It is highly contested what seperates the good from the bad and the bad from the downright loathsome. Of course, most would say that bad is seperated by loathsome by player attitude. To that, I would be inclined to agree.
What I would like to offer is a few thoughts on the DPS classes. My main character is Straath Phalynxscale, an Iksar Guardian on Innothule. My job as a tank in a group is to set what I like to call a "hate threshold".
The job of every single DPS class is to do as much damage within that threshold. It is not the job of DPS classes to steal aggro away from the tank by mashing every skill button on your hotbar. In fact, the detriment you cause by doing so can be immense.
Firstly, scout classes 85% of your DPS comes from behind or flanking the mob. If you do damage outside of the "hate threshold" and the mob turns around to face you, your DPS just took a huge cut because you can not get behind the mob. Evade and stop attacking. Let the tank regain the aggro and reset that threshold, then you can go back to killing.
Mages, you have the damage mitigation of a wet paper bag. Manage your aggro!! All you gain by overnuking is, best case an exhausted healer wishing for more power or, worst case, Welcome to Dead, Population--YOU. If you get aggro, stop casting spells, period. Let the tank regain the aggro and reset that threshold, then you can go back to killing.
Admittedly, different tanks set different thresholds. Find out where that threshold is as quickly as possible and use it to your advantage.
The bottom line is that a chimp with A.D.D. can sit there smacking buttons. Your job is not that mindless. Let's see a little finesse from our wizards and swashbucklers. That is what seperates the bad from the good.
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Threshold strategy (or DPS and you)Follow
woot 3 cheers, this is so true. also forgot to mention the additional power that you as the tank must waste in a sometime feeble attempt to regain aggro aswell. thus increasin downtime after each fight
This is precisely why my healer (Fury) went to pretty much 100% solo, back when I played this game regularly.
People were predicting in a few months that this sort of stuff would gradually stop happening. For all of your sakes I hope it does. The real problem is that the idiot making these mistakes probably lack the synaptic power required to come to a site like this, read such a post, connect the dots, and realize it makes a big arrow pointing at them. Sigh.
People were predicting in a few months that this sort of stuff would gradually stop happening. For all of your sakes I hope it does. The real problem is that the idiot making these mistakes probably lack the synaptic power required to come to a site like this, read such a post, connect the dots, and realize it makes a big arrow pointing at them. Sigh.
yep thats the beauty of being an sk, i always tell people steal the hate an i kill you, then boot ur *** out of pt ifthey continue to attack that is
It's a matter of balance. The tank has to work too.
The sustainability of the party depends on power pool. Unlike EQ it is now everyone's power that matters and not just the healer. If you are ending fights with tank on full power then there is scope for more hate generation and potentially more dps.
The principle of what you say is true but there are two sides to it. And I totally disagree that it is the tanks job to decide the threshold. It is up to the party to arrive at a sustainable threshold. Sure the tank is the one who knows how he is doing but no way does he decide how much hate to generate. This is a recipe for lazy tanks to blame the dps classes because they cannot hold aggro.
You have to balance the power needed to generate that hate against the extra dps that could be done with a higher threshold.
The sustainability of the party depends on power pool. Unlike EQ it is now everyone's power that matters and not just the healer. If you are ending fights with tank on full power then there is scope for more hate generation and potentially more dps.
The principle of what you say is true but there are two sides to it. And I totally disagree that it is the tanks job to decide the threshold. It is up to the party to arrive at a sustainable threshold. Sure the tank is the one who knows how he is doing but no way does he decide how much hate to generate. This is a recipe for lazy tanks to blame the dps classes because they cannot hold aggro.
You have to balance the power needed to generate that hate against the extra dps that could be done with a higher threshold.
