Suxguide to Grouping ^_^ ...Follow

First, to let some of you know, I had, for lack of anything better to do at the time, posted this last week in a thread that was quickly going down-hill and has since been rated below the default threshold. I decided to go ahead and make a new post to get some actual feedback about this particular post. If there is interest I will take the time to write something a little more detailed. If there isn't any interest well, we can just let the thread die and that will be that. ^_^;;


Newest Copy, disregard the below stuff, just leaving it to show the history of it so far.


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[copy & paste job from other thread]


As far as a guide to grouping goes, I supposed I could write one. The only problem is- at this point a lot of the tactics that would be applicable in EQ2 coming from EQ1 will almost be guesswork. Sure there are main generic roles to fill. There are generic ways to fill them, but the combat mechanics are, while similar, very different than in EQ1.

It's hard to pinpoint what it is, but let me see if I can whip out some similarities, differences and possible situational tactics. If people like it I'll work on rewriting it with more detail.

I know I should start a new thread for this, but wtf this thread is useless so why take up more space due to a whim. =)

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Deykann's Suxguide to Grouping
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Groups have multiple base roles that need to be filled. Keeping in mind that I am currently at the time of writing only a level 21 ShadowKnight, here is what I have seen so far.

The main roles in a group should be divided into 4 groups. Tanks, DPS (Damage Per Second, EQ1 term for any primary damage dealer), Damage Mitigation (healers, or anyone that can offset damage via buffs, runes, heals, etc), Crowd Control. In EverQuest (1) we saw similar groupings: Tanks, DPS, Healer, Buffer, Crowd Control. I have combined Healer and Buffer into one group as EQ2 has expanded the usefullness of healer into a base class instead of a master healer (cleric) and 2 or 3 sub-par healers (druid, shaman, beastlord).

In EQ2 we see the people that make up the Tank class as the people that started with a base of Fighter. In a group these are your meat-flavored shields. They absorb damage so you don't have to. If you are a tank the last thing you should be worrying about is how much damage you do. While high damage is good, that is NOT your role. You are supposed to take damage so other people can use their high damage abilities.

Priorities for a Tank:
1) Hold Aggro
2) AC and HP, nothing else matters.

If you don't hold aggro, you die. You die because the healer is usually the next in line to get aggro and when he/she dies who is left to keep you from dropping? Noone. Beyond keeping aggro, you need to have your AC and HP as high as you can possibly afford to get it. If you can't absorb the damage then you will die and so will the rest of the group.

Moving on to healers next. A healers first and foremost concern is the Tank. You keep that person alive at ALL COSTS. If the Tank drops, you are next. Forget nukes, unless tactics call for mass nuking and DPS over anything else. In 98% of all cases you are to be healing. I have not played an EQ2 healer, but in EQ1 a healer avoided aggro at the beginning of fights (the most crucial time) by casting a low aggro "heal over time" (HOT) on the main tank. This simple cast will keep the tank alive for you to get a stronger heal off. It also gives them time to get aggro efficiently. After assuring the tank is in good condition, and only when he/she has controlable health, THEN you may worry about group heals or spot healing one of the other group members. They should never have the focus of the enemy so if they get whacked once or twice it's not going to kill them.

DPS classes, usually of the scout sub-type, rangers, rogues, bards and also mage sub-types are the stuff DPS classes are made from. You deal damage, that is your job. Forget anything else (unless you are designated to do a specific alterior job). First on your list DISH IT OUT. Even if you can't take it - give the mobs hell. It is your primary job to see the mobs die. You need to be careful however, as you do not want the attention of a mob. If necessary, space your attacks out some. This requires a bit of trial and error. If you are in a group and are spamming your most powerfull spells/abilities and you are consistantly gaining aggro from the mob that the tank is trying to hold then you are overdoing it. You need to find the balance where the mob dies fast and you stay unhurt.

