I've seen a few people in other places ask about sepia ink. I was looking for it myself last night (I'm an 18 Brawler/11 Scholar). I had made a stack of the scroll paper and the quills, but couldn't find the ink. I looked on the broker and people were selling the ink from 20 gold to 90 silver (no way am I spending that much!) No wonder I couldn't find it in my recipe book. The first part says nothing about sepia ink or dye. I finally tracked down the recipe and figured I'd post it here. I got this info from EQ2 Traders (although it was not that easy to find). I hope this helps someone.
1st step
Isonoid Reagent
Refining raw inorganics to an isonoid reagent
Process: Refinement
Level: 3
Technique: Chemistry
Knowledge: Alchemy
Device: Chemistry Table
Components
-Primary Component: Raw Lead or Malachite(1)
• lead cluster, rough malachite
Build Component 1: Chloro Oil(1)
• chloro oil, crude chloro oil, shaped vial of chloro oil, pristine chloro oil
Fuel Component 1: Candle(1)
Produces:
crude isonoid reagent
shaped isonoid reagent
isonoid reagent
pristine isonoid reagent
2nd step
Sepia Dye
Melding a reagent with wash to make a dye.
Process: Interim
Level: 5
Technique: Chemistry
Knowledge: Alchemy
Device: Chemistry Table
Components
Primary Component: Refined Isonoid(1)
• isonoid reagent, crude isonoid reagent, shaped isonoid reagent, pristine isonoid reagent
Build Component 1: Chloro Wash(1)
• chloro wash, crude chloro wash, shaped chloro wash, pristine chloro wash
Fuel Component 1: Candle(1)
Produces:
crude vial of sepia dye
shaped vial of sepia dye
vial of sepia dye
pristine vial of sepia dye
3rd (and final) step
Sepia Ink
Melding a reagent with wash to make a ink.
Process: Interim
Level: 5
Technique: Chemistry
Knowledge: Alchemy
Device: Chemistry Table
Components
Primary Component: Sepia Dye(1)
• crude vial of sepia dye, shaped vial of sepia dye, vial of sepia dye, pristine vial of sepia dye
Build Component 1: Chloro Wash(1)
• chloro wash, crude chloro wash, shaped chloro wash, pristine chloro wash
Fuel Component 1: Candle(1)
Produces:
crude sepia ink
shaped sepia ink
sepia ink
pristine sepia ink
Edited, Wed Feb 9 13:04:05 2005 by mahoneyj
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- EverQuest II
- General Discussion
- Sepia Ink recipe
Sepia Ink recipeFollow
Sepia Ink sells for THAT much?! It's a basic artisan skill; I made them in the Island of Refuge (then wasted them by botching my Apprentice III skills, lol).
The ink was kind of a bummer at tradeskill level 5ish, but if you're at 11 you should be able to make it much more easily. Good luck.
Oh, to add to your recipe, if you get pristine isonoid reagent, you also get a second substance that has no value. A friend tells me it's used in some glass recipes.
The ink was kind of a bummer at tradeskill level 5ish, but if you're at 11 you should be able to make it much more easily. Good luck.
Oh, to add to your recipe, if you get pristine isonoid reagent, you also get a second substance that has no value. A friend tells me it's used in some glass recipes.
Yeah, I left those additional results off. It did list them though.
32 posts
Here are some more tips, up to tier 3 (and probably 4 and 5) the ink is made by Alchemists and always follows this path:
Reagent -> Dye -> Ink
10 Scholar
Trinoid Reagent -> iron gual dye -> iron gual ink
20 Alchemist
Hexanoid Reagent -> carbon Dye -> carbon Ink
The ink is the main component in the Apprentive IV recipes, meaning you need to get pristines all the way.
Jewelers make Scout path Apprentice IV runes using ink, spike, ornament of that tier.
Alchemists make Fighter path Apprentice IV potions using ink, suspension, and (I think its a wash) of that tier.
Sages make Priest and Mage path Apprentice IV scrolls using ink, quill, and paper of that tier.
Reagent -> Dye -> Ink
10 Scholar
Trinoid Reagent -> iron gual dye -> iron gual ink
20 Alchemist
Hexanoid Reagent -> carbon Dye -> carbon Ink
The ink is the main component in the Apprentive IV recipes, meaning you need to get pristines all the way.
Jewelers make Scout path Apprentice IV runes using ink, spike, ornament of that tier.
Alchemists make Fighter path Apprentice IV potions using ink, suspension, and (I think its a wash) of that tier.
Sages make Priest and Mage path Apprentice IV scrolls using ink, quill, and paper of that tier.
32 posts
Quote:
Oh, to add to your recipe, if you get pristine isonoid reagent, you also get a second substance that has no value. A friend tells me it's used in some glass recipes.
The loam created from the reagents can be used by a jeweler to create poison vials and glass flasks. Both are used by alchemists - one to create poisons for predators/assassins, the other for creating all sorts of usable potions you can equip that do nearly everything - adding damage shields, instant heals, cure toxin, etc
Just wanted to add my 2 cents to this, since I recently started selling inks regularly.
