Im about to do the lvl20 class quest but i realy cant decide if i should be a guardian or a berserker because i know next to nothing about them. So if anyone could offer me any information or advice on the two classes or even just your own experiences with the two that would be a great help.
Thanks
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Guardian or Berserker?Follow
It's pretty simple really, Guardian is all about defense and Zerker is Offensive. Just think about how you want to play. Do you want to be the main tank, with heaps of taunts and defensive buffs, or do you want to be all about dps and attack?
zerkers are pretty broken atm though.. paladins have far better dps.
And all tanking classes will be nerfed in dmg output in liveupdate 3.
I would pick guardian.
Lots more have to effect your dicission though.. Like:
You solo alot?
Duo?
Or full groups?
Raid?
And all tanking classes will be nerfed in dmg output in liveupdate 3.
I would pick guardian.
Lots more have to effect your dicission though.. Like:
You solo alot?
Duo?
Or full groups?
Raid?
The fact that paladins have better dps than zerkers isn't something that is "broken." Crusaders are supposed to do more damage than both Guardians and Zerkers. The whole Fighter class looks like this:
Brawler
Crusader
Zerker
Guardian
With the top of the list being most dps, and the bottom being most defense. The reason both Warrior subclasses are listed is because they are neutral. Monks have certain advantages over Bruisers and vice versa, but since they are different alignments, and they want to keep the factions balanced, it is real tough to tell who does more damage. But don't be confused, Zerkers are true tanks. They are tanks that happen to be more offensive than Guardians. They aren't as offensive as the rest though, and aren't supposed to be. Think about it, if you could do more dps with zerker and have better defense with zerker, what would be the point of being a paladin/sk?
Edited, Fri Feb 11 08:58:49 2005 by Heightserz
Brawler
Crusader
Zerker
Guardian
With the top of the list being most dps, and the bottom being most defense. The reason both Warrior subclasses are listed is because they are neutral. Monks have certain advantages over Bruisers and vice versa, but since they are different alignments, and they want to keep the factions balanced, it is real tough to tell who does more damage. But don't be confused, Zerkers are true tanks. They are tanks that happen to be more offensive than Guardians. They aren't as offensive as the rest though, and aren't supposed to be. Think about it, if you could do more dps with zerker and have better defense with zerker, what would be the point of being a paladin/sk?
Edited, Fri Feb 11 08:58:49 2005 by Heightserz
WHere did you get that info?
I think I read somewhere official that zerkers are supposed to be the most offensive (dps) tank in the game.
I could be wrong and thats why I want to know where you got that info :)
I think I read somewhere official that zerkers are supposed to be the most offensive (dps) tank in the game.
I could be wrong and thats why I want to know where you got that info :)
I got it from my own experience. Sorry I don't currently have any numbers on the subject, but in my guild we have a lot of both crusaders and zerkers. Zerkers create much more rage than crusaders and do more damage than Crusaders, but all other things equal (level, equipment, etc.) a Crusader outdamages a Zerker. Like I said, why would anyone be a crusader if zerkers could tank better and do more damage than a crusader?
Edited, Fri Feb 11 10:37:32 2005 by Heightserz
Edited, Fri Feb 11 10:37:32 2005 by Heightserz
I could ask a couple guild members to get me some hard numbers.
Sorry Height but you are off a bit. Zerkers do more damage then Crusaders, but Crusaders can take more damage. That is the design of the two classes. Anyone telling you that Crusaders do more damage is either just not paying attention, or has inferior spell upgrades and equipment.
If you compare equal Zerkers and Crusaders (all app4 spells and orange gear) the Zerker will always out DPS and the Crusader will always take more damage.
If you compare equal Zerkers and Crusaders (all app4 spells and orange gear) the Zerker will always out DPS and the Crusader will always take more damage.
Then why put zerkers and guardians together in same class (warrior)? Paladins and SK are very very very similar, as are Monks and Bruisers. So why would a zerker be more like brawler and less like a guardian? Also, if what you are saying is true, then why would you play a brawler if you are out damaged by zerkers and out defensed by everyone? Wouldn't you opt for zerker or crusader over brawler everytime? Like I said, I'll get a couple of my guild members to get me some hard data.
Edited, Fri Feb 11 11:18:22 2005 by Heightserz
Edited, Fri Feb 11 11:17:20 2005 by Heightserz
Edited, Fri Feb 11 11:18:22 2005 by Heightserz
Edited, Fri Feb 11 11:17:20 2005 by Heightserz
Scholar
46 posts
Quote:
Zerkers create much more rage than crusaders and do more damage than Crusaders, but all other things equal (level, equipment, etc.) a Crusader outdamages a Zerker
Huh?
