Message to SoE:
Rube Goldberg would be downright envious of your entire crafting system but no where would he be more green with said envy than with your player-merchant system. In a game filled with 'What The Hell Were They Thinking?' moments, here you've really outdone yourself.
Why is it you think we players do or should enjoy having to leave our computers on 24/7 so that we might be able to sell some of our goodies to other players? In the 'Official' response to this complaint, an EQ2 dev said that the game should not become a kind of virtual WalMart where you can just buy whatever it is you need and that you'd rather see the toons out exploring, fighting, doing quests or whatever. Point taken. But you didn't bother to explain why it is you think that having a player-bought merchant available to sell off whatever you manage to loot would stifle your stated goal, if it indeed would at all. If a player isn't constantly having to run back to his apartment and juggle buy/sell items, then he could spend more time out adventuring- isn't that your stated goal?
Here's what you should have done: blatantly rip-off DAoC's system.
Mythic doesn't have much right in their game (a year plus playing it gives me that perspective) but, with their merchant system they did do something right. It's simple, it's smart and it WORKS.
You've made it so that players in EQ2 can rent their own living quarters and decorate it as they see fit. That's right out of DAoC's handbook, except that you allow players to make their own furnishings rather than having to buy them (which is a nice touch). So here you're shown that you're not above taking a proven idea and embellishing it a bit (not that there's anything wrong with that at all) to make it better. So take the next step.
Allow players to purchase outright or rent a personal vendor to hawk their wares whether the player is online or not. Make it so that the merchant actually 'carries' the items you wish to sell so that you don't have to fill up your personal backpacks with stuff you want to sell (hard to acquire more loot if your packs are filled with stuff you want to sell). If you're selling harvested resources, allow the customer to see how much is available and that the price is either per STACK or per INDIVIDUAL PIECE. The Broker idea is fine, but also allow customers to aceess your personal merchant if they wish to take the time to travel to your home zone and buy there and save the Broker Commission.
I've had friends that have been put into the position of having to leave their computers on overnight with their toons sitting in their apartments so that their goods would show up for sale to the greatest number of potential customers. I've not been able to do that so, despite consciously undercutting other merchant prices on items that are in high demand, I've yet to sell a single copper piece worth of goods. Is THAT how you envisioned your system to work? I hope not.
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Player Merchant System Done RIGHTFollow
9 posts
Along with the above, I'd like to add in a complaint about the daily downtime. I cant have a merchant on during the day, since I leave for work before the downtime...that leaves me to either merchant in the evening when I want to be hunting or merchant during the late night/early AM hours when buyers are not on either
Actually I merchant around 2 am or 3 am EST. and I make ********* of money, at least on this server there's a trend that people go level in the afternoon, then settle down at night and do their craft.
It's a bit flawed, but the only other way I can see it is like FFXI AH set up. GAH. Don't get me started on the inflation and just the....crap. It's like, to me, bazaar mode and AH mode mixed. Yes, it could have been TONS better, but it's a lot better than what I'm used to, and being able to SEE how much other players sell their goods also helps keep prices reasonable. I know this is probably not the time or place, and I do agree the merchant system is flawed, at best, but here's what happened today to me;
I log into FFXI. I'm just selling whatever I have left over and giving my gil to a friend, so I'm putting up what I have for a bit cheaper than what the going price is, just to get rid of it before the next billing cycle. Now. The boots I put up I bought 4 months ago for 30,000gil. The economy in FFXI is SO screwed up right now, the same boots are now going for anywhere between 75,000 and 85,000. Mind you, these are lower lvl (lvl 32) boots. IMHO no newb should have to pay almost 100,000 for a pair of boots that ALL mages are expected to wear if Elvaan.
So, I put mine up for 70k. Yes, that was still too high for my tastes, and I'd never pay that much for them....but I figure, what the heck, if it gives some newb a little break even by 10k, then I'm doing a good thing.
I log on later to see if they sold. I got several /tells of "why did you undercut the price of boots so much???"
Because it's ridiculous to charge outrageous prices for something that shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
In EQ2 the prices fluxate with supply and demand MUCH better than FFXI - at least so far- and you can be more competitive without hurting the economy. Wherein the price in FFXI is ALWAYS rising and becoming just insane, in EQ2 this system at least allows for some leeway. One night I might sell gold clusters for 3 silver. The next, there might be several on the board and I only get 1 silver, and the day after it jumps up to 5 silver...etc etc.
So yes, while it definately isn't perfect.... it's not as bad as it could be either, and at least most of us can afford our gear easily and not strain to make some cash on the side as well.
Sorry for bringing up the "other" game, but I did need something to compare the good and bad points to.
It's a bit flawed, but the only other way I can see it is like FFXI AH set up. GAH. Don't get me started on the inflation and just the....crap. It's like, to me, bazaar mode and AH mode mixed. Yes, it could have been TONS better, but it's a lot better than what I'm used to, and being able to SEE how much other players sell their goods also helps keep prices reasonable. I know this is probably not the time or place, and I do agree the merchant system is flawed, at best, but here's what happened today to me;
I log into FFXI. I'm just selling whatever I have left over and giving my gil to a friend, so I'm putting up what I have for a bit cheaper than what the going price is, just to get rid of it before the next billing cycle. Now. The boots I put up I bought 4 months ago for 30,000gil. The economy in FFXI is SO screwed up right now, the same boots are now going for anywhere between 75,000 and 85,000. Mind you, these are lower lvl (lvl 32) boots. IMHO no newb should have to pay almost 100,000 for a pair of boots that ALL mages are expected to wear if Elvaan.
