This is a hot topic, and perticularly on the official EQ2 forums, but since i cant post there i figured i would communicate my opinion here :P
Now, "Need before Greed" is a very sticky topic, because are the Needy also Greedy? or are the Rich being Greedy? or semi rich ect, well they way i usually play, is let everyone play by there own moral code, i try not to force anyone to play by " My own personal ethics or lack of there of "
I personnally think than Need Before Greed as in if a mage item drops worth 2gp, and its lets say caster only but it can be sold, everyone has a fair amount to gain from it, through selling, using, gift to another friend, ect
Now if a NO TRADE item drops i would say only if you can use it, or not have a better version of it already due to its lack of value in the market as well as a non refundable loot ect..
Also i know this hasnt effected EQ2, but it was a hot topic effect in EQ 1, now what happens if your in a group an item drops lets say caster only... 3 casters in the group, and 2 have need of the item for stat value and the "clicky" value but the 3rd only would use the item for "clicky value" due to having better stat value items? Well i would say if it was no drop, its every casters fair game due to weather you are Lvl 65 pimped out mage with 5000+ hp or just 65 with 2200 HP you always strive to make yourself better than what you currently are..
Anyway thats just a gnomes view on that current topic, stay tuned for more! :P GNOMEPOWER!
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This is a much tougher issue in EQ2 because there is no real way of knowing if you will be able to use something. In EQ the classes/races were listed on the item along with any required level and you could see at a glance if it was usable by any given character.
I am constantly getting things which are red to me but I can use in a level or two. Sometimes in choosing quest rewards I just have to guess if it will be wearable in a level or two.
For example heavy armour is still red to my 14 warrior. I know warriors get heavy armour because I see them wandering around looking like C3PO on a bad day.
On top of this there is no way to know if an item is red to someone. You would be dependent on people who know or claim to know - and they might have their own motives.
NBG was a very suspect thing in EQ except amongst friend or guildies. In EQ2 it must be next to impossible to determine who can or cannot benefit, let alone who is being honest about their need.
I am constantly getting things which are red to me but I can use in a level or two. Sometimes in choosing quest rewards I just have to guess if it will be wearable in a level or two.
For example heavy armour is still red to my 14 warrior. I know warriors get heavy armour because I see them wandering around looking like C3PO on a bad day.
On top of this there is no way to know if an item is red to someone. You would be dependent on people who know or claim to know - and they might have their own motives.
NBG was a very suspect thing in EQ except amongst friend or guildies. In EQ2 it must be next to impossible to determine who can or cannot benefit, let alone who is being honest about their need.
Wherever I go - there I am.
There are rule to whether something is red or not. So once you learn those rules you can tell who in your group can use something.
Lotto everything, with maybe the exception of no trade items...It's the fairest way to do it
If someone wins the lotto for something you want then make a reasonable offer...
If someone wins the lotto for something you want then make a reasonable offer...
Well, well, I think you are right, we cant impose our point of view in that matter, if a guy wants to pass/give the drop, it's cool, if he doesnt want too ( eh he might need money too and want to sell it), it's cool too.
I dont like to be pressured in giving my drop away because someone needs the item. Sometimes I give it, sometimes I dont, hubby might need it or I might want to sell it and get the silver pieces to buy something for me. I got nice gloves last time, I kept them, I could wear them.
Me giving an item really depends on how nice the person is in my party, if he has acted like an *** the whole time and takes his sweetest "voice" just to get the item "ha ha ha".
I dont like to be pressured in giving my drop away because someone needs the item. Sometimes I give it, sometimes I dont, hubby might need it or I might want to sell it and get the silver pieces to buy something for me. I got nice gloves last time, I kept them, I could wear them.
Me giving an item really depends on how nice the person is in my party, if he has acted like an *** the whole time and takes his sweetest "voice" just to get the item "ha ha ha".