On Mistmoore, Pristine Sepia Ink regularly sells off my vender at 25-35sp per vial. But it never fails, I get tells from people asking me how I can charge so much for something that costs so little to make.
Do people really not get it? Do they not understand that in order to get "Pristine" ink, it takes 3 combines for each vial you want to produce? Because the only way possible to get "Pristine" ink is to either refine your own Isonoid (an additional combine requiring broker-purchased/harvested resources) or buy Isonoid that has already been refined (additional cost).
Example: I spent the last three days making 200 vials of Pristine Sepia Ink. I spent one entire play session refining Isonoid. The next entire play session was spent making Pristine Dye. Finally, on my third play session, I spent the entire session combining the final Pristine Sepia Ink vials.
Am I really supposed to charge nothing more than a small pittance above what it cost to combine those vials? Well, that hardly seems fair, right? My time is MUCH more valuable than the cost of making the vial! Please tell me I'm not the only person here that sees that. 3 DAYS!! That's three entire play sessions that I spent allowing my close friends to outlevel me, while I hibernated in a tradeskill instance combining inks. I don't point this out as a way of saying "poor me, I didn't get to level". I point this out as a way of saying "see, tradeskilling is an alternate way of progressing through the game, and is no less valuable than the time people spend adventuring".
When a sage wants to make a spell, making the ink is, in total, the most time-consuming part of making the spell. By purchasing my ink, that sage is able to get right in and craft the spell, without having to do 3 additional combines.
As we know, making a spell (tier 1) requires 6 combines:
1. Refine Isonoid
2. Make Dye
3. Make Ink
4. Refine Lumber
5. Make Quill
6. Make Spell
(Did I leave one out? I'm pretty sure the quill is only 2 combines, but I could be wrong).
The service I provide by selling the ink is half of the effort that goes into making the spell itself. Not only that, but, as you all know, the ink is the primary (i.e. the most important) ingredient in the spell-crafting process. A tier-1 App IV spell, on Mistmoore, sells for close to 1gp (nearly always above 80sp). Is the act of providing HALF of the effort that goes into making the spell only worth 4sp, when the sage is going to gross 80sp - 1gp for that same spell? If I could produce vials of ink in a *fraction* of the amount of time it takes right now, then yes, they would only be worth that amount. But as it stands right now, it takes me nearly three times as long to do a final combine of the ink as it takes the sage to do the final combine of a spell.
The price that I charge for the ink works for both the sage who is selling his/her spells for a profit, as well as the sage who is more interested in leveling up than making a profit, and amounts to less than half of the gross value of the spell. A bargain, since the ink is, in fact, half of the effort.
To put it in greater perspective: If I cannot make a healthy profit off the ink, then it would be much better for me to just continue and make the spell itself, right? I mean, half the work is already done. And while sub-combine prices are relatively stable, final combine prices are not, and are highly subject to undercutting. Not that undercutting doesn't happen on sub-combines, but they tend to not hurt the long-term vendors much, since the undercutters usually have a very small inventory that they're unwilling to replenish with any regularity. It would be a lot healthier for the economy to have separate markets for all of these subcombines, rather than forcing the sub-combine manufacturers to continue on to a final combine. Why? Because ultimately, under that model, the market will be flooded by final combines. And at that point, it's a race to sell it for the lowest price.
Is ink expensive? Yes it is. Should it be? Well, consider that making the ink is half the work of making the spell, then you answer that question.
Edited, Sun Mar 6 05:16:01 2005 by RussoEQ
Edited, Sun Mar 6 05:17:33 2005 by RussoEQ
On Mistmoore, Pristine Sepia Ink regularly sells off my vender at 25-35sp per vial. But it never fails, I get tells from people asking me how I can charge so much for something that costs so little to make.
Do people really not get it? Do they not understand that in order to get "Pristine" ink, it takes 3 combines for each vial you want to produce? Because the only way possible to get "Pristine" ink is to either refine your own Isonoid (an additional combine requiring broker-purchased/harvested resources) or buy Isonoid that has already been refined (additional cost).
Example: I spent the last three days making 200 vials of Pristine Sepia Ink. I spent one entire play session refining Isonoid. The next entire play session was spent making Pristine Dye. Finally, on my third play session, I spent the entire session combining the final Pristine Sepia Ink vials.
Am I really supposed to charge nothing more than a small pittance above what it cost to combine those vials? Well, that hardly seems fair, right? My time is MUCH more valuable than the cost of making the vial! Please tell me I'm not the only person here that sees that. 3 DAYS!! That's three entire play sessions that I spent allowing my close friends to outlevel me, while I hibernated in a tradeskill instance combining inks. I don't point this out as a way of saying "poor me, I didn't get to level". I point this out as a way of saying "see, tradeskilling is an alternate way of progressing through the game, and is no less valuable than the time people spend adventuring".
When a sage wants to make a spell, making the ink is, in total, the most time-consuming part of making the spell. By purchasing my ink, that sage is able to get right in and craft the spell, without having to do 3 additional combines.
