Ahh, I've just come back from about 3 week break (actually I cancelled) after I found out that they were going to cut out the interdependancy the in crafting. And now being back trying to sell stuff, just as I have imagined...none of the stuff that I had made is selling anymore. I was making a good living on maple quills and staves, but I have left my merchant on long hours and the only thing people are buyin is raw material. (And if they want to make changes, make us an auction house so we don't have to sit in out rooms).
On the flipside, I can make food easy that lasts up to 4 hours (though I'd much rather make food that lasts a shorter span), and I can never find any ranger adepts on the brokerage house. Since armor drops are plentiful, I have no reason to really buy anything from anyone.... How is this helping the economy?
I dunno, I have until the 13 before my time expires and if to see its going to be worth playing. I definately have a problem grinding out leveling if there is no reward or sense of satisfaction. Also I just don't see the world as being as populated as I had once seen...which bothers me too.
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I have had a similar experience of the patch, where perviously I was able to level making tapa paper and quills, sell them for a small profit (to vendor or player) and continue on. Since the patch, my stock of about 160 tapa paper is now selling to vendors for about 30cp (as opposed to 4sp before...5.6gp worth old stock devalued to about 0.5gp in one night...errk!!) and I find it a much slower process to sell to players who seem happier making their own. It has got to the point where my regular nightly gaming of 3-4 hours each night has plummeted to maybe 2 sessions a week for maybe 2 hours. I'm not usually one to get all upset about changes, but this one with tradeskilling has left me cold.
Maybe people are having similar experiences, hence the drop in population. Another reason for the apparent drop is that people are levelling and spreading themselves out across more zones. I remember on the first couple of days you couldnt move for players in the Peat Bogs, now you barely see two or three people in there at any one time.
Anyway, no doubt I will get back into it and adapt, but for now I'm happy yo have my life back for a bit :)
Minky
Maybe people are having similar experiences, hence the drop in population. Another reason for the apparent drop is that people are levelling and spreading themselves out across more zones. I remember on the first couple of days you couldnt move for players in the Peat Bogs, now you barely see two or three people in there at any one time.
Anyway, no doubt I will get back into it and adapt, but for now I'm happy yo have my life back for a bit :)
Minky
'course it is.. however the new economy has totally disrupted the old way of thinking...
the old way was to create stuff other classes needed and charge them (often over-charge them) for something they couldn't make but desperately needed and had no choice but to pay a likely inflated cost now or wait heaven knows how long until they found someone else..
this created a mass of people who couldn't level their craft because they were constantly waiting on someone else and hoping like @#%! they wouldn't get overcharged (typically in vain if it wasn't a guildie).. and it goes against one basic thing: choice. It created a FORCED dependency.. which, IMO is crap.
granted the old system was considerably more realistic, since I doubt carpenters make their own nails IRL, however sometimes realism has to take a backseat to simply fun.
In the new economy if you are say.. an alchemist.. your money doesn't lie in creating fifty thousand oils and tempers, it rest with the things you can make that no one else can... poisons (something I RARELY see for sale), potions, etc.. etc.. The new economy is designed to promote the higher level crafter as a specialists at creating an end product instead of someone who makes a truckload of parts and pieces.
Tailors are the ONLY ones who can make Light and very light armor, Need a ring.. go to a Jewler, Need a sword - weaponsmiths. Gone are the days of "need a fossle temper - hope and pray an alchemist was online willing to make it and not hammer you on the price," and honestly it's good riddance to a very bad greed inducing idea.
The market for parts is dead.. people will make it themselves now instead of take the time / effort to seek you out and pray you're in the mood to be helpful and have nothing else to do... The key to success in the new economy is finding out what you *CAN* do / make.. that no one else can (unless of course they chose the same crafting path you did).
as for the effect on the economy, well the patch is still relatively young so only time will tell.. but last night, for the first time since I started playing on launch day I actually found poison for sale at the broker, so that's promising.
honestly the only major issue remaing is the "in your room" selling situation.. hopefully with enough griping about it that situation will change since it really doesn't do or change anything.. the plan was to stop offline sales, but what's the difference between offline and AFK? very little IMO.. perhaps they'll see that fact soon.
the old way was to create stuff other classes needed and charge them (often over-charge them) for something they couldn't make but desperately needed and had no choice but to pay a likely inflated cost now or wait heaven knows how long until they found someone else..
this created a mass of people who couldn't level their craft because they were constantly waiting on someone else and hoping like @#%! they wouldn't get overcharged (typically in vain if it wasn't a guildie).. and it goes against one basic thing: choice. It created a FORCED dependency.. which, IMO is crap.
granted the old system was considerably more realistic, since I doubt carpenters make their own nails IRL, however sometimes realism has to take a backseat to simply fun.