Maybe Im lucky I had only seen 1 player which is "NOT" NBG in the group but the rest of the group are. I met him lastnight when we are killing faeries for AQ 6, 1 healer spell book dropped and the healer said he can use it, but this "jackass"(hes an Iksar SK) won that and the rest of the group declined. Healer ask the iksar if he can has it but the SK said "Oh seems this book can sell for good cash" than he "GATED!".
Even though 80% of the players have NBG in their mind, there are still at least 1% of the players arent. and there are no "COPS" in the game to catch those "MF"s. only thing I do is /ignore them(if they are not healers because healers are high on demand for grouping)
PS: Im on Oasis server, here are this "SIR"'s information:
Character name: Albel
Character Class: Shadowknight
Character race: Iksar
Character Level: 24(on Dec 8)
Character last saw: Nek Forest.
Remark: I heard he still need Obere for his last part of AQ6. so beware.
Even though 80% of the players have NBG in their mind, there are still at least 1% of the players arent. and there are no "COPS" in the game to catch those "MF"s. only thing I do is /ignore them(if they are not healers because healers are high on demand for grouping)
PS: Im on Oasis server, here are this "SIR"'s information:
Character name: Albel
Character Class: Shadowknight
Character race: Iksar
Character Level: 24(on Dec 8)
Character last saw: Nek Forest.
Remark: I heard he still need Obere for his last part of AQ6. so beware.
What about the other 19%? /boggle
Most parties I've been in have been NBG. I really think it's a better system for guildies and friends, but if it's not my party, it's my choice whether to stay or not.
My big problem with NBG is being able to tell if that person actually needs it. When and adept 1 version of a spell drops, I have no way of knowing if that person has already scribed the adept version or not. They could be taking it to sell.
Also, I hear a lot of people call "need" on items that aren't class specific. I generally say something at that point.
Most parties I've been in have been NBG. I really think it's a better system for guildies and friends, but if it's not my party, it's my choice whether to stay or not.
My big problem with NBG is being able to tell if that person actually needs it. When and adept 1 version of a spell drops, I have no way of knowing if that person has already scribed the adept version or not. They could be taking it to sell.
Also, I hear a lot of people call "need" on items that aren't class specific. I generally say something at that point.
Scholar
36 posts
I am a need before greed person. In one group I was in I won the lotto for a Master(yes master) Adapt for a summoner pet. There was a summoner in the group-I gave it to him with no strings attached..no questions asked. I put in lotto cuz if I win something I give it...better chances for others if there is that one person that puts in lotto-and just wants to sell.(exception for no-trade items). I just try to play nice :) He was very thankful when I gave it to him...:) the pet looked cool too-like a clay-rock guy type thing lol.
2 posts
NBG is something that should not even be brought up in a pick up group. The greedy person is the one who has a sense of entitlement when playing with strangers. The reality is that all players can benefit from the item either as someting that is sold, equipped or used on an alt. I agree with the post above; You want it, make me an offer.
Quote:
/ignore them(if they are not healers because healers are high on demand for grouping)
Man it looks very hypocrite to me... seems like in not blacklisting them you place your need before anything else...
edit... are you blisting them just because they didnt want to suit *your* need or just because they're "bad people"....
Edited, Thu Dec 9 13:02:01 2004 by GilgameshAngelic
Quote:
seems like in not blacklisting them you place your need before anything else..
first, Im not a healer, so thats NOT my need.
second, I place eveyone's need before anything else.
Quote:
are you blisting them just because they didnt want to suit *your* need or just because they're "bad people"
Again, thats not MY NEED.
I Blisting them because they didnt want to suit *everyone*'s need and I would say only "bad people" will do this.
Sure you dont ... as you said, you're not a healer, so you need them. So you dont blist them.. Come on... a little bit of honesty ..
I'm not hitting on you because you dont blist them but because you place yourself as a good player, not looking for his own needs 1st. Well yes you do, which is ok you know... come on, we know you have a dark side !
I'm not hitting on you because you dont blist them but because you place yourself as a good player, not looking for his own needs 1st. Well yes you do, which is ok you know... come on, we know you have a dark side !