Wherever I go - there I am.
not gonna disagree with that, but what i am sayin is people using up all there power in 1 fight. where they feel they constantly hafta be pullin off moves an never stopping. i mean hell if everyone else is at 3/4 power an 1 person is completly drained there has got to be a problem an depending on who is drained will show the prob. if healers out an the rest are good, then everyone needs to step it up a little. if the tank is out an everyone else is good, then maybe the tanks wastin power on various moves or havin to try to pull hate back, then once again others need to step out their output. if its just 1 dps that constantly going all out then i think perhaps he's the problem. cuz if u dont wait for him to get back up then he slows killin down from then on out untill the pt decides for power break or spawn break. but then maybe your jus incredably gifted and fortunate never to have gotten one of those people who just feel the need that they hafta rip hate from the tank jus to show how much damage they can do or cuz they dont know jack about pt's and fight each battle as they would solo
Scholar
46 posts
Quote:
The principle of what you say is true but there are two sides to it. And I totally disagree that it is the tanks job to decide the threshold. It is up to the party to arrive at a sustainable threshold. Sure the tank is the one who knows how he is doing but no way does he decide how much hate to generate. This is a recipe for lazy tanks to blame the dps classes because they cannot hold aggro.
I must respectfully disagree. It is the tanks responsibility to establish the hate threshold. The threshold is established by taunting every 8 seconds, by shouting every 30 seconds. The tank is the only member of the group that can do these things regardless of what direction he recieves from the rest of the group. I can only speak as a guardian and as such I have 7 different ways to generate hate at my disposal at level 31: Suppress, Shouting Cry, Taunting Blow, Taunting Challenge, Battle Cry, Call of Command, and the enormous (sarcasm) amount of damage that I do.
Again, as I stated in the original post. It is the tanks job to establish the threshold. It is the responsibility of the scouts and mages to deal as much damage as possible within that threshold.
What I take issue with in terms of DPS classes is those that have no concept of this strategy. We have all seen them. These are the people that unload all they can, all the time, never understanding that it takes more intelligence not to press that button than it does to press it.
I do not submit this as a recipe for lazy tanks. I will concede that there are lazy tanks in which case your DPS is screwed either way. However, if a tank is doing their job, I only ask that DPS classes do the same.
as an assasin, i agree with this thread. at 22 i can steal agro from a lot of tanks if i like, however since i go down almost as fast as an enchanter, i prefer to let the big slobbering, slack eyed, elongated forhead, missing link of a tank take the punishment. Hence the term meat shield. however i have been in groups where i or another scout type robs agro, when it happens, evade is a wonderful thing, along with stalk. however depending on the tank, i can mash away, or i have to wait for about 10 -15 seconds before i can even swing, so as to let the tank build agro. in either case, part of the DPS role is to manage their own agro, was the same in eq1 and it still applies here. part of the tanks role is to keep that agro, even if there is more than one mob. oh many the tank i have seen dont know what shout is, or how to tab to get the mob off the healer. very sad.
Quote:
I must respectfully disagree. It is the tanks responsibility to establish the hate threshold.
Ok we'll agree to differ.
A good tank will set a threshold which is sustainable and the group will be happy with it and the dps will need to work within it.
A poor tank will set a threshold which is either too low and aggro wanders as soon as anyone else looks at the mob, or too high and each fight sees a mob down in no time but too much power expended causing downtime. In these circumstances the rest of the group has to feel they have an input.
You statement would give licence to tanks unable to get it right by themselves to feel affronted if the group suggested a change.
I don't want this coming back to haunt the game as "received truth" when I'm grouped with some dumb ox doing nothing who says "It's my job to set set the Hate"
I do totally agree that a dps class just mashing buttons can out aggro any sensible tank and they have to watch it. I just think groups are a group effort and there are enough prima donnas in the game already without setting stages for any more
One thing to bear in mind is that those classes also have means of improving tank aggro
Wherever I go - there I am.
EvilGnomes says:
Then "people" were idiots. Why would this stuff gradually stop happening? In EQ1 it was still happening when I was playing my level 60 cleric. It was happening right until I quit. I'm sure its still happening. Why would it stop?
It will happen in any grouping fighting game where there is such a thing as aggro and aggro management.
My biggest problem isn't the scouts. Mages are sometimes an issue, but we usually let em tank once and after we rez them they behave (for a while).
Nope, my biggest problem is other tanks. Even if we decide ahead of time who the MT is going to be, there's always one other person constantly snagging aggro. This means more breaks to let the healer(s) regain power and so is detrimental to the group.
Quote:
People were predicting in a few months that this sort of stuff would gradually stop happening. For all of your sakes I hope it does. The real problem is that the idiot making these mistakes probably lack the synaptic power required to come to a site like this, read such a post, connect the dots, and realize it makes a big arrow pointing at them. Sigh.