As we know, making a spell (tier 1) requires 6 combines:
1. Refine Isonoid
2. Make Dye
3. Make Ink
4. Refine Lumber
5. Make Quill
6. Make Spell
(Did I leave one out? I'm pretty sure the quill is only 2 combines, but I could be wrong).
The service I provide by selling the ink is half of the effort that goes into making the spell itself. Not only that, but, as you all know, the ink is the primary (i.e. the most important) ingredient in the spell-crafting process. A tier-1 App IV spell, on Mistmoore, sells for close to 1gp (nearly always above 80sp). Is the act of providing HALF of the effort that goes into making the spell only worth 4sp, when the sage is going to gross 80sp - 1gp for that same spell? If I could produce vials of ink in a *fraction* of the amount of time it takes right now, then yes, they would only be worth that amount. But as it stands right now, it takes me nearly three times as long to do a final combine of the ink as it takes the sage to do the final combine of a spell.
The price that I charge for the ink works for both the sage who is selling his/her spells for a profit, as well as the sage who is more interested in leveling up than making a profit, and amounts to less than half of the gross value of the spell. A bargain, since the ink is, in fact, half of the effort.
To put it in greater perspective: If I cannot make a healthy profit off the ink, then it would be much better for me to just continue and make the spell itself, right? I mean, half the work is already done. And while sub-combine prices are relatively stable, final combine prices are not, and are highly subject to undercutting. Not that undercutting doesn't happen on sub-combines, but they tend to not hurt the long-term vendors much, since the undercutters usually have a very small inventory that they're unwilling to replenish with any regularity. It would be a lot healthier for the economy to have separate markets for all of these subcombines, rather than forcing the sub-combine manufacturers to continue on to a final combine. Why? Because ultimately, under that model, the market will be flooded by final combines. And at that point, it's a race to sell it for the lowest price.
Is ink expensive? Yes it is. Should it be? Well, consider that making the ink is half the work of making the spell, then you answer that question.
Edited, Sun Mar 6 05:16:01 2005 by RussoEQ
Edited, Sun Mar 6 05:17:33 2005 by RussoEQ
RussoEQ - thank you for an clear and concise explaination of the process. I don't play an alky or a sage but I do have a healthy respect for anyone who completes 6-8 segment combines and ends with a pristine product.
Whether the product is food/drink, spells, chemical compounds, weapons, armor or furnature, the craftsman deserves to make a profit in exchange for his time.
Cost of materials should never be considered the primary factor in determining what a reasonable profit margin is. Your time and level of skill are much more accurate indicators of the value of the final product than the cost of the parts.
To anyone who believes that "fair" means giving me the price of the components in exchange for the finished product, I say - "keep your pocket change and go make it yourself!"
Whether the product is food/drink, spells, chemical compounds, weapons, armor or furnature, the craftsman deserves to make a profit in exchange for his time.
Cost of materials should never be considered the primary factor in determining what a reasonable profit margin is. Your time and level of skill are much more accurate indicators of the value of the final product than the cost of the parts.
To anyone who believes that "fair" means giving me the price of the components in exchange for the finished product, I say - "keep your pocket change and go make it yourself!"
A couple notes..
Anyone can make Ink now, so when you buy from an alchemist its only to save yourself some time. Any newbie that needs ink, is best off making it themselves so they get the exp from it. :) Ink is one of the most cost effective ways to get exp at an early level within a teir.
For Teir 5 Ink, I used to pay 1 to 1.2 gold per ink. This was assuming it cost me 60ish silver to make. I no longer buy ink because I can make it for 50 copper or so thanks to Sony's bug.
The argument that the ink must be pristine is totaly false. While it is true pristine ink is the best seller, any failures are NOT lost funds or time. Simply turn around and use them for a Guild Writ or Workshop Task. :)When I make ink AFK (watching tv with my back to the computer clicking the mouse) I make about 60% Pristine and 40% Standard Ink. When I am actualy watching the screen its about 90% Pristine. Any pristine gets turned into App4's for sale, the rest goes to tasks/writs. :)
As for the 20 Gold, That is totaly insane. Never assume the broker listed prices are anywhere near what it trades for. Remeber your only seeing the price at which people will not buy for. I often see junk up for 20 gold to 10 plat waiting for suckers to buy it on accident or people to stupid to know its real value.
Anyone can make Ink now, so when you buy from an alchemist its only to save yourself some time. Any newbie that needs ink, is best off making it themselves so they get the exp from it. :) Ink is one of the most cost effective ways to get exp at an early level within a teir.
For Teir 5 Ink, I used to pay 1 to 1.2 gold per ink. This was assuming it cost me 60ish silver to make. I no longer buy ink because I can make it for 50 copper or so thanks to Sony's bug.
The argument that the ink must be pristine is totaly false. While it is true pristine ink is the best seller, any failures are NOT lost funds or time. Simply turn around and use them for a Guild Writ or Workshop Task. :)When I make ink AFK (watching tv with my back to the computer clicking the mouse) I make about 60% Pristine and 40% Standard Ink. When I am actualy watching the screen its about 90% Pristine. Any pristine gets turned into App4's for sale, the rest goes to tasks/writs. :)
As for the 20 Gold, That is totaly insane. Never assume the broker listed prices are anywhere near what it trades for. Remeber your only seeing the price at which people will not buy for. I often see junk up for 20 gold to 10 plat waiting for suckers to buy it on accident or people to stupid to know its real value.