So, I put mine up for 70k. Yes, that was still too high for my tastes, and I'd never pay that much for them....but I figure, what the heck, if it gives some newb a little break even by 10k, then I'm doing a good thing.
I log on later to see if they sold. I got several /tells of "why did you undercut the price of boots so much???"
Because it's ridiculous to charge outrageous prices for something that shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
In EQ2 the prices fluxate with supply and demand MUCH better than FFXI - at least so far- and you can be more competitive without hurting the economy. Wherein the price in FFXI is ALWAYS rising and becoming just insane, in EQ2 this system at least allows for some leeway. One night I might sell gold clusters for 3 silver. The next, there might be several on the board and I only get 1 silver, and the day after it jumps up to 5 silver...etc etc.
So yes, while it definately isn't perfect.... it's not as bad as it could be either, and at least most of us can afford our gear easily and not strain to make some cash on the side as well.
Sorry for bringing up the "other" game, but I did need something to compare the good and bad points to.
The EQ2 merchant system stinks plain and simple. If they want to control item availability it would be as simple as setting up an auction house type system where they can limit the amount of items for sale and the amount of time it stays on sale. This system is so heavily in favor of merchant boxing thats its almost unbelieveable to have made it past beta. Also this system of only online vending is out of date. You wouldn't expect this type of crud from stuff released in last generation's MMORPG crop(and few enough of them did it..). It should be unthinkable to put it in whats supposed to be the "next step in MMORPG evolution". Hell, the merchant system is only slightly better than Ragarok Online's selling system and its 2d and old as dirt! Most people with either sleep vend, join a guild that boxes a merchant, or box their own merchant. Its amusing that none of those solutions, (which allows 8+ hrs of vending for the sleep vendors, and unlimited vending for the boxers, patch willing) fit in with the "Vision" of limiting buyable items. Once player level averages hit the 30s and people have more spending money, we'll be seeing the same thing of everything available all the time. Lets face it, no one is going to sacrifice adventure/tradeskill time to sell. Its insane to even think that.
And to be truthful, FFXI's system is tons better than eq2. The fastest million i've ever made was getting a few friends together and buying all of one item thats in demand. Then reselling it for an inflated price. Takes a little startup capital, but you'll increase your cash by as much as 20%~50% in one weekend. Even NM camping won't come close. Instant inflation, but you'll come out like a bandit. Prices take forever to come down, and if EQ2 system actually manages to do what the devs hope it will(which it prolly won't), it'll be even easier. The lower the supply, the easier it'll be to corner to the market. Large guilds will be insanely rich, boxers will be middle class, sleep vendors will barely get by, and those who don't box or sleep vend will play for a month or two, then quit cause they can't afford anything.
crappiest
idea
ever
And to be truthful, FFXI's system is tons better than eq2. The fastest million i've ever made was getting a few friends together and buying all of one item thats in demand. Then reselling it for an inflated price. Takes a little startup capital, but you'll increase your cash by as much as 20%~50% in one weekend. Even NM camping won't come close. Instant inflation, but you'll come out like a bandit. Prices take forever to come down, and if EQ2 system actually manages to do what the devs hope it will(which it prolly won't), it'll be even easier. The lower the supply, the easier it'll be to corner to the market. Large guilds will be insanely rich, boxers will be middle class, sleep vendors will barely get by, and those who don't box or sleep vend will play for a month or two, then quit cause they can't afford anything.
crappiest
idea
ever
Uhm, I've already done the buy and re-sell on EQ2 myself. So it works on this game as well.
But I NEVER charge high high prices for something that shouldn't be hard to afford. That's my moral standard.
And I still make a good 2 or 3 gold a night just from 2 hours of harvesting.
I hated FFXI's AH system. It stank, and it broke a lot of people that didn't have 10 hours a day to farm or camp NM's, people get way too greedy way too fast on that system. Example mentioned above. You talk about boxing in the market? FFXI had PLENTY of that. You just made a perfect example. Buying cheap items up...then selling them for high prices. Gil sellers boxed the economy as well. Also, you could never SEE how much an item was going for, you had to guess at it, and therefore it was MUCH easier to over charge for things, because the Price History....lately on FFXI...heh, notice a trend? It jumps by leaps and bounds from 10k to 40k to 75k.
I'm sorry, from my standpoint, I will always try to give people buying from me a fair price. I'm doing fine so far by keeping my prices fair, and I'm not hard up for cash, no I'm not insanely rich... but I don't play a game to get rich and have all "uber" gear. I play it to have fun, if I can afford to have fun with what gold I have, then it's good enough for me, and I refuse to make someone else's game miserable by over-charging and making them spend hours trying to raise money to afford what shouldn't be hard to afford.
Yes, I'm just full of old fashioned morals and values, sickening isn't it? ;) Gah, ok, I realize I shouldn't have ever even started to open that can of worms. I'll shut up now and just agree to disagree, and I'll try really really hard not to mention that "other" game anymore >_< gets me all flustered
Edited, Sat Dec 11 18:26:02 2004 by Ivven
Edited, Sat Dec 11 20:45:53 2004 by Ivven
But I NEVER charge high high prices for something that shouldn't be hard to afford. That's my moral standard.
And I still make a good 2 or 3 gold a night just from 2 hours of harvesting.