Then "people" were idiots. Why would this stuff gradually stop happening? In EQ1 it was still happening when I was playing my level 60 cleric. It was happening right until I quit. I'm sure its still happening. Why would it stop?
It will happen in any grouping fighting game where there is such a thing as aggro and aggro management.
My biggest problem isn't the scouts. Mages are sometimes an issue, but we usually let em tank once and after we rez them they behave (for a while).
Nope, my biggest problem is other tanks. Even if we decide ahead of time who the MT is going to be, there's always one other person constantly snagging aggro. This means more breaks to let the healer(s) regain power and so is detrimental to the group.
lol, yep. course occasically i swear some of the monsters jus go an decide hey im gonna go beat on "Insert Name Here" an they go do it. lol how many of you have had a mob jus decide to go an attack someone who isn't even their playin atm cuz of a quick break for them? like im in a duo with say a healer we fightin a lumbering fool lvl 25^^ my healer is afk but no biggie i could solo the mob if i wanted to so here i am whackin away pullin off Ho's an healer still afk an never havin done a single thing durin the battle suddenly has all the hate from the monster on her. lol im sittin there voke'g like mad use HT, rescue an damn thing jus will not turn back around. healer comes back damn near dead an jus in time to save their ***. an all i can do is like beats me wth happened
Quote:
Firstly, scout classes 85% of your DPS comes from behind or flanking the mob. If you do damage outside of the "hate threshold" and the mob turns around to face you, your DPS just took a huge cut because you can not get behind the mob. Evade and stop attacking. Let the tank regain the aggro and reset that threshold, then you can go back to killing.
No, you don't just stop attacking. You use your evade abilities, and you don't do any quick low damaging abilities, and especially abilities that produce hate like gouge.
Keep attacking normally, the tank should beable to take the hate back easily.
If your a swashy, you have an ability that you can give the tank extra hate, it requires concentration, but if you know the tank can't hold hate well it comes in handy.
Edited, Thu Feb 10 14:16:34 2005 by Deeltor
Scholar
46 posts
Quote:
part of the DPS role is to manage their own agro
Here, here!! That is exactly the point I am trying to make. I think that many (not all) people play scouts and mages thinking that their only responsibility is to totally unload on everything. Easy enough, I can do that without too much effort. What seperates the good DPS from the bad DPS is "aggro management". What that means to me is not knowing when to press a button but knowing when not to press a button. Cheers Banter!! If you ever find yourself on Innothule and need a tank, look me up. =)
37 posts
Half agree, half don't.
I've seen plenty of DPS ***** it up. I am a 29 ranger and have at times taken an aggro. Easy to overcome though, cause I just evade and stop fighting. within seconds a good tank will get it back. also, I've recently discovered the trick shot really works well. so ill do that, tank will hit, automatically has more hate than a taunt or scream initially does. so once he hits it. can do a scream and taunt then bam, it's his the whole time no issues.
howevr, ive seen tanks who dont know how to hold aggro or dont realize what they are doing. whatchu really need to do is find a good guild or group u can almost always group with cause then the "potluck" factor is comeplety removed. solved most of my battle problems at least.
u do have a point, but ur not completely right. it's a two way street, and inexperience, is inexperienced, regardless of class.
Power regeneration should not be an issue. People need to be using the best avaliable food. Player made or store bought is fine.
If your level 21, you should be using the lvl 30 food items (iron Ration for example.) If your level 11, you should be using the lvl 20 food items, and so on.
You'd be surpised the difference of having the best avaliable food can make. Once you kill a mob, your power and health will regen in the matter of seconds. When your in battle your power will gradually increase fast and typically you'll never have to slow down on attacks as long as the tank can hold aggroe (coming from a swashy's perspective that is, I know healers especially struggle with power issues, especially in multigroup combat.)
This in-turn will help support aggroe issues too. If the tank has low power he'll be rationing his attacks, and lowering the hate towards him.
I don't know how many people I group with who still use lower level food items because its cheaper. But doing so can slow down the group at times if your in a place where there is a constant stream of mobs to kill (such as CoB.)
Hell, there is the select few who don't even use food.
