I see alot of casters slacking on melee..
My attack is up at 171 and all my crushing and piercing skills are maxed out.
I have had encounters were the melee of us casters actually was what made the diffrence between win and lose.
I make from 1/10 to 1/5 of my damage as a melee depending on luck and mob. And that while chaincasting nukes. If every caster in group did that, the dps would almost be as a group with 7 players..
Now to my question... Any higher lvl caster (25+) that have come to the conclusion that casters melee was good at lower lvls but is completly useless at higher lvls?
Also, at my lvl (19) I kick people from my group if they are slacking.. And I know other people gets pissed over this aswell so people, dont slack!
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Casters meleeFollow
Not sure how this game will progress and how class rolls will work later on. Usually in most MMOs casters can get away with melee while casting, but later on does not work, mostly because the melee damage just isnt worth the effort.
If a caster is meleeing and chain nuking, as long as mob doesnt start ping-ponging then im fine with that, but as soon as the caster starts yanking aggro consistantly then we have a problem.
If a caster is meleeing and chain nuking, as long as mob doesnt start ping-ponging then im fine with that, but as soon as the caster starts yanking aggro consistantly then we have a problem.
True.. But in this game it seems impossible to take agro from tank for wizards (if your on the right mob and tank aint slacking).. healers seem to be the only class able to steal agro.
And if your doing melee it means your close to mob so if you actually gets agro tank can get it back pretty fast. Its worse if you get agro from far away and tank has to run after it.
If I get agro I can take it without any problems for a decent amount of time.. Not like in EQ1.. mob on me --> dead.. :p
This might change later in game tho.. And I hope it does cause atm there is little thinking in EQ2 as a wiz..
Assist -> chainnuke and autoattack
Hardly have to bother about mana/power consumption nor agro control.. :/
And if your doing melee it means your close to mob so if you actually gets agro tank can get it back pretty fast. Its worse if you get agro from far away and tank has to run after it.
If I get agro I can take it without any problems for a decent amount of time.. Not like in EQ1.. mob on me --> dead.. :p
This might change later in game tho.. And I hope it does cause atm there is little thinking in EQ2 as a wiz..
Assist -> chainnuke and autoattack
Hardly have to bother about mana/power consumption nor agro control.. :/
Wel lI ll give you my tw ocopper - I am a cleric and personally dont like when casters try to melee, honestly they do lil dmg and they get hit once in a while. In a long run - they just waste healers mana...
you havent grouped with me. ;)
I stay behind and dont get agro. I use canni when I see everyone has lop except healer. She gets to heal me np.
A good player knows when to do what.
What you are saying means to me one of three things:
1. You have had a bad experience with people who dont know how to play
2. Your a slacker and dont care to do anything, especially not change target. This is the way of many clerics. Have been like that in EQ1 and EQ2. Many clerics are spoiled cause they allways get groups etc. Hope this change in EQ2. Not to many EQ1 clerics I cared much for, they were there cause I needed them not cause I liked them.
3. Your new to EQ2 and havent realized what is doable/good yet.
I stay behind and dont get agro. I use canni when I see everyone has lop except healer. She gets to heal me np.
A good player knows when to do what.
What you are saying means to me one of three things:
1. You have had a bad experience with people who dont know how to play
2. Your a slacker and dont care to do anything, especially not change target. This is the way of many clerics. Have been like that in EQ1 and EQ2. Many clerics are spoiled cause they allways get groups etc. Hope this change in EQ2. Not to many EQ1 clerics I cared much for, they were there cause I needed them not cause I liked them.
3. Your new to EQ2 and havent realized what is doable/good yet.
nukers doing melee is alright at the lower lvls from what ive seen so far cause every little bit of damage helps. but when i play my healer your not high priority on my list for heals. i would rather keep the tank alive since they are made to take damage.
Im not supposed to be high priority either. Therefor its important to know when to use canni, when to risk overnuking etc.
I rarly die.
I rarly die.
Caster melee is really dependant on situation and party dynamics.
A few questions to help determine if you (as the caster) should melee in your party:
1) Are you getting aggro with the extra damage or are you already getting aggro with your normal damage/heals/mezzes or whatever?
2) Is your damage output too low to make it worthwhile vs the extra effort or slower response time?
3) Is the combat already hectic enough that the addition of extra people in the fray would make the rest of the party's job more difficult?
4) Do any of the mobs use area attacks?