In the new economy if you are say.. an alchemist.. your money doesn't lie in creating fifty thousand oils and tempers, it rest with the things you can make that no one else can... poisons (something I RARELY see for sale), potions, etc.. etc.. The new economy is designed to promote the higher level crafter as a specialists at creating an end product instead of someone who makes a truckload of parts and pieces.
Tailors are the ONLY ones who can make Light and very light armor, Need a ring.. go to a Jewler, Need a sword - weaponsmiths. Gone are the days of "need a fossle temper - hope and pray an alchemist was online willing to make it and not hammer you on the price," and honestly it's good riddance to a very bad greed inducing idea.
The market for parts is dead.. people will make it themselves now instead of take the time / effort to seek you out and pray you're in the mood to be helpful and have nothing else to do... The key to success in the new economy is finding out what you *CAN* do / make.. that no one else can (unless of course they chose the same crafting path you did).
as for the effect on the economy, well the patch is still relatively young so only time will tell.. but last night, for the first time since I started playing on launch day I actually found poison for sale at the broker, so that's promising.
honestly the only major issue remaing is the "in your room" selling situation.. hopefully with enough griping about it that situation will change since it really doesn't do or change anything.. the plan was to stop offline sales, but what's the difference between offline and AFK? very little IMO.. perhaps they'll see that fact soon.
I have to say I found I NEVER had a problem getting the tempers, oils and resins I needed from the broker or just asking on the crafting channel. I was never overcharged either and was getting along fine. I always bought out the broker if there was cheap/reasonable stuff so i had some reserves should there be a dry period.
I really dont want to make my own tempers. It gets tedious enough grinding out feyiron bars without having to grind the prereqs for that, and I find the stuff I need a lot more difficult to come across as people make their own and dont bother selling. But what galls me most is I had a lot of hard earned gold invested in stuff which is now almost worthless, so my cycle of make/sell/buy/make/sell/buy is totally broken and I have lost interest. xp is coming slow, I cant buy my parts anymore and the patch became one horrible moneysink for me.
I don't know...as I said, I will probably work back into it when I'm especially bored one day.
Minky
I really dont want to make my own tempers. It gets tedious enough grinding out feyiron bars without having to grind the prereqs for that, and I find the stuff I need a lot more difficult to come across as people make their own and dont bother selling. But what galls me most is I had a lot of hard earned gold invested in stuff which is now almost worthless, so my cycle of make/sell/buy/make/sell/buy is totally broken and I have lost interest. xp is coming slow, I cant buy my parts anymore and the patch became one horrible moneysink for me.
I don't know...as I said, I will probably work back into it when I'm especially bored one day.
Minky
the key to the new systems is the fact that now you have a choice...
if you don't want to spend the time grinding out tempers for sub-combines you can and always will have the option of looking someone up.. that hasn't changed. Granted I suspect the numbers for sale at brokers will diminish but you can always put in an order with someone...
however..
if your search for a merchant to work with comes up in vain, now you can go ahead and make them yourself.. instead of putting that crafting project on hold until someone comes along with the time and inclination to make your sub-combines.
and though you didn't overcharge people.. I assure you that your stance on pricing was likely an exception, not the rule.... I heard talk from MANY a 20+ crafter friend about getting utterly abused by Alchemists.. so much so I stopped crafting entirely until the new patch came about.
edit: in fact I told an IRL friend.. "gee since I don't need to hunt the crafter anymore.. I might just level to jewler now" to which he replied "please do!" because he doesn't WANT to do sub-combines either.. add to that he knows I'm not going to make him crap and he knows I'd make him components for free 'cause he's a friend.
so the system hasn't changed in the slighest.. it's simply been augmented for those of us who simply don't have the patience to hunt people down or the charisma to haggle prices... we just want to do it and see the final result without hinderance.
