Disclaimer: Throughout my MMO history I have always played a support or healer job, so please forgive my lack of knowledge on these subjects.
In FFXI, I noticed that the most common pulling and tanking strategy involved two people. Pulling is usually done by someone who is capable of grabbing a small about of hate from a long distance and take a few hits before returning to camp. This allows the tank to more easily taunt the mob away from the puller and start tanking.
In EQ2, I've noticed that the tank is always the puller. I've never been in a party where the jobs were separated. This method can sometimes create problems when the tank returns to camp after having taken some heavy hits. The healer is then compelled to start feverishly curing the tank instead of casting debuffs on the mob. Additionally, hitting the tank with big cures in the beginning generates a ton of hate towards the healer that is often difficult to remove. This will often of start a chain reaction of hate bouncing all over the party.
Is it common for the tank to also pull in EQ2? If so, why?
If it is indeed better for someone other than the tank to pull, which class makes the best puller in EQ2?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
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Pulling and tanking strategies in EQ2Follow
can't say what's common but last night my summoner was doing a decent job of initiating combat..
send the pet in at a group of three.. pet tanks one, fighter taunts the other two off me and we set about working on them.. it went very well. we were fighting timberclaw gnolls and it was a group of 4 of us.
so I think pulling will vary with the situation..
playing my mage in a duo with a predator.. I would bind one mob and the 2nd would come at me.. as long as I kept the one bound the two of us could easily handle the one alone then go for his friend when we were done... worked pretty well but I honestly think for crowd control my summoner works a little better in the teen levels than my mage due to the pet.
send the pet in at a group of three.. pet tanks one, fighter taunts the other two off me and we set about working on them.. it went very well. we were fighting timberclaw gnolls and it was a group of 4 of us.
so I think pulling will vary with the situation..
playing my mage in a duo with a predator.. I would bind one mob and the 2nd would come at me.. as long as I kept the one bound the two of us could easily handle the one alone then go for his friend when we were done... worked pretty well but I honestly think for crowd control my summoner works a little better in the teen levels than my mage due to the pet.
Healers in EQ1 (yes different than EQ2, but bare with me) used the following tactics.
The tank, as puller, would pull a mob - as soon as the tank got within range the healer would use a Heal Over Time (Celestial Healing) to keep the tank alive and not generate a large amount of hate for the healer. After the HOT, depending on the strength of the mob, the healer might go into a complete healer (or any large scale healer for the current level in question). By the time the large heal when off the melee had been going on long enough for the tank to generate enough aggro to hold the mob.
The thing that everyone needs to remember is that so far the majority of players are still not very high in level. Try not to compare the end-game of one game to the beginning of another. We still have a long way to go before we start seeing real combat tactics form.
Do whatever works best for you right now and experiment as you go. In EQ1 level 20 tactics were nothing compared to level 60-70 tactics. So far I have yet to see boss mob positioning tactics and add kiting tactics for multi-spawn boss encounters (think: Terris Thule, EQ1). Nor have I seen multi-group efforts doing different things while a strike force kills the main mob (i.e. PoI, EQ1).
We still have a long way to go.
The tank, as puller, would pull a mob - as soon as the tank got within range the healer would use a Heal Over Time (Celestial Healing) to keep the tank alive and not generate a large amount of hate for the healer. After the HOT, depending on the strength of the mob, the healer might go into a complete healer (or any large scale healer for the current level in question). By the time the large heal when off the melee had been going on long enough for the tank to generate enough aggro to hold the mob.
The thing that everyone needs to remember is that so far the majority of players are still not very high in level. Try not to compare the end-game of one game to the beginning of another. We still have a long way to go before we start seeing real combat tactics form.
Do whatever works best for you right now and experiment as you go. In EQ1 level 20 tactics were nothing compared to level 60-70 tactics. So far I have yet to see boss mob positioning tactics and add kiting tactics for multi-spawn boss encounters (think: Terris Thule, EQ1). Nor have I seen multi-group efforts doing different things while a strike force kills the main mob (i.e. PoI, EQ1).
