Kensi , chanters can mezz higher then yellow cons . When we did the Zek and EL boat rides at level 25 the named was red^^ group x 2 to me , I held that bad boy locked down , np until my group was ready for him on both boats . We lock the named and kill the adds as they drop so fast , then make a mess out of the named :)
My mezz spell has a level cap and wont mezz over that cap , right now I have one mezz that caps around level 35 or 36 , it is a yellow con spell to me( level 20 trait mezz) . I also have an orange con mezz ( entrance) that I have yet to be told " My target is too powerfull for this spell" . In EL and Zek a few of my spells are getting the " too powerfull for your target" message , So I am glad I have upgrades comming soon , but they are my dots , stifles and stuns , not my mezzes.
EvilGnomes, I didnt comment on what wizzys should do as I have no idea how to play an EQ2 wizzard :). In EQ1 I had a wizzy and she was fun, but to try and make a comment about how eq2 wizzards play their class didnt make sense to me as I have no information to go on . I dont like to tell others what to do , I dont mind making a suggestion if I know what I am talking about .
My point to the wizzards of EQ2 was , love your chanters , they love you . Work together to make the group a strong team so you can destroy everything that comes into your path . If its an AOE party you want , talk to the group and make it so , if you want a nice single mob to beat on and want the extras locked down , let the chanter know . Basically as a group decide on what tatic you want to use and do it . I have played in some fun AOe groups , and have also saved the day a time or two with my mezzing . Its a group of folks playing together , make sure they are working together , if they are working together then there wont be any mezz/aoe issues.
Things can be done in many different ways depending on what you and your group prefer. I know it took me a bit to get used to the idea that I may be in a group that didnt want me to mezz . At first I got mad , I am a chanter , let me mezz damn it ! Then I realised that I was being foolish , I wasnt learning as much about my class as I could , my only role isnt just to put stuff to sleep. My thought was I am a chanter , I am in your group , let me mezz it ! Now my guildies have shown me a whole other way to play my class, I can be usefull even when you dont want me to mezz everything . Changing tatics in a second can save a group , being willing to try something different and learn from it can make the game soo much more fun .
I have done the EL/Zek boats rides many times as my guild likes to have me there to do them ( I am the only chanter in my guild). I have done it 2 different ways , one was to AOE to the boss and then start my mezzing by holding the named , this went very well and we won very quickly . I also have done the boat where they want me to mezz as much as I can the whole time . Both ways worked , both ways were fun , its all up to what you want to do , as long as everyone is on the same page it works.
Ok some advice from a chanter , not about how to play a wizzy but about how to play with a chanty .
When you join a group with a chanter ask " are we mezzing or AOE" . Now if they choose to go with mezz then be a good player and leave any mob the MT is not tanking the hell alone, please ! , this means no dots /shakes her head , no nukes , no nothing ( well you can slow but with such short slow times seems silly)
If that mezzed mob wakes up and starts hitting me please leave it alone unless I ask for help . I have many tricks in my little bag to get it off me but while you try to tank it off me you are more then likely breaking my mezz , As I will get it remezzed and normally do so right as you hit it. I ask my secondary healer to watch my life not my tanks. If as a tank you must babysit me then please only use a taunt on my mob, no attacking .
If a mob hits you and it is not the MT`s target , please dont try to kill it alone , I know you are a super nuker but unless you can drop that bad boy in one hit or two all you are going to do is draw mana from the healers . I will remezz it as long as you allow me to .
If a whole other encounter of mobs add, please dont hit any of them , stay with the Mt on his target , I can mezz a whole encounter as long as not one of the mobs is getting hit.
NEVER dot a mob until the MT has choosen a target and started hitting it ( you can see the life bar move slightly)as he may change targets once a pulled pack of mobs gets to the group.
I will happily work with any nuker to see what spells are good to use with mezz and what are not, normally when a mistake is made I say nothing , just correct the situtation . It is no fun playing in a group where you feel like you are not able to play your class , we can all play our classes and have fun , we just have to learn how to work together as a team . Taking the best things from each class and using them to make your group unstoppable , changing tatics depending on the situtation, learning about your class and others is what makes us strong gamers. The folks who say " i know it all dont try and tell me " they are missing out in a big way and I hope they enjoy playing a cookie cutter game as I know I dont .
sorry for the long post , I just love my class and also love playing with nukers :)
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- Enchanter Tactics in Grouping... What One Wizard has to say!
Enchanter Tactics in Grouping... What One Wizard has to say!Follow
Well I could re arrange what Lady Fairystears just said but I don't think I could improve on it any. :)
I know AoE DoTs that get cast BEFORE the mob is mezzed will break mezz. I do not think a AoE DoT cast after a mob is mezzed will land on the mezzed ones but it sure makes the ones still awake a HECK of a lot harder to lock down.
The following has nothign to do with the above conversation. except to show how long it takes if any one wonders why the heck these mobs are still beating on them.
Keep in mind that mezz has a 8 sec recast and a 2 sec cast time. Meaning that it takes about 2 sec to lock down the 1st mob but 10 MORE sec (12 total)to lock down the 2nd one. To get 3 mezzed it takes 22 Sec. A 4th takes 32sec and since mezz lasts for 40 sec that 1st one will be waking up before mezz can refresh. This is all assuming your chanter is ON THE BALL with targeting, which we all know, is tricky in this game.
IF your chanter took the mezz traning trait then they can lock down 1 in 2 sec then lock down the next then at the 4 sec mark. The 3rd can be mezzed at the 12 sec mark and the 4th at the 14 sec mark. MUCH easier to get adds under control with a 2nd mezz.
(we wont get into the problem with mezzs stacking here LOL)
I know AoE DoTs that get cast BEFORE the mob is mezzed will break mezz. I do not think a AoE DoT cast after a mob is mezzed will land on the mezzed ones but it sure makes the ones still awake a HECK of a lot harder to lock down.
The following has nothign to do with the above conversation. except to show how long it takes if any one wonders why the heck these mobs are still beating on them.
Keep in mind that mezz has a 8 sec recast and a 2 sec cast time. Meaning that it takes about 2 sec to lock down the 1st mob but 10 MORE sec (12 total)to lock down the 2nd one. To get 3 mezzed it takes 22 Sec. A 4th takes 32sec and since mezz lasts for 40 sec that 1st one will be waking up before mezz can refresh. This is all assuming your chanter is ON THE BALL with targeting, which we all know, is tricky in this game.