Well, if you're looking to make an Apprentice IV spell, like I mentioned above, then you'd sure better have a Pristine ink. Either that, or prepare for disappointment ;)
Anyway, recent changes mean that now in addition to normally tedious and time-consuming process to make ink, we NOW also have to combine our own Chloro Oil and Chloro Wash also (or buy them from a player). Either way it's going to increase the cost of ink even more, as we now have to cover either 1) the added cost of buying the stuff from players, or 2) the increased amount of time to combine the washes and oils.
Anyway, recent changes mean that now in addition to normally tedious and time-consuming process to make ink, we NOW also have to combine our own Chloro Oil and Chloro Wash also (or buy them from a player). Either way it's going to increase the cost of ink even more, as we now have to cover either 1) the added cost of buying the stuff from players, or 2) the increased amount of time to combine the washes and oils.
Sorry Russo, the cost of ink has come DOWN. T5 Ink on Unrest has dropped 30% or so. T4 Inks and T3 have been halved. T2 and T1 inks have always been dirt cheap since anyone that could use them could make them.
Simple fact, if the price of buying ink is anything high then a fair markup the player can make their own. Alchemists can no longer charge 15 silver for tempers thta cost themp 1 silver to make. When they try, most players will simply make their own and accept the cost savings and take the exp. :)
Ink has become no more time consuming or tedious to make, its exactly the same as it was before. In fact, its become a lot more common since anyone can make inks at the higher teirs.
Simple fact, if the price of buying ink is anything high then a fair markup the player can make their own. Alchemists can no longer charge 15 silver for tempers thta cost themp 1 silver to make. When they try, most players will simply make their own and accept the cost savings and take the exp. :)
Ink has become no more time consuming or tedious to make, its exactly the same as it was before. In fact, its become a lot more common since anyone can make inks at the higher teirs.
I don't know what game you're playing, Corison, but it's obviously a different one than I am. The amount of time it now takes me to create ink has significantly increased due to the fact that I'm forced to either make my own oils/washes or purchase them from a player.
I'd be interested in seeing a concise breakdown of just where it now costs me less.
But that aside, you're still not getting it. It's the TIME that is the most valuable commodity in the pricing equation. Not sure how much you know about real-world manufacturing, but if you ask anyone who knows anything about the subject, they will tell you that the single largest cost in their operation is LABOR....not materials. My LABOR just increased.
As I said above, I NOW have to create my OWN oils/washes in order to complete the process. In order to do that, I now have *3* variable costs to account for in my pricing scheme, whereas I *used to* only have 1 variable cost. I'm speaking, of course, of the raw materials involved.
Now, if I don't purchase the raw materials from another player (a process which obviously involves variable cost), then I am forced to harvest those additional raw materials. THAT increases LABOR by now increasing the time it takes me to produce a single vial of ink by an order of magnitude.
- Fact: It now costs me more to make ink than it used to. (Sorry, you're wrong. I keep painstakingly detailed logs of what EVERYTHING costs me, so that I know how to price my wares at a profit.)
- Fact: It now takes me more time to make ink than it used to. (Remember my statement about "time" being the most valuable commodity in any manufacturing business? You do the math.)
- Fact: Over the last couple of days I've increased the price of my ink accordingly.
- Fact: I now sell out my inventory of ink significantly faster than I used to. (I sold 8 full stacks of ink 2 nights ago. Gross sales: 48gp. It took me SIXTEEN HOURS to create those 8 stacks. 2 weeks ago it took *NINE* hours, and would take several days for me to sell out.)
And I KNOW why that last fact is true: because *other players* have recently discovered how freaking tedious it is to make the stuff, and they don't want to be bothered with it. And I sure as heck don't blame them.
A week ago, ink creation was the single most time-consuming portion of creating a spell. The time it now takes to create ink is significantly longer than a week ago. So, by inference, has the time it takes to create a spell increased or decreased?
Well, the answer to that depends on whether or not you're creating your own ink, now doesn't it? Bottom line: Want to save A GODAWFUL LOT of time, then purchase your ink from a craftsman who makes it. If you're not interested in saving time, then I'm not the vendor you want to buy from. There is a market for everything, and more than half the battle in business is knowing your target audience.
My "audience"? Simple. It's people who are in a hurry to craft spells, either just to have them, or to level up a tradeskiller, and they realize that they can save 62% of the amount of time it takes to create a spell by simply purchasing the pre-crafted ink (5/8 of the combines involved in making a spell are now related to making the ink alone. That is 62% of the total amount of time dedicated to making a spell).
I don't just "make stuff and throw it up on my vendor" in a business version of throwing darts at a wall and seeing what sticks. Everything I craft has a purpose and a target market, and I don't make *anything* without researching my market first ;)
Last week, making a spell took 6 combines. 3 of the 6 were related to making ink. Now making a spell takes 8 combines, and 5 of them are related to making the ink. But you claim it's now quicker/cheaper to make the ink, therefore it should be priced lower? /boggle
When you can post a market breakdown with even a fraction of the research I've done on it, I promise you I'll at least read it. :)
I'd be interested in seeing a concise breakdown of just where it now costs me less.