I hated FFXI's AH system. It stank, and it broke a lot of people that didn't have 10 hours a day to farm or camp NM's, people get way too greedy way too fast on that system. Example mentioned above. You talk about boxing in the market? FFXI had PLENTY of that. You just made a perfect example. Buying cheap items up...then selling them for high prices. Gil sellers boxed the economy as well. Also, you could never SEE how much an item was going for, you had to guess at it, and therefore it was MUCH easier to over charge for things, because the Price History....lately on FFXI...heh, notice a trend? It jumps by leaps and bounds from 10k to 40k to 75k.
I'm sorry, from my standpoint, I will always try to give people buying from me a fair price. I'm doing fine so far by keeping my prices fair, and I'm not hard up for cash, no I'm not insanely rich... but I don't play a game to get rich and have all "uber" gear. I play it to have fun, if I can afford to have fun with what gold I have, then it's good enough for me, and I refuse to make someone else's game miserable by over-charging and making them spend hours trying to raise money to afford what shouldn't be hard to afford.
Yes, I'm just full of old fashioned morals and values, sickening isn't it? ;) Gah, ok, I realize I shouldn't have ever even started to open that can of worms. I'll shut up now and just agree to disagree, and I'll try really really hard not to mention that "other" game anymore >_< gets me all flustered
Edited, Sat Dec 11 18:26:02 2004 by Ivven
Edited, Sat Dec 11 20:45:53 2004 by Ivven
2 posts
"Nothing is perfect".
Quite a phrase, yes? Although the auction system of FFXI and Merchant systems of EQ2 and other MMO games aren't perfect, they had its share of time trying to create an Online Market in these Economically-challenged environments of MMO games. I, personally, liked the FFXI Auction House system as it successfully created an Online Economy, even if it was crooked by inflation; you could leave your game and turn off your computer while your stuff sold to other players. That by itself is a huge advantage that EQ2 does not have. EQ2 would benefit with this kind of system, and I don't think market prices would be inflated. They would remain the same for the most part. As far as buying and reselling items for higher value to inflate market prices, the EQ2 Dev team should have concentrated on fixing the Merchant system as a whole instead of fixing the Crafted Items reselling to NPC Merchants deal. I bought a Red Glass Coin of Erudin for 2 Silver and resold it within 12 hours for 85 Silver. There's nothing wrong with that IMO ;). It's just the loss of the previous seller.
Whatever they do, they need to re-do the Merchant system of EQ2 to make it more proficient and more usable. It wouldn't harm the economy.
Quite a phrase, yes? Although the auction system of FFXI and Merchant systems of EQ2 and other MMO games aren't perfect, they had its share of time trying to create an Online Market in these Economically-challenged environments of MMO games. I, personally, liked the FFXI Auction House system as it successfully created an Online Economy, even if it was crooked by inflation; you could leave your game and turn off your computer while your stuff sold to other players. That by itself is a huge advantage that EQ2 does not have. EQ2 would benefit with this kind of system, and I don't think market prices would be inflated. They would remain the same for the most part. As far as buying and reselling items for higher value to inflate market prices, the EQ2 Dev team should have concentrated on fixing the Merchant system as a whole instead of fixing the Crafted Items reselling to NPC Merchants deal. I bought a Red Glass Coin of Erudin for 2 Silver and resold it within 12 hours for 85 Silver. There's nothing wrong with that IMO ;). It's just the loss of the previous seller.
Whatever they do, they need to re-do the Merchant system of EQ2 to make it more proficient and more usable. It wouldn't harm the economy.
I agree Lich. It could be better, they should look at the mistakes of the other MMORPG's economy and try to keep it in mind while building on this one. We don't want to see a repeat of L2 or FFXI, with prices sky high and game money sellers dominating the economy.
But, we have to also remember this game is still a newborn. There's LOTS of time to work on things. This is not the end product yet, it takes years for a game this large and in depth to ripen into a fully working "living" online world. So that's why I'm reluctant to condemn it at this point. So far, I can afford everything I need and make money when I have to, that's all I ask at this level. It may or may not change, it's a "wait and see" thing.
But, we have to also remember this game is still a newborn. There's LOTS of time to work on things. This is not the end product yet, it takes years for a game this large and in depth to ripen into a fully working "living" online world. So that's why I'm reluctant to condemn it at this point. So far, I can afford everything I need and make money when I have to, that's all I ask at this level. It may or may not change, it's a "wait and see" thing.
The central problem as I'm seeing it is that, once again, casual players are being marginalized in favor of people who can two-box the game- one toon to adventure and harvest and a second computer running a merchant-only (or merchant/artisan) toon. The result is that those people able to have their second character ingame 24/7 will get rich while the rest of us- who might well offer goods at better prices- will sit on tons of harvested stuff, selling it only on those rare cases where a person who needs what we have catches us A) online and B) selling.
Sour grapes? Maybe....but with coin so damn tight at this point, I'd love to unload some of the 15-20 stacks of tier 2 harvested items that I have. I set my prices about 10% lower than the lowest price I see on a broker but if I'm selling I'm not out adventuring. I don't have a second system, two accounts and loads of free time. I don't mind lagging behind the minimaxers and powergamers- in fact I'm rather used to that- but I do mind being intentionally trivialized.
I wish I knew where I read the quote by the SoE dev. It really showed just how slight this person's grasp of reality (OK...virtual reality) is when he says that THIS system is more conducive to getting out and adventuring than a system with a personal merchant would be.