IF your chanter took the mezz traning trait then they can lock down 1 in 2 sec then lock down the next then at the 4 sec mark. The 3rd can be mezzed at the 12 sec mark and the 4th at the 14 sec mark. MUCH easier to get adds under control with a 2nd mezz.
(we wont get into the problem with mezzs stacking here LOL)
Scholar
44 posts
So much wrong information. Enchanters are NOT the class most of you think they are. They are NOT the same class they were in EQLive. Anyone who thinks an enchanters role in a group is to lock down every single mob in an encounter, is not playing their class the way it was intended. Mobs in EQ2 are linked in encounters. If they are linked, they are intended to be fought together. Not locked down and "singled". That is why there are so many AE spells given to the mage classes. Enchanter mezzes are intended for true adds as someone said earlier. In the middle of an encounter and another Group ^^ mob walks by and starts wailing on your group? Have the enchanter mezz it for later. That is what they are meant to do.
Enchanters as a class are first and foremost a MAGE. All the mages are DPS classes meant to do damage, crowd control, and increase the power pool for their party. The only differences in the classes/sub-classes is the degree to which, and the methods used to accomplish these goals. The sorceror classes focus on raw damage, summoners focus on over-time damage, and some buffs. Enchanters focus on crowd control and buffs. The main thing however, is that they are still mages and deal out damage.
Another thing, AE spells/abilities with Green backgrounds DO NOT affect mezzed mobs, or mobs outside of the targetted encounter. The main problem people have with AEs are melee classes who have abilities which are true AE attacks which hit everything around them, even mobs outside of the targetted encounter.
The wizard may have had an attitude, but they were not the one who was mistaken about how to play their class. Maybe do some research on your own before blasting on others.
Enchanters as a class are first and foremost a MAGE. All the mages are DPS classes meant to do damage, crowd control, and increase the power pool for their party. The only differences in the classes/sub-classes is the degree to which, and the methods used to accomplish these goals. The sorceror classes focus on raw damage, summoners focus on over-time damage, and some buffs. Enchanters focus on crowd control and buffs. The main thing however, is that they are still mages and deal out damage.
Another thing, AE spells/abilities with Green backgrounds DO NOT affect mezzed mobs, or mobs outside of the targetted encounter. The main problem people have with AEs are melee classes who have abilities which are true AE attacks which hit everything around them, even mobs outside of the targetted encounter.
The wizard may have had an attitude, but they were not the one who was mistaken about how to play their class. Maybe do some research on your own before blasting on others.
Scholar
40 posts
Cueadar you are dead wrong.
Think about it a second. Your group is fighting 4 linked mobs and none are mezzed. For the sake of this discussion the mobs do 10 DPS each. With none of the mobs mezzed they are hitting the tank for 40 DPS. With 3 mobs mezzed they are hitting him for 10 DPS. That means unmezzed the mobs are doing 300% more damage and the healer is expending up to 300% more mana.
Also its harder for tanks to hold agro on mobs they are not fighting. So the unmezzed mobs not being hit have a greater chance of agroing the mage/scout/healer.
I understand that in some situations AOE tactics will take mobs down faster and increase the rate of exp. This is counterbalanced by the fact that such groups are more liekly to die and accrue debt. I believe its a fairly balanced trade off though I find people really like having a chanter type in their group.
As coercer I keep all mobs mezzed except the one the tank is hitting and I've had alot of success. That is not to say that is all I do, just my first priority. Once I've got all mobs locked down or while locking down I hit the active mobs with stuns, dots and silences. I am regularly told in merely average groups that this the best group the person has had in days/weeks/ever. When I go LFG I'm instantly snatched up by groups 3-4 lvls above me. This clearly indicates that there is VERY HIGH demand for chanters and that my style of playing a chanter increases a groups effectiveness substantially.
While you may not agree with chanter tactics every person I group with, with obvious exception of Dragonflymoon, does so frankly I am right. My experience conflicts directly with your theory that chanters should only mez adds. Mezzing adds is just an extra safety net the chanter birngs to a group. My role is to make sure only one mob is active, everyone is buffed, cast effective debuffs on the active mob, and occasionaly contribute to DPS if the opportunity presents itself and mana permits.
Don't tell me to do research on a class I'm effective at playing. I know when my mezzs get broken and how that effects the groups dynamics and mana consumption. Trust me, chanters mez mobs!
Think about it a second. Your group is fighting 4 linked mobs and none are mezzed. For the sake of this discussion the mobs do 10 DPS each. With none of the mobs mezzed they are hitting the tank for 40 DPS. With 3 mobs mezzed they are hitting him for 10 DPS. That means unmezzed the mobs are doing 300% more damage and the healer is expending up to 300% more mana.
Also its harder for tanks to hold agro on mobs they are not fighting. So the unmezzed mobs not being hit have a greater chance of agroing the mage/scout/healer.
I understand that in some situations AOE tactics will take mobs down faster and increase the rate of exp. This is counterbalanced by the fact that such groups are more liekly to die and accrue debt. I believe its a fairly balanced trade off though I find people really like having a chanter type in their group.
As coercer I keep all mobs mezzed except the one the tank is hitting and I've had alot of success. That is not to say that is all I do, just my first priority. Once I've got all mobs locked down or while locking down I hit the active mobs with stuns, dots and silences. I am regularly told in merely average groups that this the best group the person has had in days/weeks/ever. When I go LFG I'm instantly snatched up by groups 3-4 lvls above me. This clearly indicates that there is VERY HIGH demand for chanters and that my style of playing a chanter increases a groups effectiveness substantially.
While you may not agree with chanter tactics every person I group with, with obvious exception of Dragonflymoon, does so frankly I am right. My experience conflicts directly with your theory that chanters should only mez adds. Mezzing adds is just an extra safety net the chanter birngs to a group. My role is to make sure only one mob is active, everyone is buffed, cast effective debuffs on the active mob, and occasionaly contribute to DPS if the opportunity presents itself and mana permits.
Don't tell me to do research on a class I'm effective at playing. I know when my mezzs get broken and how that effects the groups dynamics and mana consumption. Trust me, chanters mez mobs!
Alex, could I have "Wizards Who Accuse others of EQ1 Mindset but Don't Even Seem to Read the Thread" for 100 please?