But that aside, you're still not getting it. It's the TIME that is the most valuable commodity in the pricing equation. Not sure how much you know about real-world manufacturing, but if you ask anyone who knows anything about the subject, they will tell you that the single largest cost in their operation is LABOR....not materials. My LABOR just increased.
As I said above, I NOW have to create my OWN oils/washes in order to complete the process. In order to do that, I now have *3* variable costs to account for in my pricing scheme, whereas I *used to* only have 1 variable cost. I'm speaking, of course, of the raw materials involved.
Now, if I don't purchase the raw materials from another player (a process which obviously involves variable cost), then I am forced to harvest those additional raw materials. THAT increases LABOR by now increasing the time it takes me to produce a single vial of ink by an order of magnitude.
- Fact: It now costs me more to make ink than it used to. (Sorry, you're wrong. I keep painstakingly detailed logs of what EVERYTHING costs me, so that I know how to price my wares at a profit.)
- Fact: It now takes me more time to make ink than it used to. (Remember my statement about "time" being the most valuable commodity in any manufacturing business? You do the math.)
- Fact: Over the last couple of days I've increased the price of my ink accordingly.
- Fact: I now sell out my inventory of ink significantly faster than I used to. (I sold 8 full stacks of ink 2 nights ago. Gross sales: 48gp. It took me SIXTEEN HOURS to create those 8 stacks. 2 weeks ago it took *NINE* hours, and would take several days for me to sell out.)
And I KNOW why that last fact is true: because *other players* have recently discovered how freaking tedious it is to make the stuff, and they don't want to be bothered with it. And I sure as heck don't blame them.
A week ago, ink creation was the single most time-consuming portion of creating a spell. The time it now takes to create ink is significantly longer than a week ago. So, by inference, has the time it takes to create a spell increased or decreased?
Well, the answer to that depends on whether or not you're creating your own ink, now doesn't it? Bottom line: Want to save A GODAWFUL LOT of time, then purchase your ink from a craftsman who makes it. If you're not interested in saving time, then I'm not the vendor you want to buy from. There is a market for everything, and more than half the battle in business is knowing your target audience.
My "audience"? Simple. It's people who are in a hurry to craft spells, either just to have them, or to level up a tradeskiller, and they realize that they can save 62% of the amount of time it takes to create a spell by simply purchasing the pre-crafted ink (5/8 of the combines involved in making a spell are now related to making the ink alone. That is 62% of the total amount of time dedicated to making a spell).
I don't just "make stuff and throw it up on my vendor" in a business version of throwing darts at a wall and seeing what sticks. Everything I craft has a purpose and a target market, and I don't make *anything* without researching my market first ;)
Last week, making a spell took 6 combines. 3 of the 6 were related to making ink. Now making a spell takes 8 combines, and 5 of them are related to making the ink. But you claim it's now quicker/cheaper to make the ink, therefore it should be priced lower? /boggle
When you can post a market breakdown with even a fraction of the research I've done on it, I promise you I'll at least read it. :)
[clip] Note that as a Jeweler I look at the cost to BUY inks, not make them.
Let’s see... You have always needed to buy or make WORTS... No change. The recipe still has the same requirements so no change. Oh yea, fuel costs have gone up for non teir-1 items but raw prices have come down so costs have gone up a trivial amount there. So cost to make may have gone up trivially but cost to buy has come down. T1 and T2 items where tweaked with the last patch slightly when WORTS were removed from the vendor but as anyone can make them not a real problem there.
Unrest:
T5 Inks
Old: 1.5 Gold Current: 1.1 Gold Price Change? 73% of old
Alchemist Cost to Make: 3892 Copper Profit: 280% ish
Non-Alchemist Cost: 5736 Copper
T4 Inks
Old: 80 Silver Current: 45 Silver Price Change? 56% of old
Note
The Cost to BUY for the majority of the active player base has come DOWN to a fraction of the old cost. While production cost have gone up slightly the sale price has dropped because of an effective change to an unlimited supply. The only exception is for Alchemist who could already make ink without a markup, their out of pocket expense has gone up slightly.
Exception:
Tier 1 and 2 Ink has always been an exception to general ink reviews. Anyone that needs this tier of ink has always been able to make it. So the market here has always been a bit higher because only people with extra funds looking to rush production every buy low tier inks. Also the extra cost is trivial for a real Alt who has 2-3 pp to spend, but totally out of the ballpark for new players.
So I guess your right, if you want to look at T1 inks they have gone from what 122 copper to.. oh wait 122 copper. Now mind you most of the cost is tied into raw components so smart shopping could cut that in half. Removing the low level alchemy WORTS was annoying, but 7 copper usually is not a problem. 
BTW:
Scout Runes take Spikes & Ornaments
Sage Spells take Quill & Paper
While those each take two combines + worts they can be crude.