5) Does entering in melee combat make it prohibitively difficult for you to accomplish your primary party goal?
If the answer to all of these questions is no, you should be in melee combat.
As a side note, some people can only focus on one thing at a time and may have difficulty engaging in melee combat and performing their normal party functions, particularly if it involves specific targets other than MA mob(healing, mezzing, debuffing, etc). So please don't assume that a caster that isn't in melee combat is 'slacking'. As for me? I'm usually found right up next to the tank that I'm healing.
A few questions to help determine if you (as the caster) should melee in your party:
1) Are you getting aggro with the extra damage or are you already getting aggro with your normal damage/heals/mezzes or whatever?
2) Is your damage output too low to make it worthwhile vs the extra effort or slower response time?
3) Is the combat already hectic enough that the addition of extra people in the fray would make the rest of the party's job more difficult?
4) Do any of the mobs use area attacks?
5) Does entering in melee combat make it prohibitively difficult for you to accomplish your primary party goal?
If the answer to all of these questions is no, you should be in melee combat.
As a side note, some people can only focus on one thing at a time and may have difficulty engaging in melee combat and performing their normal party functions, particularly if it involves specific targets other than MA mob(healing, mezzing, debuffing, etc). So please don't assume that a caster that isn't in melee combat is 'slacking'. As for me? I'm usually found right up next to the tank that I'm healing.
I saw a Iksar Necro doing some nice damage last night.
Level 20 Templar here, and in a full set of brand-spankin' new vanguard armor, I can see no reason to not melee. I target the tank (that auto-assist is freaking GLORIOUS), and concetrate on healing, but getting a couple hits in between casts is not a bad thing. Moreover, I need to be close anyway for debuffs on the mobs, so why not do a little damage on the side? My hits are generally around half as powerful as the melees' hits, which means that for every two hits I get in, it's as if the melee got an extra hit in. Because I'm fortunate enough to be able to wear heavy armor, if I ever do steal aggro (which would never be from melee damage, just heavy healing), I can take a hit or two (my AC is often relatively close to that of a figher a couple levels below me). Anyway, just my experience. It doesn't take away from casting, it's automatic - just hit your melee button then concentrate on casting, your weaker hits are unlikely to steal aggro, and every little bit helps. Can't think of a good reason not to melee.
Just wait till the higher lvl mobs start doing continuous AEO attacks. Melee caster's will be hurtin.
Quote:
Just wait till the higher lvl mobs start doing continuous AEO attacks. Melee caster's will be hurtin.
That is reason in itself not to melee as a caster later in levels, I agree with most here, in the beginning it's ok.
Casters can melee, but they must be careful of aoe or cone attacks.
I was noticing as a Brigand the cone of damage from the Giant Wretches' barrage actually extends a little ways back from the center of the mob. Even though I was able to backstab (back only), I got hit by a barrage when it was focusing on the tank in front of it [who was also hit by the barrage]. So if casters are going to melee, they should definitely do it from the side and relatively distant from the mob itself to mitigate the liklihood of being indirectly damaged.
I was noticing as a Brigand the cone of damage from the Giant Wretches' barrage actually extends a little ways back from the center of the mob. Even though I was able to backstab (back only), I got hit by a barrage when it was focusing on the tank in front of it [who was also hit by the barrage]. So if casters are going to melee, they should definitely do it from the side and relatively distant from the mob itself to mitigate the liklihood of being indirectly damaged.
Ok, you know.... after I cast my buffs, get my /assist on my main tank and make sure he's all set....damn straight I run up and take out my weapons and pitifully whack at that mob. I can heal and melee at the same time, not that hard. Maybe I'm multi-talented, but after playing PLD in FFXI for a long time... you get good at multi-tasking.
This is NOT FFXI. You damned casters get up there and smack that mob, especially if you run out of MP, no you won't do much damage, but jeez. It's not like you're going to take hate from the tank, and it will help even a little.
Now if you truly find you can't heal or cast and melee at the same time, then yeah...stand back and do your thing so no one else in the party risks dying. As a Cleric I'm not so frail I can't take a few hits for whatever reason. Believe me. And I have enough "group heal buffs" for AOE's too.
This is not FFXI. You're not the BLM that needs to stand 2 miles away and hide behind the corner shivering in fear if you get hit two or three times. Trust me, it'll be ok if you take out your hammer or staff and help the tank. At least...if you're in my group it'll be ok.