Edited, Mon Feb 28 14:47:32 2005 by Iaini
if you don't want to spend the time grinding out tempers for sub-combines you can and always will have the option of looking someone up.. that hasn't changed. Granted I suspect the numbers for sale at brokers will diminish but you can always put in an order with someone...
however..
if your search for a merchant to work with comes up in vain, now you can go ahead and make them yourself.. instead of putting that crafting project on hold until someone comes along with the time and inclination to make your sub-combines.
and though you didn't overcharge people.. I assure you that your stance on pricing was likely an exception, not the rule.... I heard talk from MANY a 20+ crafter friend about getting utterly abused by Alchemists.. so much so I stopped crafting entirely until the new patch came about.
edit: in fact I told an IRL friend.. "gee since I don't need to hunt the crafter anymore.. I might just level to jewler now" to which he replied "please do!" because he doesn't WANT to do sub-combines either.. add to that he knows I'm not going to make him crap and he knows I'd make him components for free 'cause he's a friend.
so the system hasn't changed in the slighest.. it's simply been augmented for those of us who simply don't have the patience to hunt people down or the charisma to haggle prices... we just want to do it and see the final result without hinderance.
Edited, Mon Feb 28 14:47:32 2005 by Iaini
I understand that point of view, and since I have no choice in the matter I will have to try and adapt or seek another game.
However, that being said... One of the cool things about crafting was the interdependacy (IMHO). It did take me awhile to figure out the system, but it was rather easy to attain oils and tempers... and in the process gave me more of a community spirit....and I could make some decent coin in the process. As far as having to wait for for sub-components to become available, I look at it this way- There have been quests that I could not complete when I wanted to, does that mean the entire quest system should be reworked to make it easier to complete quests whenever I want?
I would guess materials would have been alot more plentiful if there was an auction house where players who may not have the wherewithall to have a character sitting in thier apartment all hours. I give the alchemists who made oils and tempers credit for understanding the system and having characters sitting in the rooms selling stuff while everyone was busy complaining.
...now I will don my +5 flame retardant subligar.
However, that being said... One of the cool things about crafting was the interdependacy (IMHO). It did take me awhile to figure out the system, but it was rather easy to attain oils and tempers... and in the process gave me more of a community spirit....and I could make some decent coin in the process. As far as having to wait for for sub-components to become available, I look at it this way- There have been quests that I could not complete when I wanted to, does that mean the entire quest system should be reworked to make it easier to complete quests whenever I want?
I would guess materials would have been alot more plentiful if there was an auction house where players who may not have the wherewithall to have a character sitting in thier apartment all hours. I give the alchemists who made oils and tempers credit for understanding the system and having characters sitting in the rooms selling stuff while everyone was busy complaining.
...now I will don my +5 flame retardant subligar.
no flames.. I'm not the burning type.. good discussion is a totally different matter. So loose thy flame-retardant garments. :-P
anywho..
There have been many a quest that could not have been completed upon getting them.. but tradeskilling and questing are totally different beast despite both having XP meters..
case in point: Fallen Gate access quest with my predator (assassin now). After having no luck finding a group for fallen gate I decided to just not worry about it and try to solo it at 19th level... tried.. didn't work, so I thought about the fight.. it was darn close, with that in mind I had four options:
find a group..
different tactics and hope it payed off..
purchase items like potions to heal wounds..
wait til 20th level at which time it would be a cake walk..
since I had more than enough things to do aside from FG, I figured I'd wait and finish my advancement to 20th level.. which I did.. and after dinging 20th I walked in and wiped the place clean of everything, however I had the choice.. find a group (interdependent system) or wait and do it alone (new system).
the difference between this and the tradeskill interdependecies is that you couldn't just wait and do it alone later. With the old system there were no choices.. it was simply this: pay up.. or don't make that item... try to find someone else at which time the options were persented again without alteration. Technically it's a choice but in reality only one option is useful to you.
choices are good: wait for someone to make items for you which, if they give you a good price, will work out slightly better than the new system.. However, the new system allows you to craft all the sub-combines but if you have to dump the item to an NPC they're only going to pay you the cost of the final product.. so:
work together to make items and likely save money (now)...