Quote:
Then why put zerkers and guardians together in same class (warrior)? Paladins and SK are very very very similar, as are Monks and Bruisers. So why would a zerker be more like brawler and less like a guardian? Also, if what you are saying is true, then why would you play a brawler if you are out damaged by zerkers and out defensed by everyone? Wouldn't you opt for zerker or crusader over brawler everytime? Like I said, I'll get a couple of my guild members to get me some hard data.
There's a post by Moorgard on the official forums where he states that Berserkers are suppose to do a bit more damage than Guardians, but not Brawlers. I'll do a search on that site and see if I can find it.
It makes sense to me that Berserkers and Guardians are both under the warrior tree. They're pretty much the same beast, just different focus on their abilities. As you should note, the Warrior line of subclasses are neutral aligned, whereas the Brawler and Crusader's are polarized (one good, one evil). Each Archetype, I believe, has two align specific classes and one neutral class.
Brawlers do the most damage of the Fighter Archetype, or they're suppose to. Berserkers should come in second because of their offensive buffs. I'm guessing one would choose a Berserker because they want to be able to take hits as well as give them. Those who choose Brawlers would rather give the hits while avoiding any repercussions. As for Crusaders, I was led to believe that they do a bit of both, offense and defense. More knowledgeable folk can correct me on them.
I'll look for the post and edit this reply (unless you happen to find it yourself, before I do).
*edited*
Hey, their search actually worked! Here's his post and a reply he later posted.
Recent Berserker Changes and RE: Recent Berserker Changes
I didn't see him mention Crusaders, but here's a small snippet:
Quote:
In terms of damage output, berserkers are intended to fall behind bruisers and monks. Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian.
Now, this is what they envision... it may not be in practice as there are bugs they gotta squash. But there it is.
Of course, what started off another debate (read ********* was this part: "Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian." And rightly so, since they stated from the start that all subclasses should be equal in terms of tanking. He should have said that Berserkers are not as defensive oriented as Guardians. :/
Edited, Fri Feb 11 13:52:11 2005 by ArcosKojin
Scholar
46 posts
More importantly, the original post is writen by a warrior. So what is the point in talking about Crusaders and Brawlers? Last time I checked you can't be a warrior and switch to crusader or brawler. Or has this post been hijacked by yet another "my tank class is better than your tank class" group of players.
What I would ask the original poster is whether or he wants to be offensive (Berzerker) or defensive (Guardian). It comes down to this.
What I would ask the original poster is whether or he wants to be offensive (Berzerker) or defensive (Guardian). It comes down to this.
ShaughnAsura wrote:
Quote:
Zerkers create much more rage than crusaders and do more damage than Crusaders, but all other things equal (level, equipment, etc.) a Crusader outdamages a Zerker
Huh?
Sorry I ment more damage than Guardians. Typing too fast :)
Arcos, aren't you saying the same thing about both of them????
So once again I ask, Why would you want to be one or the other?? Something has to distinquish them. Sony wouldn't waste the time putting both in the game if they are so so similar. I think people want berserkers to do more damage that they actually do, but I will find out for sure over the weekend.
Edited, Fri Feb 11 15:03:02 2005 by Heightserz
Quote:
As for Crusaders, I was led to believe that they do a bit of both, offense and defense.
Quote:
I'm guessing one would choose a Berserker because they want to be able to take hits as well as give them.
So once again I ask, Why would you want to be one or the other?? Something has to distinquish them. Sony wouldn't waste the time putting both in the game if they are so so similar. I think people want berserkers to do more damage that they actually do, but I will find out for sure over the weekend.
Edited, Fri Feb 11 15:03:02 2005 by Heightserz
I guess what I'm thinking is out of the 4 fighter classes, they wouldn't make:
Brawlers best offense, worst defense.
Crusaders middle offense, middle defense.
Guardians best defense, worst offense.
Zerkers second best at both.
See what I'm saying. They are supposed to be balanced. If Zerkers are #2 offensively and defensively, then there is inbalance.
The rankings would go (1,4) (2,3) (3,2) and (4,1) in order to be balanced.
**Remember I am saying 4 fighter classes assuming that monk and bruiser are about equal, as are both crusader classes.
Edited, Fri Feb 11 15:12:13 2005 by Heightserz
Brawlers best offense, worst defense.
Crusaders middle offense, middle defense.
