HELP! ...should i be a paladin or guardian? I like being able to tank really well and played a paladin in eq but i know theres a lot of things different about eq2. Sucks that pals cant use bows ...do they get any pacify spells so they can single pull? ...the vanguard armor sounds awesome for guardians but isnt there cool armor for paladins? i mean how much worse are pals for tanking and stuff?
Yeah im a newb just starting eq2 but i want to make the right choice. thanks for any help :)
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HELP! ...should i be a paladin or guardian?Follow
It all depends. I don't have a pally or SK. But normally when I meet a pally or sk, I have double the AC of them. That could be because I'm wearing full Vanguard, and I'm a guardian. But then again, I don't see anything wrong with letting a Hybrid Tank. But I'm sure that in later levels the MT's will almost certainly be Guardians. Just like in EQ1.
Scholar
33 posts
Hehe, actually I disagree with you Kensi. Guardians have a slight advantage in raw damage mitigation, as the tower shields and AC buffs help, however in later levels having the MT able to heal and ward has proven invaluable. I would go so far to say as the guardian has the advantage in group encounters, while the paladin serves better against a single ^^ encounter. In emergency add situations, I feel the paladin has the advantage in keeping the group together with his heals and wards, while the guardian has the advantage in a break-and-run situation, with hold the line.
The truth is, both are equal tanks so far in my experience. I would imagine that remains so until the end-game, or what is the end-game for now. They do the job differently, but both do it equally well and the group's progress is determined by how well they know how to get the job done, not just by class.
The AC difference between the guard and pal is basically because of the huge difference in shield factor of tower vs. kite shields, and self-buffs. as a paladin, if you keep your gear on the cutting edge (all pieces yellow+) you should be very competitive AC-wise to a guardian. Let's face it, a few hundred more AC is not going to make your group any better in the long run.
The truth is, both are equal tanks so far in my experience. I would imagine that remains so until the end-game, or what is the end-game for now. They do the job differently, but both do it equally well and the group's progress is determined by how well they know how to get the job done, not just by class.
The AC difference between the guard and pal is basically because of the huge difference in shield factor of tower vs. kite shields, and self-buffs. as a paladin, if you keep your gear on the cutting edge (all pieces yellow+) you should be very competitive AC-wise to a guardian. Let's face it, a few hundred more AC is not going to make your group any better in the long run.
^^^^ Time for a nerf then.
Never.. EVER, should a hybrid be a better tank then THE tank class.
Edited, Wed Dec 29 14:31:39 2004 by Kensi
Never.. EVER, should a hybrid be a better tank then THE tank class.
Edited, Wed Dec 29 14:31:39 2004 by Kensi
I am sorry but a paly comes no where near a guardian. With equally leveled equipment a guardian will be wearing vanguard with a tower shield while a paly will be wearing heavy. The difference in ac is considerably higher and with the guardians def boosts it far outranges palys. To be honest, against a single mob, my bruiser can out tank palys and don't even talk about if grouped with a defiler/shammy.
I love monks/bruisers, but I have only seen one.. and he was only lvl 15..
9 posts
I heard pallies can wear vanguard armor as well...even one pally in the game showed me a piece that she was wearing?...now i'm getting all confused lol. Is there higher levels of vanguard thats better and better looking than what a pal can get lol? Sounds like most would recommend being a guardian...however i enjoyed playing a pal in eq 1, just not sure what they are like here and if they are any good.
Hrmm... I can't quite remember but how much difference is there between heavy plate and vanguard armor at level 20? I could've sworn the differences weren't that much if any. The only time I saw a definite advantage with vanguard were the player crafted ones. I just wanted shiny armor that looked like a full suit (and FINGERED gauntlets, no mitts ><)... not chainmail'ish... Although the plate helm is more appealing than the rust bucket of a barbute for the vanguard. :P
I do not have experience with the crusader class, but I heard they solo better than Guardians. I haven't had much trouble except when I pushed my luck too far. :D
I think the deciding factor would be preference, since they are both tanks, and what you'd rather do. I know Guardians have more party benefitting buffs than self ones and from what I've read, Crusaders have more self buffs than party ones. The Pally's and SK's can correct me if I'm wrong.