The answer is: "The highly experienced Wizard players on THIS site can't even agree as to whether or not Wizzes should even AoE or not."
Um, what is Graffes?
Correct! One hundred dollars to the challenger.
-------------
Please take the time to read the whole thread and the links people put here (the SoE and Graffes ones) before preaching to us, incorrectly, that we all advocate mindlessly locking down all mobs in all situations, okay?
When you preach "get off that EQ1 mindset, this is EQ2", it's just as valid for some of us to snap back "stop mindlessly trying to justify your chain-nuking addiction and think what's good for the party, not what's good for your ego". But I don't want it to boil down to that. We had this thread pretty much settled, anyway. We were all pretty much in agreement that wizzes and enchanters can and should coexist in the same party, that open communication is a good idea - that the group should talk about when to chain-area-nuke and when to mez - it's a case by case call and not a global, blanket call - and heck, if you didn't get it above, scroll up and link to Graffe's (and that SoE one) - the good and smart wizzes there can't even agree on whether or not AoE is really better than DDing!
To say Enchanters are really dpsers who sort of mez adds as an afterthought - gah - all I can say is "what are the commies putting in your water supply?" Have you ever considered that part of beating the adds is to have the first group under control in the first place? If four mobs are wailing on the tank, the healer over-heals - and in the middle of starting to mez one of the mobs off the healer the pops arrive - the Enchanter is locked for precious seconds - and one of the new pops is a caster - and ... heck, you can't mez on an overheal if the wiz has INSITED on doing AoE DoTs... hell, I either want the caster of a group mezzed and his minions taken out first - or something - I don't want that caster running amok - there are so many cases where it just makes sense to mez.
Yes, duh, you are not doing it for the same reasons as in EQ1. You are not doing it because the tank can't really taunt and keep the mobs on him. At least not very well. You're mezzing it for all sorts of other, new, EQ2 reasons that require a little thinking outside the box (and requires controlling the twichy finger "must nuke must nuke" at least a tad). In part you are mezzing so that on that rare chance when the merde hits the fan, you are ready for it. Yes, AoE efficiency is a fact (except that Graffes and the SoE post say "think outside the box" on this one - again, go read the links) - but "being on the safe side" is also a fact - and that, being on the safe side, is what prevents debt from piling up - and NOT AoE efficiency. That comes directly from my experience playing, not guesswork. Maybe I've only had crappy groups, but then again, until this game matures, that's another fact of EQ2.
You last few posters - coming in and saying Enchanters are mainly DPS - and that LadyMoonFrog was right - don't make me get out EvilPimpGnome. Okay? Please, even I am scared of the EvilPimpGnome. He's... brrr... trust me, you don't want to meet him. ... JK
... or am I? 
The answer is: "The highly experienced Wizard players on THIS site can't even agree as to whether or not Wizzes should even AoE or not."
Um, what is Graffes?
Correct! One hundred dollars to the challenger.
-------------
Please take the time to read the whole thread and the links people put here (the SoE and Graffes ones) before preaching to us, incorrectly, that we all advocate mindlessly locking down all mobs in all situations, okay?
When you preach "get off that EQ1 mindset, this is EQ2", it's just as valid for some of us to snap back "stop mindlessly trying to justify your chain-nuking addiction and think what's good for the party, not what's good for your ego". But I don't want it to boil down to that. We had this thread pretty much settled, anyway. We were all pretty much in agreement that wizzes and enchanters can and should coexist in the same party, that open communication is a good idea - that the group should talk about when to chain-area-nuke and when to mez - it's a case by case call and not a global, blanket call - and heck, if you didn't get it above, scroll up and link to Graffe's (and that SoE one) - the good and smart wizzes there can't even agree on whether or not AoE is really better than DDing!
To say Enchanters are really dpsers who sort of mez adds as an afterthought - gah - all I can say is "what are the commies putting in your water supply?" Have you ever considered that part of beating the adds is to have the first group under control in the first place? If four mobs are wailing on the tank, the healer over-heals - and in the middle of starting to mez one of the mobs off the healer the pops arrive - the Enchanter is locked for precious seconds - and one of the new pops is a caster - and ... heck, you can't mez on an overheal if the wiz has INSITED on doing AoE DoTs... hell, I either want the caster of a group mezzed and his minions taken out first - or something - I don't want that caster running amok - there are so many cases where it just makes sense to mez.
Yes, duh, you are not doing it for the same reasons as in EQ1. You are not doing it because the tank can't really taunt and keep the mobs on him. At least not very well. You're mezzing it for all sorts of other, new, EQ2 reasons that require a little thinking outside the box (and requires controlling the twichy finger "must nuke must nuke" at least a tad). In part you are mezzing so that on that rare chance when the merde hits the fan, you are ready for it. Yes, AoE efficiency is a fact (except that Graffes and the SoE post say "think outside the box" on this one - again, go read the links) - but "being on the safe side" is also a fact - and that, being on the safe side, is what prevents debt from piling up - and NOT AoE efficiency. That comes directly from my experience playing, not guesswork. Maybe I've only had crappy groups, but then again, until this game matures, that's another fact of EQ2.
You last few posters - coming in and saying Enchanters are mainly DPS - and that LadyMoonFrog was right - don't make me get out EvilPimpGnome. Okay? Please, even I am scared of the EvilPimpGnome. He's... brrr... trust me, you don't want to meet him. ... JK
... or am I? 
Scholar
40 posts
EvilGnomes, do tanks now generate hate equally among a group of mobs regardless of which one is being hit or are group taunts just plain better in EQ2?
Good question. I think group taunts are just pretty good. Hate is not equally generated by the tank in my experience.
If I haven't made the error of buffin the tank as he pulls (that makes huge hate for me), and if I've let the tank taunt, area swipe and area taunt ... and waited a bit to heal... and started lite w/ regrowth, holding off on Bloom or other instant heals - I never pull agro from his main target - that he is hitting and dishing single-target taunt and area taunt on. Never. But the other ones in the group sometimes leave the tank and get on me. What is weird is that sometimes all of them will (except for the tank's main target), sometimes only one will. Hard to say at this point why.
But because of this I'd say hate isn't generated equally. And my guess is that EQ2's area taunt is pretty good, even though it doesn't always hold the whole group's agro (that said I've been in groups where I almost never drew any agro at all... oh but that was also a grp w/ a chanter... hm).