As for your price estimate, 1 Gold is insane for a Tier 1 Apprentice spell. You can get Adepts for 40 silver most nights if you shop around at that tier.
Edited, Sat Mar 12 01:15:50 2005 by Corison
Let’s see... You have always needed to buy or make WORTS... No change. The recipe still has the same requirements so no change. Oh yea, fuel costs have gone up for non teir-1 items but raw prices have come down so costs have gone up a trivial amount there. So cost to make may have gone up trivially but cost to buy has come down. T1 and T2 items where tweaked with the last patch slightly when WORTS were removed from the vendor but as anyone can make them not a real problem there.
Unrest:
T5 Inks
Old: 1.5 Gold Current: 1.1 Gold Price Change? 73% of old
Alchemist Cost to Make: 3892 Copper Profit: 280% ish
Non-Alchemist Cost: 5736 Copper
T4 Inks
Old: 80 Silver Current: 45 Silver Price Change? 56% of old
Note
The Cost to BUY for the majority of the active player base has come DOWN to a fraction of the old cost. While production cost have gone up slightly the sale price has dropped because of an effective change to an unlimited supply. The only exception is for Alchemist who could already make ink without a markup, their out of pocket expense has gone up slightly.
Exception:
Tier 1 and 2 Ink has always been an exception to general ink reviews. Anyone that needs this tier of ink has always been able to make it. So the market here has always been a bit higher because only people with extra funds looking to rush production every buy low tier inks. Also the extra cost is trivial for a real Alt who has 2-3 pp to spend, but totally out of the ballpark for new players.
So I guess your right, if you want to look at T1 inks they have gone from what 122 copper to.. oh wait 122 copper. Now mind you most of the cost is tied into raw components so smart shopping could cut that in half. Removing the low level alchemy WORTS was annoying, but 7 copper usually is not a problem. 
BTW:
Scout Runes take Spikes & Ornaments
Sage Spells take Quill & Paper
While those each take two combines + worts they can be crude.
As for your price estimate, 1 Gold is insane for a Tier 1 Apprentice spell. You can get Adepts for 40 silver most nights if you shop around at that tier.
Edited, Sat Mar 12 01:15:50 2005 by Corison
Corison wrote:
Note that as a Jeweler I look at the cost to BUY inks, not make them.
Then why are you arguing with me? Hasn't it been obvious from the beginning that I'm talking about the costs associated with *making* the inks?
Corison wrote:
Exception:
Tier 1 and 2 Ink has always been an exception to general ink reviews. Anyone that needs this tier of ink has always been able to make it. So the market here has always been a bit higher because only people with extra funds looking to rush production every buy low tier inks. Also the extra cost is trivial for a real Alt who has 2-3 pp to spend, but totally out of the ballpark for new players.
Now take a look at what I posted directly above you...
"RussoEQ" wrote:
My "audience"? Simple. It's people who are in a hurry to craft spells, either just to have them, or to level up a tradeskiller, and they realize that they can save 62% of the amount of time it takes to create a spell by simply purchasing the pre-crafted ink (5/8 of the combines involved in making a spell are now related to making the ink alone. That is 62% of the total amount of time dedicated to making a spell).
Corison wrote:
So I guess your right, if you want to look at T1 inks they have gone from what 122 copper to.. oh wait 122 copper. Now mind you most of the cost is tied into raw components so smart shopping could cut that in half. Removing the low level alchemy WORTS was annoying, but 7 copper usually is not a problem. 
That price you quoted isn't in the ballpark on Mistmoore. The old cost of components only, for Tier 1 ink, was 48 copper per vial of ink (averaging the cost of Rough Malachite/Lead Cluster). The *new* cost of Tier 1 ink is 82 copper (averaging the cost of Malachite/Lead, Tuber/Roots, etc.)
(Prices specific to Mistmoore server only)
Old breakdown:
- Candles required for 1 final vial of ink (3 @ 6cp/unit = 18cp)
- Shaped Chloro Wash from merchant (1 @ 7cp/unit = 7cp)
- Shaped Chloro Oil from merchant (1 @ 7cp/unit = 7cp)
- Rough Malachite/Lead Cluster (1 @ average of 16cp/unit = 16cp)
Total = 48cp over the course of 3 combines.
Time per combine: Average 45 seconds.
Total time for 1 vial of ink: (3 @ 45secs = 135 seconds)
New breakdown:
- Candles required for 1 final vial of ink (5 @ 6cp/unit = 30cp)
- Raw Tuber for wash from player (1 @ average of 12cp/unit = 12cp)
- Raw Roots for oil from player (1 @ average of 12cp/unit = 12cp)
- Rough Malachite/Lead Cluster (1 @ average of 16cp/unit = 16cp)
- Aerated Mineral water (2 @ 6cp/unit = 12cp)
Total = 82cp over the course of 5 combines.
Time per combine: Average 45 seconds.
Total time for 1 vial of ink: (5 @ 45secs = 225 seconds)
Difference in time: 225 seconds represents a 66% increase in time over 135 seconds. Pretty close to the figure I quoted in an earlier post. Again, these are averages. Some combines are faster than others, and some are much longer. [Edit: You can see that I used the same figure for average combine time on both examples, so the actual time to combine is irrelevant. The % increase in labor remains the same as long as the proportion doesn't change, which in this case it doesn't.]