Sour grapes? Maybe....but with coin so damn tight at this point, I'd love to unload some of the 15-20 stacks of tier 2 harvested items that I have. I set my prices about 10% lower than the lowest price I see on a broker but if I'm selling I'm not out adventuring. I don't have a second system, two accounts and loads of free time. I don't mind lagging behind the minimaxers and powergamers- in fact I'm rather used to that- but I do mind being intentionally trivialized.
I wish I knew where I read the quote by the SoE dev. It really showed just how slight this person's grasp of reality (OK...virtual reality) is when he says that THIS system is more conducive to getting out and adventuring than a system with a personal merchant would be.
46 posts
Aye, this appears to be a rough idea that went to code with out being fine tuned. I don't mind that I have to travel the city to go to someone's room to buy something but having to tie up your computer or character while you sell is nuts.
From my understanding, WoW has a pretty good process. It appears to work like Ebay. You can list items for auction and list a 'buy now' price. You have a mailbox and if you win the bid on an item the item is automatically sent to your mailbox and you can pick it up whenever. Also, I hear that you can send gear to other players this way too even if they are not online.
Not sure on how it all works. A friend of mine who chose wow while I went to eq2 told me.
From my understanding, WoW has a pretty good process. It appears to work like Ebay. You can list items for auction and list a 'buy now' price. You have a mailbox and if you win the bid on an item the item is automatically sent to your mailbox and you can pick it up whenever. Also, I hear that you can send gear to other players this way too even if they are not online.
Not sure on how it all works. A friend of mine who chose wow while I went to eq2 told me.
30 posts
Quote:
And to be truthful, FFXI's system is tons better than eq2. The fastest million i've ever made was getting a few friends together and buying all of one item thats in demand. Then reselling it for an inflated price. Takes a little startup capital, but you'll increase your cash by as much as 20%~50% in one weekend.
Yeah and crap like this is exactly what ruining the economy in FFXI. It's also extremely selfish, doing stuff for your own gain at the expense of others was, unfortunatley, one theme that was just too prevalent for me to continue with it. Also the AH system was horrible. Since you couldn't see the price on items you could end up paying thousands more than what the item was selling for. Also, if you prefferred to buy from a certain person you couldn't do that. Finally, only being able to put 7 items up at a time, and having to pay extra money for a mule to get more selling slots, is just stupid, especially at higher levels when items take a couple days to sell and you have about 20 items that need selling.
I'm level 22 in EQ2. I've saved up about 20 gold so far and thats more than enough for the few expenses I have. I've also only had to leave merchant up overnight twice to obtain this. If leaving your computer on over-night is too much of a hassle than there is two options I can think of.
A. /auction your items off. This way you can group/quest/whatever your heart desires and sell at the same time.
B. Sell your items to NPC merchants. While you will not make as much money selling to other players, you can still make a decent profit this way.
But whatever you do, please stop whining. Play the game as it is, not as you wish it was. If it's that much of a problem to you then stop playing.
I think if they put Auction House in EQ 2, many people will put a lot of grabages in there for sell than log off instead of go out advanture/questing. Many people did that in EQ 1 even thought there were no Auction House.
SoE spent more than 3 years( I think ) to develop this awesome game of couse they hope players can fully explore every zones and every quest. they dont want players just log on, farm money items, sell them, than log off.
SoE spent more than 3 years( I think ) to develop this awesome game of couse they hope players can fully explore every zones and every quest. they dont want players just log on, farm money items, sell them, than log off.
"SoE spent more than 3 years( I think ) to develop this awesome game of couse they hope players can fully explore every zones and every quest. they dont want players just log on, farm money items, sell them, than log off."
But how can I explore if I have to stay in my frikkin house staring at the walls to sell what I've found while adventuring?
People ARE logging on, farming money items and selling them- but they can't log off and do so. They're still getting comparatively rich using the market but they do have to work a bit harder to do so. It's the people who can't leave their systems on all night or don't have multiple computers and accounts or who actually do want to go out and explore a bit that are being shut out of the process. Really, that's the only difference between the two systems and I really can't see where EQ2 is the better for that one difference.
Also, I typically sell what armor/weapons I find to NPC merchants but, considering the poor drop rate of Adept scrolls (at least while soloing), there's no way I'd sell one to an NPC merchant at the prices they want to pay (75cp for an Adept? Yeah, right).
But how can I explore if I have to stay in my frikkin house staring at the walls to sell what I've found while adventuring?
People ARE logging on, farming money items and selling them- but they can't log off and do so. They're still getting comparatively rich using the market but they do have to work a bit harder to do so. It's the people who can't leave their systems on all night or don't have multiple computers and accounts or who actually do want to go out and explore a bit that are being shut out of the process. Really, that's the only difference between the two systems and I really can't see where EQ2 is the better for that one difference.
Also, I typically sell what armor/weapons I find to NPC merchants but, considering the poor drop rate of Adept scrolls (at least while soloing), there's no way I'd sell one to an NPC merchant at the prices they want to pay (75cp for an Adept? Yeah, right).
From the Gamespy PC website. I couldn't have said it better myself.