Edited, Thu Jan 13 19:26:46 2005 by EvilGnomes
Edited, Thu Jan 13 19:28:15 2005 by EvilGnomes
If I haven't made the error of buffin the tank as he pulls (that makes huge hate for me), and if I've let the tank taunt, area swipe and area taunt ... and waited a bit to heal... and started lite w/ regrowth, holding off on Bloom or other instant heals - I never pull agro from his main target - that he is hitting and dishing single-target taunt and area taunt on. Never. But the other ones in the group sometimes leave the tank and get on me. What is weird is that sometimes all of them will (except for the tank's main target), sometimes only one will. Hard to say at this point why.
But because of this I'd say hate isn't generated equally. And my guess is that EQ2's area taunt is pretty good, even though it doesn't always hold the whole group's agro (that said I've been in groups where I almost never drew any agro at all... oh but that was also a grp w/ a chanter... hm).
Edited, Thu Jan 13 19:26:46 2005 by EvilGnomes
Edited, Thu Jan 13 19:28:15 2005 by EvilGnomes
As someone who played a top level enchanter in eq1(completed all currently available content). I have to disagree with most of the enchanters on this thread. I don't play an enchanter in eq2, because if anything they are a drag on the group. EQ2 much more favors the "burn em down" mindset at any level. The best group you can get? Guardian, cleric, bard, wizard type, and 2 dps (rogue type, assasin, monk type, ranger, wizard, beserker), is the absolute best group you can get. Throw an enchanter in there and your xp gets cut in half. Aggro is jacked in this game at the moment. As a bard I can attack a mob other than the one that the tank is on and kill it all on my own and never even have it look at me once. AE hate skills are way too good. With a half decent tank, a wizard can AE nuke a group of 5 mobs to death without getting hate. Good tank > enchanter.
AE's with the green backround do NOT break mezz. The mezzed mob will not take damage and the rest of the unmezzed mobs in the encounter will. I really wish SOE would perma sticky this in the patch notes. Tanks in this game have the ability to keep agro on groups of mobs and if they are good at what they do, they can hold it very well. These two things are opposite of how it was in EQ1 and it's taking me some time to adjust as well. I do like it though and think it's a refreshing change.
Well, wizzes burning everything down for you goes great ... until the party wipes. And that's been my experience. Again, playing w/ an enchanter, one one wipe so far. And again, that was when someone triggered an army of like 50 undead on us by ******** up in FMG and doing something out of order. Yeah, a wiz group hunting in a predictable outdoor area, grinding on undead or clusters of gnolls say - wonderful. Chanters don't need to mez there. But go into a dungeon... Try to do the Zek boat... Hah.
But then again, if you are right, if SoE has made a game where a whole class really is irrelevant - great job, Sony! Another feather in your cap. But is it the feather of a turkey or a loon?
But then again, if you are right, if SoE has made a game where a whole class really is irrelevant - great job, Sony! Another feather in your cap. But is it the feather of a turkey or a loon?
Everyone needs to keep in mind noone is advicating mezzing groups of green mobs with down arrows.
Yellow and reds get most the mezzing. Named in groups with smaller creatures get mezzed usually. Simply so we can beat down the minions while holding the Hard hitter still.
Personally I have not been in a single pick up group to-date. I always group wiht guildies and 80% of my groups 4+ of us have had team speak going. We don't look for the "optimal group", we use what we got on hand.
My normal group is a SK, Cleric, and me the Coercer. There is also a Shammy, Necro, Warrior, Bard, Druid and Wizzard that get rotating in from time to time. The fun ones are with no healer. :)
Yellow and reds get most the mezzing. Named in groups with smaller creatures get mezzed usually. Simply so we can beat down the minions while holding the Hard hitter still.
Personally I have not been in a single pick up group to-date. I always group wiht guildies and 80% of my groups 4+ of us have had team speak going. We don't look for the "optimal group", we use what we got on hand.
My normal group is a SK, Cleric, and me the Coercer. There is also a Shammy, Necro, Warrior, Bard, Druid and Wizzard that get rotating in from time to time. The fun ones are with no healer. :)
Scholar
44 posts
I'm not trying to advocate that an enchanter should never mez a target in the current encounter. There are always exceptions. I'm referring to enchanters who think it's their job to mez every mob, in every encounter. I have no issue with an enchanter who wants to mez a named in the encounter while we focus on the minions.
Again though, I say...AE spells with Green backgrounds DO NOT affect mezzed mobs or mobs outside of the encounter.
Again though, I say...AE spells with Green backgrounds DO NOT affect mezzed mobs or mobs outside of the encounter.
1 post
Having played both an illusionist and a guardian, i'd recommend that some of the enchanter posters in this thread, try a tank a class so they can understand there role better.
As i see it, enchanters are great at mitagting damage, but the main way you do it is stiffles, and power drain not mez.
Continous breeze on the whole party. If your not dinking around, but actually on an exp tear this will let everyone go all out. By waiting till people are low on mana you have wasted a whole lot of time they could be regening.
mezzing group adds or arrow up mobs not engaged by the MA. (Non arrow up mobs don't really do that much damage and worry about mezzing them detracts from the more important things an enchanter can be doing.)
providing decent dps through dots and nukes.
Liberal use of health to mana allows you to do all the above, and you will be incredible busy.
If your tank continously is unable to hold the agro of a group of mobs then he has a problem and you should probably get a new tank.
The ironic thing is the original poster was berating a wizard for not knowing how to play his class when the truth was the he was the one who did not know how to play his class.
And even though it was said many times in this thread, green aoes don't break mez. Only HO aoes break mez, which doesn't matter much since they won't break mez on add groups. The only time it might matter is on a named mez type situation, hopefully the group will remember in that special circumstance not to trigger it since everyone agreed to use mez durring that fight or MA would be on named.
I played on enchanter in eq1 and while the illusionist in eq2 is different it is still valuable.
As i see it, enchanters are great at mitagting damage, but the main way you do it is stiffles, and power drain not mez.
Continous breeze on the whole party. If your not dinking around, but actually on an exp tear this will let everyone go all out. By waiting till people are low on mana you have wasted a whole lot of time they could be regening.
mezzing group adds or arrow up mobs not engaged by the MA. (Non arrow up mobs don't really do that much damage and worry about mezzing them detracts from the more important things an enchanter can be doing.)
providing decent dps through dots and nukes.