Damage mitigation classes I saved for last for a reason. The reason being is that they can fall into any of the above groups. Some fighter sub-types have nice damage mitigation spells. Some scout sub-types also have important abilities to lessen enemy damage output, as do priests and mages. This is something to be decided when a group is formed. Who should do what to ensure the damage output of mobs is lowered. Shaman have, throughout EQ1, been a wonderful group addition due to their slows and hastes as well as straight stat buffs. This, in a small way, carries over to EQ2, however mroe classes have some equally usefull spells and abilities. Enchanters were also a very bigg buffing class - as were clerics and druids, and let us not forget the bards.

To close this up quickly, every class is usefull to a group, it's just a matter of figuring out what you need to be doing and sticking to that. DO NOT TRY TO DO SOMEONE ELSES JOB... YOU WILL DIE, AND SO WILL THE GROUP.


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Ok, let me know if you guys like that and I will rewrite it a little cleaner and with some further information and tactic concepts. I only scratched the surface with that, but it SHOULD help a few people not used to EQ play-styles.





Edited, Tue Dec 21 22:03:08 2004 by gxm

good post

Thanks for the information. Everyone else please feel free to add your personal experience with tactics. Let's see if I can gather enough information to make this a "comprehensive" guide.

Also, when providing tactics, try to be as specific as you can. Provide skill names, spell levels, character levels. Even to the extent of what your group composition was. How many people you had, what classes and what levels.

This is going to be an unbiased guide. Everyone has their role in a group and can (for the most part) solo just as well as the next person. But the differences are undeniable - some classes dish out more damage than others while at the same time they just can't take the hits the others can.

Give me some feedback on your experiences.

I just made a chanter alt and would certainly add this; For the love of all that is holy make a damn assist button and use it!

Here is a reworked write-up for any interested. Please leave comments/ffedback on what you might change or add.

Suxguide v1.0


Thanks. =)

Hey, not a bad start. I couldn't open the reworked thread one for some reason - but i'm on my laptop - so... well, I'll add this anyway. It's important.

You were right when you said it's sort of an old eq approach to eq2. That's how a lot of us are, me included - and it's not bad. Us old eq-ers are at least thinking, at least trying to max out techniques and etc.

The biggest area I'd work on adding to the guide is "HOW TO GET OFF GOOD HO'S IN GROUP". This is one area where eq2 is quite different, and frankly I'm astonished at how bad most groups I'm in *still* are at coordinating HOs.

In fact this is a whole, new multi-layered task. But it mostly revolves around the Scout.

Many classes, if they initiate a chain, can only do a limited one - esp. priests. You need to find a site that lays out what all the HOs do - and write em down on paper to have handy while u play.

Basically a certain order gets you the "best" nukes from HOs. Sorry I've misplaced mine, but I'll try to put one of hte good HO sites here.

But basically here is the drill - let healer get off his first heal. He has made a button to tell hte group, 'heal done, start HO'. Everyone knows that the scout is starting his HO - and should stop casting/doing abs. The scout may have to delay a few secs. Then he launches it. The NEXT person to match a symbol puts you on a certain course towards a tree of possible HO outscome, or so it seems to me so far. For a cross-ho in a big group, you have to do several more in order - and finally you get the big wheel.

When the big wheel is up, anyone can cast again.

And at this point the scout is back at work. He has to read the name of the HO that's been brought up. If it is the sucky buff he has to say "changing HO" and do a coin. Hopefully this will bring the killer nuke htat you want. Whenever the scout decides to let that wheel complete - he should say "go for it, finish this wheel". You need to see what is required of you and know your symbols. A mult-arrow in the hub of the wheel means no order is required. A clockwise arrow = they have to be done in order. If you cast out of order you won't break the wheel, though. Once the big wheel is up it won't go away unless the timer runs out, it is finished or changed by the scout using a coin ability.