I do not have experience with the crusader class, but I heard they solo better than Guardians. I haven't had much trouble except when I pushed my luck too far. :D
I think the deciding factor would be preference, since they are both tanks, and what you'd rather do. I know Guardians have more party benefitting buffs than self ones and from what I've read, Crusaders have more self buffs than party ones. The Pally's and SK's can correct me if I'm wrong.
26 posts
Paladin or Guardian... There's ALOT of Guardians, so.. when the end game comes around persay, they'll be no shortage of that, right now I have a level 32 paladin, and to say a bruiser can outank me makes me wanna lol... I've tanked in RE at 31, RoV Guardians at 26, and I've done it all with one healer. One thing guardians are good at is holding agro on all the mobs? The paladin cant? Lemme say sir, the paladins you've grouped with are idiots, when pulling a group of mobs, -always- blinding light, inflame, divine inspiration (its a buff, a buff generates a ton of agro) rune, buff, Oath Strike (for dps) charge, rinse repeat. I've held more agro then a berserker -or- a guardian in any situation, and I can ward to generate more agro, LoH a group member(or myself) and can heal my group members, I bring extra mana to the party with Prayer of Devotion, and I have self agro buffs. Groups choose tanks based on agro, hp/ac. At 32 im 2350 unbuffed and 2100 ac unbuffed, the only thing I've seen equally equiped guardians have on me is AC, by about 100, max, and thats if they chose defensive traits. All in all, Paladin = Agro, lots of it, and ability to keep group alive. Guardian = AC/HP, more then a paladin, and ability to hold agro on group mobs supposedly... well, ive compared myself to an equal level berserker and a guardian, cleric spent about half as much mana healing me with Rune, now, bad thing about paladin is our DPS is horrid, and since we dont get a powerful shield we dont have as much ac... the end game is basically level 40-50, so... thats now, for now I'd pick Paladin, but im biast after seeing the other tanks in action draining healers mana like nobody's buisness! (And Paladins get a horse at level 20, which looks pretty elegant, but you'll bore of it after like 2 levels =) Hope This helped! (btw, armor like Vanguard doesnt matter at all, the armor you get at higher levels is for all the classes, Hearth forged, etc, RE gobbo rampage armor) And Paladins arent Hybrids, there fighter classes, there just a different branch, a "Guardian" or
"Berserker" is a branch of fighter, theres no need of a nerf on anything, everything is working as intended =)! At least, for now, Paladin is the best choice for grouping (which atm, is all there is to do really, until level 50!) Also, a Paladin in a raid group is a -HUGE- bonus, group him with a guardian, he can give him 500 ac, couple hundred HP (by sacrificing his own), not sure if that buff stacks, but shoving 5 paladins in a single guardians group would give him a few K ac boost! (Btw, all spells used were Adepts in the comparisons!
"Berserker" is a branch of fighter, theres no need of a nerf on anything, everything is working as intended =)! At least, for now, Paladin is the best choice for grouping (which atm, is all there is to do really, until level 50!) Also, a Paladin in a raid group is a -HUGE- bonus, group him with a guardian, he can give him 500 ac, couple hundred HP (by sacrificing his own), not sure if that buff stacks, but shoving 5 paladins in a single guardians group would give him a few K ac boost! (Btw, all spells used were Adepts in the comparisons!
No love for the pallies =p
21 posts
I went Guardian,
Guardians have the best mitgation and team buffs.
Pally's can tank and tank well, but they dont have the same skill sets as Guards.
In fact all fighting classess can tank well, Pally's, SK's, Monks, etc.
However, the two best are Bezerkers and the Guardians.
GL
Yagyu
23 Guardian
Guardians have the best mitgation and team buffs.
Pally's can tank and tank well, but they dont have the same skill sets as Guards.
In fact all fighting classess can tank well, Pally's, SK's, Monks, etc.
However, the two best are Bezerkers and the Guardians.
GL
Yagyu
23 Guardian
Well, not sure. It depends I guess, but I'm not familiar with Guardian class. The paladins get the Vanguard armour too, at least I'm wearing an almost full set of it, apart from two pieces I found better for.