"EverQuest II: EQII takes a hit here, unfortunately. There is a working market system, but unlike the enlightened ways in which games like Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft have handled this, it requires way too much effort on the part of players to actually utilize. Basically, in order to have your wares appear on the market listings, you have to purchase a bulletin board from an NPC vendor, place it on your house, and then remain at home till stuff sells (if it ever does). It's very harsh, and for many players, the only recourse is to remain logged in to the game overnight to hawk their wares. Needless to say, stuff like server disconnects, Internet issues, and the like could make all that hard work go down the tubes. Crafters, especially, get hit hard by this. SOE needs to wake up, and implement an auction house system. We as players deserve at least a little convenience, and this is one of the more meaningful areas in which to implement it. "
"EverQuest II: EQII takes a hit here, unfortunately. There is a working market system, but unlike the enlightened ways in which games like Final Fantasy XI and World of Warcraft have handled this, it requires way too much effort on the part of players to actually utilize. Basically, in order to have your wares appear on the market listings, you have to purchase a bulletin board from an NPC vendor, place it on your house, and then remain at home till stuff sells (if it ever does). It's very harsh, and for many players, the only recourse is to remain logged in to the game overnight to hawk their wares. Needless to say, stuff like server disconnects, Internet issues, and the like could make all that hard work go down the tubes. Crafters, especially, get hit hard by this. SOE needs to wake up, and implement an auction house system. We as players deserve at least a little convenience, and this is one of the more meaningful areas in which to implement it. "
30 posts
This really shouldn't come as a suprise to anyone. It's basically the same system as in the first EQ and people got by just fine with that. Like I said earlier, if you don't want to leave your computer on overnight, which really baffles me as to why people make such a fuss about doing so, then you can just /auction your items off while you are doing whatever.
To be quite honest, I think you all should be HAPPY with this system. Yes, you have to leave your computer on overnight. Boo-hoo.
Guess what? In the first EQ, you had to travel to the bazaar, which was super-laggy, even with the best computers. It was many zones away from where anything dropped that was actually worth buying. It would literally take upwards of half an hour REAL TIME to run to the bazaar, sometimes. And there was no way of getting there faster, unless you were a druid. Now you get to port directly to the zone that your house is in. (Unless you bought a different hourse...) There was a maximum number of people who could be on merchant mode at one time.
Gee, isn't this new system MUCH better than that?
Why would you think that SOE would completely change the EQ bazaar system? Is this not supposed to be the same world? (In case you dont know, it is...)
Anyway, just my two cents. Consider how bad it USED to be, and you will see that it really isnt that bad that you have to leave your poor, overworked computer on overnight...
Besides, nobody ever said you HAD to sell stuff in the bazaar. That is your choice. YOu COULD sell all of your stuff to merchants...
Guess what? In the first EQ, you had to travel to the bazaar, which was super-laggy, even with the best computers. It was many zones away from where anything dropped that was actually worth buying. It would literally take upwards of half an hour REAL TIME to run to the bazaar, sometimes. And there was no way of getting there faster, unless you were a druid. Now you get to port directly to the zone that your house is in. (Unless you bought a different hourse...) There was a maximum number of people who could be on merchant mode at one time.
Gee, isn't this new system MUCH better than that?
Why would you think that SOE would completely change the EQ bazaar system? Is this not supposed to be the same world? (In case you dont know, it is...)
Anyway, just my two cents. Consider how bad it USED to be, and you will see that it really isnt that bad that you have to leave your poor, overworked computer on overnight...
Besides, nobody ever said you HAD to sell stuff in the bazaar. That is your choice. YOu COULD sell all of your stuff to merchants...
Quote:
To be quite honest, I think you all should be HAPPY with this system. Yes, you have to leave your computer on overnight. Boo-hoo.
So because EQ's system sucked, its okay for this one to suck less? I really don't like that logic and if that's the designers' philosophy EQ2 won't turn out so good...
There are certain things that are expected from contemporary MMORPGs. One is a way to sell things while offline. (Another is a good macro system but that's another rant.)
The reason FFXI's economy was so inflated isn't because of the Auction House system, it was because the game is three or so years old, and after that time the economy is going to be pretty bad if you arn't already at the upper echilon of society. In three years EQ2's economy will be just as poor for new players (even with the money sinks).
So they have to add a single Zone to both Qeynos and Freeport as a Bazaar. Although this is Sony we're talking about, that shouldn't prove to be too difficult a task.
But maybe it's not even necessary to do that.
Look again at the DAoC system and how it would fit in here. We already have personal housing (I love my tenement- being a rat, I'm right at home in flith and squalor). We have a personal merchant of sorts- our marketplace Signboard. We have Market Explorers- Brokers. The only changes necessary would be to have the Signboard actually have some inventory space so you could offload what you want to sell into it and that the singboard be considered for all intents as you being online all the time so that you can sell whether you are actually ingame or not. Bingo- totally workable system that gives all players a chance to sell their stuff.
Why should we have to leave our computers on all night to sell? What a stupid concept! SoE hasn't even come close to justifying it. Instead, they say it somehow adds to the 'adventuring experience'. Exactly how does logging into the game, going to your room, setting up your prices, opening your store and then leaving the computer on while you go to bed 'adding to the adventuring experience'? Am I missing something here?
But maybe it's not even necessary to do that.
Look again at the DAoC system and how it would fit in here. We already have personal housing (I love my tenement- being a rat, I'm right at home in flith and squalor). We have a personal merchant of sorts- our marketplace Signboard. We have Market Explorers- Brokers. The only changes necessary would be to have the Signboard actually have some inventory space so you could offload what you want to sell into it and that the singboard be considered for all intents as you being online all the time so that you can sell whether you are actually ingame or not. Bingo- totally workable system that gives all players a chance to sell their stuff.