Liberal use of health to mana allows you to do all the above, and you will be incredible busy.
If your tank continously is unable to hold the agro of a group of mobs then he has a problem and you should probably get a new tank.
The ironic thing is the original poster was berating a wizard for not knowing how to play his class when the truth was the he was the one who did not know how to play his class.
And even though it was said many times in this thread, green aoes don't break mez. Only HO aoes break mez, which doesn't matter much since they won't break mez on add groups. The only time it might matter is on a named mez type situation, hopefully the group will remember in that special circumstance not to trigger it since everyone agreed to use mez durring that fight or MA would be on named.
I played on enchanter in eq1 and while the illusionist in eq2 is different it is still valuable.
Oo just to derail a sec. the last poster mentioned DPS.
I was starting to feel left out in the damage dealing Dept untill I got my level 28 Nuke. I hit for a tad over 400 the other night :)
I agree that the higher levels we get the less mezzing I am doing on mobs in the group. More and more of my mezzing is outside the group. You just have to roll with the punches and learn to use your abilities to fit the group you are in.
If the casters and clerics are recieveing a beatdown when you try AoEing, maybe mezzing some of those mobs would be better.
Last night we did Nek Castle for the 1st time. We got all the sisters killed when I needed to log for a B-Day party but the other 5 continued on.
The did fine with just the 5 of them for another hour with no chanter. I got to hear the story later that night when they wiped on the Boss mob, Lord Everling. That fight had the lord that was ++, a pet and 4 minions. They could not keep aggro off the cleric and wiped. They all wished I had been there to lock those mobs down there would have been no issue at all. Well at LEAST a lot easier.
I gusee we will find out in 4 days.
I was starting to feel left out in the damage dealing Dept untill I got my level 28 Nuke. I hit for a tad over 400 the other night :)
I agree that the higher levels we get the less mezzing I am doing on mobs in the group. More and more of my mezzing is outside the group. You just have to roll with the punches and learn to use your abilities to fit the group you are in.
If the casters and clerics are recieveing a beatdown when you try AoEing, maybe mezzing some of those mobs would be better.
Last night we did Nek Castle for the 1st time. We got all the sisters killed when I needed to log for a B-Day party but the other 5 continued on.
The did fine with just the 5 of them for another hour with no chanter. I got to hear the story later that night when they wiped on the Boss mob, Lord Everling. That fight had the lord that was ++, a pet and 4 minions. They could not keep aggro off the cleric and wiped. They all wished I had been there to lock those mobs down there would have been no issue at all. Well at LEAST a lot easier.
I gusee we will find out in 4 days.
Good post coptic.
Quote:
Think about it a second. Your group is fighting 4 linked mobs and none are mezzed. For the sake of this discussion the mobs do 10 DPS each. With none of the mobs mezzed they are hitting the tank for 40 DPS. With 3 mobs mezzed they are hitting him for 10 DPS. That means unmezzed the mobs are doing 300% more damage and the healer is expending up to 300% more mana.
After playing this game from day 1 to today and never having grouped with an enc once in all that time, I can say that in a reg exp group you really don't need the chanter. I would rather have a DPS class. Ok so now I can here u say what a loser he don't know anything about the class! And the curse words fly :P
I am basing this on the fact that as a tank I have the gear and AC and HP to hold the line weather its 1 or 4 mobs. When we get donne with any encounter I am the lowest on power not the healer. I only lose agro when some just don't understand the word ASSIT THE MT.
Now if we are doing a raid encounter then yes I love to have a Chanter with. They are also good to have when you are in an area that has alot of adds to Mezz the adds.
Nothing says love more then a great tank to hold agro and a could AoE DPS to drop groups fast!
And no I am not saying there is no place for a chanter, but I do think if you try to play this gane with the mind set that you are a EQ1 chanter you are in for a let down. None of class's are anything like there EQ1 counter parts.
Is there a place for a chanter in the group you bet! Can the group with a wiz sure they can. Are chanters the end all say all of the game? Nope not by along shot! They are just another
class in the game. All a group needs to have success is a Tank (one with AC nad HP up to the job, a healer, and DPS. Any combo of that wins. A chanter can add DPS to a group but no mezer will not break a good group, like not having a tank or a healer.
4 posts
Quote:
But go into a dungeon... Try to do the Zek boat... Hah.
I've got news for you: my group ae'ed the hell out of Zek boatride and EL boatride. We didn't have a chanter and we didn't need one.
It's that simple people. Holy trinity group tactics ala "mez everything and beat them down one at a time" is EQ1 thinking and it will get you killed in EQ2.
I'm not saying mez is useless, nor am I saying enchanters are useless (breeze kkthxla~) however you do NOT need to mez 4 out of 5 mobs in a locked encounter! Stop trying to say healers can't keep up with heals blah blah blah. Those encounters were designed with player AE spells in mind.
If you don't like the fact that Wizards/Warlock groups can mow down multi-mob encounters - fine - DON'T JOIN THOSE TYPES OF GROUPS! But don't try and force the rest of us to go along with your fraidy cat tactics. kthx
ZZ
Edited, Mon Jan 17 15:50:29 2005 by ZeddofOasis
This thread has now officialy become a textbook case-study in "overauthorititis".
Now I'm as guilty as anyone else here, but none of us are really reading what the other people are saying - and we're just weighing in as "authorities" without - well, among other things - without answering the big question: when to mez (if at all) and when to ae? And when if ever to AE DoT when a chanter's in the group?
First off, the assumption that we want the chanter to mez down *everything* but the one thing the tank is on - it's frickin impossible in many cases. The chanter's recast on his mez is too slow - and depending on the level and the chanter's upgrades, he doesn't have that many mezzes that work on the range of mobs.
Unless I've missed it, not one of you 'pro-ae chanters should stifle and breeze and only mez the occasional add' types have responded to the links from graffe's and SoE way earlier in this threat - which say that AEing may not be the way to go - may not be the optimized kill path in most encounters! There is a strong argument that straight DDing is the best route. It's still up in the air.