Hate spells are plenty for a paladin, even buffs to take away hate from other players and transfer it to the paladin.
A guardian should have more AC I believe, yet a paladin has other advantages.
Paladins can pull from a distance, Righteous Anger allows this. (being able to use a bow is nicer though :(
Armour quests for heavy armour would give the same results for a guardian as well as a paladin, so I don't see the difference there.
In short, I'ld say it is up to you. If you really only want to be a tank, then go for Guardian. If you are interested in a free horse, go Paladin. Just don't go swimming with it, for some reason they still drown in EQ II as in EQ I. :)
Hate spells are plenty for a paladin, even buffs to take away hate from other players and transfer it to the paladin.
A guardian should have more AC I believe, yet a paladin has other advantages.
Paladins can pull from a distance, Righteous Anger allows this. (being able to use a bow is nicer though :(
Armour quests for heavy armour would give the same results for a guardian as well as a paladin, so I don't see the difference there.
In short, I'ld say it is up to you. If you really only want to be a tank, then go for Guardian. If you are interested in a free horse, go Paladin. Just don't go swimming with it, for some reason they still drown in EQ II as in EQ I. :)
1 post
this comes up all over eq1, which is better, hybrids or warriors, most of the tiime we come to the decision that hybrids can keep extreme hate on the monsters... stuns etc... sks with their jolt line also just makes the mob pissed... so it comes to- guardians are best choice for raids, and hybrids are best choice for groups, of course guardians can also tank in groups, dont get me wrong, but in eq1 warriors had a severe aggro problem if they didnt have a blade of war or dual wielding aggro proccing weaps... either path you choose im sure youll be happy with
5 posts
Jesus Christ dont you ever ever learn if this thread was in september i wouldnt say nothign but 29 december and what not.
Pallys SK's Guardians and Berserkers all can wear the Vanguard armours that is available so far.
I out taunt a pally in mere seconds with my Berserker. and that is without using any damage skills. if I then taunt a little. Well not much to break of my aggro.
Guardians get Excellent skills to guard companions. That is if the tank gets hit a guardian can shield him so that he doesnt take damage from those hits.
A berserker on the other hand wears same kind of armours as the guardian. But does a massive amount of more damage thus he will steal the aggro from the guardian. and hopefully the guardian will guard him.
Had an Sk once that managed to hold aggro. Needless to say I did not use many of my more effective damage skills.
Pallys SK's Guardians and Berserkers all can wear the Vanguard armours that is available so far.
I out taunt a pally in mere seconds with my Berserker. and that is without using any damage skills. if I then taunt a little. Well not much to break of my aggro.
Guardians get Excellent skills to guard companions. That is if the tank gets hit a guardian can shield him so that he doesnt take damage from those hits.
A berserker on the other hand wears same kind of armours as the guardian. But does a massive amount of more damage thus he will steal the aggro from the guardian. and hopefully the guardian will guard him.
Had an Sk once that managed to hold aggro. Needless to say I did not use many of my more effective damage skills.
Scholar
33 posts
I don't see the point of the who-can-taunt-more-than-the-other argument. As the main tank, all you need to do is carry more hate then the other members of the party. Even if you are grouped with a second tank, he will not be taunting if you are the MT. Hence even if the berserker or guardian can taunt 3-4 times as much as the paladin, if the paladin can keep hate from the rest of the party its a moot point.
3 posts
For high-end encounters you got to have someone who can hold aggro on ALL the mobs (and there will be plenty of them). This role is best filled by a Beserker because nobody is gona hold aggro on that many mobs like a Beserker can.
The problem with the Beserker tanking all those mobs is that they cannot tank as well as a Guardian can. In fact, nobody can tank like a Guardian can. However, they cannot hold aggro as well as a Beserker under these conditions. But guess what ladies and gentlemen, they are not supposed to. Their signature ability is an ability called Sentinel which allows them to take damage meant for someone else (guess that is why they are called "Guardians" and not "UberTank").