If your level 21, you should be using the lvl 30 food items (iron Ration for example.) If your level 11, you should be using the lvl 20 food items, and so on.
You'd be surpised the difference of having the best avaliable food can make. Once you kill a mob, your power and health will regen in the matter of seconds. When your in battle your power will gradually increase fast and typically you'll never have to slow down on attacks as long as the tank can hold aggroe (coming from a swashy's perspective that is, I know healers especially struggle with power issues, especially in multigroup combat.)
This in-turn will help support aggroe issues too. If the tank has low power he'll be rationing his attacks, and lowering the hate towards him.
I don't know how many people I group with who still use lower level food items because its cheaper. But doing so can slow down the group at times if your in a place where there is a constant stream of mobs to kill (such as CoB.)
Hell, there is the select few who don't even use food.
ShaughnAsura wrote:
Quote:
part of the DPS role is to manage their own agro
Here, here!! That is exactly the point I am trying to make. I think that many (not all) people play scouts and mages thinking that their only responsibility is to totally unload on everything. Easy enough, I can do that without too much effort. What seperates the good DPS from the bad DPS is "aggro management". What that means to me is not knowing when to press a button but knowing when not to press a button. Cheers Banter!! If you ever find yourself on Innothule and need a tank, look me up. =)
well thank you ShaughnAsura. just know that wasnt my only point, it is a group for a reason, requires group effort, and i have seen some sloppy tanks out there. however i understand what you are saying in this thread and i agree with you 100% Im not sure there is such a thing as a perfect group combo, but im sure you can make any group work. Just know your role.
as for needing a tank, unfortunately i play on toxxula, but should you ever come over there, send me a PM and we will hook up.
I would have to speak from my experience as tanking with my monk, that its fairly difficult for me to regain aggro if someone takes it from me. There have been times when I have shouted 2 times, and taunted (or used my special ability which generates more hate, but shares a recharge timer), and even used taunting slap, up to 4 times, and the mob would die before I could even regain hate. And yes, I do regularly shout/taunt mobs during the fight.
Scholar
33 posts
I would like to append to this thread... This is a good topic so I feel this goes here. Tank classes in general in EQ2 do not even know how to regain aggro after they loose it. It is all about timing.
Taunt is sensitive and has to cast at exactly the right time its like "HEY over here, theres nothing to see there" not "hey get off him, I said get off him, QUIT it already"...
I play a Warden and my job is to heal when I can, I normally give the tank huge space to make sure they have enough damage in before I even think about blast healin. For the most part I will HOT the tank. On rare occasions though when I cannot avoid it, I will pull ranks and be at the top of the hate list. Many many many many many many, times I have been left in a feeding frenzy heres your appetizer ME. The tank does not taunt the mob till I have already had to emergency heal myself. Then I am left there trying not to die, and trying not to run in hopes that the tank could get the mob off me.
If taunt is just like it was in EQLive then I assume just like your threshold that the TANK needs to taunt, before I have to blast heal myself.. That is when the mob turns to come eat me, THAT is the exact point at which the Tank must taunt, shout, assualt or what ever he has to do to get me off the list.
Many tanks do not appear to understand that taunt is only a hate builder when the mob is not on them, and that casting it multiple times on the mob when you are aready engaging it does not increase this hate. But the timing is the issue with many tanks when they do loose aggro. I have waited many times doing nothing just watching the mob hack me down waiting to see that tell tail flaming head, and yet sometimes it never comes. The more I have to heal myself the harder it is for the tank to do anything at that point.
This is a dance people, predators etc hold off on hitting sneak attack and backstab, and NO dot abilities like Bleed until the tank has some % off the mobs HP first, Casters same thing, dont chain cast like the wind, watch the fight and dont overstep everyones HO's (call em out too), and for those of us healers who don't know it, do not blast heal when the tank is down 5% of his health. Wait and use heal over time if you have it sparingly to conserve that needed power, and for the love of god tanks if you loose agro know that you MUST get that taunt in before action is taken agains the mob by its target or the target has to blast heal or defend themselves. :) Cause when push comes to shove, I will run my skinny *** off if I am down to 10% health and the mob has been hitting me for a while, and no one likes that kinda chase :)
---------end rant---------
-E
Taunt is sensitive and has to cast at exactly the right time its like "HEY over here, theres nothing to see there" not "hey get off him, I said get off him, QUIT it already"...