Quote:
Sure you dont ... as you said, you're not a healer, so you need them. So you dont blist them.. Come on... a little bit of honesty ..
you mean I dont Blist the healer. well, I havent met any bad healer so far. but yes, everyone is bias. healer is always high on demand. of couse I will try not group with those healer with bad attitute but I would if I got no choice.
Quote:
you dont blist them but because you place yourself as a good player
I didnt mansion anything about "good player", Im just try to be friendly to eveyone I met. I truely believe there many more "good players" out there. if someone "not" friendly to me, of couse I wont be friendly to them.
Quote:
we know you have a dark side !
I born from Freeport, of couse I have a dark side.
as I said, I tried to be friendly to everyone. Money cannot overpower friendship. if someone can use any drop items that I cant use it, they can have it.
Best bet is the leader of the group makes the rules period.
The way I did it was Adepts and tradeskill drops when to ppl that needed it. and only a class they had in the group at the time of drop no alts. Second all weapons that drop quest items are fair game no NBG on those items because of their high value.
I never once had one complaint on these matters.
The way I did it was Adepts and tradeskill drops when to ppl that needed it. and only a class they had in the group at the time of drop no alts. Second all weapons that drop quest items are fair game no NBG on those items because of their high value.
I never once had one complaint on these matters.
I always believe in Need Before Greed and I always practice what I preach. Generally speaking, I decline to lotto an item that I cannot use >IF< it's magical in nature. If it's a pair of cordovan boots with no modifiers, then yes I'll lotto that for cash loot.
Wish I could say that I've had the same luck finding non-Greedies to play with. I'd guess that 80%+ of the people I've grouped with lotto anything and everything, regardless whether or not they could use it. Seeing a Crusader lotto a mage Robe is just wrong.
Also, if the lotto system were a bit fairer, I think I'd be more willing to rely upon it. All too often, Ive seen the same person win both pieces of loot when two drop simultaneousy or the same person win 6 out of 10 loots while one or two others win nothing. There needs to be some sort of exclusionary variable put into the lotto system so that, once a person wins an item, he is either totally excluded from winning until everyone else has won something or possibly just excluded from rolls for 10 minutes. If everyone contributes to a victory, then the chances for the spoils should be equal 9as equal as a RNG can be, I know) but this clearly isn't the case right now.
Wish I could say that I've had the same luck finding non-Greedies to play with. I'd guess that 80%+ of the people I've grouped with lotto anything and everything, regardless whether or not they could use it. Seeing a Crusader lotto a mage Robe is just wrong.
Also, if the lotto system were a bit fairer, I think I'd be more willing to rely upon it. All too often, Ive seen the same person win both pieces of loot when two drop simultaneousy or the same person win 6 out of 10 loots while one or two others win nothing. There needs to be some sort of exclusionary variable put into the lotto system so that, once a person wins an item, he is either totally excluded from winning until everyone else has won something or possibly just excluded from rolls for 10 minutes. If everyone contributes to a victory, then the chances for the spoils should be equal 9as equal as a RNG can be, I know) but this clearly isn't the case right now.
I do not believe in NBG with the lotto system. Let the winner of the item and the person who wants it work it out through tells.
This NBG crap that was brought over from EQ1 needs to stay in EQ1
This NBG crap that was brought over from EQ1 needs to stay in EQ1
Im generous to my fellow players. Normally Im, lets say pretty well to do, so I go with a "pass on all" deal. Only time I break it is if someones a tool and wants to take everything for himself, in which case I try to win the items to give to the people who needed it.
"Need before greed" is a good idea, you just have to take someones word for it whether they need the item or not. Its a risk but unless its a highly valuable item it shouldnt be to big of a deal. I wouldnt force the issue though, if they dont like the idea I just go with thiers, no sense in causing group discention over it.
NBG came from other places other then just EQ1. Its more of someones ethics and morals then a rule in the game. Some would rather that loot goes to the people who need it instead of to people who dont. Heh, Ive practiced it for ages. Me and my friends implemented it into our D&D games when we were younger (still stands in it too with us).