The obvious solution here and which has been proven most efficient by those that know how to play in the high-end game is that these two classes need to work together. The Beserker holds all the aggro and the Guardian takes most of the damage that the Beserker would have taken. The healers end up healing the Guardian almost exclusively eventhough it is the Beserker that all the mobs are beating on.
The problem with the Beserker tanking all those mobs is that they cannot tank as well as a Guardian can. In fact, nobody can tank like a Guardian can. However, they cannot hold aggro as well as a Beserker under these conditions. But guess what ladies and gentlemen, they are not supposed to. Their signature ability is an ability called Sentinel which allows them to take damage meant for someone else (guess that is why they are called "Guardians" and not "UberTank").
The obvious solution here and which has been proven most efficient by those that know how to play in the high-end game is that these two classes need to work together. The Beserker holds all the aggro and the Guardian takes most of the damage that the Beserker would have taken. The healers end up healing the Guardian almost exclusively eventhough it is the Beserker that all the mobs are beating on.
This is probably a *really* ignorant question, but a pseudo-tactic just came to mind, after reading this discussion.
It was mentioned above that in a group with 2 tanks, where one is obviously MT, the secondary tank would *not* be taunting. Well I have a question about that. Now, let me begin by saying I'm new to the tanking business, so please tell me if there is something glaring that I am missing! After all, I want to learn how to do this the *right* way, not necessarily *my* way!
Why not let the 2nd tank taunt? The way I see it, if the mob is ping-ponging between 2 tanks, then the overall risk is lower, since no one tank will lose an inordinate amount of HP (which sometimes causes a healer to get some pucker-factor, as the MT's hit points drop).
In other words, rather than making 1 tank lose potentially 75% of his HP, and having a healer chaincast on him, why not let *2* tanks lose 25-30% of their hp each? After all, targetting isn't as much an issue in this game as in EQ1.
Anyway, this is just a noob looking in from the outside, so there might be some very good reason that I have not experienced yet that makes it a good idea to make sure only 1 tank is taunting.
It was mentioned above that in a group with 2 tanks, where one is obviously MT, the secondary tank would *not* be taunting. Well I have a question about that. Now, let me begin by saying I'm new to the tanking business, so please tell me if there is something glaring that I am missing! After all, I want to learn how to do this the *right* way, not necessarily *my* way!
Why not let the 2nd tank taunt? The way I see it, if the mob is ping-ponging between 2 tanks, then the overall risk is lower, since no one tank will lose an inordinate amount of HP (which sometimes causes a healer to get some pucker-factor, as the MT's hit points drop).
In other words, rather than making 1 tank lose potentially 75% of his HP, and having a healer chaincast on him, why not let *2* tanks lose 25-30% of their hp each? After all, targetting isn't as much an issue in this game as in EQ1.
Anyway, this is just a noob looking in from the outside, so there might be some very good reason that I have not experienced yet that makes it a good idea to make sure only 1 tank is taunting.
3 posts
Russo,
The tactic you refer to makes sense in certain situations dependant upon the scenario and mechanics of the game you are playing.
For example, suppose you have a Beserker and a Guardian duoing in EQII. Their first attempt at a particular mob was to let the Guardian tank the mob. The result was that the Guardian died and then the Beserker was able to finish off the mob.
In this scenario, the Guardian should pull the mob and hold aggro (with the Beserker's cooperation) until he has lost about half his health or so. Then the Beserker would use his taunting abilities to steal aggro from the Guardian. The Beserker would then tank the mob until it dies. Both guys would be roughed up a bit but they would have survived. Your idea was obviously a good one in this scenario.
However, if you have enough healing ability in your group. Optimal efficiency will be obtained in a group which has a Guardian and a Beserker by letting each of those classes do what they do best for the entire battle.
Beserkers hold aggro extremely well mostly on account of their amazing taunting abilities. Their damage output is pretty significant as well, but it is their signature taunting abilities that makes them unrivaled at holding aggro. This special ability comes at the cost of reduced defense which means that their tanking ability suffers greatly when they do this.
All fighter types get an ability called Intervene which gives the fighter a chance of intercepting hits directed at someone else. However, the Guardians get a most significant upgrade to this ability called Sentinal. They also have HP/AC and abilities which make them unrivaled at soaking up damage.