This is NOT FFXI. You damned casters get up there and smack that mob, especially if you run out of MP, no you won't do much damage, but jeez. It's not like you're going to take hate from the tank, and it will help even a little.
Now if you truly find you can't heal or cast and melee at the same time, then yeah...stand back and do your thing so no one else in the party risks dying. As a Cleric I'm not so frail I can't take a few hits for whatever reason. Believe me. And I have enough "group heal buffs" for AOE's too.
This is not FFXI. You're not the BLM that needs to stand 2 miles away and hide behind the corner shivering in fear if you get hit two or three times. Trust me, it'll be ok if you take out your hammer or staff and help the tank. At least...if you're in my group it'll be ok.
3 posts
I agree completely with the original post. Up through level 20, it seems like there is absolutely no reason why a caster should not get in some wimpy attacks. Plus, if your group is organized and doing a good job, there is down time while completing Heroic Ops. I was in a group with a Wizard just mashing his nukes, out of mana quickly, and then just stood there. Meanwhile if you pace yourself, complete the HOs, whack in-between heals and during HOs... You are maximizing your effectiveness. And I bet we have all been in close battles where you win, but it takes a while. All those hits add up, and I believe it decreases downtime. I have personally been in a battle where I killed a Kodiak with two dagger hits just after the tank died... and we had a wizard type who only cast and did not attack with melee weapons. The tank would have lived if he had gotten in a few staff hits.
If a caster is pulling aggro, its because of multiple nukes, or completing HO's, not cause they stab the enemy with their dagger for 7pts.
It could change at higher levels -- probably will, and any posts from higher levels where this changes are welcome. I am sure that AOEs will change it, I just haven't seen it yet.
Xephus
If a caster is pulling aggro, its because of multiple nukes, or completing HO's, not cause they stab the enemy with their dagger for 7pts.
It could change at higher levels -- probably will, and any posts from higher levels where this changes are welcome. I am sure that AOEs will change it, I just haven't seen it yet.
Xephus
The great thing about EQII is that you no longer have to target the tank to heal. I love it! I also keep hitting the mob while I target someone else, other than the main tank, to heal.
The targeting in this game is so awesome and I don't know why no one thought of it before. If I cast a beneficial spell (Regrowth) on my targeted enemy (a skeleton I have locked) it doesn't cast on the enemy but on what the enemy is targeting... which is me =D
The same goes for group encounters. Whatever the mob is targeting will receive my beneficial spell so I never have to target the tank. Now, if someone else steals aggro then I can easily start healing them without having to do a thing! I just keep attacking the mob. For AOE attacks that require me to target someone other than the mobs target, my attacks will continue to rain down on the mob I was attacking before targeting my group mate.
I so enjoy this game as a Fury. The ease of healing, the soloing, the quests, the soloing of quests. EQII is so much fun!
The targeting in this game is so awesome and I don't know why no one thought of it before. If I cast a beneficial spell (Regrowth) on my targeted enemy (a skeleton I have locked) it doesn't cast on the enemy but on what the enemy is targeting... which is me =D
The same goes for group encounters. Whatever the mob is targeting will receive my beneficial spell so I never have to target the tank. Now, if someone else steals aggro then I can easily start healing them without having to do a thing! I just keep attacking the mob. For AOE attacks that require me to target someone other than the mobs target, my attacks will continue to rain down on the mob I was attacking before targeting my group mate.
I so enjoy this game as a Fury. The ease of healing, the soloing, the quests, the soloing of quests. EQII is so much fun!
Personally I wouldn't group for long with anyone who thought a group was "mine" and felt they could kick slackers.
Melee classes concentrate on whacking, and healers on who needs what, etc. Generally both do well and it's understood they are probably not gonna contribute fully out of thier role.
I would appreciate someone who wasn't melee due to being careful. Haven't we all seen groups where someone or all died because the healer was tanking or having to waste power on a sorc who wanted to tank?
Usually a hint or suggestion would do, but how can we fault someone for thier role? much less kicking them.
Melee classes concentrate on whacking, and healers on who needs what, etc. Generally both do well and it's understood they are probably not gonna contribute fully out of thier role.
I would appreciate someone who wasn't melee due to being careful. Haven't we all seen groups where someone or all died because the healer was tanking or having to waste power on a sorc who wanted to tank?
Usually a hint or suggestion would do, but how can we fault someone for thier role? much less kicking them.