We still have a long way to go.
In reading these boards, I think everyone is too focused on what were the EQ1 (and FFXI) tactics, gameplay etc. It is a [u]different game. As soon as people get that into their heads and stop trying to play it like EQ1 (or whatever else), new tactics will emerge. This also goes for things like macros and soloing (not just pulling). I am not insulting anyone, this is just an observation after reading numerous posts.
oops. don't know how that underlining got in there. hit the wrong key or something.
Tank pulling by running up and whacking is a bad idea. If the tank pulls he should do it w/ a range attack so he can get back to camp undamaged. If the tank has no range attack, the scout can do it - but I'd use the cheapest, least damaging arrows possible. A caster can pull, but pull with a non-damaging spell. This seems to generate less hate. Test this to make sure, but so far I've seen things to indicate this is true (pulling with Weakness instead of Smite or Stining Swarm).
If the tank gets beat up too fast, as other posters said, consider options other than a big, straight heal. Try wards or regens. If you cast a damage shield be careful not to buff the tank *right* before the fight (as the badguys are incoming) - I've seen this cause mucho hate for the druid.
Mages, for pete's sake, would you puhlease start using your *root* spell more often? For most of you it's your only crowd control spell. If the mob gets off the tank and on the healer, root him. Yeah, it's slow casting, but try it. Trust me, you'll find less shared death debt piling up becasue if the mob is rooted the healer can back out of its melee range - and the mob will usually get back on the tank.
As another poster said, root group mobs as they charge in. Leave one hanging out there, helpless, while you kill his buddies, and then polish him off. Mages so far are largely thinking one-dimensionally - nuke nuke, HO, and nuke. Root is one of your only finesse spells. Please consider its power (sorry if I'm ranting, but for me, a druid, not to have root - and to explain grp after grp and not get through to people... well, the game is new and full of newbs).
Healer, where are you standing in a fight? CW says for eq2 to stand just behind the tank, not way back. You want to be just out of convenient melee swipe range, but if the mob switches to you, the mob should still be w/in area taunt range of the tank (also he can just spin to face it).
Also, grps need to know *when to run*. If you've overpulled or had too big a wanderer come at you while on a group - you need to know to yell and sprint away *early* while you have the power to do it. Of course this isn't as easy in dungeons, but outdoors it's a must.
Finally, what's with all these "all you old eq players need to stop talking about that game and realize - this is eq2 - it's a new game" stuff I'm reading in here? To set the record straight, old eq players are among the *smartest* players in this new eq2 precisely because we are thinking about tactics - and planning ahead - because that worked in old eq - and it works in new eq2. I can always tell when I'm grouped w/ an old eq player cuz I don't have to teach him the fundamentals of tactics - he's already on it - or he's teaching me something I hadn't thought of yet. Newbs to mmo's and *some* (not all) players from less dimensional games - these people I have to teach each and every new group. And they don't always get it. So please, stop dissing us old timers from old eq - we actually know something. And I'll work on being more tolerant towards new players and people new to eq. Thanks much.
If the tank gets beat up too fast, as other posters said, consider options other than a big, straight heal. Try wards or regens. If you cast a damage shield be careful not to buff the tank *right* before the fight (as the badguys are incoming) - I've seen this cause mucho hate for the druid.
Mages, for pete's sake, would you puhlease start using your *root* spell more often? For most of you it's your only crowd control spell. If the mob gets off the tank and on the healer, root him. Yeah, it's slow casting, but try it. Trust me, you'll find less shared death debt piling up becasue if the mob is rooted the healer can back out of its melee range - and the mob will usually get back on the tank.
As another poster said, root group mobs as they charge in. Leave one hanging out there, helpless, while you kill his buddies, and then polish him off. Mages so far are largely thinking one-dimensionally - nuke nuke, HO, and nuke. Root is one of your only finesse spells. Please consider its power (sorry if I'm ranting, but for me, a druid, not to have root - and to explain grp after grp and not get through to people... well, the game is new and full of newbs).