Your most precious resource in a fight is your party's hitpoints. Since the Guardian takes less damage WHEN HIT than other classes it makes sense to let them be the ones that get hit instead of the other party members provided you have enough healing power to keep the Guardian alive. However, because of the Guardian's unique ability they do not have to be the MT to accomplish this.
So, how do Paladins fit into this picture? Well the main things they can do would be to help reduce the amount of healing required by putting their Ward on the Guardian, stunning the current target mob, and by blocking hits destined for the Beserker using their Aegis of Hope ability. Of course there are a plethera of additional things that the Paladin can do to assist such a group. Paladins are an extremely versatile group friendly class. Paladins can tank very well and can use their Wards on themselves to extend there hitpoint pool when they are the main tank, but when they do get hit they will take more damage than a Guardian would have taken. Therefore it makes more sense to let the Guardian be the one taking the hits and put your Paladin Wards on the Guardian.
The tactic you refer to makes sense in certain situations dependant upon the scenario and mechanics of the game you are playing.
For example, suppose you have a Beserker and a Guardian duoing in EQII. Their first attempt at a particular mob was to let the Guardian tank the mob. The result was that the Guardian died and then the Beserker was able to finish off the mob.
In this scenario, the Guardian should pull the mob and hold aggro (with the Beserker's cooperation) until he has lost about half his health or so. Then the Beserker would use his taunting abilities to steal aggro from the Guardian. The Beserker would then tank the mob until it dies. Both guys would be roughed up a bit but they would have survived. Your idea was obviously a good one in this scenario.
However, if you have enough healing ability in your group. Optimal efficiency will be obtained in a group which has a Guardian and a Beserker by letting each of those classes do what they do best for the entire battle.
Beserkers hold aggro extremely well mostly on account of their amazing taunting abilities. Their damage output is pretty significant as well, but it is their signature taunting abilities that makes them unrivaled at holding aggro. This special ability comes at the cost of reduced defense which means that their tanking ability suffers greatly when they do this.
All fighter types get an ability called Intervene which gives the fighter a chance of intercepting hits directed at someone else. However, the Guardians get a most significant upgrade to this ability called Sentinal. They also have HP/AC and abilities which make them unrivaled at soaking up damage.
Your most precious resource in a fight is your party's hitpoints. Since the Guardian takes less damage WHEN HIT than other classes it makes sense to let them be the ones that get hit instead of the other party members provided you have enough healing power to keep the Guardian alive. However, because of the Guardian's unique ability they do not have to be the MT to accomplish this.
So, how do Paladins fit into this picture? Well the main things they can do would be to help reduce the amount of healing required by putting their Ward on the Guardian, stunning the current target mob, and by blocking hits destined for the Beserker using their Aegis of Hope ability. Of course there are a plethera of additional things that the Paladin can do to assist such a group. Paladins are an extremely versatile group friendly class. Paladins can tank very well and can use their Wards on themselves to extend there hitpoint pool when they are the main tank, but when they do get hit they will take more damage than a Guardian would have taken. Therefore it makes more sense to let the Guardian be the one taking the hits and put your Paladin Wards on the Guardian.
Although paladins get abilities to help others AC does not mean they are support tanks. The days of hybrids are long gone people.
I am level 26, I know not the highesat of levels. But to say gaurdians have double the AC and HP is just plain ignorant.
With shield unbuffed i got 1600ish AC. Gaurdians of the same level are either the same or have 50 AC at the most.
As far as tanking in groups? It's the players skills that does the trick not the class. Sure gaurdians have 100ish more hp, and about 50-100ish more AC. that's trivial.
I have had NO problem holding aggro.. ever. Multiple targets? Bring em; no problem. Now I do agree that if Paladin and guardian are in same group, gaurdian should tank, the paladin makes them a better tank. But on their own? There is no diffrence. matter fact, some people perfered me over a gaurdian tank. Why? I can play my class well. and that's what matters!
As I said before, the days of hybrids/non hybrids are over. And people should expell the thought from their minds when they log into EQ "2".
I am level 26, I know not the highesat of levels. But to say gaurdians have double the AC and HP is just plain ignorant.