solo it.. burn a bit of cash, but not feel impeaded by others..
add to that the new system makes the old one work better since people are less likely to rip you apart on the price of subcombines knowing full well that if they try you'll just do it yourself.. it's in their best interest to charge a fair price now and not "price hike" so to speak... The new system will keep the overcharging for parts to a minimum since overchargers will see zero sales...
of course that said, the market for sub's is going to dry up.. odds are you'll have to place an order for something since I doubt people will make them like crazy anymore.
there are advantages to this as well, firstly you don't have to wonder "am I going to find the buckles I need today?" because you've placed an order.. it's your right to expect the item in a somewhat timely manner (barring real life issues of course). The chances of you having what you need / want when you want it are better knowing someone has been commissioned to make it if you don't want to do so yourself.
______________________________________________________
as for the selling model.. changing that would have very likely made the interdependency issue a lot easier to deal with.. however the two together were horrible.. Had the system existed to creat offline sales it would have created a place where people were in competition with everyone.. not just the people who happend to be online, in room, selling at that moment in time..
no doubt this competition would have forced prices to level out and a concensus would have appeard about how much to charge for what item.
personally I have no issue with the "no offline" part of the selling model.. it's the "must be in room" part that truly drags it down and honestly at least that part should be changed if not a total overhaul of the system.
_____________________________________________________
regardless as it stands now I'll be quite content to level my craft and not hunt people down and take orders for those who don't feel like making sub-combines. (I allready have friends saying LEVEL JEWELER... NOW! they're scary)...
the one thing I do agree on however is the sense of community.. I'm the type to simply go and do. I don't like waiting for other people.. however I'm willing to wait and do it myself later if the only other option is dealing with people who can't get it together.... BUT forced grouping does create a sense of community because you *do* meet people.. often the same circle of people.. and over time you get to know them, because without them you're stuck.
I can accept being stuck due to game mechanics, those are simple enough to figure out a tactic for and work with but somethings are designed to not be beatable right now, that's fine by me.. Being stuck solely due to people however.. well that's a lot more difficult for me to work with.
Edited, Tue Mar 1 09:00:44 2005 by Iaini
anywho..
Quote:
There have been quests that I could not complete when I wanted to, does that mean the entire quest system should be reworked to make it easier to complete quests whenever I want?
There have been many a quest that could not have been completed upon getting them.. but tradeskilling and questing are totally different beast despite both having XP meters..
case in point: Fallen Gate access quest with my predator (assassin now). After having no luck finding a group for fallen gate I decided to just not worry about it and try to solo it at 19th level... tried.. didn't work, so I thought about the fight.. it was darn close, with that in mind I had four options:
find a group..
different tactics and hope it payed off..
purchase items like potions to heal wounds..
wait til 20th level at which time it would be a cake walk..
since I had more than enough things to do aside from FG, I figured I'd wait and finish my advancement to 20th level.. which I did.. and after dinging 20th I walked in and wiped the place clean of everything, however I had the choice.. find a group (interdependent system) or wait and do it alone (new system).
the difference between this and the tradeskill interdependecies is that you couldn't just wait and do it alone later. With the old system there were no choices.. it was simply this: pay up.. or don't make that item... try to find someone else at which time the options were persented again without alteration. Technically it's a choice but in reality only one option is useful to you.
choices are good: wait for someone to make items for you which, if they give you a good price, will work out slightly better than the new system.. However, the new system allows you to craft all the sub-combines but if you have to dump the item to an NPC they're only going to pay you the cost of the final product.. so:
work together to make items and likely save money (now)...
solo it.. burn a bit of cash, but not feel impeaded by others..
add to that the new system makes the old one work better since people are less likely to rip you apart on the price of subcombines knowing full well that if they try you'll just do it yourself.. it's in their best interest to charge a fair price now and not "price hike" so to speak... The new system will keep the overcharging for parts to a minimum since overchargers will see zero sales...
of course that said, the market for sub's is going to dry up.. odds are you'll have to place an order for something since I doubt people will make them like crazy anymore.
there are advantages to this as well, firstly you don't have to wonder "am I going to find the buckles I need today?" because you've placed an order.. it's your right to expect the item in a somewhat timely manner (barring real life issues of course). The chances of you having what you need / want when you want it are better knowing someone has been commissioned to make it if you don't want to do so yourself.