Again, unless I've missed it, no one has responded to my challenge that while AEing works in a lot of cases, I've seen it lead to deaths and wipes. And w/ an enchanter locking down mobs early on, so when the adds come, it isn't chaos - it's controlled - and no one dies. I don't know the answer here - but faster killing w/ death debt building up doesn't nec. outpace slightly slower killing w/ little or no debt. See? No one is trying to help me with this. Instead I get "well you need to play a tank and see how that goes before you get on the mezzing bandwagon" or some such insead of directness - hell, I play a healer, maybe you need to play a healer to see the benefit of not blowing all your power every fight and having no healing reserve when adds appear.
Now look, I could be wrong. Yes, the game asks us to take AEing very seriously - and maybe that's the way to go. But we're also given Mezzers, too. And I think every single one of you AE proponents, when you're not castigating us for being old-eq-mindset w/out even reading our words - have said "mezzing is important".
Okay then. When?
Again, clearly it's a case by case call. You can point to a situation where AEing worked. I've yet to hear you guys mention a situation where it didn't. What? You aren't dying? You always win and never wipe? Now, I'm not saying we should be so afraid of wipes that we never have any guts and go for it. But there is a point where one system works much better in these areas - and the other works better in those. A buildup of debt just plain sucks no matter what.
And what I also worry about is that we're slipping towards the old FFXI mindset that I've seen so many people complain bitterly about (hey now it's my turn to blindly accuse you guys of being like some other game, what a horrible hypocrite I am!) - and I'm worried that too many people are being discouraged to play enchanters. Well, if area nukers always get the job done, what am I worried about? Maybe I'm being sentimental, maybe I really am old eq minded. But then again, maybe we'll want those chanters - and where are they? Gone, cuz no one wanted to group w/ them on the way up. Think that's not the case or won't be? I've run into so many posters and players who have dropped their chanter "cuz i can't get a group" that it has alarmed me.
But maybe SoE has designed a game where a whole set of casters is superfluous. Yay Sony!
Maybe we should go back to the first post. In that experience, we don't really know if the chanter was over mezzing or not. All he was asking was for the wiz to look at the spells and see which ones would wake mezzed mobs and which ones wouldn't. It may have only been for less downtime for the healer between fights (something a lot of you aren't recognizing) - who knows? Mostly it was the wiz's attitude in that first post that was so appaling to me. LadyMoonPie never said "gee, we're killing stuff so easily, why don't we forget mezzing except for adds and join together and nuke away as dpsers, both of us?" She just came on w/ major bad attitude. I think the point is that if the mezzing was needed in that situation - and it might have been by almost all posters' admissions - then she was NOT receptive to the idea. She was not receptive to "oh, i'll just use these area nukes and not do AE Dots - problem solved" - she was instead insistent on being a female dog about it - her husbasnd had taughter her everything there is to know about mmo's, after all - she was God's own annointed expert here. SHEESH.
I think all the original poster wanted was for some of you to "think outside the box" a bit and try to get or understand a more subtle form of play - and to see that AEing doesn't always work. If AEing does always work, if one wiz always aeing is God's Holy Way - and if we should ae DoT to make sure the chanter can't mez when the brown stuff flies... okay then, I'm totally wrong and can go bury myself in the ground.
Now I'm as guilty as anyone else here, but none of us are really reading what the other people are saying - and we're just weighing in as "authorities" without - well, among other things - without answering the big question: when to mez (if at all) and when to ae? And when if ever to AE DoT when a chanter's in the group?
First off, the assumption that we want the chanter to mez down *everything* but the one thing the tank is on - it's frickin impossible in many cases. The chanter's recast on his mez is too slow - and depending on the level and the chanter's upgrades, he doesn't have that many mezzes that work on the range of mobs.
Unless I've missed it, not one of you 'pro-ae chanters should stifle and breeze and only mez the occasional add' types have responded to the links from graffe's and SoE way earlier in this threat - which say that AEing may not be the way to go - may not be the optimized kill path in most encounters! There is a strong argument that straight DDing is the best route. It's still up in the air.
Again, unless I've missed it, no one has responded to my challenge that while AEing works in a lot of cases, I've seen it lead to deaths and wipes. And w/ an enchanter locking down mobs early on, so when the adds come, it isn't chaos - it's controlled - and no one dies. I don't know the answer here - but faster killing w/ death debt building up doesn't nec. outpace slightly slower killing w/ little or no debt. See? No one is trying to help me with this. Instead I get "well you need to play a tank and see how that goes before you get on the mezzing bandwagon" or some such insead of directness - hell, I play a healer, maybe you need to play a healer to see the benefit of not blowing all your power every fight and having no healing reserve when adds appear.
Now look, I could be wrong. Yes, the game asks us to take AEing very seriously - and maybe that's the way to go. But we're also given Mezzers, too. And I think every single one of you AE proponents, when you're not castigating us for being old-eq-mindset w/out even reading our words - have said "mezzing is important".
Okay then. When?
Again, clearly it's a case by case call. You can point to a situation where AEing worked. I've yet to hear you guys mention a situation where it didn't. What? You aren't dying? You always win and never wipe? Now, I'm not saying we should be so afraid of wipes that we never have any guts and go for it. But there is a point where one system works much better in these areas - and the other works better in those. A buildup of debt just plain sucks no matter what.
And what I also worry about is that we're slipping towards the old FFXI mindset that I've seen so many people complain bitterly about (hey now it's my turn to blindly accuse you guys of being like some other game, what a horrible hypocrite I am!) - and I'm worried that too many people are being discouraged to play enchanters. Well, if area nukers always get the job done, what am I worried about? Maybe I'm being sentimental, maybe I really am old eq minded. But then again, maybe we'll want those chanters - and where are they? Gone, cuz no one wanted to group w/ them on the way up. Think that's not the case or won't be? I've run into so many posters and players who have dropped their chanter "cuz i can't get a group" that it has alarmed me.
But maybe SoE has designed a game where a whole set of casters is superfluous. Yay Sony!
Maybe we should go back to the first post. In that experience, we don't really know if the chanter was over mezzing or not. All he was asking was for the wiz to look at the spells and see which ones would wake mezzed mobs and which ones wouldn't. It may have only been for less downtime for the healer between fights (something a lot of you aren't recognizing) - who knows? Mostly it was the wiz's attitude in that first post that was so appaling to me. LadyMoonPie never said "gee, we're killing stuff so easily, why don't we forget mezzing except for adds and join together and nuke away as dpsers, both of us?" She just came on w/ major bad attitude. I think the point is that if the mezzing was needed in that situation - and it might have been by almost all posters' admissions - then she was NOT receptive to the idea. She was not receptive to "oh, i'll just use these area nukes and not do AE Dots - problem solved" - she was instead insistent on being a female dog about it - her husbasnd had taughter her everything there is to know about mmo's, after all - she was God's own annointed expert here. SHEESH.