Edited, Fri Dec 10 07:42:53 2004 by WasteOfSpace
"Need before greed" is a good idea, you just have to take someones word for it whether they need the item or not. Its a risk but unless its a highly valuable item it shouldnt be to big of a deal. I wouldnt force the issue though, if they dont like the idea I just go with thiers, no sense in causing group discention over it.
NBG came from other places other then just EQ1. Its more of someones ethics and morals then a rule in the game. Some would rather that loot goes to the people who need it instead of to people who dont. Heh, Ive practiced it for ages. Me and my friends implemented it into our D&D games when we were younger (still stands in it too with us).
Edited, Fri Dec 10 07:42:53 2004 by WasteOfSpace
I think that what has always worked for me is:
There is only one Master Looter.
The Leader whom called the group together determines loot rules and if you don't like them - do not join the group.
The leader should tell everyone BEFORE commencing combat and therefore looting - What the loot rules are and finally
The leader determines in a NbG setup whom gets the items -
Usually if someone says they need - they link the item they are junking and HOPEFULLY are willing to pass their old item to another that might need it in the group.
As to random . . . that works fine on vendor junk but I have a bit of a problem with it regarding good equipment, books etc. Although most times - I will agree to it in order to be grouped.
Makes you get to know those folks that call for groups - and the ones that pass loot to their friends vs being fair about it - well it will take some time but they will find themselves without groups to control.
Mooska, Barbarian Crusader
Antonia Bayle
There is only one Master Looter.
The Leader whom called the group together determines loot rules and if you don't like them - do not join the group.
The leader should tell everyone BEFORE commencing combat and therefore looting - What the loot rules are and finally
The leader determines in a NbG setup whom gets the items -
Usually if someone says they need - they link the item they are junking and HOPEFULLY are willing to pass their old item to another that might need it in the group.
As to random . . . that works fine on vendor junk but I have a bit of a problem with it regarding good equipment, books etc. Although most times - I will agree to it in order to be grouped.
Makes you get to know those folks that call for groups - and the ones that pass loot to their friends vs being fair about it - well it will take some time but they will find themselves without groups to control.
Mooska, Barbarian Crusader
Antonia Bayle
Quote:
NBG came from other places other then just EQ1. Its more of someones ethics and morals then a rule in the game. Some would rather that loot goes to the people who need it instead of to people who dont. Heh, Ive practiced it for ages. Me and my friends implemented it into our D&D games when we were younger (still stands in it too with us).
That is the whole point - NBG works very well in groups of friends.
In fact I prefer to call it CAWU - Can and Will Use rather than NBG because both "Need" and "Greed" are emotive and subject to interpretation. CAWU is hard to misunderstand.
However it may not be the fairest way amongst strangers. If I joined a group of well-geared people wearing my IoR gear would that entitle me to all the drops? We all work for the reward I think it should be distributed evenly regardless of ability to use aboutr which we cannot really make judgements unless we know the people.
The key point was the one Faymn made only a post or two up. Agree the loot rules BEFORE you start. Tell new members BEFORE they join.
And as for
Quote:
There are rule to whether something is red or not. So once you learn those rules you can tell who in your group can use something.
Perhaps you could explain them?
I have a nice ring on three of my characters. For two it is red. It isn't Heavy, Light or any kind of armour. It looks like it's just waiting for the minimum magical affinity to be met. So should they not have been allowed to have it because it is red? Or perhaps it will never be other than red?
I doubt I would trust the word of a stranger telling me I could never use it when they may well have a vested interest.
Then there are the incurably misinformed. I remember in EQ a rogue rolling on a mana augment. When challenged he insisted that his weapons needed it to proc
. Wherever I go - there I am.
/agree on what Cobra says
1 - I find "lotto" is a great way of saving trouble
2 - with friends we always say "if ye need something, just shout". else, we lotto.
3 - in pickup groups, I always lotto, respectively I even ask the leader to switch on lotto.
4 - agree on the looting rules before ye start.
sometimes I only notice I won the lotto, when I am at the merchant sorting my inventory...
moral of the story? just relax, ey...
