometimes wonder if they might be useing some sort of hack or something.
Hi
For a newbie who's relatively poor like me, loot means alot. I do believe in fairness with group lotto... like alot of you mentioned, I would feel guilty if I were the one walking away with most of the lotto wins in a group bc I feel everyone should get their fair share, but at the same time, I don't want to spend 8 hours in a group and come out of it with four skeleton hands that I can only get a pittance for at the merchant.
I love grouping but the group lotto thing sucks. I was grouped with a 'cool' group of people recently for several hours on a quest in BlackBurrow and someone else won a chest drop for something that I really wanted and the winner of the lotto couldn't use. (it was the first time I spoke up about wanting something, and I had not won a single lotto up to that point) Furthermore, the person who won it didn't even know or seem to care about the item, since he couldnt use it anyway. Once I mentioned wanting it, asked what he wanted in trade for it, he said "what do you want to offer me? How about 3s?" Before I had time to reply, someone else in the group pipes up and tells the guy he ought to sell it for more, so the guy changes his price to 10s... By this time I was getting pretty disgusted bc I'm the type who would just GIVE an item to someone in a group if I didn't need it (I do it all the time). I just bit my tongue, and finally ended all the back and forth by telling him I'd pay him 15s for it.
I guess I'm ranting about a common occurence, sorry. It's just aggravating when you spend all that time in a group winning nothing in lotto, finally see something you want/need and then have to pay the group member for it. For that reason, I'll spend a certain amount of my time soloing, hoping to get some good loot and not have to split it or hope that I get lucky on the lotto. Then, of course, I just have to keep my fingers crossed that my luck will be good with the drops.
BLEH... feels like forced soloing, but what can ya do?
I love grouping but the group lotto thing sucks. I was grouped with a 'cool' group of people recently for several hours on a quest in BlackBurrow and someone else won a chest drop for something that I really wanted and the winner of the lotto couldn't use. (it was the first time I spoke up about wanting something, and I had not won a single lotto up to that point) Furthermore, the person who won it didn't even know or seem to care about the item, since he couldnt use it anyway. Once I mentioned wanting it, asked what he wanted in trade for it, he said "what do you want to offer me? How about 3s?" Before I had time to reply, someone else in the group pipes up and tells the guy he ought to sell it for more, so the guy changes his price to 10s... By this time I was getting pretty disgusted bc I'm the type who would just GIVE an item to someone in a group if I didn't need it (I do it all the time). I just bit my tongue, and finally ended all the back and forth by telling him I'd pay him 15s for it.
I guess I'm ranting about a common occurence, sorry. It's just aggravating when you spend all that time in a group winning nothing in lotto, finally see something you want/need and then have to pay the group member for it. For that reason, I'll spend a certain amount of my time soloing, hoping to get some good loot and not have to split it or hope that I get lucky on the lotto. Then, of course, I just have to keep my fingers crossed that my luck will be good with the drops.
BLEH... feels like forced soloing, but what can ya do?
Maybe its not the lotto system so much as the players?
Really - if your stuck using the lotto system for most of your loot, there is a problem.
ideally, a good group would have one main looter who in the end sells all the stuff. Problem being that there isn't the /split option anymore and that bags get filled up too fast.
In this ideal group - people would only /random or lotto on items that are actual upgrades to something THAT character can use. Of course everyone always talks of money and how they NEED the money but that is what the first part or having a main looter is supposed to solve.
Of course - none of this helps anyways in most pick up groups where people are just silly.
My suggestion - make some friends that don't mind different looting options, or join a guild (usually loot is better in guild groups).
Really - if your stuck using the lotto system for most of your loot, there is a problem.
ideally, a good group would have one main looter who in the end sells all the stuff. Problem being that there isn't the /split option anymore and that bags get filled up too fast.
In this ideal group - people would only /random or lotto on items that are actual upgrades to something THAT character can use. Of course everyone always talks of money and how they NEED the money but that is what the first part or having a main looter is supposed to solve.
Of course - none of this helps anyways in most pick up groups where people are just silly.
My suggestion - make some friends that don't mind different looting options, or join a guild (usually loot is better in guild groups).
I have found that NBG works well, as long as the group members are civil and honest about it. Lotto is used in conjunction to sort out the junk (canine saliva, etc) that I don't need but will sell for a few coins.
I frequently decline things if there is someone in the group that can use it, especially spells. Haven't run across a Master book, yet, so don't know what kind of craziness that would throw the group into. :) I always announce that if there is something I loot that someone needs, please let me know and I'll hand it over.
My daughter (level 17 Crusader) was grouped in BB and a chest dropped a nice axe that not only she could use, but was an upgrade to her current weapon. After all the lotto bids were in, a Shaman won the axe. I had her politely ask the Shamman if he needed that axe, since the she could use it and it would be a nice upgrade. The Shaman replied that it would be good for an alt of his. "Oh, I thought we were NBG for the group here." we replied, and left it at that. My anxious sibling wanted to ask again for the axe, but I told her to "wait and let the seed grow". We were prepared to accept the decision of the lotto, however unfair it may seem, hoping NBG would see the light.
Sure enough, about 5 minutes later, a trade window comes up and the Shaman offered that axe, which we accepted with a hearty thanks.
/agree that ML with sell and split later won't work in pick-up groups. Too many folks leave and join at random times making a trip to the merchant prohibative. On a more organized group or raid, it should fare well.
/mood angry with a group member asking for money or trade for a looted item. That is just plain greedy. Hopefully with some polite coaching and maybe a few polite /tells, that greedy person would use NBG, knowing that his turn will eventually arrive.
And in a group whose members do not use NBG, my time in that group will be short lived. It's not because I'm not getting loot, it's becasue they are not being fair and honest to each other. And that not the kind of fun I want to have.
I frequently decline things if there is someone in the group that can use it, especially spells. Haven't run across a Master book, yet, so don't know what kind of craziness that would throw the group into. :) I always announce that if there is something I loot that someone needs, please let me know and I'll hand it over.
My daughter (level 17 Crusader) was grouped in BB and a chest dropped a nice axe that not only she could use, but was an upgrade to her current weapon. After all the lotto bids were in, a Shaman won the axe. I had her politely ask the Shamman if he needed that axe, since the she could use it and it would be a nice upgrade. The Shaman replied that it would be good for an alt of his. "Oh, I thought we were NBG for the group here." we replied, and left it at that. My anxious sibling wanted to ask again for the axe, but I told her to "wait and let the seed grow". We were prepared to accept the decision of the lotto, however unfair it may seem, hoping NBG would see the light.
Sure enough, about 5 minutes later, a trade window comes up and the Shaman offered that axe, which we accepted with a hearty thanks.
/agree that ML with sell and split later won't work in pick-up groups. Too many folks leave and join at random times making a trip to the merchant prohibative. On a more organized group or raid, it should fare well.
/mood angry with a group member asking for money or trade for a looted item. That is just plain greedy. Hopefully with some polite coaching and maybe a few polite /tells, that greedy person would use NBG, knowing that his turn will eventually arrive.
And in a group whose members do not use NBG, my time in that group will be short lived. It's not because I'm not getting loot, it's becasue they are not being fair and honest to each other. And that not the kind of fun I want to have.
Scholar
17 posts
ive noticed that when i decline on alot of the junk and lot on good stuff i win more maybe its the fairness evening out since i havnt been winning on anything else..just a thought
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