I think all the original poster wanted was for some of you to "think outside the box" a bit and try to get or understand a more subtle form of play - and to see that AEing doesn't always work. If AEing does always work, if one wiz always aeing is God's Holy Way - and if we should ae DoT to make sure the chanter can't mez when the brown stuff flies... okay then, I'm totally wrong and can go bury myself in the ground.
4 posts
Quote:
Again, unless I've missed it, no one has responded to my challenge that while AEing works in a lot of cases, I've seen it lead to deaths and wipes.
LOL that's like saying, "if I go adventuring it will lead to death and wipes and xp debt!" Oh nos!!!1111one
Of course there will be times with any tactic fails or when the players die. A taunt could fail, a heal could fizzle etc etc.
Risk Vs. Reward anyone?
Here is your response:
If you're seeing that happen a lot, chances are - you're grouped with people that don't know what they are doing. You can't sorta ae and back off. The deaths you will see is usually a chanter panics mid ae fight and tries to mez one of the mobs (that's dotted) and them promptly having the **** beat out of them.
Leave it alone - let the tank do his job - let the Wizards and Warlocks do their jobs.
Quote:
Okay then. When?
Far be it for me, a dastardly Wizard to tell a chanter how to play their class but a good time to use MEZ is when a_random_mob_02 wanders up to the party whilst they're ae'ing down a locked group of 2, 4, 6, other mobs.
Mez is great for adds - mobs that are *not part of the currently engaged locked encounter*. I cannot make it any simpler than that.
Quote:
I think all the original poster wanted was for some of you to "think outside the box" a bit and try to get or understand a more subtle form of play - and to see that AEing doesn't always work.
This is truly laughable. The original poster and you evilnomewhatever are the ones stuck in the box - not the Mages, Wizards and Warlocks.
AEing always works - I've never seen a situation where it didn't. I have seen situations where enchanters tried to hold off multiple mobs and eventually ran out of mana and was either useless at that point or dead.
Single target Nukes are good for single target encounters. It's unreasonably silly to expect a DPS caster to single target Nuke 1 mob at a time in a multi-target encounter.
ZZ
Edited, Mon Jan 17 19:42:03 2005 by ZeddofOasis
Mr. Authority, scroll up and go read the links. Okay, it's dirt obvious you didn't read them. So go read em. The guy who posted em did so in order to convert me - and I go there - to GRAFFE"S mind you (you do know what Graffe's is, right?) and to an SoE post by an experienced set of wizards - and what do I find? I find them saying AEing isn't nec. the best way and that there is a strong case for DDing GROUPS. Hey, I'm not even saying that they're right. They could be wrong. Just read em.
Of course it all depends on the situation. Outdoors w/ no roamers and big groups - AE all the way. That's been okay. Dungeon crawling? I want a chanter.
Again, you're tellin me you never wipe AEing? With one wiz in the group and no chanter, I've wiped plenty. Once w/ a chanter. Once, and again it was cuz someone screwed up bigtime. So I'd like to see the Wiz respecting the Chanter a little - unlike in the OP - cuz the chanter could save our butts - not the wiz - until he gets evac at level whatever.
I have not seen any consistency w/ this glorious all-AE stuff yer braggin about. I've seen it work - then splat. Some of my best groups have been w/ enchanters - none w/ AE only. Talk about how to make it work consistently if you want to convert me. And I'm talking dungeon crawls with tough ^ and ^^ mobs and unexpected pops and roamers. I'm talking it's 2 am and we're all tired cuz it took a while to get down there.
And again, when someone who is a player comes in here and complains about debt, they aren't complaining about teeny debt - so don't think you're going to get away with that little bit of sophist spinning there (oo wimp wimp!) It's stifling, collosal omfg why did I group with these morons debt that we are usually talking about.
And it isn't just the debt. If you wipe way down in a dungeon u gotta reform, fight back down - and then - if you had a good spot - you might have lost it. Yeah, there's no official camping - but a lot of mmoers respect camps, anyway. There are simply tons of situations where a little over-mezzing works in the long run. Does this mean never AE? Of course not. I still say AEing is overrated and that you guys have a case of "dazzled by the new game and not really analyzing the situation properly".
Of course it all depends on the situation. Outdoors w/ no roamers and big groups - AE all the way. That's been okay. Dungeon crawling? I want a chanter.
Again, you're tellin me you never wipe AEing? With one wiz in the group and no chanter, I've wiped plenty. Once w/ a chanter. Once, and again it was cuz someone screwed up bigtime. So I'd like to see the Wiz respecting the Chanter a little - unlike in the OP - cuz the chanter could save our butts - not the wiz - until he gets evac at level whatever.
I have not seen any consistency w/ this glorious all-AE stuff yer braggin about. I've seen it work - then splat. Some of my best groups have been w/ enchanters - none w/ AE only. Talk about how to make it work consistently if you want to convert me. And I'm talking dungeon crawls with tough ^ and ^^ mobs and unexpected pops and roamers. I'm talking it's 2 am and we're all tired cuz it took a while to get down there.
And again, when someone who is a player comes in here and complains about debt, they aren't complaining about teeny debt - so don't think you're going to get away with that little bit of sophist spinning there (oo wimp wimp!) It's stifling, collosal omfg why did I group with these morons debt that we are usually talking about.
And it isn't just the debt. If you wipe way down in a dungeon u gotta reform, fight back down - and then - if you had a good spot - you might have lost it. Yeah, there's no official camping - but a lot of mmoers respect camps, anyway. There are simply tons of situations where a little over-mezzing works in the long run. Does this mean never AE? Of course not. I still say AEing is overrated and that you guys have a case of "dazzled by the new game and not really analyzing the situation properly".
4 posts
You aren't too observant are ya?
If you had read that thread at graffes with any real attention you'd have already gathered who I was, since I've posted numerous times in the thread.
For the record:
2 - 3 [unknown] forum apprentices saying "ae'ing with a mezzer is stupid" does not = the official opinion of Graffe.com or the actual Wizards that post at Graffe.com We have our whiners and trolls like any other board unfortunately.