1 - I find "lotto" is a great way of saving trouble
2 - with friends we always say "if ye need something, just shout". else, we lotto.
3 - in pickup groups, I always lotto, respectively I even ask the leader to switch on lotto.
4 - agree on the looting rules before ye start.
sometimes I only notice I won the lotto, when I am at the merchant sorting my inventory...
moral of the story? just relax, ey...
Still a noob. :-P
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
I lot on everything just to be sure. If I get something that I can't use but someone else can AND that person asks for it, I will give it to them for free (or maybe just a prommise to do likewise for other people).
However, if no one says anything, I will usually keep whatever it is. This is mainly because I have no idea what other jobs need, so I'm relying on other people to speak up with honesty when they need something.
Speaking of greed, I partied with a crusader the other day who won the lotto for an adept 1 shaman spell (which I needed). Then, a few fights later, I won the lotto for an adept 1 crusader spell. I had no idea what the two spells were worth on the open market, but I thought that a reasonable thing to do was for us to trade the spells.
He refused, claiming that the shaman spell was worth more and offered me 4s for the crusader spell. I may be new, but even I know that 4s won't get you anything above aprentice 2. So we both got stuck with spells we couldn't use :-(
However, if no one says anything, I will usually keep whatever it is. This is mainly because I have no idea what other jobs need, so I'm relying on other people to speak up with honesty when they need something.
Speaking of greed, I partied with a crusader the other day who won the lotto for an adept 1 shaman spell (which I needed). Then, a few fights later, I won the lotto for an adept 1 crusader spell. I had no idea what the two spells were worth on the open market, but I thought that a reasonable thing to do was for us to trade the spells.
He refused, claiming that the shaman spell was worth more and offered me 4s for the crusader spell. I may be new, but even I know that 4s won't get you anything above aprentice 2. So we both got stuck with spells we couldn't use :-(
In my humble opinion, lotto is random, but hadly fai, consideing it takes into account nothing. Nothing in the way of who has been thee what amount of time, whos doing what, or particularly what individuals want or need.
If the loot was cycled between players, from a-z, at least it would have a semblance of fair.
More than I have been in a small or large group to see one person just happen to win the 2 most crucial lottos of the hour. And considering how often the make up of a group changes, or how long they last at all, it's a poor way of doling out loot.
But alas, I'm sure I'm in the minority on this one.
If the loot was cycled between players, from a-z, at least it would have a semblance of fair.
More than I have been in a small or large group to see one person just happen to win the 2 most crucial lottos of the hour. And considering how often the make up of a group changes, or how long they last at all, it's a poor way of doling out loot.
But alas, I'm sure I'm in the minority on this one.
Scholar
23 posts
Lotto is fair because you have an equal chance of getting something good. It doesn't mean that everyone will get the same number of drops every time, just that over the long haul it should even out. But no matter how you divide the loot up, it will NEVER EVER be equal unless the same exact items drop every time.
Equal and fair mean entirely different things. Lotto is fair, but not equal. Unless you play king solomon and cut everything into 6 even pieces, there's no way of getting an EQUAL distribution. Hell, one person could get all the drops and it would still be, by definition, fair, because your chances of winding up with every one of those drops was the same as the other guy's.
In any case, if you don't like Lotto, don't use it. It's not an absolute rule that you have to use it. There are all sorts of loot methods available to you. Just be sure that everyone in your group agrees to whatever rules you choose BEFORE something drops, or your group could wind up disintigrating right before your eyes. I've seen it happen.
What I've been doing is using lotto, and if someone ends up with something that someone else needs, they will either trade it for something they already got, or will trade it for an option on whatever that person wins next. It doesn't always work out, but I've managed to make pretty good trades when the group is in a good drop place (this evening in Stormhold we had tons of drops, and there was a lot of trading going on -- everyone, without exception, was happy with the results).
In any case, be careful about the language that you use -- fair and equal are not the same, so don't try to make them out like they are.