Healer, where are you standing in a fight? CW says for eq2 to stand just behind the tank, not way back. You want to be just out of convenient melee swipe range, but if the mob switches to you, the mob should still be w/in area taunt range of the tank (also he can just spin to face it).
Also, grps need to know *when to run*. If you've overpulled or had too big a wanderer come at you while on a group - you need to know to yell and sprint away *early* while you have the power to do it. Of course this isn't as easy in dungeons, but outdoors it's a must.
Finally, what's with all these "all you old eq players need to stop talking about that game and realize - this is eq2 - it's a new game" stuff I'm reading in here? To set the record straight, old eq players are among the *smartest* players in this new eq2 precisely because we are thinking about tactics - and planning ahead - because that worked in old eq - and it works in new eq2. I can always tell when I'm grouped w/ an old eq player cuz I don't have to teach him the fundamentals of tactics - he's already on it - or he's teaching me something I hadn't thought of yet. Newbs to mmo's and *some* (not all) players from less dimensional games - these people I have to teach each and every new group. And they don't always get it. So please, stop dissing us old timers from old eq - we actually know something. And I'll work on being more tolerant towards new players and people new to eq. Thanks much.
I agree, this is not EQ1, I know this. But as was stated - tactics are tactics. Sure they may need some major modification, but fundamentals are just that. Some of the rules have changed, but we still have the basics of EQ1 intact. Hate generation, crowd control, optimal healing tactics, pulling tactics, and may other concepts.
I too can tell when I am in a group with former eq1 players, we seem to work like clockwork... that is unless it's a few of us that like to see how much trouble we can get into... but then that is just funny...
I too can tell when I am in a group with former eq1 players, we seem to work like clockwork... that is unless it's a few of us that like to see how much trouble we can get into... but then that is just funny...
Quote:
You tell the group, 'hey have you ever seen a train this big'
Soandso tells the group, 'wtf'
You tell the group, 'yeah that's what I just said a few minutes ago when they aggroed... watch this'
Soandso tells the group, 'dude! don't come over here'
You tell the group, 'Hmm group buff, then Graven Embrace... woah aggro share!'
Sosandso tells the group, 'I hate you so much right now... PS I have your orange juice I made for you earlier, ill give it to you in a sec.'
Soandso tells the group, 'wtf'
You tell the group, 'yeah that's what I just said a few minutes ago when they aggroed... watch this'
Soandso tells the group, 'dude! don't come over here'
You tell the group, 'Hmm group buff, then Graven Embrace... woah aggro share!'
Sosandso tells the group, 'I hate you so much right now... PS I have your orange juice I made for you earlier, ill give it to you in a sec.'
I for on am not dissing EQ old timers as I am an old EQ player myself -- 70 Cleric, 65 Enchanter, 65 Shaman among others and Iplayed it for four years. My only point was the EQ2 gameplay is different so different tactics are needed. Many posts merely lament the fact that they can't use the same old EQ1 approaches. That said, I agree that having gameplay experience is invaluable to coming up with those tactics.
As to mages rooting, I have tried that on my 20 wizard but it doesn't seem to work for CC as people tend to fight the mobs in bunches and no one will move once I announce the mob is rooted! While one mob can be rooted as they come in, we do not have an AE root (at least I don't at 20) so it is impracticable to try to root groups of mobs. But I do agree root can be used effectively, if the group as a whole works with you.
As to mages rooting, I have tried that on my 20 wizard but it doesn't seem to work for CC as people tend to fight the mobs in bunches and no one will move once I announce the mob is rooted! While one mob can be rooted as they come in, we do not have an AE root (at least I don't at 20) so it is impracticable to try to root groups of mobs. But I do agree root can be used effectively, if the group as a whole works with you.
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