So, not only has the cost nearly doubled, but the workload has increased by 66%. That doesn't translate into lower prices to the consumer in ANY business that I'm currently aware of.
Now, I can sometimes (I repeat...SOMETIMES) find the raw materials on sale for much less than the average. But *many* times I find them on sale for far greater than the average I listed (I don't work with average costs in my spreadsheet. I calculate *precisely* what each vial costs me to make on the day I make it.) The prices I listed above were for my last "batch", and represent a decent cross-section of prices. Could I have waited for better prices on the raw materials? Sure could have. But then my "shop" would be closed that day, wouldn't it?
Once again, you're missing what I believe is the primary point. The *time it takes to make ink* just increased substantially. The cost of materials is MINISCULE next to the cost of labor. I don't know how else to emphasize that, nor how many times I have to repeat it. So here's a full-page ad version: IT'S NOT THE COST OF MATERIALS THAT PRIMARILY DETERMINEs THE COST OF A PRODUCT.
Corison wrote:
As for your price estimate, 1 Gold is insane for a Tier 1 Apprentice spell. You can get Adepts for 40 silver most nights if you shop around at that tier.
Not on Mistmoore. Only the *most common* of Adepts are on sale for less than 1g. App IV spells (Tier 1 and 2) sell for between 75sp and 1.25gp.
The numbers just don't bear you out, Corison. I'm sorry. And neither do my sales records, thank God. Because if your numbers were anywhere CLOSE to the truth, I'd give up tradeskilling so fast it would make Sony's head spin ;)
Edited, Sat Mar 12 06:05:09 2005 by RussoEQ
Yea I tried making this on isle of refuge and it just wasn't worth it. If your under lvl 10 artisan its really hard to get any kind of quality out of this stuff with all the combines you gotta do.
I couldn't even get the lowest quality spells as a lvl 6 artisan lol.
I couldn't even get the lowest quality spells as a lvl 6 artisan lol.
Hi
One of the interesting things about this system, is the ranges in prices between servers. I can get most raw's on unrest for 1-5 copper most days up to teir 3. Teir 4 raws and teir 5 are often going for 1 silver, but I usualy buy t5 during the week for 10 copper. Of course if your in a rush and have a bad day those might run you 10-20 silver. ;)
I suspect our main discrepency here is price variances between servers. I dont consider the increased time for WORTS a factor because you can still buy them if you want. When I am crafting low teir Runes I require the the purchasers to provide the side componets. If you want to make only the ink, simply talk some other low level crafter into making them for you. :)
I suspect our main discrepency here is price variances between servers. I dont consider the increased time for WORTS a factor because you can still buy them if you want. When I am crafting low teir Runes I require the the purchasers to provide the side componets. If you want to make only the ink, simply talk some other low level crafter into making them for you. :)
At low levels, your not going to be able to crank out to much. I generaly suggest blowing through 1-9 as fast as you can. Simply make 1 of everything you can for the discovery. Once you hit 10 and accept your class, the new buffs make crafting much easier and you can go back and make app's if you need to. Of course you can also grind out WORTS that you will ned later anyways. Simple and quality isnt realy a worry there.
Im gonna have to agree with corison here , 1g for a T1 app is friggin insane , i dont give a crap how long it takes you to make it .
Same thing as the ******* last night who were selling friggin jum jum on the broker for 2s 38c a peice (and of course they were the only ones selling it ). The reason its annoying is because now i have to go and harvest in newbie zones that are always overpopulated with harvesters.
People are still being greedy in game , people like to use the "cost of labor" as a way to justify price gouging . I think its killing the market personally .Ive gotten so fed up with it that i just created my own scholar (goin for sage) so i dont have to deal with getting gouged from greedy players. Now if everyone was to do that , then everyone would be making their own spells , and that equals death to sages that are trying to actually provide a product to the public.
IRL i have incorporated the same concept , i added up the cost it takes me to supply myself with a month of beer, it was astounding (not gonna post it because i think its abit too personal ) but if i buy the ingredients and make the beer myself i cut the cost for a month down to 1/3 of what i was paying before . And not only does it taste better but its darn fun to make . Makes for a nice weekend project to break from EQ. :)
anyways , this is just my opinion and it stinks just as bad as anyone elses hehe :)
Same thing as the ******* last night who were selling friggin jum jum on the broker for 2s 38c a peice (and of course they were the only ones selling it ). The reason its annoying is because now i have to go and harvest in newbie zones that are always overpopulated with harvesters.
People are still being greedy in game , people like to use the "cost of labor" as a way to justify price gouging . I think its killing the market personally .Ive gotten so fed up with it that i just created my own scholar (goin for sage) so i dont have to deal with getting gouged from greedy players. Now if everyone was to do that , then everyone would be making their own spells , and that equals death to sages that are trying to actually provide a product to the public.