Equal and fair mean entirely different things. Lotto is fair, but not equal. Unless you play king solomon and cut everything into 6 even pieces, there's no way of getting an EQUAL distribution. Hell, one person could get all the drops and it would still be, by definition, fair, because your chances of winding up with every one of those drops was the same as the other guy's.
In any case, if you don't like Lotto, don't use it. It's not an absolute rule that you have to use it. There are all sorts of loot methods available to you. Just be sure that everyone in your group agrees to whatever rules you choose BEFORE something drops, or your group could wind up disintigrating right before your eyes. I've seen it happen.
What I've been doing is using lotto, and if someone ends up with something that someone else needs, they will either trade it for something they already got, or will trade it for an option on whatever that person wins next. It doesn't always work out, but I've managed to make pretty good trades when the group is in a good drop place (this evening in Stormhold we had tons of drops, and there was a lot of trading going on -- everyone, without exception, was happy with the results).
In any case, be careful about the language that you use -- fair and equal are not the same, so don't try to make them out like they are.
A group I was in recently used these rules.
1. Lotto
2. When you win a lotto, you are not allowed to lotto until everyone wins something. (Chest items only.)
3. If at any point you want something that someone else won, it's between you and the other person. It's not any business of the group.
It seemed to work ok.
1. Lotto
2. When you win a lotto, you are not allowed to lotto until everyone wins something. (Chest items only.)
3. If at any point you want something that someone else won, it's between you and the other person. It's not any business of the group.
It seemed to work ok.
that seems like a good idea Miravelle. i'll see how it works out next time when i group
We use NBG and if we find someone cheating we dont group with them again , their loss IMO. If something drops and a member of the group needs it we give it to them , if 2 or more folks need it they random for it and the winner takes it . I am lucky tho I am the only int caster in my group , so I seldom have to roll on spells , as we never add another chanter.
You can inspect people and they dont even know you are doing it /grin , I found this out one day when a member of the group kept saying they needed everything that dropped , when the second primary slot item dropped and they once again claimed they needed it ,I inspected them , they had better go figure =/ . People will try to cheat but it doesnt take long to figure out who they are and stay away from them .
My reg play group is only 4 char right now and we pick up the other 2 when needed , By doing things the way we do all 4 of us have what we need , extra money for buying stuffs , spells upgraded. Basically by working together to get ahead as a group all members get ahead so the team is strong . I dont think it would be much fun to play with folks with crappy gear or app1 or app 2 spells only , our group is strong cause each member is strong . Some days it seems we get all heavy gear so our tank/shammy make out like bandits while us casters walk away with sell loots only , but it evens out over time as some days it is all caster drops and out tanks are standing there with sell loots only ( we dont like sell loots , we like gear/spell upgrades LOL).
I know NBG doesnt work so well in a pick up situtation and when I am in a pick up group I follow the loot rules that group sets , if stuff I dont like happens I leave and remember that group leader to avoid in the future.
You can inspect people and they dont even know you are doing it /grin , I found this out one day when a member of the group kept saying they needed everything that dropped , when the second primary slot item dropped and they once again claimed they needed it ,I inspected them , they had better go figure =/ . People will try to cheat but it doesnt take long to figure out who they are and stay away from them .
My reg play group is only 4 char right now and we pick up the other 2 when needed , By doing things the way we do all 4 of us have what we need , extra money for buying stuffs , spells upgraded. Basically by working together to get ahead as a group all members get ahead so the team is strong . I dont think it would be much fun to play with folks with crappy gear or app1 or app 2 spells only , our group is strong cause each member is strong . Some days it seems we get all heavy gear so our tank/shammy make out like bandits while us casters walk away with sell loots only , but it evens out over time as some days it is all caster drops and out tanks are standing there with sell loots only ( we dont like sell loots , we like gear/spell upgrades LOL).
I know NBG doesnt work so well in a pick up situtation and when I am in a pick up group I follow the loot rules that group sets , if stuff I dont like happens I leave and remember that group leader to avoid in the future.
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