Why should we have to leave our computers on all night to sell? What a stupid concept! SoE hasn't even come close to justifying it. Instead, they say it somehow adds to the 'adventuring experience'. Exactly how does logging into the game, going to your room, setting up your prices, opening your store and then leaving the computer on while you go to bed 'adding to the adventuring experience'? Am I missing something here?
30 posts
Quote:
So because EQ's system sucked, its okay for this one to suck less? I really don't like that logic and if that's the designers' philosophy EQ2 won't turn out so good...
Right...well considering EQ most certainly the game that put MMORPG's on the map, considering its been running for what..6 years and still has an abundant amount of subscriber's, even if EQ2 can just "suck" a little bit less than the first one, then it will turn out fantastic.
Quote:
The reason FFXI's economy was so inflated isn't because of the Auction House system, it was because the game is three or so years old, and after that time the economy is going to be pretty bad if you arn't already at the upper echilon of society.
Well FFXI has only been available in the US for roughly a year, and about two years in Japan..so either way you look at it your off on that. Also, as for the whole "inflated because of time" thing i'll use an example from EQ... If anyone remembers, around when Kunark and Velious came out Short Sword of the Ykesha was THE uber weapon, sold for about 1500plat or so(on Tunare server atleast), expansions came out, better weapons were discovered, now it goes for 200plat, if that. Now as anyone with a 2nd grade education or higher can see, the price went down, as it should. And the inflation in 11 was, in a large part, the fault of AH...or rather selfish fools that used it.
Quote:
Why should we have to leave our computers on all night to sell? What a stupid concept! SoE hasn't even come close to justifying it. Instead, they say it somehow adds to the 'adventuring experience'. Exactly how does logging into the game, going to your room, setting up your prices, opening your store and then leaving the computer on while you go to bed 'adding to the adventuring experience'? Am I missing something here?
You should have to leave your computer on because that is currently the way the game is set up. First the game has been out for a month, you guys are being WAY too critical WAY too early. Secondly, I rather enjoy it this way. I like my games to be minorly realistic with stuff like this, and pawning the items yourself seems more realistic than "renting" someone to sell the items unsupervised in your house, with your belongings etc, same idea with the bulliten board selling things for you, except a piece of wood acting as a merchant is even more unbelievable.
Now, could the merchant system be better? Your damn right it could. But is it satisfactory as it is? For the majority of people that would like to play the game instead of whining about its flaws, the answer is yes.
Ok, let me put out this disclaimer before I put down what I wanted to say: I don't play EQ2 and yes, I am an EQ1 fanboi. I come here to see what's up in the world of EQ2. I'm still sitting on the fence as to wether or not to spend my money on it. That being said...
I've noticed a common trend by the posters in this thread. The former EQ1 players (or current, whatever the case) generally don't have a problem with the bazaar, while the former "other game" players think it's the worse system in the MMO world. After talking to a lot of friends that do play the "other games" and reading posts in these forums, I think I know why the players from the "other games" are really upset.
I think most of them are really upset because it's not what they knew. Which is exactly why the former EQ crowd doesn't mind it, it's pretty similar to what they knew.
And for people complaining about having to be online, keep in mind that if you have to be online to trade, it's easier for the powers-that-be to keep an eye on the goings-on of the market. That means it's easier for GM's to take action if someone is doing something shady. There was a very short period on EQ1 where some shady companies had scripts running in the bazaar to cause inflation, but because they had to be online to do it, the GM's were able to catch them in the act and take the appropriate actions to stop it. Other then that short lived experience, I have never heard of anyone exploiting the bazaar. (Ok, there are the pp sellers that will sell a pod of water for 5k, and use the bazaar as the pp delivery vehicle, but that's going to be possible with any system.)
This is the system that EQ1 uses. EQ1 has been around for 5+ years. We don't suffer from inflation. We DO suffer from mudflation though. Everything is cheap. You have level 10 toons running around in gear that only drops in zones meant for toons 55+. But this massive twinking will be avoided with the way gear works in EQ2 (again, from what I've read). Of course, the downside to that is you're going to have massive level restricted mudflation, but that's a whole different topic.
Anyway, just a few thoughts from an outside perspective. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish...
I've noticed a common trend by the posters in this thread. The former EQ1 players (or current, whatever the case) generally don't have a problem with the bazaar, while the former "other game" players think it's the worse system in the MMO world. After talking to a lot of friends that do play the "other games" and reading posts in these forums, I think I know why the players from the "other games" are really upset.
I think most of them are really upset because it's not what they knew. Which is exactly why the former EQ crowd doesn't mind it, it's pretty similar to what they knew.
And for people complaining about having to be online, keep in mind that if you have to be online to trade, it's easier for the powers-that-be to keep an eye on the goings-on of the market. That means it's easier for GM's to take action if someone is doing something shady. There was a very short period on EQ1 where some shady companies had scripts running in the bazaar to cause inflation, but because they had to be online to do it, the GM's were able to catch them in the act and take the appropriate actions to stop it. Other then that short lived experience, I have never heard of anyone exploiting the bazaar. (Ok, there are the pp sellers that will sell a pod of water for 5k, and use the bazaar as the pp delivery vehicle, but that's going to be possible with any system.)
Quote:
The reason FFXI's economy was so inflated isn't because of the Auction House system, it was because the game is three or so years old, and after that time the economy is going to be pretty bad if you arn't already at the upper echilon of society. In three years EQ2's economy will be just as poor for new players (even with the money sinks).