Not in this game I haven't seen that.
Only time someone died in party was a) from a bad link, or b) once I lagged out so bad I couldn't move and they died
Only time someone died in party was a) from a bad link, or b) once I lagged out so bad I couldn't move and they died
12 posts
I can say with some exp in EQ1, played had a 63 Wizard there, that when I was but a young finger waver thwaking the mob with my staff was acceptable.
But as I grew in exp mobs starting aoe'ing and all casters should be as far away as possible.
I am sure it will be much the same here, like other people stated, after a certain point this wont be an option.
Now, some one stated that they consider casters who don't melee slackers. The amount of damage that a mage is going to contribute in melee is very small. First off, I am a 12 sorcerer and the biggest hit I have made melee is like 6.
Now that wouldn't be bad if it were a constant 6, but
a. My weapon is a lot slower the the tanks
b. When I am casting I can't melee
c. I am gonna miss a lot more
All this adds up to maybe 1 hit for every 5 to 6 of a tank.
Is this worth it in a group, don't think so.
However, it is good to keep the defense maxed.
You as a caster maybe called upon to perform crowd control.
And the better your defense, the better chance you have that you will be able to root a mob that is beating on youl.
Nimmdaar
12 Sorcerer
13 Scholar
But as I grew in exp mobs starting aoe'ing and all casters should be as far away as possible.
I am sure it will be much the same here, like other people stated, after a certain point this wont be an option.
Now, some one stated that they consider casters who don't melee slackers. The amount of damage that a mage is going to contribute in melee is very small. First off, I am a 12 sorcerer and the biggest hit I have made melee is like 6.
Now that wouldn't be bad if it were a constant 6, but
a. My weapon is a lot slower the the tanks
b. When I am casting I can't melee
c. I am gonna miss a lot more
All this adds up to maybe 1 hit for every 5 to 6 of a tank.
Is this worth it in a group, don't think so.
However, it is good to keep the defense maxed.
You as a caster maybe called upon to perform crowd control.
And the better your defense, the better chance you have that you will be able to root a mob that is beating on youl.
Nimmdaar
12 Sorcerer
13 Scholar
Yes, it all comes back to the AOE, it seems.
Well, certainly if the mages later prove to be that frail...make them stand back against certain AOE mobs. Otherwise, without AOE mobs... I'm not going to gripe if they pull the staff out.
I just found out as an Inquisitor I can wear heavy armor, and some of it has some nice stats for my job. I picked some up last night (am broke now) and my AC is 734. I think I can take a hit or 2 if there's an AOE, unless it's like armageddon destruction OMFGBBQ, in which case we're all screwed anyway.
Guess where I'll be?
Edited, Fri Dec 3 16:54:41 2004 by Ivven
Well, certainly if the mages later prove to be that frail...make them stand back against certain AOE mobs. Otherwise, without AOE mobs... I'm not going to gripe if they pull the staff out.
I just found out as an Inquisitor I can wear heavy armor, and some of it has some nice stats for my job. I picked some up last night (am broke now) and my AC is 734. I think I can take a hit or 2 if there's an AOE, unless it's like armageddon destruction OMFGBBQ, in which case we're all screwed anyway.
Guess where I'll be?
Edited, Fri Dec 3 16:54:41 2004 by Ivven
26 posts
"3. Your new to EQ2 and havent realized what is doable/good yet."
As are you, friend =D EQ 2 has been out a whopping 3.5 weeks...yes, maybe you were in beta, but believe me, there isn't a one of us that has even scratched the surface as to content yet.
Edited, Sat Dec 4 16:35:44 2004 by TDKSOREAL
As are you, friend =D EQ 2 has been out a whopping 3.5 weeks...yes, maybe you were in beta, but believe me, there isn't a one of us that has even scratched the surface as to content yet.
Edited, Sat Dec 4 16:35:44 2004 by TDKSOREAL
Scholar
34 posts
It has absolutely nothing at all to do with yanking Agro, that's silly, i can't do it if i throw every single healing spell that i have out there. It's the aoe damage... i'm not that high a level (15) but we was spankin some dervs the other day, and the only time we got into trouble was when nobody noticed that one of the mobs in a group was aoeing (caster or somethin) I scrambled and threw out heals left and right, but the bastards took the tank down... Now, i'm still learning as a cleric, but if i didn't have to worry about casters in the thick of it (they go down FAST) then it would make my life less stressful : )
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