With shield unbuffed i got 1600ish AC. Gaurdians of the same level are either the same or have 50 AC at the most.
As far as tanking in groups? It's the players skills that does the trick not the class. Sure gaurdians have 100ish more hp, and about 50-100ish more AC. that's trivial.
I have had NO problem holding aggro.. ever. Multiple targets? Bring em; no problem. Now I do agree that if Paladin and guardian are in same group, gaurdian should tank, the paladin makes them a better tank. But on their own? There is no diffrence. matter fact, some people perfered me over a gaurdian tank. Why? I can play my class well. and that's what matters!
As I said before, the days of hybrids/non hybrids are over. And people should expell the thought from their minds when they log into EQ "2".
Dave, I believe you should play whatever class you believe you will enjoy the most playing. Therefore if you enjoy your class in most instances you will learn to become a good player of your class. So all in all just pick which one you enjoy. It doesn't even matter who thinks what class is best as long as you enjoy playing the class you play!
Good Luck in making your decision if you haven't already!
Good Luck in making your decision if you haven't already!
3 posts
Just wanted to point out that my posts were not claiming that only the Beserker can hold aggro adequately, nor were they claiming that only a Guardian can tank adequately.
It is true that in EQ2 most of the fighter-based classes can tank adequately in many cases.
However, I was refering to optimal efficiency of groups where the main tanks are a Beserker and a Guardian. I then pointed out how a Paladin would best be used in such a group. And the assumption here was that all classes were equal level, equally equiped, and equally competent.
Aggro management is not the solely dictated by the class of the main tank. Aggro management is very much a group effort. Every group that manages to survive the first 15 minutes of playing together has either figured out how far they can push things without getting aggro themselves, or they are just being very conservative and not contributing as much as they could.
It has been my experience that pickup groups that manage to survive the first 15 minutes are generally very conservative groups.
It is my contention that a Beserker (played properly) will hold aggro consistantly better than any other fighter-based class. This allows a fine-tuned group to get maximum dps without concern of loosing containment. If you read up on the Beserker class you will see that is what they were designed to do.
Conversely, if you look at the soloability and experience grouping of each of the figher-based classes I believe that SoE has done a good job of achieving class balance.
I am not saying one class is the best, I am merely pointing out that each class has a unique specialization which makes them best at one particular facet of succesful encounters. Great rewards can be obtained by those that recognize these and learn how to use them to maximum benefit.
That being said, there are also great rewards in just being fortunate enough to group with friends and just have fun without worrying about maximum efficiency :) Thanks to the good class balance in the game this can be done much easier in EQII than it could be done in EQLive.
Edited, Mon Jan 10 14:58:03 2005 by witl
It is true that in EQ2 most of the fighter-based classes can tank adequately in many cases.
However, I was refering to optimal efficiency of groups where the main tanks are a Beserker and a Guardian. I then pointed out how a Paladin would best be used in such a group. And the assumption here was that all classes were equal level, equally equiped, and equally competent.
Aggro management is not the solely dictated by the class of the main tank. Aggro management is very much a group effort. Every group that manages to survive the first 15 minutes of playing together has either figured out how far they can push things without getting aggro themselves, or they are just being very conservative and not contributing as much as they could.
It has been my experience that pickup groups that manage to survive the first 15 minutes are generally very conservative groups.
It is my contention that a Beserker (played properly) will hold aggro consistantly better than any other fighter-based class. This allows a fine-tuned group to get maximum dps without concern of loosing containment. If you read up on the Beserker class you will see that is what they were designed to do.
Conversely, if you look at the soloability and experience grouping of each of the figher-based classes I believe that SoE has done a good job of achieving class balance.
I am not saying one class is the best, I am merely pointing out that each class has a unique specialization which makes them best at one particular facet of succesful encounters. Great rewards can be obtained by those that recognize these and learn how to use them to maximum benefit.
That being said, there are also great rewards in just being fortunate enough to group with friends and just have fun without worrying about maximum efficiency :) Thanks to the good class balance in the game this can be done much easier in EQII than it could be done in EQLive.
Edited, Mon Jan 10 14:58:03 2005 by witl
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