This is the system that EQ1 uses. EQ1 has been around for 5+ years. We don't suffer from inflation. We DO suffer from mudflation though. Everything is cheap. You have level 10 toons running around in gear that only drops in zones meant for toons 55+. But this massive twinking will be avoided with the way gear works in EQ2 (again, from what I've read). Of course, the downside to that is you're going to have massive level restricted mudflation, but that's a whole different topic.
Anyway, just a few thoughts from an outside perspective. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish...
I'm not sure that what I'm doing is considered 'whining' but I'll leave that to others to judge I guess.
As to whether it is a satisfactory system or not, it depends on which side of the equation you're on. If you're in a position where you can leave your computer on all night to sell, then obviously you're happy about it. Why? Because you're making money. If you're not in a position to leave your computer on all night to sell, then you're not happy with it. Why? Because, while you have the exact same thing the other person has, you are denied the opportunity to sell it so you're NOT making money. If you can benefit from the system, you're happy; if you cannot, you are not.
If you want things a bit more realistic, have players be able to 'rent' NPCs to hawk their items whether the actual player is online or not. If the person is online, have the Hawker charge a 5% comission to sell the item (removes money from the game). if the person isn't online, have the Hawker charge a 15% comission to sell the item (penalizes the player for not being online and removes coin from the game). Use any percentages you wish but PLEASE allow some mechanism by which players don't have to be logged in to sell- not only logged in but standing in their apartment doing nothing.
As to whether it is a satisfactory system or not, it depends on which side of the equation you're on. If you're in a position where you can leave your computer on all night to sell, then obviously you're happy about it. Why? Because you're making money. If you're not in a position to leave your computer on all night to sell, then you're not happy with it. Why? Because, while you have the exact same thing the other person has, you are denied the opportunity to sell it so you're NOT making money. If you can benefit from the system, you're happy; if you cannot, you are not.
If you want things a bit more realistic, have players be able to 'rent' NPCs to hawk their items whether the actual player is online or not. If the person is online, have the Hawker charge a 5% comission to sell the item (removes money from the game). if the person isn't online, have the Hawker charge a 15% comission to sell the item (penalizes the player for not being online and removes coin from the game). Use any percentages you wish but PLEASE allow some mechanism by which players don't have to be logged in to sell- not only logged in but standing in their apartment doing nothing.
Adiemus wrote:
So they have to add a single Zone to both Qeynos and Freeport as a Bazaar. Although this is Sony we're talking about, that shouldn't prove to be too difficult a task.
Ummm, no. You missed my point. I was saying that NOT having to go to the bazaar is a big plus. If they were to add the bazaar, and let you sell there, or sell in your house, I would gladly still pay the 5 silver per week, and sell out of my house. If for nothing else than to avoid the lag of having 5milliom people in the same zone... EGADS that sucked!
Adiemus wrote:
As to whether it is a satisfactory system or not, it depends on which side of the equation you're on. If you're in a position where you can leave your computer on all night to sell, then obviously you're happy about it. Why? Because you're making money. If you're not in a position to leave your computer on all night to sell, then you're not happy with it. Why? Because, while you have the exact same thing the other person has, you are denied the opportunity to sell it so you're NOT making money. If you can benefit from the system, you're happy; if you cannot, you are not.
OK, this is what I dont understand... How would you be in a position where you CANNOT leave your computer on overnight?
If you computer is good enough to run EQ2, then you have a pretty good computer, so that is not the issue.
If you are using dial-up to sonnect to EQ2, its OVERNIGHT! How many calls do you usually get while you are sleeping? (For me, its 0...)
What reason does this leave for you not to be able to leave the computer on overnight, except that you want to complain about the system?
aubsp-
I see your first point now and I agree. Letting you sell out of your house is what I'm suggesting. That's the way it was in DAoC and it worked excellently. Although I would point out that, if you have a system beefy enough to run EQ2, chances are that you'd have alot less lag in a Bazaar setting than you might expect. I guess it would depend on how graphically intensive SoE made the zone. The only place I've run into problems so far is in Fallen Gate and that was with 100+ in the zone.
I can't leave my computer on because I need it for work. I have to file tons of reports online and even with broadband some of the file transfers would choke a camel. I simply cannot download or upload my work files while running EQ2 in the background. Plus, being a one-computer family, my wife and daughter do occasionally want to use it. Since it's much more important to earn real money than it is to earn virtual money, I know which one is going to take preceedence.
My beef is that, if SoE had implemented a player-friendly system, I wouldn't be put into the postion of having to choose- not that it's any choice really. If I'm relegated to second-class playing due to my own decisions and circumstances, that's one thing. But to be left out because of a poor design decision when there was a reasonable and better solution available is another.
I see your first point now and I agree. Letting you sell out of your house is what I'm suggesting. That's the way it was in DAoC and it worked excellently. Although I would point out that, if you have a system beefy enough to run EQ2, chances are that you'd have alot less lag in a Bazaar setting than you might expect. I guess it would depend on how graphically intensive SoE made the zone. The only place I've run into problems so far is in Fallen Gate and that was with 100+ in the zone.
I can't leave my computer on because I need it for work. I have to file tons of reports online and even with broadband some of the file transfers would choke a camel. I simply cannot download or upload my work files while running EQ2 in the background. Plus, being a one-computer family, my wife and daughter do occasionally want to use it. Since it's much more important to earn real money than it is to earn virtual money, I know which one is going to take preceedence.