I play a Warden and my job is to heal when I can, I normally give the tank huge space to make sure they have enough damage in before I even think about blast healin. For the most part I will HOT the tank. On rare occasions though when I cannot avoid it, I will pull ranks and be at the top of the hate list. Many many many many many many, times I have been left in a feeding frenzy heres your appetizer ME. The tank does not taunt the mob till I have already had to emergency heal myself. Then I am left there trying not to die, and trying not to run in hopes that the tank could get the mob off me.
If taunt is just like it was in EQLive then I assume just like your threshold that the TANK needs to taunt, before I have to blast heal myself.. That is when the mob turns to come eat me, THAT is the exact point at which the Tank must taunt, shout, assualt or what ever he has to do to get me off the list.
Many tanks do not appear to understand that taunt is only a hate builder when the mob is not on them, and that casting it multiple times on the mob when you are aready engaging it does not increase this hate. But the timing is the issue with many tanks when they do loose aggro. I have waited many times doing nothing just watching the mob hack me down waiting to see that tell tail flaming head, and yet sometimes it never comes. The more I have to heal myself the harder it is for the tank to do anything at that point.
This is a dance people, predators etc hold off on hitting sneak attack and backstab, and NO dot abilities like Bleed until the tank has some % off the mobs HP first, Casters same thing, dont chain cast like the wind, watch the fight and dont overstep everyones HO's (call em out too), and for those of us healers who don't know it, do not blast heal when the tank is down 5% of his health. Wait and use heal over time if you have it sparingly to conserve that needed power, and for the love of god tanks if you loose agro know that you MUST get that taunt in before action is taken agains the mob by its target or the target has to blast heal or defend themselves. :) Cause when push comes to shove, I will run my skinny *** off if I am down to 10% health and the mob has been hitting me for a while, and no one likes that kinda chase :)
---------end rant---------
-E
30 Paladin with a few questions. I don't really have trouble with holding agro but damn at times when you got 5 mobs all in your area I have to hit blinding light/shout just to make sure I have it on all the mobs.
All I ask out of everyone is please assist the mob I am on and I agree with whoever said its the other "tanks" that I have the most trouble with.
Its easier to heal just one person so get the person with the most ac to tank and stay on our target unless they don't feel up to it or aren't used to tanking. Gaurdians of the same level if I got 200 ac on you let it go and if you got 5ac on me I will do the same. Don't start offtanking and throwing aoe's out agroing mobs that are grey because I have 5 mobs on me and assisting is too much for you ego.
I know my limitations very well so if I pull it we can kill it as long as your not a total ******. I burn my power pretty well during a fight but I am working hard. I don't shout like a gorilla and start going ******** I hit the mob I want with a range pull spell, blinding light all the mobs as they get to me, slap a ward on my ***, my ward increases hate as well, and helps take a couple hit, then proceed to access the situation.
The scouts, mages, wizards etc. never pull agro unless they are on the wrong mob I don't care if they nuke till blue fire shoots from the tip of their pee pee. And other tanks if I see red pissed off fire coming from a mobs head and I know it wasn't me taunting then it was you. This isn't eq one gaurdians grow up, yes you can get agro and show everyone how awesome you are but now we can see when you do it.
So if I stop fighting flip someone off, bend over and show them how I feel its because they taunted and weren't tanking or assisted on the wrong mob.
If a warrior type wants to tank not a problem but you have to weigh ac into it and resists not just old stereotypes.
All I ask out of everyone is please assist the mob I am on and I agree with whoever said its the other "tanks" that I have the most trouble with.
Its easier to heal just one person so get the person with the most ac to tank and stay on our target unless they don't feel up to it or aren't used to tanking. Gaurdians of the same level if I got 200 ac on you let it go and if you got 5ac on me I will do the same. Don't start offtanking and throwing aoe's out agroing mobs that are grey because I have 5 mobs on me and assisting is too much for you ego.
I know my limitations very well so if I pull it we can kill it as long as your not a total ******. I burn my power pretty well during a fight but I am working hard. I don't shout like a gorilla and start going ******** I hit the mob I want with a range pull spell, blinding light all the mobs as they get to me, slap a ward on my ***, my ward increases hate as well, and helps take a couple hit, then proceed to access the situation.