Guardians best defense, worst offense.
Zerkers second best at both.
See what I'm saying. They are supposed to be balanced. If Zerkers are #2 offensively and defensively, then there is inbalance.
The rankings would go (1,4) (2,3) (3,2) and (4,1) in order to be balanced.
**Remember I am saying 4 fighter classes assuming that monk and bruiser are about equal, as are both crusader classes.
Edited, Fri Feb 11 15:12:13 2005 by Heightserz
I am no SOE developer so take what I say as strictly personal opinion.
Berserkers are meant to deal more damage than crusaders. I see a lot of buffs that enhance Berserker damage than Crusaders. In the same vein, I would also assume that Guardians have the advantage of defense compared to Crusaders mainly because of their own defensive buffs. The Crusader class, to me, is the Jack Of All Trades and do not excel either or. Crusaders should correct me here.
Now, it's to your experience that Crusaders did more damage than Berserkers? Is this an isolated experience (meaning, only in your guild or in the few parties you've been in)? Because if this was the norm, you'd see posts like "OMFG Paladins out damaged my Zerker, WTFBBQKITTENZCHICKENSOUP!!!one1one1one!" I haven't seen such posts (then again, I haven't browsed the subclass forums in a few weeks). I'm assuming that the discrepancy you experienced is either caused by lack of skill, lack of understanding their class, equipment, level differences or any combination of those previously listed.
I see Berserkers as being like any warrior. In fact, I see the Zerkers and Guards to be pretty much the same... that is until they bust out their buffs. Guardians become highly defensive at the cost of their damage output while Berserkers become highly offensive at the cost of their defense. Now the path of thought I can see here is that since Guardians would be the best (debateable, of course) at defense (damage mitigation) then why aren't Berserkers the best at offense (damage output)? The reason? I would gather is Hate Management. The Berserker, with all it's offensive buffs, are the best Fighter Archetype to get Insta-Hate. Guardian's can use their covering abilities to mitigate damage but it wouldn't draw as much hate as, let's say, Bloodlust (even if it wasn't broken). As I may have mentioned before, I haven't done much research into Crusaders. They never really interested me because I play a pld in the other game and wanted something different. I don't know where they'd match up as compared to the Berserker and Guardian, but I don't believe that an equally levelled, skilled and equipped Paladin/Shadowknight can do more damage than a Berserker. So why choose Crusader? I don't know. If we had skilled Crusaders viewing these boards, I beg of them to discuss their abilities.
Pound for pound, I believe each subclass is appropriately balanced, or should be, to each other. The flavor is the only difference. Why would you choose a Berserker over a Crusader type? Well, do you want to also have to heal people? Do you want to be forced not to use any ranged weapon? Do you want a free mount? If so, go Crusader. If you want to be the King of Hate Management (debateable, of course) and care only for carnage and being able to take a hammer to the face and keep smiling, choose a Berserker. If you want to eschew damage for being able to get hit by a griffon at full speed and not only keep standing but dent the beak of the griffon, while smiling... choose Guardian. If you want to be all dodgy dodgy and beat your foes to submission, choose Brawler.
Seriously, if the classes weren't balanced, we wouldn't be having these debates. Because they are, people are asking "Why choose this class over this class?"
For min/maxers, I can't say... but for those that just want to have fun and not care about the most optimal type, I'd say... Be whatever you want to be.
*added*
Holy Altana's butt, I made a novel. Sorry about that. hehe
Edited, Fri Feb 11 20:59:09 2005 by ArcosKojin
Berserkers are meant to deal more damage than crusaders. I see a lot of buffs that enhance Berserker damage than Crusaders. In the same vein, I would also assume that Guardians have the advantage of defense compared to Crusaders mainly because of their own defensive buffs. The Crusader class, to me, is the Jack Of All Trades and do not excel either or. Crusaders should correct me here.
Now, it's to your experience that Crusaders did more damage than Berserkers? Is this an isolated experience (meaning, only in your guild or in the few parties you've been in)? Because if this was the norm, you'd see posts like "OMFG Paladins out damaged my Zerker, WTFBBQKITTENZCHICKENSOUP!!!one1one1one!" I haven't seen such posts (then again, I haven't browsed the subclass forums in a few weeks). I'm assuming that the discrepancy you experienced is either caused by lack of skill, lack of understanding their class, equipment, level differences or any combination of those previously listed.