______________________________________________________
as for the selling model.. changing that would have very likely made the interdependency issue a lot easier to deal with.. however the two together were horrible.. Had the system existed to creat offline sales it would have created a place where people were in competition with everyone.. not just the people who happend to be online, in room, selling at that moment in time..
no doubt this competition would have forced prices to level out and a concensus would have appeard about how much to charge for what item.
personally I have no issue with the "no offline" part of the selling model.. it's the "must be in room" part that truly drags it down and honestly at least that part should be changed if not a total overhaul of the system.
_____________________________________________________
regardless as it stands now I'll be quite content to level my craft and not hunt people down and take orders for those who don't feel like making sub-combines. (I allready have friends saying LEVEL JEWELER... NOW! they're scary)...
the one thing I do agree on however is the sense of community.. I'm the type to simply go and do. I don't like waiting for other people.. however I'm willing to wait and do it myself later if the only other option is dealing with people who can't get it together.... BUT forced grouping does create a sense of community because you *do* meet people.. often the same circle of people.. and over time you get to know them, because without them you're stuck.
I can accept being stuck due to game mechanics, those are simple enough to figure out a tactic for and work with but somethings are designed to not be beatable right now, that's fine by me.. Being stuck solely due to people however.. well that's a lot more difficult for me to work with.
Edited, Tue Mar 1 09:00:44 2005 by Iaini
Yes after playing a bit more I see it's going to be a matter of changing my playing style in the tradeskill department. Still it's a shame they changed the gameplay the way they did, when they could have just changed the way the people sell their wares. I do like the fact that they let you put emty bag in bags....that will give me more incentive to make backpacks.
BTW how is Guild Wars?
BTW how is Guild Wars?
guild wars is interesting...
it's more closer in play to an Action RPG than a more traditional RPG.. but it is fun, however I think it's going to be the big LAN party game for myself and our circle of friends because it is free, and we can hop in and do stuff and plan it out and not need to migrate computers to someone's house.
graphically it's amazing... gameplay is very fast and direct.. the game is simple in that it is what it is.. see mob.. kill mob... move on.
the quest system takes you from place to place in a fashion similar to Dungeon Siege.
travel is wonderful, click map, click location.. brief loading screen and you're there. Only thing is you must have visited the place at least once to travel in this manner.
technically there are no tradeskilling in the game.. you just collect components, take to an NPC, click what you want made and it's done.
the outside world is one big instance for you and your group, there's literally no other players out with you that you don't take into your party.. every mob, every item, every named is yours to fight or pick up... it is physically impossible to kill steal in GuildWars.. because there's no one else there... you meet up in town.. group, and go out into *your* instance of the world.
the game was designed to be fast, simple, but enjoyable... which they did succeed in... it's not a "deep" game by any means.. but it's nice sometimes to have something you can just load up and go out and do some simple questing and exploration while killing the flora and fauna of the world.
it's more closer in play to an Action RPG than a more traditional RPG.. but it is fun, however I think it's going to be the big LAN party game for myself and our circle of friends because it is free, and we can hop in and do stuff and plan it out and not need to migrate computers to someone's house.
graphically it's amazing... gameplay is very fast and direct.. the game is simple in that it is what it is.. see mob.. kill mob... move on.
the quest system takes you from place to place in a fashion similar to Dungeon Siege.
travel is wonderful, click map, click location.. brief loading screen and you're there. Only thing is you must have visited the place at least once to travel in this manner.
technically there are no tradeskilling in the game.. you just collect components, take to an NPC, click what you want made and it's done.
the outside world is one big instance for you and your group, there's literally no other players out with you that you don't take into your party.. every mob, every item, every named is yours to fight or pick up... it is physically impossible to kill steal in GuildWars.. because there's no one else there... you meet up in town.. group, and go out into *your* instance of the world.
the game was designed to be fast, simple, but enjoyable... which they did succeed in... it's not a "deep" game by any means.. but it's nice sometimes to have something you can just load up and go out and do some simple questing and exploration while killing the flora and fauna of the world.
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