Nope - not yet. This includes such horribly bad encounters such as EL boat ride, Zek Boat ride and the clay guardian multi-mob encounters in RoV.
ZZ
Quote:
Mr. Authority, scroll up and go read the links. Okay, it's dirt obvious you didn't read them. So go read em. The guy who posted em did so in order to convert me - and I go there - to GRAFFE’S mind you (you do know what Graffes is, right?)
If you had read that thread at graffes with any real attention you'd have already gathered who I was, since I've posted numerous times in the thread.
For the record:
2 - 3 [unknown] forum apprentices saying "ae'ing with a mezzer is stupid" does not = the official opinion of Graffe.com or the actual Wizards that post at Graffe.com We have our whiners and trolls like any other board unfortunately.
Quote:
Again, you're telling me you never wipe AEing?
Nope - not yet. This includes such horribly bad encounters such as EL boat ride, Zek Boat ride and the clay guardian multi-mob encounters in RoV.
ZZ
Yeah, I guess I'm not that observant - especially since this thread makes my eyes *bleed*.
You've made your point. But you said nothing of any substance to refute the links. I don't think what they say is nec. gospel, but they make really good points. Oh but you know better - just pooh pooh them and that's good enough. Okay, sorry, I didn't realize you were all-knowing.
I don't believe you on the other one. It goes heavily against my experience. On a few encounters, sure, but I'm talking over a lot of playing. And in hard places. Against challenging mobs. After hours of play. At the bottoms of dungeons. When everyone is tired. When the mistakes start getting made.
That's when I want an enchanter and not mindless AE. I'd love an enchanter and thoughtful AE. But the OP was about mindless AE, and I think that most posters here have missed that. They may think they've gotten it, but in the rush to brand others "old eq mindset" they've totally glossed over compelling arguments and gone for the spiffy sound-bite attack. People've been watching politicians argue too much.
Well, I'll let you have the last word. I'm not going to read any more of this thread. I don't think you read those links - and if you did you chose not to tell me where they were wrong. So if that's the best you can do, this is the best I can do.
Your side is going to win this one, anyway, so I don't know what I'm arguing for. The FF mentality so hated by all the exFFers who have moved here seems inevitable to me. Go ahead, make your power groups and spurn the enchanters - don't let anyone mez. Make sure to AE DoT all the time so they can't. Have fun when you realize you actually need someone to mez and no one can be found. You contributed to it. END - EVILGNOME HAS NOW OFFICIALLY LEFT THIS THREAD.
You've made your point. But you said nothing of any substance to refute the links. I don't think what they say is nec. gospel, but they make really good points. Oh but you know better - just pooh pooh them and that's good enough. Okay, sorry, I didn't realize you were all-knowing.
I don't believe you on the other one. It goes heavily against my experience. On a few encounters, sure, but I'm talking over a lot of playing. And in hard places. Against challenging mobs. After hours of play. At the bottoms of dungeons. When everyone is tired. When the mistakes start getting made.
That's when I want an enchanter and not mindless AE. I'd love an enchanter and thoughtful AE. But the OP was about mindless AE, and I think that most posters here have missed that. They may think they've gotten it, but in the rush to brand others "old eq mindset" they've totally glossed over compelling arguments and gone for the spiffy sound-bite attack. People've been watching politicians argue too much.
Well, I'll let you have the last word. I'm not going to read any more of this thread. I don't think you read those links - and if you did you chose not to tell me where they were wrong. So if that's the best you can do, this is the best I can do.
Your side is going to win this one, anyway, so I don't know what I'm arguing for. The FF mentality so hated by all the exFFers who have moved here seems inevitable to me. Go ahead, make your power groups and spurn the enchanters - don't let anyone mez. Make sure to AE DoT all the time so they can't. Have fun when you realize you actually need someone to mez and no one can be found. You contributed to it. END - EVILGNOME HAS NOW OFFICIALLY LEFT THIS THREAD.
6 posts
Poster from Graffe's here! /wave
AE = Situational
Situations: ^^Mobs = Very Inefficient
^Mobs = Mostly Inefficient
Mobs = Efficient
Single D. Arrow Mobs = Very Efficient
Double D. Arrow Mobs = Extremely Efficient
The above situations are based on one AE'er (Wizard or Warlock) in group. Add one more AE'ers and adjust that table accordingly. For those that would like me to nail down a color con - the above applies from Grey to Orange.
I make no attempt to berate the enchanter archetype in this post as I find that archetype to be quite powerful and very useful. What I don't find is that they are necessary. Additionally, I do not find that AE'ers are absolutely necessary either. Again, these are both situational. I will give some examples.
If your group is fighting in the path of roamers, and enchanter is invaluable. If you are fighting red cons, and enchanter is extremely helpful. If you are fighting named mobs - or other boss types - and enchanter is again, quite useful. The only situation above where the strength of the enchanter comes from mez is in the roamer situation. It is my strong belief that the true power of an enchanter does not lie in their ability to Mez, but rather in their ability to cripple and incapacitate mobs as well as increase the effectiveness of their allies. Draining a ^^ mob of its power reduces its effective fighting level dramatically. The stuns are insane! I needn't go into the regen and haste abilities of the class, as these are a no brainer. Anyone who would not take an enchanter in their group is shortchanging themselves.
As for AE'ers - forget the debuffs as the debuffs are specific to the spell types of the class casting them (ex. Wiz AE debuffs = heat/cold Warlock = poison/disease). They also have minor effects such as stiffling (silence) and reducing int and wis. Nay, forget that stuff. The main function of them is DPS. Mobs simply die faster when AE'ed and this makes for a more efficient grind. Mez hinders this process and is outwardly apparent. But it is not always the most efficient use of the AE'ers power (see above table). Pretty short paragraph huh? =)
The problem that I see emerging is that people take the path of least resistance. AE'ing is that path. We do not want to alter tactics according to the situation. We want a cure-all, a panacea, if you will. Since AE'ing is most efficient and enchanter strength does not lie in DPS - and DPS is really what it all boils down to anyway - the enchanter is least desired. That's the way I see it.
Rest assured that while the enchanter isn't "needed" for a standard grind, we will find - in the end - that there are encounters in this game that will be nigh unbeatable without them. Ignore enchanters at your own peril.
For the record, I play as a level 36 wizard.
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