Anyway, you can already see the huge problem w/ HOs in pickup groups. You have to explain all htis crap to each and every new person who doesn't already know. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome time, in other words. And most players are so anxious to kill they won't really listen to you trying to teach them how to HO, well, maybe not most - but enough are. So most groups squeak in the solo HO, and that's it. It's a shame becasue proper HOing = really nice buffs running on the group, nasty debuffs running on the mobs, and killer nukes occasionally going off.

GL all - dangit I can't find that link (on my laptop, sorry) - I'll see if I can find it and pop it in here later - the link to a good HO site - or just google "EQ2 heroic opporunity guide".

The next step might be ... hehehe this just hit me - macroing "how to HO" in /g so you only have to hit a few buttons to tell the group how to HO... hahaha - actually this might make sense. Well, I'll try to find that link. And post it here later.

very interesting post.. I like it, a great beginning.

as I'm new to the everquest universe.. what I know about hate control comes from my time in another game as a healer... so I know how to not catch aggro too soon...

but.. question, where does summoner or a "pet class" fall? I would assume it's maily crowd control with DOT's being second since I've noticed my Nukes are not that strong, but I have a lot of DOT's and my pets are NICE.

I think it's an excellent start but I can see someone like me saying: I play "X" class.. where do my roles fit in...

what I would like to see more of in post like these is to not type-cast. "This job does this and nothing else." for the most part in a group situation that will be the case.. specialize and bring your strongest strength to the fore-front of the battle, however.. I think it's wise to remain versitile in case something goes wrong or if the group situation is a little odd or unusual. It's best to understand your strengths and weaknesses alone which determines what you can best bring to a group.

case in point I do a lot of duo's with my summoner.. with a few trio's.. and I would always tell them.. let the pet go in first, they usually don't have to ask why after forgetting once and watching someone's hit's drop to the low orange. My pet can't take hate from anyone.. but if it starts the fight and gains sufficient hate it will likely never loose it.... in a group without a healer class, this is VERY important. I can heal my pet.. but I can't heal a fighter.

so we were there taking double arrow whites and yellows and mass-group mobs (up to 3 at a time size groups) with little difficulty... I even got them to coordinate HO's by determining a starter, a second, and using myself as the finisher.. it was great.

This is so true. One of the best groups I have ever had was;

Inquis.
Warlock x2
Bard x2 (one dirge and one trub.)
SK

Certainly not the ideal group, but we did very well and plowed thru a very hard zone for our lvl.

It's true that you don't have to follow the "ordained way" here.

Heck, I bet a group of 5 AoE-ing wizards and one healer would, in certain cases, be an exp-making Ferarri - would probably beat the pants off a "normal" group. Don't flame - I said "in certain cases" - that means if you only pick certain fights designed to gain fast exp.

Anyway, it's a good guide, and the thread starter is right - people should learn the *basics* first - and *then* branch out. Picasso didn't start out drawing weird blue people - he started out drawing hands and fruit and stuff - just like any other artist. Once you know the basics, then of course, branching out into non-standard approaches is not only fine - it's necessary - you almost never get a standard group, for one thing. But knowing the basics will tell you what your non standard group can and can't do (if you don't have a healer there are certain encounters you just can't win, for example, etc etc).

As I posted above, I would add HOing to any group guide as a sub-part --- just because you do so much better in a group that does it right. In part, I'd love to group w/ more players who already know how it works. See, Sony loves to launch game w/out any useful instructions... they make us figure it out... and so far most players I've grouped w/ haven't (frustrating). Good luck all.

Great guide on here so far. I haven't looked at the actual guide yet as it is a PDF file and I'm too lazy to download it. Heh.
A HO guide would be greatly helpful, I'll have to check out those links to see how to get a good one off, and to teach others how to.
Me and a friend (I'm a 20 Dirge, she's a 21 Paladin) go out adventuring and get off a good HO with just us two, and it does make killing mobs easier, especially when you get one off that does well over 100 damage. We just need more friends so we can increase it. (=
Thanks for all the info guys! It's been a great help!