I see Berserkers as being like any warrior. In fact, I see the Zerkers and Guards to be pretty much the same... that is until they bust out their buffs. Guardians become highly defensive at the cost of their damage output while Berserkers become highly offensive at the cost of their defense. Now the path of thought I can see here is that since Guardians would be the best (debateable, of course) at defense (damage mitigation) then why aren't Berserkers the best at offense (damage output)? The reason? I would gather is Hate Management. The Berserker, with all it's offensive buffs, are the best Fighter Archetype to get Insta-Hate. Guardian's can use their covering abilities to mitigate damage but it wouldn't draw as much hate as, let's say, Bloodlust (even if it wasn't broken). As I may have mentioned before, I haven't done much research into Crusaders. They never really interested me because I play a pld in the other game and wanted something different. I don't know where they'd match up as compared to the Berserker and Guardian, but I don't believe that an equally levelled, skilled and equipped Paladin/Shadowknight can do more damage than a Berserker. So why choose Crusader? I don't know. If we had skilled Crusaders viewing these boards, I beg of them to discuss their abilities.
Pound for pound, I believe each subclass is appropriately balanced, or should be, to each other. The flavor is the only difference. Why would you choose a Berserker over a Crusader type? Well, do you want to also have to heal people? Do you want to be forced not to use any ranged weapon? Do you want a free mount? If so, go Crusader. If you want to be the King of Hate Management (debateable, of course) and care only for carnage and being able to take a hammer to the face and keep smiling, choose a Berserker. If you want to eschew damage for being able to get hit by a griffon at full speed and not only keep standing but dent the beak of the griffon, while smiling... choose Guardian. If you want to be all dodgy dodgy and beat your foes to submission, choose Brawler.
Seriously, if the classes weren't balanced, we wouldn't be having these debates. Because they are, people are asking "Why choose this class over this class?"
For min/maxers, I can't say... but for those that just want to have fun and not care about the most optimal type, I'd say... Be whatever you want to be.
*added*
Holy Altana's butt, I made a novel. Sorry about that. hehe
Edited, Fri Feb 11 20:59:09 2005 by ArcosKojin
umm.. why the zerker to crusader??? isnt that apples an oranges? your compairing a level 10 job to a level 20 job. if that damn zerker isn't doing more than the crusader he should jus quit the game
so really shouldnt this be
Berserker being compaired to SK or Paladin? atleast then it would be a coupla level 20 jobs being compaired.
yep, this is exactly what i told a guild mate of mine, he said more towards butt kickin so i said pick zerker
Edited, Sat Feb 12 02:48:32 2005 by Xaeroo
so really shouldnt this be
Berserker being compaired to SK or Paladin? atleast then it would be a coupla level 20 jobs being compaired.
Quote:
What I would ask the original poster is whether or he wants to be offensive (Berzerker) or defensive (Guardian). It comes down to this.
yep, this is exactly what i told a guild mate of mine, he said more towards butt kickin so i said pick zerker
Edited, Sat Feb 12 02:48:32 2005 by Xaeroo
Quote:
Why would you choose a Berserker over a Crusader type? Well, do you want to also have to heal people
Arcos, crusaders don't heal anyone. They ward and buff, not heal.
was in a group with my necro last night , and we had one of both .
While they both have their strengths , I have to say i like standing behind a guardian .
I accidentally overnuked this skele with master's strike (thought it was deep enough in agro to the tanks ) and this skele hit me HARD, like half my life .The zerker was trying to get him off me and while he was doin alot of damage , he couldnt get agro back from the master strike i had casted .
The guardian spun around and taunted the dust right of the skeles bones , ticked him off real good and the skele forgot about that spell i had casted .
So all i got to say (like everyone else on this thread ) is if you wanna be as effective as a MT as you can , be a guardian . If you want to dish out DPS and be a back up tank that can still take hits be a zerk . If you just like DPS and dont mind getting hit hard , be a bruiser . All in all there is going to be a place for you in any group regardless.
While they both have their strengths , I have to say i like standing behind a guardian .
I accidentally overnuked this skele with master's strike (thought it was deep enough in agro to the tanks ) and this skele hit me HARD, like half my life .The zerker was trying to get him off me and while he was doin alot of damage , he couldnt get agro back from the master strike i had casted .
The guardian spun around and taunted the dust right of the skeles bones , ticked him off real good and the skele forgot about that spell i had casted .
So all i got to say (like everyone else on this thread ) is if you wanna be as effective as a MT as you can , be a guardian . If you want to dish out DPS and be a back up tank that can still take hits be a zerk . If you just like DPS and dont mind getting hit hard , be a bruiser . All in all there is going to be a place for you in any group regardless.
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