My beef is that, if SoE had implemented a player-friendly system, I wouldn't be put into the postion of having to choose- not that it's any choice really. If I'm relegated to second-class playing due to my own decisions and circumstances, that's one thing. But to be left out because of a poor design decision when there was a reasonable and better solution available is another.
7 posts
Hello all, haven't played EQ2 yet, been on the fence about the whole thing.. Played EQ for 4 Years (Or was it 3? - Started just after Kunark release, quit just before OoW) and Now Play FFXI.
Wanted to toss my 2 cents into this particular discussion, being someone who throoughly used EQ1's trading and bazaar system, and am currently using FFXI's.
Cent #1:
The option the auction house offers of not having to be online to sell things is not (at least as far as i can tell) really going to affect how people monopolize the in game economy to become "uber sellers". Do you really believe requiring someone to be online to sell or not, is going to affect price gouging? As if for some reason their character being online makes it more difficult to sell, and therefore they will not hike their prices? I seriously doubt it. Wanting a system that allows players to log off and still sell their wares would be more of a convenience for those players who are actually playing the game to have fun and exprience what Norrath has become (or been shaped into by the hands of the developers) rather than trying to raise money to buy that super expensive piece of equipment by spending their entire time in merchant mode.
Cent #2:
It is entirely possible to implement both systems (FFXI does) You can put things up for auction as well as go into merchant mode to sell things directly off your person (even while exp grinding). This would give a player the option to create an actual customer base, allowing for /auctioning, as well as being able to sell the wares. If for some reason they need to log off, or if they get disconnected while sleeping at least the items they put up at the auction house would still be out there for sale. This would give players a lot of options for how they want to sell the things they've accumulated.
Also, they can give quantity discounts to players who repeatedly come to them for consumables they may be producing (a fairly common occurance in FFXI) Building customer loyalty, so to speak. When they go out to exp grind, they can toss their items up at the Auction House (or equivalent) And if a loyal customer comes looking for them while they are out exp grinding, they can simply inform they are not there, and can either wait, or snag them from the Auction House. Opening both doors i think would be a wise decision on SoE's part. I Hope they implement something like this so the players will have the option.
Edit - Sig, spelling, and punctuation.
Edited, Wed Dec 15 01:29:23 2004 by Surulaia
Wanted to toss my 2 cents into this particular discussion, being someone who throoughly used EQ1's trading and bazaar system, and am currently using FFXI's.
Cent #1:
The option the auction house offers of not having to be online to sell things is not (at least as far as i can tell) really going to affect how people monopolize the in game economy to become "uber sellers". Do you really believe requiring someone to be online to sell or not, is going to affect price gouging? As if for some reason their character being online makes it more difficult to sell, and therefore they will not hike their prices? I seriously doubt it. Wanting a system that allows players to log off and still sell their wares would be more of a convenience for those players who are actually playing the game to have fun and exprience what Norrath has become (or been shaped into by the hands of the developers) rather than trying to raise money to buy that super expensive piece of equipment by spending their entire time in merchant mode.
Cent #2:
It is entirely possible to implement both systems (FFXI does) You can put things up for auction as well as go into merchant mode to sell things directly off your person (even while exp grinding). This would give a player the option to create an actual customer base, allowing for /auctioning, as well as being able to sell the wares. If for some reason they need to log off, or if they get disconnected while sleeping at least the items they put up at the auction house would still be out there for sale. This would give players a lot of options for how they want to sell the things they've accumulated.
Also, they can give quantity discounts to players who repeatedly come to them for consumables they may be producing (a fairly common occurance in FFXI) Building customer loyalty, so to speak. When they go out to exp grind, they can toss their items up at the Auction House (or equivalent) And if a loyal customer comes looking for them while they are out exp grinding, they can simply inform they are not there, and can either wait, or snag them from the Auction House. Opening both doors i think would be a wise decision on SoE's part. I Hope they implement something like this so the players will have the option.
Edit - Sig, spelling, and punctuation.
Edited, Wed Dec 15 01:29:23 2004 by Surulaia
Some people have to share their computer. Yes, not everyone can afford their own.
Some are on a budget and would rather not waste any extra money just to sell items in game. Yes, some people dont have tons of money and are stretched thin as is.
Most people (who are on dial-up) would rather not tie up the line in case of, and there is the chance, of an urgent call about any number of things be it about a family member getting injured or killed, a call from their job, etc.
Think before you speak. Your view is to narrow minded.
Some are on a budget and would rather not waste any extra money just to sell items in game. Yes, some people dont have tons of money and are stretched thin as is.
Most people (who are on dial-up) would rather not tie up the line in case of, and there is the chance, of an urgent call about any number of things be it about a family member getting injured or killed, a call from their job, etc.
Think before you speak. Your view is to narrow minded.
The system the game has now lends itself to price-gouging far more than a system in which you can sell offline because, as it is now, fewer people are able to sell. Fewer sellers means higher prices. I'm not going to point a finger at anyone but, if that's the reason people object to a real player-merchant system, then do us a favor and come right out and say it.
Revamping the system so that everyone can sell their wares whether they are online or not would mean more stuff being available and at cheaper prices. The money supply might be increased a bit but it'd be because more pople would have coin rather than a select few. There really are no disadvantages to my suggestion- at least none that anyone has pointed out.
Revamping the system so that everyone can sell their wares whether they are online or not would mean more stuff being available and at cheaper prices. The money supply might be increased a bit but it'd be because more pople would have coin rather than a select few. There really are no disadvantages to my suggestion- at least none that anyone has pointed out.
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