IRL i have incorporated the same concept , i added up the cost it takes me to supply myself with a month of beer, it was astounding (not gonna post it because i think its abit too personal ) but if i buy the ingredients and make the beer myself i cut the cost for a month down to 1/3 of what i was paying before . And not only does it taste better but its darn fun to make . Makes for a nice weekend project to break from EQ. :)
anyways , this is just my opinion and it stinks just as bad as anyone elses hehe :)
There's a universal truth in business: An item is worth precisely what someone will pay for it. That truism is reiterated daily in auction houses throughout the world.
Geocide, it's clear you don't play on Mistmoore, that's all I can say. When you are on a server like Mistmoore, with an advanced economy and a buttload of rich players, prices are going to be inflated.
Your model is off, by the way. If everyone were to create their own "manufacturer" so that they can avoid what you call "price gouging", then there would be a shortage of available harvesting nodes, as everyone would have their manufacturers (or alts) out harvesting instead of buying raw materials from other players. Guess who has the advantage in THAT model? If you guessed "the people selling raw materials", then you guessed correctly, because eventually people are going to grow so frustrated with not being able to find what they need in the world, that they will begin shopping for raw materials on the broker. Your model hasn't lowered the cost of anything, it's just shifted it to a different material.
You think you're paying a lot for stuff now? Let the harvesters gain control of the market and see what happens then ;)
If, tomorrow, we woke up in a world where it cost McDonald's twice as much to make a Big Mac, and took 1.5 times as long to do it, how do you think that would be reflected in the price of the Big Mac at the cash register? An increase in the price of that Big Mac wouldn't fit ANY definition of "price gouging" that I'm familiar with.
Geocide, it's clear you don't play on Mistmoore, that's all I can say. When you are on a server like Mistmoore, with an advanced economy and a buttload of rich players, prices are going to be inflated.
Your model is off, by the way. If everyone were to create their own "manufacturer" so that they can avoid what you call "price gouging", then there would be a shortage of available harvesting nodes, as everyone would have their manufacturers (or alts) out harvesting instead of buying raw materials from other players. Guess who has the advantage in THAT model? If you guessed "the people selling raw materials", then you guessed correctly, because eventually people are going to grow so frustrated with not being able to find what they need in the world, that they will begin shopping for raw materials on the broker. Your model hasn't lowered the cost of anything, it's just shifted it to a different material.
You think you're paying a lot for stuff now? Let the harvesters gain control of the market and see what happens then ;)
If, tomorrow, we woke up in a world where it cost McDonald's twice as much to make a Big Mac, and took 1.5 times as long to do it, how do you think that would be reflected in the price of the Big Mac at the cash register? An increase in the price of that Big Mac wouldn't fit ANY definition of "price gouging" that I'm familiar with.
16 posts
Excellent thread, I love all the numbers :) Thanks guys..
Quote:
You think you're paying a lot for stuff now? Let the harvesters gain control of the market and see what happens then ;)
Ohh, definitely. Lately on Nektulos, the price of tuber has gone up quite a bit. It used to be 12c for a tuber strand. Now it seems to average at least 60c. I check back about 3 times during a gaming session and sometimes find someone selling at the old price.
Anyhow, I make a lot of Stroma Wash, which needs tuber. I'm not going to buy tuber at 60c-90c and still be able to make the profit I want on the Wash. So I harvest or hoard the ones I buy at 12c. Then I sell my Stroma Wash for about 2s (great thing about Wash is when you make pristine, you get 4 of 'em!). And people buy the wash like hotcakes, amazingly, even though it costs me about 40c to make 8s worth of 'em. I can only assume this is because people don't want to harvest and don't want to pay the 60c-90c for tuber to make their own. So in this case, the harvesters HAVE taken control of the market and have increased my sales of Wash quite a bit because no one has the patience to make their own as much as before when tuber was cheaper.
hehe, the whole economy just really fascinates me!! :)
-Kattoni
21 Pally
17 Outfitter
Nektulos
nope as it says in my sig , i play on najena , and 20g for a friggin silver is price gouging , i dont care what server you are on .
That and I am constantly seeing people selling app4 T1 spells for outrageous prices. My model is just fine , if you make the items yourself its cheaper . Simple as that . I dont buy materials because i harvest whatever i can . And a shortage of nodes?? when i go harvesting in t2 and t3 zones i hardly even run into any competition for nodes , if i do i just relocate and harvest somewhere else.
maybe you should play on najena lol .
That and I am constantly seeing people selling app4 T1 spells for outrageous prices. My model is just fine , if you make the items yourself its cheaper . Simple as that . I dont buy materials because i harvest whatever i can . And a shortage of nodes?? when i go harvesting in t2 and t3 zones i hardly even run into any competition for nodes , if i do i just relocate and harvest somewhere else.
maybe you should play on najena lol .
Geocide wrote:
maybe you should play on najena lol .
Why would I do that when I'm making so much money on Mistmoore :)
I'm on Mistmoore, been working on sepia ink myself here lately for personal use... let me say it IS very time consuming, especially if you are trying to get a pristine result.
Guess I know what to do with my pristine result... sell!
Guess I know what to do with my pristine result... sell!
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