The scouts, mages, wizards etc. never pull agro unless they are on the wrong mob I don't care if they nuke till blue fire shoots from the tip of their pee pee. And other tanks if I see red pissed off fire coming from a mobs head and I know it wasn't me taunting then it was you. This isn't eq one gaurdians grow up, yes you can get agro and show everyone how awesome you are but now we can see when you do it.
So if I stop fighting flip someone off, bend over and show them how I feel its because they taunted and weren't tanking or assisted on the wrong mob.
If a warrior type wants to tank not a problem but you have to weigh ac into it and resists not just old stereotypes.
Scholar
46 posts
eclypsethreedemons:
I know exactly what you are saying. If a tank loses aggro to a healer, he/she will be hard pressed to get that aggro back. My advice is not to patch heal yourself. Everytime you heal yourself you are only increasing the amount of hate towards you. HOT yourself. It is scary I know to see a mob looking you in the face when you are wearing those bearskins. Don't lose your head. If you play your cards right, the tank should be able to get the hate back from you. I can not remember ever having trouble with healers but do realize that it can happen.
grumpass:
I agree. I don't care who tanks. But if it's me I do not want to see another fighter class taunting. A lot of times I will carry a sword and shield AND either 2 dual wield weapons or a two-hander. If I am not tanking I am DPS. End of story.
I know exactly what you are saying. If a tank loses aggro to a healer, he/she will be hard pressed to get that aggro back. My advice is not to patch heal yourself. Everytime you heal yourself you are only increasing the amount of hate towards you. HOT yourself. It is scary I know to see a mob looking you in the face when you are wearing those bearskins. Don't lose your head. If you play your cards right, the tank should be able to get the hate back from you. I can not remember ever having trouble with healers but do realize that it can happen.
grumpass:
I agree. I don't care who tanks. But if it's me I do not want to see another fighter class taunting. A lot of times I will carry a sword and shield AND either 2 dual wield weapons or a two-hander. If I am not tanking I am DPS. End of story.
A tank's job is hold aggro, more so than mitigating damage.
Many tanks are able to do this, and I can use all my dps abilities without fear.
However, if I begin to get aggro, I go through a series of strategy changes, slowly lowering my dps to find the threshold that the tank is able to keep up.
So I understand what you mean, but don't forget that your ability to keep hate is the real key to any battle, not a dps's ability to try and not get hate, because the higher the threshold, the exponentially higher the dps.
Many tanks are able to do this, and I can use all my dps abilities without fear.
However, if I begin to get aggro, I go through a series of strategy changes, slowly lowering my dps to find the threshold that the tank is able to keep up.
So I understand what you mean, but don't forget that your ability to keep hate is the real key to any battle, not a dps's ability to try and not get hate, because the higher the threshold, the exponentially higher the dps.
Quote:
A tank's job is hold aggro, more so than mitigating damage.
Many tanks are able to do this, and I can use all my dps abilities without fear.
However, if I begin to get aggro, I go through a series of strategy changes, slowly lowering my dps to find the threshold that the tank is able to keep up.
So I understand what you mean, but don't forget that your ability to keep hate is the real key to any battle, not a dps's ability to try and not get hate, because the higher the threshold, the exponentially higher the dps.
Many tanks are able to do this, and I can use all my dps abilities without fear.
However, if I begin to get aggro, I go through a series of strategy changes, slowly lowering my dps to find the threshold that the tank is able to keep up.
So I understand what you mean, but don't forget that your ability to keep hate is the real key to any battle, not a dps's ability to try and not get hate, because the higher the threshold, the exponentially higher the dps.
Exactly! I have grouped with the good, the bad, and the utterly pathetic. My dps should be around 100 110 on ^^ group mobs, possibly more with the new patch. I have grouped with some tanks that will allow me to get that number up and I have grouped with some bone heads that lose agro if I go above 70 dps. I never nuke before the mob is at 80% and don't cast at all before the tank gets off a good taunt or two.
It's easy to tell what lvl the tanks taunts are at. A guildie of mine has most all adept1 or higher and it shows. Yes agro managment will determine the sucess of the group, but some tanks can get lazy with their taunt upgrades and it shows.
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